Never looked back, no point in spoiling a good memory of the best iteration of the game.
If buggy, unplayable for weeks, unbalanced mess is best for you...
There were issues but not that extreme - unplayable for weeks? hyperbole much?
Still for me miles better than the shit show it became over the years - people just standing in towns waiting for instances to pop..... lol
What's the point of having all these zones and a world to explore?
Are you sure you quit in Dec 2004? It didn't launch until late Nov 2004 and in the 1st few months it did suffer from a severe loot lag issue, bugs, unfinished dungeons, no BGs or raids.
My 1st and main server Kel Thuzad was either down a lot (I got quite a few comp days from Blizz) or so badly overloaded (1000+ queues) I had to roll characters on 3 or 4 of the newer servers they opened in later months just to play.
I did stick around until the fall of 2006 I think, just as they were ramping up for the BC launch. Between the changes to smaller raids and increased level caps and gear it shredded my raiding guild and invalidated all progress I had earned to date, so I walked away.
I came back for a month or two when Cata launched however I found the game had moved even more in a direction I didn't care for, as you said, the world no longer mattered so I closed the door for good.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
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Turned into a f2p game except we still pay a sub for it. PvP is random chance as well as alot of things such as having the best items etc. You can literally mash random buttons and be good at pvp.
MMORPG's have never been mechanically difficult enough to require precise timing and command inputs like a fighting game. Even at the bleeding edge of progression that kind of precision does not exist. They're more about group coordination.
I don't think WoW is any easier now than it was in Vanilla or any other time during the game's lifespan. Boss encounters are way, way more challenging now. Things generally took longer, and were more inconvenient, but it wasn't more mechanically challenging in the past.
The skill gap between the random LFR raider and a Mythic raider is huge. Same for PVP. A 1200 rated player is not even remotely close to a 1800+ rated player.
you are kidding right? did you raid in BC or vanilla? when CC was actually necessary? now its just a race through dungeons..... raids are pretty basic but its still a challenge to get 25 people to cooperate with each other, I dunno about the pvp but the pve is very dumbed down. wouldn't be surprised if the pvp was also. I know one thing, you did NOT play BC or if ya did, you forget what it was like
I did and was a progression raider playing a Rogue named Halamoon. I sold him, and someone changed his name. CC'ing trash wasn't some mystical technique that took ages to learn. BC raids were hard because people weren't as good at the game as they are now. BC raids and heroics were also terribly tuned and they were constantly tuning raids on live servers for a couple months. Kara was ridiculous when we first started. Mobs in heroics had 360 degree cleave that would almost one shot you.
The hardest part of BC was finding 24 good players to raid with. It wasn't any more mechanically challenging.
The hardest part of BC was finding 24 good players to raid with. It wasn't any more mechanically challenging.
Here's the actual translation of that:
"The hardest part of BC was finding 24 people that you thought were good enough to raid with."
Gear score may be a modern WoW thing, but elitism existed from the very beginning. They took only the best class/specs and best geared based on the encounter. You could have been a good player, but if your class/spec wasn't needed, you didn't get the invite. If you happened to be one of 20 other rogues looking to raid, well, guess what, best geared got the slot 99.999% of the time.
Finding 24 people WILLING to work with one another DESPITE their shortcomings was extremely rare. Nobody wanted to waste THEIR time on the new guy.
I thought the hallmark of a good pvp system was that a new player could come in and beat a player that had been in the game for a while. Level playing field and all that.
Now, it's a bad thing?
What you call randomness, I suspect, other players may call skill.
I assumed by veteran she wasn't referring to a veteran that was still somehow piss poor at playing the game.
A PvP system where a newbie can beat a veteran, with the normal skills a veteran would develop over the course of playing the game, is not the hallmark of a good PvP system. The hallmark of a good PvP system, in the context you mention, is one that attempts to guide similarly-skilled players (which, usually, is guided primarily by time played) into fights with one another while avoiding putting the newbie up against the grizzled old vet.
I'm not sure why folks seem to be assuming a newbie is going to have attained the same skill level playing the game as a veteran.. And without assuming that unusual stance, a skill-based PvP game is going to err in favor of the vet. A system that doesn't inherently presents "equalizer" abilities that assist the newbie in circumventing the disadvantage they have in terms of skill.
I mainly PvP'd but it's to a point now there's so much randomness & luck a brand new player can beat veterans without having to use any form of conscious thought, just popping CDs and mashing a few attacks.
There used to be a time in WoW where if you used your CDs at the start of a match when you weren't on DR you wasted that CD, not anymore.
God. The lack of reading comprehension some people who feel the need to post their opinions have is astounding.
If your response to that is "a skilled player would learn to adapt" then you either need to learn some critical thinking skills, or go back to school and learn to read.
The argument is basically saying the combat system has replaced the poker table with a slot machine and created a system where skill is no longer a major factor. "Learn to adapt" is not a valid answer to a situation like that.
Either respond to the actual premise or the argument or don't take part in it. Please. This is just painful.
Came across this video from a friend and while I don't like fighter games, this is literally spot on the biggest reason why I stopped playing WoW for Legion & probably beyond.
A game I put thousands of hours into, being my most played game ever, and slowly within 2 expansions it is now a game I haven't a touched in nearly a year.
I mainly PvP'd but it's to a point now there's so much randomness & luck a brand new player can beat veterans without having to use any form of conscious thought, just popping CDs and mashing a few attacks.
There used to be a time in WoW where if you used your CDs at the start of a match when you weren't on DR you wasted that CD, not anymore.
Thoughts?
They been shifting away from unbalanced gear centric pvp and the best you can come up with is randomness & luck. They leveled the playing field and you just lost to a new player? Or an old WoW veteran returning to the game? How bout just an old veteran mmo player who has been around the blocks a few times?
Bragging about sitting all day in front of your computer and sharing achievements in a VIDEO GAME is hardly to be proud of.
You could farm PvP gear in 2 days on the old system, but whatever, that's such a non issue for me.
The problem with PvP now boils down to a couple of things, besides the complete lack of attention & thought from the developers themselves. No rewards for anything, no nothing...
Just like everything else, they blended everything together. Instead of having to worry about positioning, saving interrupts, timing interrupts even, knowing when to trinket, you have 1 big pool of DR. You get CCd once or twice and that's it. Things like hunters old interrupt? It's now just a blanket CD (a blanket CD is when you silence someone without actually having to time an interrupt), basically, much less thinking involved.
Hybrid healing? While it was probably too strong in MoP, it's literally worthless now in Legion, what does this mean? Pop CDs, blanket silence healer, win.
Again, pointing out the problems with PvP is harder than it is for PvE, because it's so many little things combined.. but pretty much if you go through the early patch notes on classes, everything there was done for 1 reason, to simplify the game, and in my opinion, oversimplify.
Poor continued effort glorifying how elite of a player you are. You call it oversimplified and yet it's difficult for you.
What is difficult for me? I ended Season 3 with 70 arenas played (you have to have 50 qualify for a title), on a spec I had 9 days play time on, without VOIP and with mostly random groups and still finished in the top 1% for arena rating (glad cut off was 2560~, I ended at 2420~).
The whole point is the game is mind numbingly easy and I'm not interested in it anymore.
The end.
When all is said and done, more is always said than done.
Came across this video from a friend and while I don't like fighter games, this is literally spot on the biggest reason why I stopped playing WoW for Legion & probably beyond.
A game I put thousands of hours into, being my most played game ever, and slowly within 2 expansions it is now a game I haven't a touched in nearly a year.
I mainly PvP'd but it's to a point now there's so much randomness & luck a brand new player can beat veterans without having to use any form of conscious thought, just popping CDs and mashing a few attacks.
There used to be a time in WoW where if you used your CDs at the start of a match when you weren't on DR you wasted that CD, not anymore.
Thoughts?
The amount of competitive WoW pvp players make up less than 1% of the user base. It should come as no shock the game was never designed with you in mind, including Vanilla.
Competitive WoW players are who progress the community and make it entertaining.
Blizzcon? Heard of it? Do you know what happens when you remove theorycrafting from a game? Where the educated players who put time into really learning mechanics that the devs didn't even know could work like that.
You know the talents, and gear choices, and rotations everybody chooses is because of theorycrafting.
Without the top 1% you have a completely different game & community, which is what we're already seeing happen.
When all is said and done, more is always said than done.
Blizzcon? Heard of it? Do you know what happens when you remove theorycrafting from a game? Where the educated players who put time into really learning mechanics that the devs didn't even know could work like that.
Hasn't that been WoW since the removal of skill trees? I thought WoW basically acknowledged they don't care about any players with neurons firing in their brain years ago.
Came across this video from a friend and while I don't like fighter games, this is literally spot on the biggest reason why I stopped playing WoW for Legion & probably beyond.
A game I put thousands of hours into, being my most played game ever, and slowly within 2 expansions it is now a game I haven't a touched in nearly a year.
I mainly PvP'd but it's to a point now there's so much randomness & luck a brand new player can beat veterans without having to use any form of conscious thought, just popping CDs and mashing a few attacks.
There used to be a time in WoW where if you used your CDs at the start of a match when you weren't on DR you wasted that CD, not anymore.
Thoughts?
good. i agree, older games de-nerf everything so that either new classes or previously tough classes become easy mode and like any player can run around being a killing machine. it happens with games that have been around a long time. i.e. they decrease the time it takes to hit the level cap, leveling speeds up, rewards speed up, basically every character/player can be super powerful with less effort/time/skill.
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Came across this video from a friend and while I don't like fighter games, this is literally spot on the biggest reason why I stopped playing WoW for Legion & probably beyond.
A game I put thousands of hours into, being my most played game ever, and slowly within 2 expansions it is now a game I haven't a touched in nearly a year.
I mainly PvP'd but it's to a point now there's so much randomness & luck a brand new player can beat veterans without having to use any form of conscious thought, just popping CDs and mashing a few attacks.
There used to be a time in WoW where if you used your CDs at the start of a match when you weren't on DR you wasted that CD, not anymore.
Thoughts?
The amount of competitive WoW pvp players make up less than 1% of the user base. It should come as no shock the game was never designed with you in mind, including Vanilla.
Competitive WoW players are who progress the community and make it entertaining.
Blizzcon? Heard of it? Do you know what happens when you remove theorycrafting from a game? Where the educated players who put time into really learning mechanics that the devs didn't even know could work like that.
You know the talents, and gear choices, and rotations everybody chooses is because of theorycrafting.
Without the top 1% you have a completely different game & community, which is what we're already seeing happen.
People have been leaving the game since vanilla... some of them were the top 1% too. The game is still here. The theory crafting still goes on. Guilds come and go. World firsts still happen. None of that will ever change. Your departure has no more impact than the announcement of world first guilds packing it in. It's been happening since vanilla and it will continue to happen.
Some really talented players have long since left... the game is still here. It will continue to still be here for years to come. You may not be playing it, but someone else will.
Came across this video from a friend and while I don't like fighter games, this is literally spot on the biggest reason why I stopped playing WoW for Legion & probably beyond.
A game I put thousands of hours into, being my most played game ever, and slowly within 2 expansions it is now a game I haven't a touched in nearly a year.
I mainly PvP'd but it's to a point now there's so much randomness & luck a brand new player can beat veterans without having to use any form of conscious thought, just popping CDs and mashing a few attacks.
There used to be a time in WoW where if you used your CDs at the start of a match when you weren't on DR you wasted that CD, not anymore.
Thoughts?
They been shifting away from unbalanced gear centric pvp and the best you can come up with is randomness & luck. They leveled the playing field and you just lost to a new player? Or an old WoW veteran returning to the game? How bout just an old veteran mmo player who has been around the blocks a few times?
Bragging about sitting all day in front of your computer and sharing achievements in a VIDEO GAME is hardly to be proud of.
You could farm PvP gear in 2 days on the old system, but whatever, that's such a non issue for me.
The problem with PvP now boils down to a couple of things, besides the complete lack of attention & thought from the developers themselves. No rewards for anything, no nothing...
Just like everything else, they blended everything together. Instead of having to worry about positioning, saving interrupts, timing interrupts even, knowing when to trinket, you have 1 big pool of DR. You get CCd once or twice and that's it. Things like hunters old interrupt? It's now just a blanket CD (a blanket CD is when you silence someone without actually having to time an interrupt), basically, much less thinking involved.
Hybrid healing? While it was probably too strong in MoP, it's literally worthless now in Legion, what does this mean? Pop CDs, blanket silence healer, win.
Again, pointing out the problems with PvP is harder than it is for PvE, because it's so many little things combined.. but pretty much if you go through the early patch notes on classes, everything there was done for 1 reason, to simplify the game, and in my opinion, oversimplify.
There are rewards for pvp. The gear you are rewarded with scales based on your rating. At 2400+ you get a mythic raid equivalent piece every week and the random gear rewarded after wins scales as well. Obviously said gear tends to be unoptomized, but I've gotten some Bis relics and solid off pieces. There's also the elite set you get when over 2 k. It is just a recolored mythic set, but some of them look pretty nice.
Not sure what game you're playing, but I'm definitely paying attention to positioning. Every high rated team I've played against is aware of their positioning. Everyone saves their interrupt, no decent player is just randomly throwing kicks into frostbolts all game.
hunter interrupt is not a blanket cs. They still have a normal 3 second interrupt on a 24 second cd, you're referring to spider sting which is an honor talent. It puts a poison debuff on the target which will silence for 4 seconds on their next offensive spell cast. It can technically be dispelled although that's not exactly realistic. Still if you want to talk about skill cap, that could be a clutch dispel.
Hybrid healing still exists. Not sure how you claim to have played at a decent rating and never see offheals go out. it's far from worthless. I've had plenty of games salvaged due to a clutch cc, kiting, and offheals.
Ive definitely won and lost games from some random yolo strat, but it's almost always due to a misplay. Paladin or mage trying to clutch bubble and dying, shaman trying to save link, etc. You generally don't just blanket silence, pop cds and win at a respectable rating unless you have momentum already.
I dont disagree that legion pvp is in a relatively poor state, I just find most of your gripes to be a bit exaggerated.
I thought the hallmark of a good pvp system was that a new player could come in and beat a player that had been in the game for a while. Level playing field and all that.
Now, it's a bad thing?
What you call randomness, I suspect, other players may call skill.
No way. The hallmark of a great PVP system is one that is easy to grasp,
but hard to master. One that requires skill, and effort to reach the
top.
Take GW1 for example. PVP was pretty easy to get into, but to get the most out of it you had to pick up difficult to get Elite skills. But that alone wasn't enough. You had to master your characters, and work with your team. Your team also had to be well constructed.
It's those complexities that keep people interested.
You never played any of the heroic/mythic dungeons. Let alone participate in the competitive WoW scene.
I was max level 8 hours into Legion launch & had Legion Dungeon Hero unlocked in less than 1 day on September 1st (xpac launched Aug 30th) I did Mythic dungeons besides the two that required rep because I refuse to rep farm.
I've done 2's & 3's up to 2600 MMR & was highest rated on my server for 2s, 3s & RBGs (getting hero of horde/alliance) and even in Legion which I have 9 days played at 110 on my main, I was at 2400 CR in 3s in Season 3 resulting in Duelist without a serious team and hardly any matches played.
Also raided mythic (heroic back then) SoO with a top 100 guild & afterwards was recruited into the #1 US 10 man guild during tier 16.
I don't claim to be the best player, especially now since I haven't played in a year (not that Legion is difficult to learn by any means), but I know what I'm talking about when it comes to WoW.
The game has been shifting into casual territory slowly for awhile now, but Legion in every way, was catered towards new players & casuals, PvP gear went from brand new cool looking sets to recolored trash, to now where they don't even have transmogs, tabards, cloaks, elite gear, enchants, anything besides a mount and a title for Gladiator/R1.
And PvE, while the actual content seemed fairly well made, the combat, and any sort of serious competition has been completely removed from the game.
I'm not saying whether what WoW has turned into is a good or bad decision, I'm just saying what I've noticed happen to the game, and why I have no desire to play it anymore.
There's a reason why SO MANY skilled world first, top tier guilds & players who have been competing for years on end left the game for Legion, there's a reason why pretty much every multi glad/R1 PvPer has quit playing, and why there's no serious RBG competition anymore. It's because of Legion, plain & simple.
I'm in the same boat as you, I've played wow now since may 2005 i was lucky enough to join the top guild on my server from the get go and raided non stop from vanilla all the way till end of WOTLK , I Raided/pvp'd for about 3 months into CATA but eventually i decided to quit the game for good....or so i thought . I skipped MOP completely , only returning when ever i received some free game time mostly just to re-affirm how awful the game has got, same for warlords of draenor infact WOD is by far the worst expac of any game I've played played about a month of that near the end. I decided to buy Legion when it launched as i thought a new class would make it feel fresh again...started raiding-> we started on mythic straight away and was 1 shotting bosses ....we wasnt even hardly geared yet, back in the day in places like BWL or AQ when first starting out we would wipe for days on some bosses and once it finally went down we was ecstatic with joy ! That feeling has gone now... On top of that legendaries, every player has them now not just 1 either 3 or more along with welfare epics... this game is just meh who cares about being geared anymore. I remember standing in OG with my full set of DS gear on hunter and people wispering me how "lucky" i am id argue it took alot of hardwork but meh.. but you get my point . wow just isn't wow anymore its lost its way it caters to the wrong crowd for profits and there is no coming back.
My last hope is with blizzard making a legacy server, probably wont happen but at least i got to enjoy wow when it was "good"
So do I. A top rated PvP'er would not care, he would still win because he's skilled.
wow has never been a skill based pvp game EVER
Haven't played recently, have you? The gear is equalized in PvP.
Nope. And that's not going to change my perception of the game until they put skilltrees or some other form of meaningful customization back in. Which they won't, which is part of the reason I'll never give them another shot.
It is 100% true that Wow pvp was far more about skill back in the day than it is now. Go play on a dedicated and populated vanilla Wow pvp server and quickly see how fast you are pwned by good pvp'rs even if you have equal gear.
The game was different then. It wasn't built around either small scale arena or raid rotations to keep the kiddies interested why standing still casting. Classes were build before any consideration for those. You had abilities created for diversity of purpose and only had maximized benefits under truly dynamic game play ... which was only pvp.
The only draw back to Wow in the early days of gear scaling which got out of control. Vanilla Wow servers exist for the experienced players anyway who combine their knowledge of raiding and pvp so most end gamers have decent gear and are competitive.
Just look at the class balance. Some class specs can't raid for shit but kick ass in pvp. Macro knowledge added another level of strategy in game built on strategic ability use and not twitch game play (why people confuse these 2 only shows their ignorance in game play differences).
I know this is a point of argument but my experience clearly reveals to me that in vanilla Wow the Hunter was the class requiring the highest skill cap to master in pvp. A game cannot be skill-less if 95% of hunters are laughable yet the very few on a server can pwn your ass to the end of time. That is the definition of a skill game. It took those hunters years of playing their class to know it so well against all others.
The complaint put forth from the OP is that the time to master a class in Wow no longer exists meaningfully.
No there wasn't Old school WoW had classes dealing stupid amounts of damage and one shotting players, especially Vanilla and BC. Why would anyone want to play against the 110% dodge rogue or a bash rogue?
Why would anyone want to experience the pure rape damage dealt to them from a late vanilla ret paladin (other than the fact that they suck now compared to the way they did back then)?
The OP obviously has no idea regarding to skill as it takes more skill to play a modern WoW class then it did previously, I don't spam 1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1 on my demon hunter, and if you say "yes you do", then it's obvious you haven't even played the expansion.
BC classes were all about 1,1,2,3,1,1,2,3,1,1,1,2,3.
Hell, our main tank during heroic WotLK had his entire tank rotation on a macro because it was so simple to play. Don't tell me old WoW was challenging.
Do you want challenging? Turn off the add-ons that help you cheat your way through raiding and pvp!
I clearly mentioned vanilla rotations were complex ONLY IN PVP. Read the words before rambling on. The very reason why rotations were shit in raids was because the game wasn't designed around raids, again, as I mentioned.
I also said the main fault with vanilla was the when gear scaling became an issue ... and again, you missed that point entirely. And vanilla Paladin's damage? That is ONLY from reck bombing which you clearly know nothing about because it easily avoidable and largely not even an issue in pvp in 1.12 patch vanilla servers.
It's the old vanilla players with crossed patch version memories which confuse what vanilla is currently about. They say stupid shit like " 'member reckbombing" and " 'member faster than mount hunter pets" when it either isn't viable or doesn't even exist for the later half of vanilla Wow. The point was never that vanilla was perfect. The point is, and always has been, that vanilla was never allowed to evolve as the game it intended to be.
Btw, you can literally teach a parrot to click a sequence of buttons. The only skill that will ever occur in ALL video games will be in true dynamic situations that can only occur in human vs human (or perhaps true AI) conflict. This is the entire point of my post and the revelation of the OP ... it was about pvp skill.
Don't worry. I never put enough time into that trash game to accumulate anything worth giving away. Even in the fabled vanilla it was a yawnfest not worth playing past about level 25. I went on / back to better games such as Freelancer and the original Guild Wars. In recent years, you'd have to pay me 15$ a month to play it. Probably a lot more TBH.
Never looked back, no point in spoiling a good memory of the best iteration of the game.
If buggy, unplayable for weeks, unbalanced mess is best for you...
Sounds like you were on - and stayed on - one of the (from memory) 20 servers that had issues. The other 200+ servers they rolled out 5 days after launch were fine though. WoW wouldn't have been the success it was if it was as bad as you say for everyone.
Yeah that is Awful the reason I quit wow was because Blizzard started to completely ruin the game right when the first expansion came out Burning Crusade, the Original World OF Warcraft was absolutely great, but Burning Crusade is where the down-fall began, and just kept going from there things like "Reslience" on PVP Gear, having to farm for PVP gear and fight against people in PVP Gear without having a huge advantage over PVP Gear was just no fun for me.
OF Course adding in things like the Talent Tree changes recently, the no skill thing you mention like with Warlocks and ability to button mash yeah absolutely horrid game and experience now all around.
Even Dungeons and boss fights over the years in many online games have gotten so much easier I think there is only one game where it is harder and that is ESO?
There is really not much more to say, Wow was made for PvE and added a little PvP with PvE servers as an afterthought. They borrowed the battlegrounds and arenas from Guildwars when fans complained and changed things with the expansions but 95% of the game is PvE and without changing that and the base mechanics it will never become good, passable at best.
For good PvP you need far more content and mechanics made for PvP from the beginning. Wows strength is PvE and most of it's players spend most if not all of their time there.
WAR was sadly a try to make something similar but PvP focused instead but while it was okay it never really pulled it off and therefor it is gone now. ESO and GW2 are also mainly PvE focused but they have better PvP since they put effort in it from the beginning.
Let's hope Crowfall or Camelot Unchained does it better, they certainly have the potential since they focusing on it.
Not to point just at Wow but there has only been one game i found gave me a combat design that did not feel handcuffed/predetermined set by mana/power bars and is why i played it for many years. Wow does not have a good combat system and i love combat systems,it is also why i played Unreal Tournament for my fps game,the overall tactics that went into combat was above the rest.
When you get a game that delivers such a good combat design it ruins it for following games and for myself because although i want to play newer games i am not having fun playing inferior combat designs. that same developer "Square Enix"Tried to one up their own great combat design within FFXIV "thinking"the red carpet idea would do that,but they were wrong.Wow has done nothing over the years to try and improve what they basically copied off of SOE and to tel the truth Blizzard has not improved any of the genres they aim for. So when i hear people talking about VANILLA was better or whatever expansion,i think wtf the combat has always been generic or typical of a SOE design.
I would NEVER take pvp serious in a mmorpg,so i don't know why the OP is frustrated with a poor combat design for pvp because it will NEVER be rock solid FAIR across the board...NEVER,at least not in a rpg setting.If you want SERIOUS pvp you would have played games like Unreal..Quake..Gears of War..and to a lesser extent Overwatch but seeing how cheap Blizzard was releasing OW,i wouldn't support that nonsense.
Sadly because it is not Blizzard and not mass marketed like Blizzard,the newest Unreal Tournament is by far the most skilled game out there and it is not yet finished.I was a VERY good Unreal T pvp player and yet i struggle with the new Unreal T,partially the design has changed a bit but also because it is designed to be all about your "thinking" "deception" and skills,weapon choices and map knowledge.
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Im still reading the posts here its just pointless to argue imo with a lot of these people.
I returned to wow 3 ish weeks ago and got back into pve. Cleared heroic ToS at 890 ilevel and being 9 months behind in gear and AP.
The facts remain the same. The gap between the bottom feeders and the good players who know everything thats going on is still there but its quite minimal. Speaking in terms of ToS only as its the only Legion raid ive done..
ToS is good content wise like most raids.. the bosses are mostly faceroll easy besides KJ ofc and maiden/avatar.. and even then if you have a decent group your only problem is gonna be KJ.
I remember in siege there were a lot of bosses that required near perfect dps checks heal checks retard checks.. thats hardly here anymore.
Like i said. Decent content.. pretty faceroll other than that.
When all is said and done, more is always said than done.
Comments
My 1st and main server Kel Thuzad was either down a lot (I got quite a few comp days from Blizz) or so badly overloaded (1000+ queues) I had to roll characters on 3 or 4 of the newer servers they opened in later months just to play.
I did stick around until the fall of 2006 I think, just as they were ramping up for the BC launch. Between the changes to smaller raids and increased level caps and gear it shredded my raiding guild and invalidated all progress I had earned to date, so I walked away.
I came back for a month or two when Cata launched however I found the game had moved even more in a direction I didn't care for, as you said, the world no longer mattered so I closed the door for good.
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"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
This isn't a signature, you just think it is.
I did and was a progression raider playing a Rogue named Halamoon. I sold him, and someone changed his name. CC'ing trash wasn't some mystical technique that took ages to learn. BC raids were hard because people weren't as good at the game as they are now. BC raids and heroics were also terribly tuned and they were constantly tuning raids on live servers for a couple months. Kara was ridiculous when we first started. Mobs in heroics had 360 degree cleave that would almost one shot you.
The hardest part of BC was finding 24 good players to raid with. It wasn't any more mechanically challenging.
"The hardest part of BC was finding 24 people that you thought were good enough to raid with."
Gear score may be a modern WoW thing, but elitism existed from the very beginning. They took only the best class/specs and best geared based on the encounter. You could have been a good player, but if your class/spec wasn't needed, you didn't get the invite. If you happened to be one of 20 other rogues looking to raid, well, guess what, best geared got the slot 99.999% of the time.
Finding 24 people WILLING to work with one another DESPITE their shortcomings was extremely rare. Nobody wanted to waste THEIR time on the new guy.
A PvP system where a newbie can beat a veteran, with the normal skills a veteran would develop over the course of playing the game, is not the hallmark of a good PvP system. The hallmark of a good PvP system, in the context you mention, is one that attempts to guide similarly-skilled players (which, usually, is guided primarily by time played) into fights with one another while avoiding putting the newbie up against the grizzled old vet.
I'm not sure why folks seem to be assuming a newbie is going to have attained the same skill level playing the game as a veteran.. And without assuming that unusual stance, a skill-based PvP game is going to err in favor of the vet. A system that doesn't inherently presents "equalizer" abilities that assist the newbie in circumventing the disadvantage they have in terms of skill.
If your response to that is "a skilled player would learn to adapt" then you either need to learn some critical thinking skills, or go back to school and learn to read.
The argument is basically saying the combat system has replaced the poker table with a slot machine and created a system where skill is no longer a major factor. "Learn to adapt" is not a valid answer to a situation like that.
Either respond to the actual premise or the argument or don't take part in it. Please. This is just painful.
The whole point is the game is mind numbingly easy and I'm not interested in it anymore.
The end.
Blizzcon? Heard of it? Do you know what happens when you remove theorycrafting from a game? Where the educated players who put time into really learning mechanics that the devs didn't even know could work like that.
You know the talents, and gear choices, and rotations everybody chooses is because of theorycrafting.
Without the top 1% you have a completely different game & community, which is what we're already seeing happen.
Some really talented players have long since left... the game is still here. It will continue to still be here for years to come. You may not be playing it, but someone else will.
Not sure what game you're playing, but I'm definitely paying attention to positioning. Every high rated team I've played against is aware of their positioning. Everyone saves their interrupt, no decent player is just randomly throwing kicks into frostbolts all game.
hunter interrupt is not a blanket cs. They still have a normal 3 second interrupt on a 24 second cd, you're referring to spider sting which is an honor talent. It puts a poison debuff on the target which will silence for 4 seconds on their next offensive spell cast. It can technically be dispelled although that's not exactly realistic. Still if you want to talk about skill cap, that could be a clutch dispel.
Hybrid healing still exists. Not sure how you claim to have played at a decent rating and never see offheals go out. it's far from worthless. I've had plenty of games salvaged due to a clutch cc, kiting, and offheals.
Ive definitely won and lost games from some random yolo strat, but it's almost always due to a misplay. Paladin or mage trying to clutch bubble and dying, shaman trying to save link, etc. You generally don't just blanket silence, pop cds and win at a respectable rating unless you have momentum already.
I dont disagree that legion pvp is in a relatively poor state, I just find most of your gripes to be a bit exaggerated.
Take GW1 for example. PVP was pretty easy to get into, but to get the most out of it you had to pick up difficult to get Elite skills. But that alone wasn't enough. You had to master your characters, and work with your team. Your team also had to be well constructed.
It's those complexities that keep people interested.
I skipped MOP completely , only returning when ever i received some free game time mostly just to re-affirm how awful the game has got, same for warlords of draenor infact WOD is by far the worst expac of any game I've played played about a month of that near the end. I decided to buy Legion when it launched as i thought a new class would make it feel fresh again...started raiding-> we started on mythic straight away and was 1 shotting bosses ....we wasnt even hardly geared yet, back in the day in places like BWL or AQ when first starting out we would wipe for days on some bosses and once it finally went down we was ecstatic with joy ! That feeling has gone now...
On top of that legendaries, every player has them now not just 1 either 3 or more along with welfare epics... this game is just meh who cares about being geared anymore.
I remember standing in OG with my full set of DS gear on hunter and people wispering me how "lucky" i am id argue it took alot of hardwork but meh.. but you get my point .
wow just isn't wow anymore its lost its way it caters to the wrong crowd for profits and there is no coming back.
My last hope is with blizzard making a legacy server, probably wont happen but at least i got to enjoy wow when it was "good"
I'm a MUDder. I play MUDs.
Current: Dragonrealms
I also said the main fault with vanilla was the when gear scaling became an issue ... and again, you missed that point entirely. And vanilla Paladin's damage? That is ONLY from reck bombing which you clearly know nothing about because it easily avoidable and largely not even an issue in pvp in 1.12 patch vanilla servers.
It's the old vanilla players with crossed patch version memories which confuse what vanilla is currently about. They say stupid shit like " 'member reckbombing" and " 'member faster than mount hunter pets" when it either isn't viable or doesn't even exist for the later half of vanilla Wow. The point was never that vanilla was perfect. The point is, and always has been, that vanilla was never allowed to evolve as the game it intended to be.
Btw, you can literally teach a parrot to click a sequence of buttons. The only skill that will ever occur in ALL video games will be in true dynamic situations that can only occur in human vs human (or perhaps true AI) conflict. This is the entire point of my post and the revelation of the OP ... it was about pvp skill.
You stay sassy!
Sounds like you were on - and stayed on - one of the (from memory) 20 servers that had issues. The other 200+ servers they rolled out 5 days after launch were fine though. WoW wouldn't have been the success it was if it was as bad as you say for everyone.
OF Course adding in things like the Talent Tree changes recently, the no skill thing you mention like with Warlocks and ability to button mash yeah absolutely horrid game and experience now all around.
Even Dungeons and boss fights over the years in many online games have gotten so much easier I think there is only one game where it is harder and that is ESO?
There is really not much more to say, Wow was made for PvE and added a little PvP with PvE servers as an afterthought. They borrowed the battlegrounds and arenas from Guildwars when fans complained and changed things with the expansions but 95% of the game is PvE and without changing that and the base mechanics it will never become good, passable at best.
For good PvP you need far more content and mechanics made for PvP from the beginning. Wows strength is PvE and most of it's players spend most if not all of their time there.
WAR was sadly a try to make something similar but PvP focused instead but while it was okay it never really pulled it off and therefor it is gone now. ESO and GW2 are also mainly PvE focused but they have better PvP since they put effort in it from the beginning.
Let's hope Crowfall or Camelot Unchained does it better, they certainly have the potential since they focusing on it.
Wow does not have a good combat system and i love combat systems,it is also why i played Unreal Tournament for my fps game,the overall tactics that went into combat was above the rest.
When you get a game that delivers such a good combat design it ruins it for following games and for myself because although i want to play newer games i am not having fun playing inferior combat designs.
that same developer "Square Enix"Tried to one up their own great combat design within FFXIV "thinking"the red carpet idea would do that,but they were wrong.Wow has done nothing over the years to try and improve what they basically copied off of SOE and to tel the truth Blizzard has not improved any of the genres they aim for.
So when i hear people talking about VANILLA was better or whatever expansion,i think wtf the combat has always been generic or typical of a SOE design.
I would NEVER take pvp serious in a mmorpg,so i don't know why the OP is frustrated with a poor combat design for pvp because it will NEVER be rock solid FAIR across the board...NEVER,at least not in a rpg setting.If you want SERIOUS pvp you would have played games like Unreal..Quake..Gears of War..and to a lesser extent Overwatch but seeing how cheap Blizzard was releasing OW,i wouldn't support that nonsense.
Sadly because it is not Blizzard and not mass marketed like Blizzard,the newest Unreal Tournament is by far the most skilled game out there and it is not yet finished.I was a VERY good Unreal T pvp player and yet i struggle with the new Unreal T,partially the design has changed a bit but also because it is designed to be all about your "thinking" "deception" and skills,weapon choices and map knowledge.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
Im still reading the posts here its just pointless to argue imo with a lot of these people.
I returned to wow 3 ish weeks ago and got back into pve. Cleared heroic ToS at 890 ilevel and being 9 months behind in gear and AP.
The facts remain the same. The gap between the bottom feeders and the good players who know everything thats going on is still there but its quite minimal. Speaking in terms of ToS only as its the only Legion raid ive done..
ToS is good content wise like most raids.. the bosses are mostly faceroll easy besides KJ ofc and maiden/avatar.. and even then if you have a decent group your only problem is gonna be KJ.
I remember in siege there were a lot of bosses that required near perfect dps checks heal checks retard checks.. thats hardly here anymore.
Like i said. Decent content.. pretty faceroll other than that.