REAL NEW - NEWS?*

Wizbuiz

My mmorpg gene is starving.

When are u actually gonna show us something new, raidcontent, fighting dragons, mad bosses, enigmatic gear. The mmorpg market is dry as an old pus** and ur direhard fans will accept waiting 10 more years. But ur diehard fans are the poor fucks in the community, we the old mmorpg gamers who is now loaded need our money spend on a good MMORPG, the sooner u release this drug the more dominant u will become once quality mmorpgs of the old starts popping up.

Show us something that makes u deserve that second spot on most anticipated game on mmorpg.com

Wizardry

sigh...i also wait and wait but i am patient.

Sadly you pointed at the very blemish that is game design.I  don't care about superficial shallow minded gaming like Bosses and loot,i want a role playing ,living world experience.

As well i want immersion,i do not want to see stupid ideas that do not look right in the game or outside the game,like dungeon finders or anything that is not plausibly realistic.
We SHOULD be living in the world like we really are,that does not mean instant group up in some dungeon to fight through trash to get to some Boss that doesn't even belong there,things NEED to make sense.

I actually do not think Brad can pull off the game i want to play because immersion,plausible,living world,real life activities all take a ton of work.I am not into playing Eq1 or Eq2 or VG,those games were ok for back in the day,a young mmorpg industry but they are not good anymore,or i would be playing them.Example i STILL play FFXI,not because the graphics are good enough but it does 90% everything else better than every mmorpg on the market.

The problem area in designing these games is everything "to speed up design"entails making a template looking game,meaning everything is the same basic structure no matter where you go.I like to see true differences race to race,village to village ,different currencies,different factions all with DIFFERENT wants,needs and not some one dimensional template of "do quests receive good faction points".

Wizardry

Example of the kind of depth i seek.

WHY is every single Throm on the same leash,why can't there be a few Throm who give negative faction,perhaps they offer me a choice to dethrone the Throm leader,then that NPC becomes the leader and starts a whole new chain of events.

To me running through the same patterns over and over is just way too boring,it was fun at one time,but after having done the same ideas thousands of times ,i need something fresh...new.

I want to see something similar to the way VG started,an event like your captured on a ship and have to fight your way out.Or how about weekly or daily invasions by certain races that perhaps wander around like nomads.Maybe they happen to wander into a village,if you don't protect the npc's within they are captured ,therefore losing use of their wares/shops etc etc.You then have to rescue them via a party or solo whatever.That can also have a secret hidden favor among npc's,after rescuing 10 or so they will offer you something unique,a service a ware for sale who knows.

Even better>>>ZERO hand holding,nothing is ever just given or said,tons of secrets including secret crafts,secret areas,far away hidden npc with secret unlocks etc etc.
Give us EXCITING,Exploration,an ADVENTURE.

Mendel

I'm actually glad that there is no new information for Pantheon.  In my opinion, frankly, VR has messed up with a lot of the information they have released.  Here's a brief example.

VR has released information about 'a feature called XName', but have no specific details about how this feature works.  That vagueness leaves the fan base, critics and anyone else watching this development project to assign some imagined functional details to this feature, often based on nothing more than a literal interpretation of the word 'XName'.  When questioned, VR spokesmen are unable to provide those details until much later.  The community may actually be correct with their guesses, but when they aren't, expectations about the game are already developed in ways that the game will never deliver.

VR could simply close this speculation window by waiting until they can announce 'a feature called XName, and it works this way'.  No opportunity for incorrect guesses by the community, no false expectations built.  I hope they are doing that.  Withholding information is less harmful than allowing players ideas to spoil expectations of the end product.  People want games that the players don't consider disappointing.  That *should* apply to VR more than the average gamer.  Previously, it doesn't appear to be that way.

Like I said, maybe silence is VR attempting to proactively control the expectations for the game Pantheon.  That would be a very good thing, leading to satisfied customers in the long term, even though it may annoy some in the short term.

Zindaihas

As much as I want to know about the details of this game, reading about it isn't the same as playing it.  No amount of information is going to fill that gap.  So I just wait patiently and occupy my free time with other things.  When it comes out, either I'll like it or I won't.  In the meantime, I keep tabs on it and there is enough there to hold my interest at this point.

delete5230

I'm all in for this game, but haven't seen a city yet, just a small resource village in one dev footage. I think Pantheon has a long way to go....... I'll wait, it's more important that it releases full.

Tokken

patience is running out... need more info!

Wizardry

Catch 22,i don't want to know anything,but then how would i know if i want to play....TRUST ?

Well i definitely have some faith in Brad,i know he can make a decent game,all depends on how much he has learned over the years and how much his team is capable of doing.

Wizardry

This reminds me of what happened with Vanguard and i did not like it one bit.

Brad was one of the VERY few devs willing to step up and communicate,we don't see anyone from Blizzard do this,they only make appearances to deliver marketing/advertising crap.

So Brad was willing to discuss things but the community here was volatile,giving him no chance ,already a community committed to lynching.

Funny because he was TRYING to advance the genre,trying to give us better graphics with larger views and even added a few new ideas.Blizzard got all the praise while doing NOTHING for the industry ,except make money something Vanguard had little of.
Even to this day i have VG as a top 5/6/7 game of all time in the mmorpg genre Wow is in around 8+ based on what a game is doing NOT on numbers or money.

If Blizzard had VG's money and VG had Blizzard's it would likely be a laughing ordeal,but guess what,people would have still played Wow even if a low budget unpolished mess.What is the point of my ramble,well easy,Brad has to fight a massive uphill battle,even if Pantheon is 10x better than Wow ,those fanbois will continue to support Blizzard and will not give Pantheon a fair look,they did that with EQ2 so why would it change now?

jpedrote52

Mendel said:

I'm actually glad that there is no new information for Pantheon.  In my opinion, frankly, VR has messed up with a lot of the information they have released.  Here's a brief example.

VR has released information about 'a feature called XName', but have no specific details about how this feature works.  That vagueness leaves the fan base, critics and anyone else watching this development project to assign some imagined functional details to this feature, often based on nothing more than a literal interpretation of the word 'XName'.  When questioned, VR spokesmen are unable to provide those details until much later.  The community may actually be correct with their guesses, but when they aren't, expectations about the game are already developed in ways that the game will never deliver.

VR could simply close this speculation window by waiting until they can announce 'a feature called XName, and it works this way'.  No opportunity for incorrect guesses by the community, no false expectations built.  I hope they are doing that.  Withholding information is less harmful than allowing players ideas to spoil expectations of the end product.  People want games that the players don't consider disappointing.  That *should* apply to VR more than the average gamer.  Previously, it doesn't appear to be that way.

Like I said, maybe silence is VR attempting to proactively control the expectations for the game Pantheon.  That would be a very good thing, leading to satisfied customers in the long term, even though it may annoy some in the short term.

Also, whenever a mechanics is explained on paper with lots of details, player will jump the gun and star pointing out flaws how it does not work or how it will fail, this type of feedback is garbage because the players are not experiencing the game, they're only assuming how it's going to work with almost 0 basis for their arguments

Warlyx

i just want to see summoner in action

Thebeasttt

Polish is important but so are deadlines and milestones. Albion took so long, people stopped caring by the time it released. Remember when visionary estimated a 2017 release.....I'll be surprised if it releases by 2019 now lol.

Kyleran

Thebeasttt said:

Polish is important but so are deadlines and milestones. Albion took so long, people stopped caring by the time it released. Remember when visionary estimated a 2017 release.....I'll be surprised if it releases by 2019 now lol.

Wait, wut? When Albion launched recently they were over whelmed by the demand,  in what reality did people forget about it.

Zindaihas

Thebeasttt said:

Polish is important but so are deadlines and milestones. Albion took so long, people stopped caring by the time it released. Remember when visionary estimated a 2017 release.....I'll be surprised if it releases by 2019 now lol.

There definitely is a "fatigue-factor" involved with development time.  I can't speak about Albion because I never followed that game.  But does anyone remember a game called DarkFall?  When I first heard about that game and started studying it, it sounded to me like it might be the greatest MMO of all-time.  Almost everything I read about it sounded great.  So I waited anxiously for it to be released.  And waited...and waited...and waited.  I think it finally did get released, but it took so long, I lost interest in it after about four years of development.

VR should definitely not release Pantheon before it's done, but they should also not think they have an indefinite period of time to complete it.  Once the cat's out of the bag, they have to get it done before its followers get burned out.

Theocritus

This is why it used to be nice to just do open betas for a month or two then launch the game....By the time most of these games release now I will have zero interest in them, nor will many that paid their early access and founders packs.

Sovrath

Maybe this is more an argument for having game companies NOT speak to players until such time as they can start marketing with a recently close release.

Players seem to be kids on christmas eve.

Besides the fact that if they mention one thing and it doesn't work and they need to change it players get all bent out of shape.

Just better to have a clearer vision of what the game will be, do some betas, tweak it and then release.

Sovrath

DMKano said:

Torval said:

DMKano said:

Its hard to keep expectations in check, but its better than getting all hyped up and being completely let down.

Its better to be realistic as the highest likelyhood is that game ends up mediocre. If it ends up being better, than thats a nice surprise.

This is why I think closed development with NDA access is the best way to go. Crowd funded transparent development has a lot of baggage.

It has a lot of trial and error exposed to public scrutiny.

A good example I can personally remember was Troves original design feature was that all gear earned was going to be wiped every month. On paper it seemed doable, as the core concept was not a gear-centric game.

 In practice once the devs tried this out - it was universally hated by the entire alpha playerbase.

So that core concept was completely scrapped, and Trove did a 180 to be a gear progression based game.

Open development is like that - if you are not ready to show your dirty laundry to the world.... dont do it

If they went ahead and made it a game that didn't have gear progression do you think it would have done well?

Players tend to be complainy and are afraid of change. You can tell whenever someone talks about a permadeath or full looting game:

A, it wouldn't be a game for them as it would be for another demographic but yet they all get "the shakes" as if they are going to be forced to play it or that its very existence will somehow be a threat to them, and

B, the game is not about gear therefore losing gear is not an issue. Yet players approach it like they are losing their purples or some such thing.

Zuljan

Just remember a few months ago when we all felt the same way about the stinted flow of news (then the huge stream took place). They've made it clear on the private forums they've been working their ass off, with entirely new lighting and shading currently being added (so Kilsin has been told to stop releasing screenshots until the graphic updates are implemented). They're pouring their time into readying this thing for testing, so I wouldn't be surprised if the testing announcement comes before the next stream does, but who knows. There have been people voicing their concern for the lack of keystone updates lately, and they've promised to give more details in the upcoming newsletter on the day-to-day flow/progress (even if it is minute).

Mendel

DMKano said:

<snip>

C. The devs also hated the mechanic and decided to change it.

Ultimately thats what happened - sometimes devs just have to admit that some of their ideas are not good - say "we made a mistake", correct it and move on.

<snip>

While I agree that this happens a lot, I think we also see a lot of the case where the Devs loved the mechanic and refused to change it, even to the detriment of their game.  Ego and 'we made a mistake' seem to be at complete odds, and I don't think I've seen enough of the acceptance of errors from enough developers.  We need more acknowledgement of mistakes and less ego.

Zuljan

DMKano said:

Mendel said:

DMKano said:

<snip>

C. The devs also hated the mechanic and decided to change it.

Ultimately thats what happened - sometimes devs just have to admit that some of their ideas are not good - say "we made a mistake", correct it and move on.

<snip>

While I agree that this happens a lot, I think we also see a lot of the case where the Devs loved the mechanic and refused to change it, even to the detriment of their game.  Ego and 'we made a mistake' seem to be at complete odds, and I don't think I've seen enough of the acceptance of errors from enough developers.  We need more acknowledgement of mistakes and less ego.

Heh if you watch the Trove announcement video from Nov 15, 2013 - the lead designer at the time Avarem (Andrew Krausnick) says this: - skip to about 1:55

"" 


"We don't think that our ideas are not necessarily the best ideas - we are good at trading ideas and putting them together into a cohesive whole, but the ideas themselves can come from anywhere"

And Trove certaintly has been pretty successful when it comes to this - as most dungeons, lairs, costumes, mounts are all made by the community. The devs at this point have probably created less than 10% of all the content in Trove.

Also the direction of the game was hugely driven by community - for better or worse - but it did happen. And it's still happening.

Wow - in 2 months - I am coming up on 4 years of actively playing Trove... crazy. Been there since Alpha 0.0.1 and never stopped. 

I did the pay to win Trove thing when it first hit PSN, 1200+ magic find had the lego dragon all towers cleared etc...all in about a months time...but 4 years...my god that had to be a LOT of on and off playing lol

Kayo83

lol same here, getting hungry for more recently. How long between streams usually? Feels like its time -_-

Eh... they did say they were working on new shaders and what not so it might be longer than usual Should look very nice when it finally arrives though. That and the typical other art improvements theyve been working on.

Hoping they get to another stream by the end of the year at least.

dcutbi001

There are a few things that are somewhat basic that I'm surprised we have not seen yet. At the top of that list, for me anyways, are the basic class descriptions. It seems like the lore master should have enough detail on most of the classes that there should be more information. I don't expect them to have a full spell list published, but basic information like the general role, and maybe a few examples of staple abilities should be available.