This is just not how it works - I know this a very strong belief for some veteran players - old school mechanics + new graphics = GUARANTEED success.
You keep omitting stuff. Old School Mechanics + New Graphics + Modern Standards + $50 Million That's what I said. We've been discussing this stuff for months and you keep ignoring the most important part of my argument M-O-D-E-R-N--S-T-A-N-D-A-R-D-S. Without it we just have an Old game with slightly better graphics like SotA which is not what we Veteran are asking for.
You compared 4 modern MMOs with a relative high budget with a 13 years old game with low budget claiming that those games would wipe the floor with EQ. No shit Sherlock.
I just made the comparison more fair. And although as you rightly said, there is no 100% guarantee of success, an Old School MMO made with those attributes could easily compete with those modern games you mentioned. I also want to point out in my previous post I put the emphases on Longevity and Player Retention rather than overall number of players, as I believe that's where Old School MMOs really shine.
Most original EQ players have lamented the path MMOs have taken the past 15 years.
I'm in the opposite camp, I think they've gotten better.
They have gotten A LOT better - the problem is after 17+ years of MMOs many people have gotten jaded
Imagine taking ESO, BDO, GW2, AA - pick any game today and transport it magically back in time to 1999 just like it is today (assume PCs could play it the way they can today for the sake of argument).
People would be abso-fucking-lutely floored.
Absolutely floored by the cash shop cancer you mean.
This is just not how it works - I know this a very strong belief for some veteran players - old school mechanics + new graphics = GUARANTEED success.
You keep omitting stuff. Old School Mechanics + New Graphics + Modern Standards + $50 Million That's what I said. We've been discussing this stuff for months and you keep ignoring the most important part of my argument M-O-D-E-R-N--S-T-A-N-D-A-R-D-S. Without it we just have an Old game with slightly better graphics like SotA which is not what we Veteran are asking for.
You compared 4 modern MMOs with a relative high budget with a 13 years old game with low budget claiming that those games would wipe the floor with EQ. No shit Sherlock.
I just made the comparison more fair. And although as you rightly said, there is no 100% guarantee of success, an Old School MMO made with those attributes could easily compete with those modern games you mentioned. I also want to point out in my previous post I put the emphases on Longevity and Player Retention rather than overall number of players, as I believe that's where Old School MMOs really shine.
Fair enough.
Old school MMOs did shine in longevity because that was 17 years ago, before massive saturation of MMO space.
I think that today it is way more difficult to achieve the same, as the online entertainment (not only games) has exploded.
The last sentence is really why mmorpgs are struggling with retention. They aren't the only show in town anymore.
People don't seem to be willing to devote thousands of hours and hundreds of dollars to a single game. Especially when nearly every other game out there has some type of an online component.
If you were to release old school EQ with modern day graphics and budget, the game would most likely fail hard. Forced grouping, hard death penalties, rare boss spawns that are one and done, etc., are not anything that most seem to be interested in now.
Many people seem to forget that the mmorpg market didn't shift from UO/EQ to ESO/BDO because the developers wanted to do it. They simply followed what the money told them to do.
Mmorpg's became too much of a structured clinical process of game design. I think this happened most likely due to wow. Wow created the decline of creative freedom for game developers in the mmorpg realm... Due to it's immense success, it forces development strategy to adhere to the book.
I think this will change however and eventually we will get another good AAA mmorpg or some other good popular western mmorpg's. It has just taken a very long time to break the mold, for developers to take a leap of faith and focus more on creative direction.
Started playing mmorpg's in 1996 and have been hooked ever since. It began with Kingdom of Drakkar, Ultima Online, Everquest, DAoC, WoW...
Since there are more MMO's, and more people playing MMO's, than ever, how can they be in decline?
Another interesting thing to note here is that we had a hand-full of MMO's back in 2003 sharing 4-5m subscriptions. While we might have 4 times the subscribers today, we also have a much greater multiplication of games to play. If you'd put that graph next to this one you'd see it's out of proportion. If these new games were as good, or even better, than the old ones, surely the subscriptions would increase more in line to match the amount of games available?
Since there are more MMO's, and more people playing MMO's, than ever, how can they be in decline?
Another interesting thing to note here is that we had a hand-full of MMO's back in 2003 sharing 4-5m subscriptions. While we might have 4 times the subscribers today, we also have a much greater multiplication of games to play. If you'd put that graph next to this one you'd see it's out of proportion. If these new games were as good, or even better, than the old ones, surely the subscriptions would increase more in line to match the amount of games available?
Does this include everybody? All the people playing MUDs? Obscure MMO hubs like Byond? Amateur free open source MMO's like Daimonin? How do they estimate? Emulators, like Project 1999, UO Second Age or Uthgard? There're literally many thousands of people on EQ, UO and DAOC emulated servers. And what about Minecraft servers or Wurm Unlimited servers?
Otherwise you might be right. The market might be saturated. This is why I believe any new MMO has to be original or offer something others don't. It has to stand out from the crowd. Just copying the other popular MMO's, as has been normal procedure, won't work. Special effort has to be given to gaining attention.
As for EQ, I've already stated somewhat what I think. I think as new MMO's entered the market, EQ's growth rate increasingly fell. Additionally, aging software and prolonged mudflation weighed it down. Disinterest also increases because players, despite nostalgia or their loyalties, grow bored playing the same MMO for years. They drift to playing other MMO's. Eventually it was losing subs until it fell to around 100k active users and below. This fate ultimately will plague all MMO's.
Do I think if old Everquest was given new graphics and new software it'd shine today? No. The first reason is market saturation. It'd be a lot harder to get those 400k+ active subs today because many of htem are presently entrenched in other games or MMO's. The second reason is changes in player expectations. More players expect instances, solo to max, no downtime or death penalty, plentiful quality quests, fast travel, radar, GPS maps, instagroups, dungeon finders and anti-train aggro. So in reality a revamped Everquest with its old mechanics and style would probably only get 10k or at most 100k active subs. If it by chance was upwards of 100k, an even newer MMO would release almost immediately to compete. Making an MMO is easier today.
IF whoever makes a revamped Everquest accounts for this and is ok with a small audience in the neighborhood of 10k to 100k, it might work. In all likelihood the audience might be even smaller, sub-10k. Chances are whoever undertakes this mission would innovate on the old Everquest, not just copy it into a new software engine. They'd do something others aren't doing and what big MMO's CAN'T do.
Personally that's what appeals to me. Do what the big ones can't. Be niche. Be fierce. Be unpopular. Know your competition. Be loyal. Treat your players respectfully. Forge a tolerant environment, and a family to last for years.
Since there are more MMO's, and more people playing MMO's, than ever, how can they be in decline?
Another interesting thing to note here is that we had a hand-full of MMO's back in 2003 sharing 4-5m subscriptions. While we might have 4 times the subscribers today, we also have a much greater multiplication of games to play. If you'd put that graph next to this one you'd see it's out of proportion. If these new games were as good, or even better, than the old ones, surely the subscriptions would increase more in line to match the amount of games available?
Does this include everybody? All the people playing MUDs? Obscure MMO hubs like Byond? Amateur free open source MMO's like Daimonin? How do they estimate? Emulators, like Project 1999, UO Second Age or Uthgard? There're literally many thousands of people on EQ, UO and DAOC emulated servers. And what about Minecraft servers or Wurm Unlimited servers?
Otherwise you might be right. The market might be saturated. This is why I believe any new MMO has to be original or offer something others don't. It has to stand out from the crowd. Just copying the other popular MMO's, as has been normal procedure, won't work. Special effort has to be given to gaining attention.
As for EQ, I've already stated somewhat what I think. I think as new MMO's entered the market, EQ's growth rate increasingly fell. Additionally, aging software and prolonged mudflation weighed it down. Disinterest also increases because players, despite nostalgia or their loyalties, grow bored playing the same MMO for years. They drift to playing other MMO's. Eventually it was losing subs until it fell to around 100k active users and below. This fate ultimately will plague all MMO's.
Do I think if old Everquest was given new graphics and new software it'd shine today? No. The first reason is market saturation. It'd be a lot harder to get those 400k+ active subs today because many of htem are presently entrenched in other games or MMO's. The second reason is changes in player expectations. More players expect instances, solo to max, no downtime or death penalty, plentiful quality quests, fast travel, radar, GPS maps, instagroups, dungeon finders and anti-train aggro. So in reality a revamped Everquest with its old mechanics and style would probably only get 10k or at most 100k active subs. If it by chance was upwards of 100k, an even newer MMO would release almost immediately to compete. Making an MMO is easier today.
IF whoever makes a revamped Everquest accounts for this and is ok with a small audience in the neighborhood of 10k to 100k, it might work. In all likelihood the audience might be even smaller, sub-10k. Chances are whoever undertakes this mission would innovate on the old Everquest, not just copy it into a new software engine. They'd do something others aren't doing and what big MMO's CAN'T do.
Personally that's what appeals to me. Do what the big ones can't. Be niche. Be fierce. Be unpopular. Know your competition. Be loyal. Treat your players respectfully. Forge a tolerant environment, and a family to last for years.
Several forum posters have been warning of this possibility for quite some time. The EQ1 market segment isn't around anymore. It fragmented, with players going to many different titles. There isn't even a singular place where this group of people went to, where they can be easily targeted and recaptured. The market changed and the players changed.
About the only thing that is certain is attempting to define, measure, or question this mythical EQ1 market is likely to draw attacks and derision from the pro-Pantheon crowd. Developers, look to the past in order to build on the shoulders of giants; don't just regurgitate the past.
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
To identify the problem first. What is the problem?
- Core game play and mmorpg design has drastically changed so that the first generations no longer effectively exist.
Why has this happened?
- Adjusting to changing business models by willingly sacrificing original game concept.
EQ (and others) had a singular design philosophy. They wanted to build a fantasy world and slap in as many players as technology of the time allowed. How to play? Just pay some cash monthly and you gain access to ALL content.
There was no meta marketing ... just access to the purity of product creation.
Now add some years and data collection begins (the porn of business number crunchers). From that point on big business does what it always does. It looks to minimize employee man hours and maximize value of minimized content creation. It has evolved into the cesspool mmo landscape we see today.
Wow came later and is the shining example of how a game is completely re-engineered to adapt to meta marketing. It now shares the same client base of Blizzard's other products and unified business model. It has never been about solving the short comings of the early gen mmorpg designs while maintaining concept but entirely about maximizing profits across a unified business model.
A species cannot evolve if purposely killed by a mass extinction event. Wow did not evolve as the mmorpg it was originally designed as. It was succeeded by replicants Bladerunner-style. EQ simply was made extinct.
Here's hoping indie, genetic engineering game development brings it back to life.
There's a lot of mentioning of market saturation and upgrading graphics and I understand all that, but for me it all boils down to essentially one thing...the addictive factor. Will I become addicted to the game? That's really all I care about. And I don't think the formula for addiction is all that complicated. It requires three things (from my perspective) - immersion, immersion and immersion.
When I say I want to become addicted to an MMO, I don't say this lightly. When I first played EQ, I felt like I had been transported into that world. I want to experience that feeling again or I'm probably going to lose interest in any game that falls short of that. However, at the same time, there is also a great danger to achieving that level of immersion, and that is...addiction.
Basically, I want a world that makes me forget about how much the real world sucks, but if that happens, then I run the risk of not wanting to leave it. That's the conundrum. People talk about not having enough time to play MMOs the way they used to. The fact is, I really didn't have enough time to play EQ when I was playing it. But it made me play it (you know what I'm talking about you Evercrack players).
I want that feeling again, but I'm also worried about what might happen to my life if a game like that comes around again.
Zindaihas, players get addicted to WoW and everything else, including TV and microwave foodstuff. Immersion is different for different folks. I can pick up a beer and don't get addicted. But coffee? Coffee is another beast.
At the height of his addiction Ryan van Cleave had little time for his real life. World of Warcraft, a video game, had crowded out everything: his wife and children, his job as a university English professor.
Before classes, or late at night while his family slept, he would
squeeze in time at the computer. He would often eat meals at the
computer – microwave burritos, energy drinks, foods that required only
one hand, leaving the other free to work the keyboard and mouse.
Van Cleave and others insist video game addiction is similar to gambling
addiction. By the time his second baby was born in 2007, Van Cleave was
playing for 60 hours a week. A few months later, his employers did not
renew his contract and said he would not achieve tenure. He was hired
for a one-year fellowship at George Washington University, teaching one
class, but that meant he had more time for gaming while the stress of
finding a full-time job ratcheted up.
That night marked the first time Van Cleave realised he had a problem.
The self-examination pulled him back from the bridge railing. He went
home and deleted the game from his computer. For the next week his
stomach and head hurt and he was drenched in sweat – like an addict
withdrawing from drugs.
Decided to have som fun with that data and the games list here on MMORPG.com. Here are the results. It's crude data of course, so take it as it is. I only used games labeled as MMORPG and that had a release date.
November 23, 2004 was the begining of the end. Although some may argue January 15, 2007.
WoW was the best MMORPG throughout the BC expansion, it started declining with WOTLK, though this was still a pretty decent expansion (some say the best, but I disagree). It all went tits up with Cataclysm, December 2010 that's when WoW died, IMO.
But to me the end of MMORPGs as we knew it happened in September 18, 2008. That was a sad day, because it started the era of WoW clones.
True but when BC greens being better than T3, that was the beginning. Then the emergence of WoW clones etc that came up. Still though, keying for kara, aren't going to get those days back. Could even say about half way through wrath when the beginning of easy mode started. Still though if 3 people said the release of wow, the release of bc or halfway through wrath they'd be correct. A combination of MMORPGs being mainstreamed and f2p becoming more common in the west killed the genre.
Zindaihas, players get addicted to WoW and everything else, including TV and microwave foodstuff.
Do they?!?!
Microwaves? Does that surprise you?
It's facetious anyway. No harm meant. Get off my case.
Don't be dishonest, the original sentence I quoted said "Everyone is addicted to c..k sucking", before you edited it, nothing to do with microwave food.
I am sure some people is addicted to c..k sucking, not sure everyone is though...
I wasn't actually commenting on the action itself. If you'd used "Someone" instead of "Everyone" it would have been actually funny in the context even if just borderline acceptable for this Forum.
Oh, what a surprise. Didn't check any MMO forum for a while and suddenly the first thing I see... there is it again, the nostalgia, rose-tinted glasses thread.
Yes, it was better back them, but not due to mechanics, not due to a perceived "difficulty", it was better because we were new and lacked information. If young players were forced to play EQ, Ragnarok Online, vanilla WoW or whatever, they would not have the same struggle. They would datamine, they would make spreadsheets with optimal routes week 2 on Reddit. Old games are not as hard as some of you like to fantasize. Raids being an exception, but you can find challenging raids nowadays anyway.
I never root for a game's failure, but I'm really curious to see how the community will react to Pantheon once the nostalgia glasses fall. I will probably play it, it looks interesting, but no, it won't reach the outrageous expectations, it won't teleport you back in time.
While oldschool times were cool, I still can enjoy MMOs, in some aspects more than before. Seems like this is more of a personal problem than a conspiracy theory that all MMO devs are trying to destroy your experience.
Oh, what a surprise. Didn't check any MMO forum for a while and suddenly the first thing I see... there is it again, the nostalgia, rose-tinted glasses thread.
Yes, it was better back them, but not due to mechanics, not due to a perceived "difficulty", it was better because we were new and lacked information. If young players were forced to play EQ, Ragnarok Online, vanilla WoW or whatever, they would not have the same struggle. They would datamine.
You can tell you don't follow this Forum often, as everything you said has been debunked extensively already.
Yes it is about Mechanics actually. Play a WoW Vanilla Dungeon (in any Private Server) and then play the same Dungeon on a Live Server, then you come back and tell me that's the same mechanics. Back then, you needed good group coordination to actually complete a Dungeon, as the most difficult part was actually getting through all the Trash Mobs which were much more difficult than today and a challenge on themselves, unlike today where they are just cannon fodder for L33t Kidz.
It's got nothing to do with Data Mining, which was already a big thing in Allakhazam.com in 2002, now called ZAM.com. Some people would not even reach the BOSS as they would wipe from Trash Mobs, so BOSS tactics from ZAM.com were totally irrelevant for the most part.
The only thing we can still argue about is if those old mechanics are still relevant today or they are outdated. I think it is a type of game that some people still like as it take more effort and group coordination than current MMORPGs. Some other disagree, and that's ok.
But please retire this "Rose Tinted Glasses" bullshit, it's just terribly patronizing.
Yes it is about Mechanics actually. Play a WoW Vanilla Dungeon (in any Private Server) and then play the same Dungeon on a Live Server, then you come back and tell me that's the same mechanics. Back then, you needed good group coordination to actually complete a Dungeon, as the most difficult part was actually getting through all the Trash Mobs which were much more difficult than today and a challenge on themselves, unlike today where they are just cannon fodder for L33t Kidz.
It's got nothing to do with Data Mining, which was already a big thing in Allakhazam.com in 2002, now called ZAM.com. Some people would not even reach the BOSS as they would wipe from Trash Mobs, so BOSS tactics from ZAM.com were totally irrelevant for the most part.
The only thing we can still argue about is if those old mechanics are still relevant today or they are outdated. I think it is a type of game that some people still like as it take more effort and group coordination than current MMORPGs. Some other disagree, and that's ok.
But please retire this "Rose Tinted Glasses" bullshit, it's just terribly patronizing.
I never said vanilla WoW and live have the same dungeon mechanics or numbers. I don't know from where did you get that. It was a bit more challenging? I guess. Good players nowadays will *NOT* have any problems with this kind of mechanics. Sorry but CC at the correct time, mana management, tank swap, single pulls, patrol mobs, whatever is not a challenge in a dungeon. Wildstar veteran dungeons was more challenging than vanilla WoW dungeons and still was pretty clearable for decent players.
I don't know anyone who I consider good at MMOs that would have problems with WoW vanilla dungeons. If someone is struggling with it in a private server, they should reevaluate their skill. A 13 year old League of Legends player would be able to pull off this kind of mechanics easily given enough information, which they would find on Reddit week 1, since most new players would check it for info.
Datamining existed before, yes, but the truth is that most people who started playing MMOs didn't give a damn about it or any scattered forum guides at the time (which could be found at guild forums too). Nowadays it would be pinned in popular social media like Reddit. Information will be available fairly quickly for any new game, it will happen with Pantheon too. People will point these guides to new people. Furthermore most guides back then were not that great, nowadays people have way more experience for creating those guides and they will be more accurate.
Anyway, datamining is the less threatening thing to the nostalgic MMO "magic" feeling, don't forget all the optimal setups that will be formed, the META, the spreadsheets and how newbies will be excluded sooner or later if they don't follow it, like it or not.
If you are seeking pure mechanically challenging fights, then it still exist in form of Mythic+ (WoW) or Savage (FFXIV). But I know what you are trully seeking is the old feeling and that, IMO, don't exist anymore and can't be replicated. (Not for the nostalgic players anyways, I still can feel immersed in themepark MMOs like WoW or XIV, I just don't expect the unrealistic).
I know it feels patronizing when I say that, but I also think that is patronizing as fuck when I see people in this forum trying to diminish the playerbase of currently running games like WoW or FFXIV, just because they are trying to seek something that is unattainable.
But please retire this "Rose Tinted Glasses" bullshit, it's just terribly patronizing.
Just a guess but I'll bet anyone making the nostalgia argument isn't playing an emu like p1999, vanilla WoW, Shadowbane, SWG, etc. Personally emulators are the only reason I even still play MMORPGs. Kinda throws the whole nostalgia thing out the window when people are playing those games today and still enjoying them.
"You CAN'T buy ships for RL money." - MaxBacon
"classification of games into MMOs is not by rational reasoning" - nariusseldon
Just a guess but I'll bet anyone making the nostalgia argument isn't playing an emu like p1999, vanilla WoW, Shadowbane, SWG, etc. Personally emulators are the only reason I even still play MMORPGs. Kinda throws the whole nostalgia thing out the window when people are playing those games today and still enjoying them.
They don't retain numbers, most private servers (with a few exceptions) have to wipe the server and reborn every few months, perhaps a year. That situation don't work on official servers. I had fun on some private servers, but that doesn't mean they would be a good choice for official servers. Also there is a lot of players playing on private servers that don't have the same opinion about MMOs as the people on this forum. I know lots that play both private and official servers, for different reasons.
They would datamine, they would make spreadsheets with optimal routes week 2 on Reddit.
I've never understood the desire of some players to reduce MMOs to the mathematical formulas upon which they are made. Perhaps it's just the computer geek in them, and they are free to do so if they choose, but for me it's just another way of destroying immersion. Don't tell me anything that reminds me it's just a make believe world.
One of the first things that popped up and it was already happening in the early days of EQ was DPS. I never failed to find someone who had to calculate the DPS of our group. Don't tell me how much damage per second we are generating. Either we can kill a mob or we can't. If we can, great...if not, don't attack it.
All the fault of World of Warcraft, before WoW, the gamer was generally the smartest person in the room every time. Geeks, nerds, the math and science wizards. Blizzard made gaming mainstream blitzkrieg marketing it to all walks of life, especially the stay at home mom's. Little known fact but WoW actually had a direct negative effect on daytime programming ratings, women turned off Oprah and their soap opera's and started buying computers and video games, Blizzard is directly responsible for women now being a larger market share of the video game industry than men. I will never forget my wife opening her Cosmopolitan magazine and WoW having a 4 page center spread, right there between make-up for date night, and how to tell if your man is cheating. Blizzard literately had WoW on EVERY talk show, late night show, sitcom, in every publication, on every prime-time network ad block. Blizzard were masters of promotion and marketing and flooded the industry with 30-40 year old stay at home mom's that were suddenly the center of attention of a crap ton of horny young 20-40 year old geeks, WoW was responsible for TONS of affairs and divorces, word quickly spread that online gaming was the place to meet guys that fawn over women. It was insane, the fights between friends over women was epic, it was definitely ho's before bros for those first few years as guys that had never had a girl even look at them before were suddenly in deep online relationships with hot horny milf's. That was the beginning of the end.
Decided to have som fun with that data and the games list here on MMORPG.com. Here are the results. It's crude data of course, so take it as it is. I only used games labeled as MMORPG and that had a release date.
Underrated post. Just what I was wondering about seeing.
Funny (in a sad way) how well MUDs predicted it in their microcosm. "There are more MUDs and more players than ever!"—While true, it omitted how wildly asymmetrical the growth was. 2x total players from a decade before is not good when there are over 10x total games. Today that's even more true, except total players are declining, too.
Favorites: EQ, EVE | Playing: None. Mostly VR and strategy | Anticipating: CU, Pantheon
Graphics got better, gameplay got worse. That's what happens when a niche gets popularized. It become less about making a game and more about making money.
MMOs were always about making money.
Not sure why some have a hard time accepting this.
Games made for the sake of gaming wont target masses of players with subscription fees like all gen1 games did.
No one's having a hard time accepting that. You're over-simplifying the point... Or perhaps missing or ignoring it altogether.
A post I'd read a while ago put it perfectly. To paraphrase:
There's a difference between saying: "We want to make a great game, so we need to make enough money" and saying: "We want to make a lot of money, so we have to make a popular game".
1st and 2nd Gen MMOs (maybe some 3rd) followed the former. MMOs to come after WoW have increasingly followed the latter.
In one case, the focus was on creating an engaging and lasting experience in a world that stands apart from anything else on the market, and was only trying to attract people who would enjoy that particular experience.
In the other, it's about following a an increasingly generic formula with minimal deviation to target the largest number of people, by catering to the lowest/largest common denominator.
It boils down to: Is raising money a means to an end (1st/2nd Gen), or is it the end in itself (post-WoW)?
And the trend has been to water them down more and more. Systems that used to account for an entire career path for a player in old school MMOs are barely an after-thought in more recent ones. Now, it's "how do we monetize the hell out of these things so we can maximize our cash shop revenue?". It's barely even about gameplay anymore. It's just about separating the player from as much of their money as possible, through any means possible.
Anyone who's been around since the 1st and 2nd gen, and has played various titles through each generation since then should be able to see how the focus has changed, and the games with them.
You are living in a fairytale world where gen1 MMORPGs were not focused on making a lot of money first.
I'll give you a big hint - game developers talking to media filter about 95% of what they really want to say, talk to them as an insider and off the record - the money was KEY in why they chose to go for massive online market, and not just make a multiplayer RPG.
The difference between focusing on "game" vs "money" is something players completely made up because it makes for a nicer story - but that's not reality.
Sorry to burst your bubble.
Developers that focus on MMOs do it for massive money making potential - this was true back in 1997, it is true today.
Of course you still need to make a damn good product to sell well - but the money making potential WAS the key driver, not making a cool game.
Any product that is targeting millions of consumers is squarely focused on money making potential.
This is actually false. Doing even a little research into the industry pre-WoW, there was very little expectation of games being hugely successful. They were actually quite risky.
@quarterstackhad it right. The risk takers did it because they wanted to create massive fantasy worlds that people could explore and conquer cooperatively. There was no reason for them to believe that MMOs before EQ had massive money-making potential. They'd have been better off manufacturing another coop or single player game for a high probability of return on investment.
Doing this is called the Blue Ocean strategy and has been done extensively by companies like Nintendo. Their ONLY goal is to make money. Pioneers my ass, it is all business. As it should be I might ad, we are talking jobs and money here. Doing a little business research might have helped you, creating market space in an area where it wasn't before is a well known strategy, it is also a tricky one, the dividend if it DOES work out is huge though.
/Cheers, Lahnmir
'the only way he could nail it any better is if he used a cross.'
Kyleran on yours sincerely
'But there are many. You can play them entirely solo, and even offline. Also, you are wrong by default.'
Ikcin in response to yours sincerely debating whether or not single-player offline MMOs exist...
'This does not apply just to ED but SC or any other game. What they will get is Rebirth/X4, likely prettier but equally underwhelming and pointless.
It is incredibly difficult to design some meaningfull leg content that would fit a space ship game - simply because it is not a leg game.
It is just huge resource waste....'
Gdemami absolutely not being an armchair developer
Comments
Old School Mechanics + New Graphics + Modern Standards + $50 Million
That's what I said.
We've been discussing this stuff for months and you keep ignoring the most important part of my argument M-O-D-E-R-N--S-T-A-N-D-A-R-D-S.
Without it we just have an Old game with slightly better graphics like SotA which is not what we Veteran are asking for.
You compared 4 modern MMOs with a relative high budget with a 13 years old game with low budget claiming that those games would wipe the floor with EQ.
No shit Sherlock.
I just made the comparison more fair.
And although as you rightly said, there is no 100% guarantee of success, an Old School MMO made with those attributes could easily compete with those modern games you mentioned.
I also want to point out in my previous post I put the emphases on Longevity and Player Retention rather than overall number of players, as I believe that's where Old School MMOs really shine.
People don't seem to be willing to devote thousands of hours and hundreds of dollars to a single game. Especially when nearly every other game out there has some type of an online component.
If you were to release old school EQ with modern day graphics and budget, the game would most likely fail hard. Forced grouping, hard death penalties, rare boss spawns that are one and done, etc., are not anything that most seem to be interested in now.
Many people seem to forget that the mmorpg market didn't shift from UO/EQ to ESO/BDO because the developers wanted to do it. They simply followed what the money told them to do.
I think this will change however and eventually we will get another good AAA mmorpg or some other good popular western mmorpg's. It has just taken a very long time to break the mold, for developers to take a leap of faith and focus more on creative direction.
Otherwise you might be right. The market might be saturated. This is why I believe any new MMO has to be original or offer something others don't. It has to stand out from the crowd. Just copying the other popular MMO's, as has been normal procedure, won't work. Special effort has to be given to gaining attention.
As for EQ, I've already stated somewhat what I think. I think as new MMO's entered the market, EQ's growth rate increasingly fell. Additionally, aging software and prolonged mudflation weighed it down. Disinterest also increases because players, despite nostalgia or their loyalties, grow bored playing the same MMO for years. They drift to playing other MMO's. Eventually it was losing subs until it fell to around 100k active users and below. This fate ultimately will plague all MMO's.
Do I think if old Everquest was given new graphics and new software it'd shine today? No. The first reason is market saturation. It'd be a lot harder to get those 400k+ active subs today because many of htem are presently entrenched in other games or MMO's. The second reason is changes in player expectations. More players expect instances, solo to max, no downtime or death penalty, plentiful quality quests, fast travel, radar, GPS maps, instagroups, dungeon finders and anti-train aggro. So in reality a revamped Everquest with its old mechanics and style would probably only get 10k or at most 100k active subs. If it by chance was upwards of 100k, an even newer MMO would release almost immediately to compete. Making an MMO is easier today.
IF whoever makes a revamped Everquest accounts for this and is ok with a small audience in the neighborhood of 10k to 100k, it might work. In all likelihood the audience might be even smaller, sub-10k. Chances are whoever undertakes this mission would innovate on the old Everquest, not just copy it into a new software engine. They'd do something others aren't doing and what big MMO's CAN'T do.
Personally that's what appeals to me. Do what the big ones can't. Be niche. Be fierce. Be unpopular. Know your competition. Be loyal. Treat your players respectfully. Forge a tolerant environment, and a family to last for years.
About the only thing that is certain is attempting to define, measure, or question this mythical EQ1 market is likely to draw attacks and derision from the pro-Pantheon crowd. Developers, look to the past in order to build on the shoulders of giants; don't just regurgitate the past.
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
- Core game play and mmorpg design has drastically changed so that the first generations no longer effectively exist.
Why has this happened?
- Adjusting to changing business models by willingly sacrificing original game concept.
EQ (and others) had a singular design philosophy. They wanted to build a fantasy world and slap in as many players as technology of the time allowed. How to play? Just pay some cash monthly and you gain access to ALL content.
There was no meta marketing ... just access to the purity of product creation.
Now add some years and data collection begins (the porn of business number crunchers). From that point on big business does what it always does. It looks to minimize employee man hours and maximize value of minimized content creation. It has evolved into the cesspool mmo landscape we see today.
Wow came later and is the shining example of how a game is completely re-engineered to adapt to meta marketing. It now shares the same client base of Blizzard's other products and unified business model. It has never been about solving the short comings of the early gen mmorpg designs while maintaining concept but entirely about maximizing profits across a unified business model.
A species cannot evolve if purposely killed by a mass extinction event. Wow did not evolve as the mmorpg it was originally designed as. It was succeeded by replicants Bladerunner-style. EQ simply was made extinct.
Here's hoping indie, genetic engineering game development brings it back to life.
You stay sassy!
There's a lot of mentioning of market saturation and upgrading graphics and I understand all that, but for me it all boils down to essentially one thing...the addictive factor. Will I become addicted to the game? That's really all I care about. And I don't think the formula for addiction is all that complicated. It requires three things (from my perspective) - immersion, immersion and immersion.
When I say I want to become addicted to an MMO, I don't say this lightly. When I first played EQ, I felt like I had been transported into that world. I want to experience that feeling again or I'm probably going to lose interest in any game that falls short of that. However, at the same time, there is also a great danger to achieving that level of immersion, and that is...addiction.
Basically, I want a world that makes me forget about how much the real world sucks, but if that happens, then I run the risk of not wanting to leave it. That's the conundrum. People talk about not having enough time to play MMOs the way they used to. The fact is, I really didn't have enough time to play EQ when I was playing it. But it made me play it (you know what I'm talking about you Evercrack players).
I want that feeling again, but I'm also worried about what might happen to my life if a game like that comes around again.
I'm saying it's YOUR problem.
Here:
https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2011/aug/29/world-of-warcraft-video-game-addict
At the height of his addiction Ryan van Cleave had little time for his real life. World of Warcraft, a video game, had crowded out everything: his wife and children, his job as a university English professor.
Before classes, or late at night while his family slept, he would squeeze in time at the computer. He would often eat meals at the computer – microwave burritos, energy drinks, foods that required only one hand, leaving the other free to work the keyboard and mouse.
It's facetious anyway. No harm meant. Get off my case.
If you want the raw data: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1uQ-IyLGZzDzN7Bx5PsKmPlG6nZpaYnMDg7ydIzYjSx8/edit?usp=sharing
This isn't a signature, you just think it is.
I am sure some people is addicted to c..k sucking, not sure everyone is though...
I wasn't actually commenting on the action itself.
If you'd used "Someone" instead of "Everyone" it would have been actually funny in the context even if just borderline acceptable for this Forum.
Yes, it was better back them, but not due to mechanics, not due to a perceived "difficulty", it was better because we were new and lacked information. If young players were forced to play EQ, Ragnarok Online, vanilla WoW or whatever, they would not have the same struggle. They would datamine, they would make spreadsheets with optimal routes week 2 on Reddit. Old games are not as hard as some of you like to fantasize. Raids being an exception, but you can find challenging raids nowadays anyway.
I never root for a game's failure, but I'm really curious to see how the community will react to Pantheon once the nostalgia glasses fall. I will probably play it, it looks interesting, but no, it won't reach the outrageous expectations, it won't teleport you back in time.
While oldschool times were cool, I still can enjoy MMOs, in some aspects more than before. Seems like this is more of a personal problem than a conspiracy theory that all MMO devs are trying to destroy your experience.
Yes it is about Mechanics actually.
Play a WoW Vanilla Dungeon (in any Private Server) and then play the same Dungeon on a Live Server, then you come back and tell me that's the same mechanics.
Back then, you needed good group coordination to actually complete a Dungeon, as the most difficult part was actually getting through all the Trash Mobs which were much more difficult than today and a challenge on themselves, unlike today where they are just cannon fodder for L33t Kidz.
It's got nothing to do with Data Mining, which was already a big thing in Allakhazam.com in 2002, now called ZAM.com.
Some people would not even reach the BOSS as they would wipe from Trash Mobs, so BOSS tactics from ZAM.com were totally irrelevant for the most part.
The only thing we can still argue about is if those old mechanics are still relevant today or they are outdated.
I think it is a type of game that some people still like as it take more effort and group coordination than current MMORPGs.
Some other disagree, and that's ok.
But please retire this "Rose Tinted Glasses" bullshit, it's just terribly patronizing.
I never said vanilla WoW and live have the same dungeon mechanics or numbers. I don't know from where did you get that. It was a bit more challenging? I guess. Good players nowadays will *NOT* have any problems with this kind of mechanics. Sorry but CC at the correct time, mana management, tank swap, single pulls, patrol mobs, whatever is not a challenge in a dungeon. Wildstar veteran dungeons was more challenging than vanilla WoW dungeons and still was pretty clearable for decent players.
I don't know anyone who I consider good at MMOs that would have problems with WoW vanilla dungeons. If someone is struggling with it in a private server, they should reevaluate their skill. A 13 year old League of Legends player would be able to pull off this kind of mechanics easily given enough information, which they would find on Reddit week 1, since most new players would check it for info.
Datamining existed before, yes, but the truth is that most people who started playing MMOs didn't give a damn about it or any scattered forum guides at the time (which could be found at guild forums too). Nowadays it would be pinned in popular social media like Reddit. Information will be available fairly quickly for any new game, it will happen with Pantheon too. People will point these guides to new people. Furthermore most guides back then were not that great, nowadays people have way more experience for creating those guides and they will be more accurate.
Anyway, datamining is the less threatening thing to the nostalgic MMO "magic" feeling, don't forget all the optimal setups that will be formed, the META, the spreadsheets and how newbies will be excluded sooner or later if they don't follow it, like it or not.
If you are seeking pure mechanically challenging fights, then it still exist in form of Mythic+ (WoW) or Savage (FFXIV). But I know what you are trully seeking is the old feeling and that, IMO, don't exist anymore and can't be replicated. (Not for the nostalgic players anyways, I still can feel immersed in themepark MMOs like WoW or XIV, I just don't expect the unrealistic).
I know it feels patronizing when I say that, but I also think that is patronizing as fuck when I see people in this forum trying to diminish the playerbase of currently running games like WoW or FFXIV, just because they are trying to seek something that is unattainable.
"classification of games into MMOs is not by rational reasoning" - nariusseldon
Love Minecraft. And check out my Youtube channel OhCanadaGamer
Try a MUD today at http://www.mudconnect.com/I've never understood the desire of some players to reduce MMOs to the mathematical formulas upon which they are made. Perhaps it's just the computer geek in them, and they are free to do so if they choose, but for me it's just another way of destroying immersion. Don't tell me anything that reminds me it's just a make believe world.
One of the first things that popped up and it was already happening in the early days of EQ was DPS. I never failed to find someone who had to calculate the DPS of our group. Don't tell me how much damage per second we are generating. Either we can kill a mob or we can't. If we can, great...if not, don't attack it.
Funny (in a sad way) how well MUDs predicted it in their microcosm. "There are more MUDs and more players than ever!"—While true, it omitted how wildly asymmetrical the growth was. 2x total players from a decade before is not good when there are over 10x total games. Today that's even more true, except total players are declining, too.
/Cheers,
Lahnmir
Kyleran on yours sincerely
'But there are many. You can play them entirely solo, and even offline. Also, you are wrong by default.'
Ikcin in response to yours sincerely debating whether or not single-player offline MMOs exist...
'This does not apply just to ED but SC or any other game. What they will get is Rebirth/X4, likely prettier but equally underwhelming and pointless.
It is incredibly difficult to design some meaningfull leg content that would fit a space ship game - simply because it is not a leg game.
It is just huge resource waste....'
Gdemami absolutely not being an armchair developer