Where did I imply anything of the sort? A sub buys you time. Erego, developers need you to play as long as possible to make as much money as possible. XP pots and convenience items expedite the player's consuming of content. The goals of the offered product are inherently different. Nothing about a sub, originally, sped up your progression through content or allowed you to bypass content altogether.
Providing such XP/convenience items and attempting to keep players playing as long as possible is the fool's errand. Since one monetization strategy is rooted in shortening the gameplay experience, while the other is interested in lengthening it, the latter is inherently a better fit for what is essentially an activity taken SOLELY to spend time enjoying one's self.
EDIT- mobile site could still use some work reference quotes.
In the end it feels like the fruit of a problem and not the root of it in and of itself. The industry couldn't make it on subs alone. They couldn't make it on cash shops alone. Now they hit you from all angles (alpha/beta/EA buy ins, box/dlc fees, cash shop, and subs) and they are cranking up the prices wherever they can. At least it feels that way in the last year or so.
The industry was just fine on subs. The problem was that in order to compete with the WoW juggernaut companies decided to essentially give their games away and try to lure whales in to pay big bucks. The problems is that devalued the MMORPG commodity. It set expectations with people that they should not even have to pay anything for a product, as though somehow they were doing the world a favor by playing it. Instead of people looking at a $15 sub and going "Wow I can play for 100 hours a month which comes out to 15 cents an hour!!!", they go "Why should I pay $15 when the other ones are free".
"F2P" is the scourge of gaming.
You keep setting up the narrative you want to believe. It doesn't change reality though.
Pot... meet kettle.
Yeah because an entire industry collectively made that revenue shift decision because they thought they thought that would make more money by dropping the mandatory minimum fee and adding a cash shop.
And then you're trying to sell the idea that mmorpgs are a commodity, which they're not, and that it devalued them, which it didn't because mmorpgs charge as much as ever for each kind of revenue stream offered. Industry wide, have sub fees gone down? Have expansions and dlc fees gone down? Have cash shop items been devalued? No! None of that is true.
Take a true commodity, say petroleum, and when it is devalued you can see that fluctuation in the price of petroleum products and how it affects the global economy and, at the very least, use that commodity as an indicator of global economic conditions.
Sure. Like I said, you're setting up the narrative you want to believe. I'm not sure why @Kyleran would agree with such a shallow poorly reasoned personal attack (something you always cry about), but I can only guess that maybe he wants to believe your story too.
And all you can come up with is pot meet kettle as a rebuttal is because, as always, you have nothing of actual substance to say. Lot's a words, mostly air. You post is a juvenile diatribe because you have nothing else to bring to the discussion.
He may have used the term "commodity" inappropriately but his general point is not wrong. Calling the payment model free to play and not charging subs does indeed create a different expectation going in even if it's just at a superficial subconscious level even though we all know that free has severe limitations in all of them.
And he is also right that subs always were and still are a good deal if it's something you play a lot.
And F2P is indeed the scourge of gaming. It has created an acceptance of what amounts to commercials in MMOs as normal at both the development and playing levels. It's a rare MMO these days that can be experienced as just game play without some minor or major cash shop intrusion.
The current MMO business model may be a necessary evil (although I'm not even sure that it is necessary) but it does absolutely nothing to enhance game play - quite the opposite.
I don't think it's that simple. We love to over simplify things on this site. I almost always subscribe to a game, but I rarely play mandatory sub games for long periods. There is a difference.
Cash shops and micro transactions were coming before F2P. That started when goodies and collectors editions were a thing, long long before F2P. When it clicked with publishers that they could sell more by adding a little exclusive fluff, then it was just a matter of time before they started selling those items ala carte. F2P was just an excuse or catalyst to implement something already in motion.
When F2P bloomed all it mean is that you could play the game without a mandatory sub. It was "free to play" without a subscription. The publishers could have gone with box fee and no mandatory sub. But they went with the micro transaction route because gamers consistently send the message that they like extra fluff and exclusive goodies.
Subscriptions didn't enhance gameplay. They detracted as much as cash shops, in a different manner. The necessary evils as you call them are inherent to almost every aspect of game design where money touches it and their acceptance or rejection is completely arbitrary and inconsistent.
Look at the world of cognitive dissonance that mmo gamers live in. MMO gamers want new mmos every year in a genre built around longevity. I'm pretty sure both you and Kyle echoed how you don't want mindless grind (in a Pantheon thread) in a genre that is built around grind. Why would you keep subscribing to your sub-locked game if you didn't have a mountain of grind to climb?
You're half right and half wrong in my opinion. You're right that F2P has been twisted into a monetization abortion, but more so that the industry can't stop trying to push revenue generation further and further squeezing players more and more. On the other hand you're wrong to think that pure subs were simply better and didn't affect mmo game design adversely. The truth is somewhere in the middle of that.
No, subs created the need for the developer to get you to continue playing, which, in the end, is what a hobby is.
Microtransactions reward you for spending by allowing you to skip or expedite experiencing the game, whether that be through having powerful items or XP pots. You spend to avoid having to spend time playing the game.
The implementation is secondary, in my opinion, to the inherent traits of each system. We play games to pass the time and enjoy ourselves. Subs encourage developers to create content that allows us to spend more time enjoying the game. Microtransactions, save for the purely aesthetic, encourage a player to rush through or bypass content. One inherently lends itself better to a hobby as as way to spend time.
I agree
But:
I think that @Torval was describing the abuses of the two systems. With the birth of MMORPG's, subscription fee's and the justification behind them, I was expecting the genre to supply entertaining content as part of that subscription fee, after all it is an easy 25% of the cost of a new AAA game each and every month.
What the industry did with subscriptions was to implement a way to keep their customers playing and paying with a minimal of investment.
The introduction of the expansion pack proved Torval's point.
MMO´s was always casinos... the advancement from having you betting time to money was a natural one.
Personally i do not really care. If the game does it in a shit way i do not play it.
People are free to spend their money on what they want, people are also free to make dumb choices.
You can't walk into a casino and just use time to place bets. The entire thing depends on money.
I can't believe it needs to be explained but that's the key difference between RNG and a casino.
its not that they are different, its that they are very close to the same thing that it puts into question a person ranting over 'gambling' in a game that effectively is based on fucking dice!
I think the original position needs to be re-thought. Its not completely wrong but it could use some level of perspective
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
MMO´s was always casinos... the advancement from having you betting time to money was a natural one.
Personally i do not really care. If the game does it in a shit way i do not play it.
People are free to spend their money on what they want, people are also free to make dumb choices.
You can't walk into a casino and just use time to place bets. The entire thing depends on money.
I can't believe it needs to be explained but that's the key difference between RNG and a casino.
its not that they are different, its that they are very close to the same thing that it puts into question a person ranting over 'gambling' in a game that effectively is based on fucking dice!
I think the original position needs to be re-thought. Its not completely wrong but it could use some level of perspective
My original position was based directly on the loot box portion. Here's the main difference between the loot boxes and regular RNG such as a loot drop on a boss.
When you kill that boss, you're not paying just to kill that boss. You're paying - in a subscription scenario -(or not paying depending on the game) to play through the game in its entirety, and the money spent doesn't directly correlate to that boss.
My scenario would be more like, you pay everytime you want to kill the boss, for a chance to drop that piece of loot. That's the big difference here.
You are effectively betting money every time you use a loot box. Not when you're killing the boss. No additional money is on the line.
MMO´s was always casinos... the advancement from having you betting time to money was a natural one.
Personally i do not really care. If the game does it in a shit way i do not play it.
People are free to spend their money on what they want, people are also free to make dumb choices.
You can't walk into a casino and just use time to place bets. The entire thing depends on money.
I can't believe it needs to be explained but that's the key difference between RNG and a casino.
its not that they are different, its that they are very close to the same thing that it puts into question a person ranting over 'gambling' in a game that effectively is based on fucking dice!
I think the original position needs to be re-thought. Its not completely wrong but it could use some level of perspective
My original position was based directly on the loot box portion. Here's the main difference between the loot boxes and regular RNG such as a loot drop on a boss.
When you kill that boss, you're not paying just to kill that boss. You're paying - in a subscription scenario -(or not paying depending on the game) to play through the game in its entirety, and the money spent doesn't directly correlate to that boss.
My scenario would be more like, you pay everytime you want to kill the boss, for a chance to drop that piece of loot. That's the big difference here.
You are effectively betting money every time you use a loot box. Not when you're killing the boss. No additional money is on the line.
I know they are different. I am saying the proximity to each other is closer than what the subject conversation suggests
jesus H!
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
MMO´s was always casinos... the advancement from having you betting time to money was a natural one.
Personally i do not really care. If the game does it in a shit way i do not play it.
People are free to spend their money on what they want, people are also free to make dumb choices.
You can't walk into a casino and just use time to place bets. The entire thing depends on money.
I can't believe it needs to be explained but that's the key difference between RNG and a casino.
its not that they are different, its that they are very close to the same thing that it puts into question a person ranting over 'gambling' in a game that effectively is based on fucking dice!
I think the original position needs to be re-thought. Its not completely wrong but it could use some level of perspective
Are you able to tell the difference between sex and prostitution, because one involves a payment and that generates the gulf between the two, even if the activity is the same.
"You CAN'T buy ships for RL money." - MaxBacon
"classification of games into MMOs is not by rational reasoning" - nariusseldon
MMO´s was always casinos... the advancement from having you betting time to money was a natural one.
Personally i do not really care. If the game does it in a shit way i do not play it.
People are free to spend their money on what they want, people are also free to make dumb choices.
You can't walk into a casino and just use time to place bets. The entire thing depends on money.
I can't believe it needs to be explained but that's the key difference between RNG and a casino.
its not that they are different, its that they are very close to the same thing that it puts into question a person ranting over 'gambling' in a game that effectively is based on fucking dice!
I think the original position needs to be re-thought. Its not completely wrong but it could use some level of perspective
Are you able to tell the difference between sex and prostitution, because one involves a payment and that generates the gulf between the two, even if the activity is the same.
for the 3rd time.
I know gambling and RNG with the use of dice are different I am just illustrating that the proximity between the two is closer than the OP of the subject is suggesting. Do you understand for the 3rd time that I understand that they are different. Do you understand what I mean when I use the phrase 'the proximity is closer' I get a feeling you do not
I am not changing my position on this but you might do well to make a better effort to understand what I am saying when I mean 'promixity is closer than the OP thinks' because ranting about the difference is a waste of time and not related to the core of what I am saying I KNOW THEY ARE DIFFERENT so stop wasting your time with examples
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
The introduction of the expansion pack had little effect on subs. Prior to WoW, most MMORPGs had expansion packs. I'm not seeing how this would disprove that a F2P system backs the developers into a corner where they have to either nickel and dime for runs (*cough* SWL *cough*), convenience items, or straight up the bypassing of content. This is inherently different from a system that simply says "here's everything we got, and you can enjoy it for a month for X price." That system banks on the developer's creating longevity within the content, which is consistent with what a hobby is, anyways: a way to spend free time. F2P isn't nearly as compatible to the hobby, which is my point and was Iselin's when he commented that, even in instances where the cash shop isn't heavily intrusive, it's inherently less compatible with what a hobby is.
Unless your hobby is simply spending money... In which case, might I suggest indulging by purchasing things that appreciate in value, so you can later make a profit to fuel your urge to purchase more things? Just a suggestion.
Luckily, i don't need you to like me to enjoy video games. -nariusseldon. In F2P I think it's more a case of the game's trying to play the player's. -laserit
The things is in some contexts if you type in 'gaming' in google you will get...wait for it...GAMBLING!
gambling is gaming. That doesnt mean having gambling in the context of an RPG makes sense, maybe it doesnt but its not so obviously outrageous to think Dice, Gaming, and RPG cant exist in the same room. Just explain why but dont assume its a natural conclusion like its mixing oil and water or something
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
MMO´s was always casinos... the advancement from having you betting time to money was a natural one.
Personally i do not really care. If the game does it in a shit way i do not play it.
People are free to spend their money on what they want, people are also free to make dumb choices.
You can't walk into a casino and just use time to place bets. The entire thing depends on money.
I can't believe it needs to be explained but that's the key difference between RNG and a casino.
its not that they are different, its that they are very close to the same thing that it puts into question a person ranting over 'gambling' in a game that effectively is based on fucking dice!
I think the original position needs to be re-thought. Its not completely wrong but it could use some level of perspective
Are you able to tell the difference between sex and prostitution, because one involves a payment and that generates the gulf between the two, even if the activity is the same.
By the "logic" of this thread where concepts like "gambling with time" are being thrown around I just want to be inB4 the inevitable argument that marriage is just like prostitution and costs more
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
MMO´s was always casinos... the advancement from having you betting time to money was a natural one.
Personally i do not really care. If the game does it in a shit way i do not play it.
People are free to spend their money on what they want, people are also free to make dumb choices.
You can't walk into a casino and just use time to place bets. The entire thing depends on money.
I can't believe it needs to be explained but that's the key difference between RNG and a casino.
its not that they are different, its that they are very close to the same thing that it puts into question a person ranting over 'gambling' in a game that effectively is based on fucking dice!
I think the original position needs to be re-thought. Its not completely wrong but it could use some level of perspective
Are you able to tell the difference between sex and prostitution, because one involves a payment and that generates the gulf between the two, even if the activity is the same.
for the 3rd time.
I know gambling and RNG with the use of dice are different I am just illustrating that the proximity between the two is closer than the OP of the subject is suggesting. Do you understand for the 3rd time that I understand that they are different. Do you understand what I mean when I use the phrase 'the proximity is closer' I get a feeling you do not
I am not changing my position on this but you might do well to make a better effort to understand what I am saying when I mean 'promixity is closer than the OP thinks' because ranting about the difference is a waste of time and not related to the core of what I am saying I KNOW THEY ARE DIFFERENT so stop wasting your time with examples
And his point is that the involvement of money makes a drastic difference in these situations... In short, he understands you, he just didagrees.
MMO´s was always casinos... the advancement from having you betting time to money was a natural one.
Personally i do not really care. If the game does it in a shit way i do not play it.
People are free to spend their money on what they want, people are also free to make dumb choices.
You can't walk into a casino and just use time to place bets. The entire thing depends on money.
I can't believe it needs to be explained but that's the key difference between RNG and a casino.
its not that they are different, its that they are very close to the same thing that it puts into question a person ranting over 'gambling' in a game that effectively is based on fucking dice!
I think the original position needs to be re-thought. Its not completely wrong but it could use some level of perspective
Are you able to tell the difference between sex and prostitution, because one involves a payment and that generates the gulf between the two, even if the activity is the same.
By the "logic" of this thread where concepts like "gambling with time" are being thrown around I just want to be inB4 the inevitable argument that marriage is just like prostitution and costs more
the games that we play have two MAIN pillars that make them work. They are the two most important aspects of game play of which if one of them doesnt exist then the game will likely fail. I can go into more detail on how this is known and wear but its a bit much for this conversation. anyway...the two foundations are
1. RNG 2. Player testing out options based on RNG
Now...is 'Gaming' that involves gambling that uses dice like an RPG do the same thing? no
are they light years apart from each other that it should be obvious to a serious conversation what the answers would be? no.. they are close enough (although not supoer close, just close enough) that the conversation warrents to not make assumptions
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
MMO´s was always casinos... the advancement from having you betting time to money was a natural one.
Personally i do not really care. If the game does it in a shit way i do not play it.
People are free to spend their money on what they want, people are also free to make dumb choices.
You can't walk into a casino and just use time to place bets. The entire thing depends on money.
I can't believe it needs to be explained but that's the key difference between RNG and a casino.
its not that they are different, its that they are very close to the same thing that it puts into question a person ranting over 'gambling' in a game that effectively is based on fucking dice!
I think the original position needs to be re-thought. Its not completely wrong but it could use some level of perspective
Are you able to tell the difference between sex and prostitution, because one involves a payment and that generates the gulf between the two, even if the activity is the same.
for the 3rd time.
I know gambling and RNG with the use of dice are different I am just illustrating that the proximity between the two is closer than the OP of the subject is suggesting. Do you understand for the 3rd time that I understand that they are different. Do you understand what I mean when I use the phrase 'the proximity is closer' I get a feeling you do not
I am not changing my position on this but you might do well to make a better effort to understand what I am saying when I mean 'promixity is closer than the OP thinks' because ranting about the difference is a waste of time and not related to the core of what I am saying I KNOW THEY ARE DIFFERENT so stop wasting your time with examples
And his point is that the involvement of money makes a drastic difference in these situations... In short, he understands you, he just didagrees.
interesting point and one I think if very much worth talking about.
Money in a game, the assumption is NO! and yet games outside of the ones we play do have money real money. so why do we think real money in game play is like a rail to never touch. maybe we should. maybe we shouldnt I think its a good conversation to have
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
MMO´s was always casinos... the advancement from having you betting time to money was a natural one.
Personally i do not really care. If the game does it in a shit way i do not play it.
People are free to spend their money on what they want, people are also free to make dumb choices.
You can't walk into a casino and just use time to place bets. The entire thing depends on money.
I can't believe it needs to be explained but that's the key difference between RNG and a casino.
its not that they are different, its that they are very close to the same thing that it puts into question a person ranting over 'gambling' in a game that effectively is based on fucking dice!
I think the original position needs to be re-thought. Its not completely wrong but it could use some level of perspective
Are you able to tell the difference between sex and prostitution, because one involves a payment and that generates the gulf between the two, even if the activity is the same.
for the 3rd time.
I know gambling and RNG with the use of dice are different I am just illustrating that the proximity between the two is closer than the OP of the subject is suggesting. Do you understand for the 3rd time that I understand that they are different. Do you understand what I mean when I use the phrase 'the proximity is closer' I get a feeling you do not
I am not changing my position on this but you might do well to make a better effort to understand what I am saying when I mean 'promixity is closer than the OP thinks' because ranting about the difference is a waste of time and not related to the core of what I am saying I KNOW THEY ARE DIFFERENT so stop wasting your time with examples
And his point is that the involvement of money makes a drastic difference in these situations... In short, he understands you, he just didagrees.
interesting point and one I think if very much worth talking about.
Money in a game, the assumption is NO! and yet games outside of the ones we play do have money real money. so why do we think real money in game play is like a rail to never touch. maybe we should. maybe we shouldnt I think its a good conversation to have
It's almost like the OP started a thread to discuss the involvement of money in MMOs and how they have turned them into casinos.
"You CAN'T buy ships for RL money." - MaxBacon
"classification of games into MMOs is not by rational reasoning" - nariusseldon
LAS VEGAS — The constant ching-ching of money at Las Vegas’ Covenant Casino Church means more than that gamblers are having a good time. It means money is pouring into the Kingdom of God.
Mark Wiltern, for years an unsuccessful pastor on the edge of town, finally sold his modest facility, bought a small space on the famous Strip and secured permits to become a full-fledged casino-church.
“Tithes and offerings weren’t enough to keep the church going,” Wiltern says. “I had to get cash flow. I had to make an impact.”
Not only did attendance double in the first week, but the church’s monthly income soared. People flocked to the “one-armed angel” slot machines lining the sanctuary, so Wiltern added more. Within months he expanded the facility to include every major game and attraction in Sin City.
Covenant Casino Church is perhaps the only congregation in the U.S. that combines the gospel with gaming, and the strategy, from Wiltern’s point of view, has been an unqualified success. On a Sunday afternoon, the building is packed with thousands of weekend travelers throwing dice at the “Holy Craps!” tables and pulling up stools to dozens of “Psalm 21” blackjack games. Whirling lights, horns and whistles give it a casino atmosphere, but circulating among the guests is Wiltern who offers prayer to gamers while they play. At one point he puts his hands on the shoulders of a man sitting at a slot machine. The man weeps, then stands and hugs Wiltern. Later, Wiltern says they’re going to give him back half of his losses.
“We don’t have services now as much as we do ministry on the spot,” he says. “This whole thing has changed my philosophy, big time. Jesus didn’t hold regular meetings in a set place. He walked around and did good works along the way. This is the new marketplace. This is where people are comfortable and ready to hear the gospel.”
Indeed, the sanctuary where services used to be held was converted into an astounding international buffet.
The church strives to stay focused on its mission. On Sundays, waitresses offer communion crackers and grape juice to gamblers where they sit. Lloyd Stewart from Ft. Wayne, Indiana, took a handful of the crackers and pulled the slot machine arm, hoping three angels would click into place, meaning he’d won a “heavenly treasure.” In his bucket of chips was a tract Wiltern placed there a few minutes ago.
“We come here because it reminds us that down deep we’re Christian folks,” Stewart says. “On the one hand you get to gamble and have fun, and on the other, you’re giving to a good cause. Losses are tax-deductible. And the virgin mimosas are better than anything else on the Strip.”
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
MMO´s was always casinos... the advancement from having you betting time to money was a natural one.
Personally i do not really care. If the game does it in a shit way i do not play it.
People are free to spend their money on what they want, people are also free to make dumb choices.
You can't walk into a casino and just use time to place bets. The entire thing depends on money.
I can't believe it needs to be explained but that's the key difference between RNG and a casino.
its not that they are different, its that they are very close to the same thing that it puts into question a person ranting over 'gambling' in a game that effectively is based on fucking dice!
I think the original position needs to be re-thought. Its not completely wrong but it could use some level of perspective
Are you able to tell the difference between sex and prostitution, because one involves a payment and that generates the gulf between the two, even if the activity is the same.
for the 3rd time.
I know gambling and RNG with the use of dice are different I am just illustrating that the proximity between the two is closer than the OP of the subject is suggesting. Do you understand for the 3rd time that I understand that they are different. Do you understand what I mean when I use the phrase 'the proximity is closer' I get a feeling you do not
I am not changing my position on this but you might do well to make a better effort to understand what I am saying when I mean 'promixity is closer than the OP thinks' because ranting about the difference is a waste of time and not related to the core of what I am saying I KNOW THEY ARE DIFFERENT so stop wasting your time with examples
And his point is that the involvement of money makes a drastic difference in these situations... In short, he understands you, he just didagrees.
interesting point and one I think if very much worth talking about.
Money in a game, the assumption is NO! and yet games outside of the ones we play do have money real money. so why do we think real money in game play is like a rail to never touch. maybe we should. maybe we shouldnt I think its a good conversation to have
It's almost like the OP started a thread to discuss the involvement of money in MMOs and how they have turned them into casinos.
I think the hint of what the topic about is in the title of the OP. never the less what I am trying to illustrate is that the concept of having an actual casino in a game that uses actual money is not as an outrageous idea as one might think. its not the kind of game play i personally am attracted to but its not so far out in left field that its to be assume its a insult to gaming.
HOWEVER, I will say if a gamer finds it clearly offensive then they should not play that game and if they would like some help finding a game without casino style loot boxes I can help them
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Where did I imply anything of the sort? A sub buys you time. Erego, developers need you to play as long as possible to make as much money as possible. XP pots and convenience items expedite the player's consuming of content. The goals of the offered product are inherently different. Nothing about a sub, originally, sped up your progression through content or allowed you to bypass content altogether.
Providing such XP/convenience items and attempting to keep players playing as long as possible is the fool's errand. Since one monetization strategy is rooted in shortening the gameplay experience, while the other is interested in lengthening it, the latter is inherently a better fit for what is essentially an activity taken SOLELY to spend time enjoying one's self.
EDIT- mobile site could still use some work reference quotes.
I do agree to an extent, but I think the order is wrong. Before subscriptions publishers just sold games right? Then the mmo came along and they started charging a monthly fee for it with the justification being server and bandwidth costs being astronomical, but those fees never went away when those costs became negligible. They kept charging with the excuse being that it funded content dev and the next xpac, but then they charged for that because, more money.
The entire reason grind was put in was to keep people subscribing for the minimum amount of content effort possible.
Monetization has driven design development since day one year zero. I do agree that in many cases it has become ludicrous and detracts.
It's my opinion or feeling that the only one that I ever felt okay with was just an outright B2P purchase before the internet introduced the idea of ongoing fees and micro-fees.
True. I don't disagree that designers developed with longevity in mind reference subs (this was their cash flow), I just think time sinks befit the nature of the activity more than money sinks.
I wouldn't mind paying a sub again, but as you noted, it couldn't be JUST to take care of server and bandwidth costs, as those are almost negligible compared to overhead for employees and such. It would require GMs in game creating truly dynamic content, something I've yet to see offered on the market as it stands today. Not sure how feasible it is, really.
Where did I imply anything of the sort? A sub buys you time. Erego, developers need you to play as long as possible to make as much money as possible. XP pots and convenience items expedite the player's consuming of content. The goals of the offered product are inherently different. Nothing about a sub, originally, sped up your progression through content or allowed you to bypass content altogether.
Providing such XP/convenience items and attempting to keep players playing as long as possible is the fool's errand. Since one monetization strategy is rooted in shortening the gameplay experience, while the other is interested in lengthening it, the latter is inherently a better fit for what is essentially an activity taken SOLELY to spend time enjoying one's self.
EDIT- mobile site could still use some work reference quotes.
I do agree to an extent, but I think the order is wrong. Before subscriptions publishers just sold games right? Then the mmo came along and they started charging a monthly fee for it with the justification being server and bandwidth costs being astronomical, but those fees never went away when those costs became negligible. They kept charging with the excuse being that it funded content dev and the next xpac, but then they charged for that because, more money.
The entire reason grind was put in was to keep people subscribing for the minimum amount of content effort possible.
Monetization has driven design development since day one year zero. I do agree that in many cases it has become ludicrous and detracts.
It's my opinion or feeling that the only one that I ever felt okay with was just an outright B2P purchase before the internet introduced the idea of ongoing fees and micro-fees.
No the order is still wrong. Before stand-alone MMOs, services like AOL, Compuserve and Genie were charging connectivity fees by the hour not just to play games online but simply to chat.
That was the pre-widespread-internet environment the early MMOs launched in and by comparison, they were a fabulous deal at only $15 month.
You were simply paying for a monthly service because you wanted to be there and play that game and most people didn't have the modern day expectations of continued regularly updated new content you're projecting backwards into them.
What people were paying for was the ability to play online with others....period. I didn't play DAoC expecting new content or epic loot as my motivation for playing and keeping my sub active. I played it because I enjoyed the time I spent playing it as it was.
The fiction is imposing modern benefit cost analysis, given what gaming has now become, on gaming retroactively to why we played the way we played back then. We did not need regular new content nor did we need extra grind to chase the phat loot: we simply played what the game had to offer because playing online with others who shared our interest was fun.
You sound to me like someone who came in late to the genre after all the fucktards with their MBAs had started to pervert them to squeeze the nerds for more cash - something that coincided with WOW's release and the larger audiences that came to play MMOs at that time. Yes they are that way now, but they weren't always.
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
I dont understand why this is a conversation (the conversation active right now)
the reason they do F2P inside of subscription is because Valve released a study of their attempts at this model and it showed a dramatic increase in revenue. Other companies do it now and it appers to be working becuase if it didnt they wouldnt continue to do it.
case closed? or am i confused as usual?
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Go Pantheon. No cash shop, no RNG. Pay a sub and be done with it. Till then I am playing P99. The new MMOs are not winning any of my money. SWToR lost me with their new RNG system. I backed Ashes, Steve seems to be big on no P2W and returning to the sub model. I am burnt out on new MMOs and their many ways they ding you to death.
My wife made this comment back in 2009 right before we got married. She commented on how instead of paying for a game in the store, now I was paying each month to play a game and pay for little things I want in game. She said its like your playing in a casino under the influence of all their little traps. I chuckled and realized the more I thought about, the more I realized how right she was. I do absolutely agree with this assessment and I do find myself spending money on games I enjoy. I am not a whale by any stretch but I spend money on subs and the occasional vanity item.
My wife made this comment back in 2009 right before we got married. She commented on how instead of paying for a game in the store, now I was paying each month to play a game and pay for little things I want in game. She said its like your playing in a casino under the influence of all their little traps. I chuckled and realized the more I thought about, the more I realized how right she was. I do absolutely agree with this assessment and I do find myself spending money on games I enjoy. I am not a whale by any stretch but I spend money on subs and the occasional vanity item.
There is one big difference. In many games, you can play without spending a dime. Try that in a casino.
Comments
Providing such XP/convenience items and attempting to keep players playing as long as possible is the fool's errand. Since one monetization strategy is rooted in shortening the gameplay experience, while the other is interested in lengthening it, the latter is inherently a better fit for what is essentially an activity taken SOLELY to spend time enjoying one's self.
EDIT- mobile site could still use some work reference quotes.
But:
I think that @Torval was describing the abuses of the two systems. With the birth of MMORPG's, subscription fee's and the justification behind them, I was expecting the genre to supply entertaining content as part of that subscription fee, after all it is an easy 25% of the cost of a new AAA game each and every month.
What the industry did with subscriptions was to implement a way to keep their customers playing and paying with a minimal of investment.
The introduction of the expansion pack proved Torval's point.
"Be water my friend" - Bruce Lee
I can't believe it needs to be explained but that's the key difference between RNG and a casino.
"classification of games into MMOs is not by rational reasoning" - nariusseldon
Love Minecraft. And check out my Youtube channel OhCanadaGamer
Try a MUD today at http://www.mudconnect.com/I think the original position needs to be re-thought. Its not completely wrong but it could use some level of perspective
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me
When you kill that boss, you're not paying just to kill that boss. You're paying - in a subscription scenario -(or not paying depending on the game) to play through the game in its entirety, and the money spent doesn't directly correlate to that boss.
My scenario would be more like, you pay everytime you want to kill the boss, for a chance to drop that piece of loot. That's the big difference here.
You are effectively betting money every time you use a loot box. Not when you're killing the boss. No additional money is on the line.
I am saying the proximity to each other is closer than what the subject conversation suggests
jesus H!
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me
"classification of games into MMOs is not by rational reasoning" - nariusseldon
Love Minecraft. And check out my Youtube channel OhCanadaGamer
Try a MUD today at http://www.mudconnect.com/I know gambling and RNG with the use of dice are different I am just illustrating that the proximity between the two is closer than the OP of the subject is suggesting.
Do you understand for the 3rd time that I understand that they are different. Do you understand what I mean when I use the phrase 'the proximity is closer' I get a feeling you do not
I am not changing my position on this but you might do well to make a better effort to understand what I am saying when I mean 'promixity is closer than the OP thinks' because ranting about the difference is a waste of time and not related to the core of what I am saying I KNOW THEY ARE DIFFERENT so stop wasting your time with examples
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me
Unless your hobby is simply spending money... In which case, might I suggest indulging by purchasing things that appreciate in value, so you can later make a profit to fuel your urge to purchase more things? Just a suggestion.
EDIT- Mobile site in general could use some work.
Luckily, i don't need you to like me to enjoy video games. -nariusseldon.
In F2P I think it's more a case of the game's trying to play the player's. -laserit
gambling is gaming.
That doesnt mean having gambling in the context of an RPG makes sense, maybe it doesnt but its not so obviously outrageous to think Dice, Gaming, and RPG cant exist in the same room. Just explain why but dont assume its a natural conclusion like its mixing oil and water or something
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
1. RNG
2. Player testing out options based on RNG
Now...is 'Gaming' that involves gambling that uses dice like an RPG do the same thing? no
are they light years apart from each other that it should be obvious to a serious conversation what the answers would be? no.. they are close enough (although not supoer close, just close enough) that the conversation warrents to not make assumptions
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me
Money in a game, the assumption is NO! and yet games outside of the ones we play do have money real money. so why do we think real money in game play is like a rail to never touch. maybe we should. maybe we shouldnt I think its a good conversation to have
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me
"classification of games into MMOs is not by rational reasoning" - nariusseldon
Love Minecraft. And check out my Youtube channel OhCanadaGamer
Try a MUD today at http://www.mudconnect.com/LAS VEGAS — The constant ching-ching of money at Las Vegas’ Covenant Casino Church means more than that gamblers are having a good time. It means money is pouring into the Kingdom of God.
Mark Wiltern, for years an unsuccessful pastor on the edge of town, finally sold his modest facility, bought a small space on the famous Strip and secured permits to become a full-fledged casino-church.
“Tithes and offerings weren’t enough to keep the church going,” Wiltern says. “I had to get cash flow. I had to make an impact.”
Not only did attendance double in the first week, but the church’s monthly income soared. People flocked to the “one-armed angel” slot machines lining the sanctuary, so Wiltern added more. Within months he expanded the facility to include every major game and attraction in Sin City.
Covenant Casino Church is perhaps the only congregation in the U.S. that combines the gospel with gaming, and the strategy, from Wiltern’s point of view, has been an unqualified success. On a Sunday afternoon, the building is packed with thousands of weekend travelers throwing dice at the “Holy Craps!” tables and pulling up stools to dozens of “Psalm 21” blackjack games. Whirling lights, horns and whistles give it a casino atmosphere, but circulating among the guests is Wiltern who offers prayer to gamers while they play. At one point he puts his hands on the shoulders of a man sitting at a slot machine. The man weeps, then stands and hugs Wiltern. Later, Wiltern says they’re going to give him back half of his losses.
“We don’t have services now as much as we do ministry on the spot,” he says. “This whole thing has changed my philosophy, big time. Jesus didn’t hold regular meetings in a set place. He walked around and did good works along the way. This is the new marketplace. This is where people are comfortable and ready to hear the gospel.”
Indeed, the sanctuary where services used to be held was converted into an astounding international buffet.
The church strives to stay focused on its mission. On Sundays, waitresses offer communion crackers and grape juice to gamblers where they sit. Lloyd Stewart from Ft. Wayne, Indiana, took a handful of the crackers and pulled the slot machine arm, hoping three angels would click into place, meaning he’d won a “heavenly treasure.” In his bucket of chips was a tract Wiltern placed there a few minutes ago.
“We come here because it reminds us that down deep we’re Christian folks,” Stewart says. “On the one hand you get to gamble and have fun, and on the other, you’re giving to a good cause. Losses are tax-deductible. And the virgin mimosas are better than anything else on the Strip.”
Yes, yes I know it;s only Larknews...still. http://www.larknews.com/archives/65
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
never the less what I am trying to illustrate is that the concept of having an actual casino in a game that uses actual money is not as an outrageous idea as one might think. its not the kind of game play i personally am attracted to but its not so far out in left field that its to be assume its a insult to gaming.
HOWEVER, I will say if a gamer finds it clearly offensive then they should not play that game and if they would like some help finding a game without casino style loot boxes I can help them
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me
I wouldn't mind paying a sub again, but as you noted, it couldn't be JUST to take care of server and bandwidth costs, as those are almost negligible compared to overhead for employees and such. It would require GMs in game creating truly dynamic content, something I've yet to see offered on the market as it stands today. Not sure how feasible it is, really.
That was the pre-widespread-internet environment the early MMOs launched in and by comparison, they were a fabulous deal at only $15 month.
You were simply paying for a monthly service because you wanted to be there and play that game and most people didn't have the modern day expectations of continued regularly updated new content you're projecting backwards into them.
What people were paying for was the ability to play online with others....period. I didn't play DAoC expecting new content or epic loot as my motivation for playing and keeping my sub active. I played it because I enjoyed the time I spent playing it as it was.
The fiction is imposing modern benefit cost analysis, given what gaming has now become, on gaming retroactively to why we played the way we played back then. We did not need regular new content nor did we need extra grind to chase the phat loot: we simply played what the game had to offer because playing online with others who shared our interest was fun.
You sound to me like someone who came in late to the genre after all the fucktards with their MBAs had started to pervert them to squeeze the nerds for more cash - something that coincided with WOW's release and the larger audiences that came to play MMOs at that time. Yes they are that way now, but they weren't always.
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
the reason they do F2P inside of subscription is because Valve released a study of their attempts at this model and it showed a dramatic increase in revenue. Other companies do it now and it appers to be working becuase if it didnt they wouldnt continue to do it.
case closed? or am i confused as usual?
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me
My wife made this comment back in 2009 right before we got married. She commented on how instead of paying for a game in the store, now I was paying each month to play a game and pay for little things I want in game. She said its like your playing in a casino under the influence of all their little traps. I chuckled and realized the more I thought about, the more I realized how right she was. I do absolutely agree with this assessment and I do find myself spending money on games I enjoy. I am not a whale by any stretch but I spend money on subs and the occasional vanity item.