Why I quit WoW - "The Consequences of Reducing the Skill Gap"

OhhPaigey

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iSgA_nK_w3A

Came across this video from a friend and while I don't like fighter games, this is literally spot on the biggest reason why I stopped playing WoW for Legion & probably beyond.

A game I put thousands of hours into, being my most played game ever, and slowly within 2 expansions it is now a game I haven't a touched in nearly a year.

I mainly PvP'd but it's to a point now there's so much randomness & luck a brand new player can beat veterans without having to use any form of conscious thought, just popping CDs and mashing a few attacks.

There used to be a time in WoW where if you used your CDs at the start of a match when you weren't on DR you wasted that CD, not anymore.

Thoughts?

[Deleted User]

The user and all related content has been deleted.

Ridelynn

I thought the hallmark of a good pvp system was that a new player could come in and beat a player that had been in the game for a while. Level playing field and all that.

Now, it's a bad thing?

What you call randomness, I suspect, other players may call skill.

simsalabim77

MMORPG's have never been mechanically difficult enough to require precise timing and command inputs like a fighting game. Even at the bleeding edge of progression that kind of precision does not exist. They're more about group coordination.

I don't think WoW is any easier now than it was in Vanilla or any other time during the game's lifespan. Boss encounters are way, way more challenging now. Things generally took longer, and were more inconvenient, but it wasn't more mechanically challenging in the past. 

The skill gap between the random LFR raider and a Mythic raider is huge. Same for PVP. A 1200 rated player is not even remotely close to a 1800+ rated player. 

holdenhamlet

It seems weird they're pushing for more casual gameplay.  I suspect the reason is they've lost some millions of subs (still have many, but still, it's a loss), and they figure the only way to recoup them is to entice casuals.  

I don't see that happening.  WoW is an old game with like 10 expansions.  Yeah people can buy max level characters now, but what kind of casual would really want to do that?  They'd rather start a new game than an old one with dated graphics.

It's also quite possible they looked at WildStar and declared catering to raiders/hardcore is out of vogue.  I don't think that's an accurate assessment, especially with loyal customers that have put in a decade of subs into your game.  They want to be challenged.

Viper482

My thoughts? If you were playing WoW for pvp you aren't a real pvper.

Amathe

If this is you, then you are ready to raid in WoW.

Oziius

OhhPaigey said:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iSgA_nK_w3A

Came across this video from a friend and while I don't like fighter games, this is literally spot on the biggest reason why I stopped playing WoW for Legion & probably beyond.

A game I put thousands of hours into, being my most played game ever, and slowly within 2 expansions it is now a game I haven't a touched in nearly a year.

I mainly PvP'd but it's to a point now there's so much randomness & luck a brand new player can beat veterans without having to use any form of conscious thought, just popping CDs and mashing a few attacks.

There used to be a time in WoW where if you used your CDs at the start of a match when you weren't on DR you wasted that CD, not anymore.

Thoughts?

So time in game and gear should beat skill? I don’t know that randomness and luck win... at least I find them not to. 

There are plenty of WoW vets playing that just aren’t good at pvp. It sucks you haven’t wanted to play, but it’s a personal thing. I find it better now then I ever did prior. I may be in the minority, but I’m still digging it. I’m more of a pve guy though, maybe that’s it. 

waynejr2

Oziius said:

OhhPaigey said:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iSgA_nK_w3A

Came across this video from a friend and while I don't like fighter games, this is literally spot on the biggest reason why I stopped playing WoW for Legion & probably beyond.

A game I put thousands of hours into, being my most played game ever, and slowly within 2 expansions it is now a game I haven't a touched in nearly a year.

I mainly PvP'd but it's to a point now there's so much randomness & luck a brand new player can beat veterans without having to use any form of conscious thought, just popping CDs and mashing a few attacks.

There used to be a time in WoW where if you used your CDs at the start of a match when you weren't on DR you wasted that CD, not anymore.

Thoughts?

So time in game and gear should beat skill? I don’t know that randomness and luck win... at least I find them not to. 

There are plenty of WoW vets playing that just aren’t good at pvp. It sucks you haven’t wanted to play, but it’s a personal thing. I find it better now then I ever did prior. I may be in the minority, but I’m still digging it. I’m more of a pve guy though, maybe that’s it. 

The skills point is about ego.  AKA, look at my leetz skillz.  If I am playing an mmoRPG, I am playing a character.  I don't cast fireballs in real life but my character is in game.  This is the problem when people don't understand they are playing at some level a RPG.  The pvper should go back to their pure "skillz" games.

Also, why if you are so leet with your skillz, do you want to play in a game genre which is inherently not pure skills based?  mmoRPGs are not pure skill based games because they are RPGs...

OhhPaigey

Mtibbs1989 said:

My thought as to why you stopped beyond legion?

You never played any of the heroic/mythic dungeons. Let alone participate in the competitive WoW scene.

I was max level 8 hours into Legion launch & had Legion Dungeon Hero unlocked in less than 1 day on September 1st (xpac launched Aug 30th) I did Mythic dungeons besides the two that required rep because I refuse to rep farm.

I've done 2's & 3's up to 2600 MMR & was highest rated on my server for 2s, 3s & RBGs (getting hero of horde/alliance) and even in Legion which I have 9 days played at 110 on my main, I was at 2400 CR in 3s in Season 3 resulting in Duelist without a serious team and hardly any matches played.

Also raided mythic (heroic back then) SoO with a top 100 guild & afterwards was recruited into the #1 US 10 man guild during tier 16.

I don't claim to be the best player, especially now since I haven't played in a year (not that Legion is difficult to learn by any means), but I know what I'm talking about when it comes to WoW.

The game has been shifting into casual territory slowly for awhile now, but Legion in every way, was catered towards new players & casuals, PvP gear went from brand new cool looking sets to recolored trash, to now where they don't even have transmogs, tabards, cloaks, elite gear, enchants, anything besides a mount and a title for Gladiator/R1.

And PvE, while the actual content seemed fairly well made, the combat, and any sort of serious competition has been completely removed from the game.

I'm not saying whether what WoW has turned into is a good or bad decision, I'm just saying what I've noticed happen to the game, and why I have no desire to play it anymore.

There's a reason why SO MANY skilled world first, top tier guilds & players who have been competing for years on end left the game for Legion, there's a reason why pretty much every multi glad/R1 PvPer has quit playing, and why there's no serious RBG competition anymore. It's because of Legion, plain & simple.

ste2000

holdenhamlet said:

It seems weird they're pushing for more casual gameplay.  I suspect the reason is they've lost some millions of subs (still have many, but still, it's a loss), and they figure the only way to recoup them is to entice casuals.  

Well I don't know what they are smoking at Blizzard but it is not the Casual they lost but the Hardcore (The ones asking for Vanilla Servers).
If they think the solution to increase the number of players is making WoW even more Casual, good luck with that.

Octagon7711

Chemicals in the air food and water are dumbing down the population so they have to make games easier to play.  

d_20

Kind of sounds like proc sets in ESO. I've just started running around with Selenes + Viper + ___ on my Nightblade. And it's just not fun. If you get the jump on someone and your stuff procs, it can be an easy kill -- no skill needed, no fight ensues, enemy dead. It just feels cheap and embarrassing to "win" that way, though. Pretty similar feeling with Tremorscale. 

ESO pvp = spam-till-it-procs or he-who-procs-first-wins

tawess

Well... Bye i guess...

But don´t come and claim that PvP was ever free from "rng and random"... Heck i remember back when  actually used to do pvp the big complaint was that you had a lot of pve glass-cannons. People in high level pve gear that could punch like a champ but due to not having pvp gear melted like butter. Then we had the whole "you killed my world PvP"... only that nobody cared to actually do anything to promote it... nobody cared to lay siege to places and no one cared to organize anything... 

And don´t get me started on the competitive scene... 

It is great that you finally found your limit.... but dearest... You are just echoing complaints that have been around for 10-ish years... Might it perhaps be you that have less tolerance, rather than the bar that have drastically dropped in game. 

btdt

WoW PVP has always been flavor of the month over all else.  They (Blizzard) are forever tinkering with the builds trying to create balance but in the end, only a handful of builds/classes ever even had a chance to begin with.

Skill only comes into play when both sides are evenly matched in both gear and talents... as soon as one side has better gear or talents, the other side has a serious deficit to make up.  

Then you have other random factors which are entirely beyond the control of the player... such as lag.  You're running around with an 18 ping, they're hitting 180.  What if they have tweaked their interface or have fully programmed input devices and you're running with the stock setup?  Does stacking the deck in your favor equate skill?  You don't know what hardware the other side has nor their particular setup.  Skill is affected by all of this.

Unless we're talking about the highest tier of eSports, in most cases, the game was stacked before it even began.

aliven

OhhPaigey said:

Mtibbs1989 said:

My thought as to why you stopped beyond legion?

You never played any of the heroic/mythic dungeons. Let alone participate in the competitive WoW scene.

I was max level 8 hours into Legion launch & had Legion Dungeon Hero unlocked in less than 1 day on September 1st (xpac launched Aug 30th) I did Mythic dungeons besides the two that required rep because I refuse to rep farm.

I've done 2's & 3's up to 2600 MMR & was highest rated on my server for 2s, 3s & RBGs (getting hero of horde/alliance) and even in Legion which I have 9 days played at 110 on my main, I was at 2400 CR in 3s in Season 3 resulting in Duelist without a serious team and hardly any matches played.

Also raided mythic (heroic back then) SoO with a top 100 guild & afterwards was recruited into the #1 US 10 man guild during tier 16.

I don't claim to be the best player, especially now since I haven't played in a year (not that Legion is difficult to learn by any means), but I know what I'm talking about when it comes to WoW.

The game has been shifting into casual territory slowly for awhile now, but Legion in every way, was catered towards new players & casuals, PvP gear went from brand new cool looking sets to recolored trash, to now where they don't even have transmogs, tabards, cloaks, elite gear, enchants, anything besides a mount and a title for Gladiator/R1.

And PvE, while the actual content seemed fairly well made, the combat, and any sort of serious competition has been completely removed from the game.

I'm not saying whether what WoW has turned into is a good or bad decision, I'm just saying what I've noticed happen to the game, and why I have no desire to play it anymore.

There's a reason why SO MANY skilled world first, top tier guilds & players who have been competing for years on end left the game for Legion, there's a reason why pretty much every multi glad/R1 PvPer has quit playing, and why there's no serious RBG competition anymore. It's because of Legion, plain & simple.

Hardcore guilds are quiting because - mythic raiding feel unrewarding loot wise, huge time commitment to keep solid roster of alts, people grown up.

If you knew what you are talking about you would not spew nonsense how there is "no skill" involved in game. Not even one race first guild dropped because they felt challenge was non existent. But how the hell you should know that. 

Another stupid, baseless rant. 

[Deleted User]

The user and all related content has been deleted.

Iselin

d_20 said:

Kind of sounds like proc sets in ESO. I've just started running around with Selenes + Viper + ___ on my Nightblade. And it's just not fun. If you get the jump on someone and your stuff procs, it can be an easy kill -- no skill needed, no fight ensues, enemy dead. It just feels cheap and embarrassing to "win" that way, though. Pretty similar feeling with Tremorscale. 

You're actually dissing the opposite end of the spectrum lol. All of those things that take a relatively long time to get (I spent weeks getting two sharpened Viper daggers) and make a difference are the opposite from the casualization the OP is talking about.

Nerfing those proc sets, as ZOS did when they removed their ability to crit would be more on topic about leveling the playing field. I.e. those with the proc sets vs. those who don't have them yet.

Tamanous

His complaint is about "Wow then" and "Wow now".

It is 100% true that Wow pvp was far more about skill back in the day than it is now. Go play on a dedicated and populated vanilla Wow pvp server and quickly see how fast you are pwned by good pvp'rs even if you have equal gear.

The game was different then. It wasn't built around either small scale arena or raid rotations to keep the kiddies interested why standing still casting. Classes were build before any consideration for those. You had abilities created for diversity of purpose and only had maximized benefits under truly dynamic game play ... which was only pvp.

The only draw back to Wow in the early days of gear scaling which got out of control. Vanilla Wow servers exist for the experienced players anyway who combine their knowledge of raiding and pvp so most end gamers have decent gear and are competitive. 

Just look at the class balance. Some class specs can't raid for shit but kick ass in pvp. Macro knowledge added another level of strategy in game built on strategic ability use and not twitch game play (why people confuse these 2 only shows their ignorance in game play differences). 

I know this is a point of argument but my experience clearly reveals to me that in vanilla Wow the Hunter was the class requiring the highest skill cap to master in pvp (based on how bad it could be played vs how masterfully). A game cannot be skill-less if 95% of hunters are laughable yet the very few on a server can pwn your ass to the end of time. That is the definition of a skill game. It took those hunters years of playing their class to know it so well against all others.

The benefit to locking rules to a patch version is that nothing changes mechanically (again gear scaling was the large fault to vanilla Wow) so you can clearly see a player's skill progression. Live Wow changes class mechanics like underwear.

The complaint put forth from the OP is that the time to master a class in Wow no longer exists meaningfully. 

[Deleted User]

The user and all related content has been deleted.

JDis25

I used to do great in WoW PvP back in BC/Wotlk and Pandaria.. in Legion now I suck. Someone explain this shit?

I gave up WoW not because it lacks a skill cap but because Blizz puts the bare min of effort into the game because they know they have enough fanboys to eat it up and continue to play.

And also because I just couldn't take the floatiness of the combat, and the simon says raid mechanics.

StoneRoses

OhhPaigey said:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iSgA_nK_w3A

Came across this video from a friend and while I don't like fighter games, this is literally spot on the biggest reason why I stopped playing WoW for Legion & probably beyond.

A game I put thousands of hours into, being my most played game ever, and slowly within 2 expansions it is now a game I haven't a touched in nearly a year.

I mainly PvP'd but it's to a point now there's so much randomness & luck a brand new player can beat veterans without having to use any form of conscious thought, just popping CDs and mashing a few attacks.

There used to be a time in WoW where if you used your CDs at the start of a match when you weren't on DR you wasted that CD, not anymore.

Thoughts?

They been shifting away from unbalanced gear centric pvp and the best you can come up with is randomness & luck. They leveled the playing field and you just lost to a new player? Or an old WoW veteran returning to the game? How bout just an old veteran mmo player who has been around the blocks a few times? 
 
Bragging about sitting all day in front of your computer and sharing achievements in a VIDEO GAME is hardly to be proud of.

tawess

JDis25 said:

I used to do great in WoW PvP back in BC/Wotlk and Pandaria.. in Legion now I suck. Someone explain this shit?

I gave up WoW not because it lacks a skill cap but because Blizz puts the bare min of effort into the game because they know they have enough fanboys to eat it up and continue to play.

And also because I just couldn't take the floatiness of the combat, and the simon says raid mechanics.

it is simple... 

You are getting old... 

Oh... and WotLK had such gems as that Crusader doughnut of monsters... such a good raid... *altho it was fun to kite the warrior in the *pvp* part.*

StoneRoses

OhhPaigey said:

Mtibbs1989 said:

My thought as to why you stopped beyond legion?

You never played any of the heroic/mythic dungeons. Let alone participate in the competitive WoW scene.

I was max level 8 hours into Legion launch & had Legion Dungeon Hero unlocked in less than 1 day on September 1st (xpac launched Aug 30th) I did Mythic dungeons besides the two that required rep because I refuse to rep farm.

I've done 2's & 3's up to 2600 MMR & was highest rated on my server for 2s, 3s & RBGs (getting hero of horde/alliance) and even in Legion which I have 9 days played at 110 on my main, I was at 2400 CR in 3s in Season 3 resulting in Duelist without a serious team and hardly any matches played.

Also raided mythic (heroic back then) SoO with a top 100 guild & afterwards was recruited into the #1 US 10 man guild during tier 16.

I don't claim to be the best player, especially now since I haven't played in a year (not that Legion is difficult to learn by any means), but I know what I'm talking about when it comes to WoW.

The game has been shifting into casual territory slowly for awhile now, but Legion in every way, was catered towards new players & casuals, PvP gear went from brand new cool looking sets to recolored trash, to now where they don't even have transmogs, tabards, cloaks, elite gear, enchants, anything besides a mount and a title for Gladiator/R1.

And PvE, while the actual content seemed fairly well made, the combat, and any sort of serious competition has been completely removed from the game.

I'm not saying whether what WoW has turned into is a good or bad decision, I'm just saying what I've noticed happen to the game, and why I have no desire to play it anymore.

There's a reason why SO MANY skilled world first, top tier guilds & players who have been competing for years on end left the game for Legion, there's a reason why pretty much every multi glad/R1 PvPer has quit playing, and why there's no serious RBG competition anymore. It's because of Legion, plain & simple.

 Casual WoW shifted a long time ago as soon as Welfare Gear was introduced this was their version of Bush's NO CHILD LEFT BEHIND ACT. Fuck, our new American culture is praising and awarding their kids for every fucking thing they do. Now we have more folks who feel entitled to just about anything.

Players come and go for various reason. Though, to claim they all left because of Legion is hardly accurate. 

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The user and all related content has been deleted.

tawess

Mtibbs1989 said:

Read, "I used to do great in WoW PvP back in BC/Wotlk and Pandaria.. in Legion now I suck. ".
 
Then Read their key comment, "I gave up WoW not because it lacks a skill cap but because Blizz puts the bare min of effort into the game because they know they have enough fanboys to eat it up and continue to play"

then re-read, "I used to do great in WoW PvP back in BC/Wotlk and Pandaria.. in Legion now I suck. ".

Enough said, lol.

my bad... 

the person is getting old...  =P

As in... The universal excuse... 

As in... A joke.... 

My bad... 

But it was sort of appropriate... BC was some time ago... and we do slow down with time... In fact... Since PvP has "become EZ" the fact that the person still fail does actually lend some credence to old age setting in.. worse eyesight... slow eye-hand coordination... spotty info processing... 

=D 

Anyway... PvP was shit back then it is shit now and it will remain shit... the only thing that changes are the group that complain and what they complain about...