Starting Cities

Amathe

Here is one way to resolve the issue.

1. Let players start their character out in any city;

2. If the city is hostile to your race and class, upon log in (to an empty room) you will have a clickable temporary disguise in your backpack;

3. The disguise allows you to move about the city without being attacked on the basis of your faction;

4. You will appear to be someone indigenous to that city (so if you are an orc in a hobbit city, you will appear to be a hobbit);

5. Again, the disguise is temporary (maybe for just 24 hours, or to level 5 - something short);

6. Now you can find your friends in town, adventure with them some out in the noobie area, and head out to discover other places and cities together (with all the intended challenges).

No fast travel required. 

Sovrath

Amathe said:

Here is one way to resolve the issue.

1. Let players start their character out in any city;

2. If the city is hostile to your race and class, upon log in (to an empty room) you will have a clickable temporary disguise in your backpack;

3. The disguise allows you to move about the city without being attacked on the basis of your faction;

4. You will appear to be someone indigenous to that city (so if you are an orc in a hobbit city, you will appear to be a hobbit);

5. Again, the disguise is temporary (maybe for just 24 hours, or to level 5 - something short);

6. Now you can find your friends in town, adventure with them some out in the noobie area, and head out to discover other places and cities together (with all the intended challenges).

No fast travel required. 

I would say there shouldn't be a disguise but that the player has to sneak, hide, skulk in order to get around OR if there is a disguise then in certain instances there is a chance someone might see through it.

If someone is in a hostile city then the game play should reflect that. That could actually be very exciting.

Mendel

Amathe said:

Here is one way to resolve the issue.

1. Let players start their character out in any city;

2. If the city is hostile to your race and class, upon log in (to an empty room) you will have a clickable temporary disguise in your backpack;

3. The disguise allows you to move about the city without being attacked on the basis of your faction;

4. You will appear to be someone indigenous to that city (so if you are an orc in a hobbit city, you will appear to be a hobbit);

5. Again, the disguise is temporary (maybe for just 24 hours, or to level 5 - something short);

6. Now you can find your friends in town, adventure with them some out in the noobie area, and head out to discover other places and cities together (with all the intended challenges).

No fast travel required. 

I like the idea of a temporary disguise.  I'd cap it at level 2 or 2 hours, though.  And if people want hardcore, have the default bind be in that room.  This would give the character 2 hours to find a bind in a safer place, or give them a chance to learn the local NPCs for when they have to navigate past the locals.  I would even consider adding a 'cost' to the disguise, in the form of an XP penalty, or a preexisting quest that has a negative effect until completed (for orcs, report to the Orc Ambassador).

I don't like having in-game skills such as sneak, hide, go invisible, etc., as @Sovrath said, because that puts these skills / tools in the hands of 1st level characters.  I feel these abilities are more advanced than entry level skills.

Zuljan

Sovrath said:

Amathe said:

Here is one way to resolve the issue.

1. Let players start their character out in any city;

2. If the city is hostile to your race and class, upon log in (to an empty room) you will have a clickable temporary disguise in your backpack;

3. The disguise allows you to move about the city without being attacked on the basis of your faction;

4. You will appear to be someone indigenous to that city (so if you are an orc in a hobbit city, you will appear to be a hobbit);

5. Again, the disguise is temporary (maybe for just 24 hours, or to level 5 - something short);

6. Now you can find your friends in town, adventure with them some out in the noobie area, and head out to discover other places and cities together (with all the intended challenges).

No fast travel required. 

I would say there shouldn't be a disguise but that the player has to sneak, hide, skulk in order to get around OR if there is a disguise then in certain instances there is a chance someone might see through it.

If someone is in a hostile city then the game play should reflect that. That could actually be very exciting.

I actually really like this concept. If executed properly, it still plays into the risk vs reward style of Pantheon as well. Just passed this along to the devs. Nice one boys

Amathe

Rhoklaw said:

Please stop trying to play victim in your own thread. 

As the song says. It's my party and I'll cry if I want to. 

Sovrath

Mendel said:

Amathe said:

Here is one way to resolve the issue.

1. Let players start their character out in any city;

2. If the city is hostile to your race and class, upon log in (to an empty room) you will have a clickable temporary disguise in your backpack;

3. The disguise allows you to move about the city without being attacked on the basis of your faction;

4. You will appear to be someone indigenous to that city (so if you are an orc in a hobbit city, you will appear to be a hobbit);

5. Again, the disguise is temporary (maybe for just 24 hours, or to level 5 - something short);

6. Now you can find your friends in town, adventure with them some out in the noobie area, and head out to discover other places and cities together (with all the intended challenges).

No fast travel required. 

I like the idea of a temporary disguise.  I'd cap it at level 2 or 2 hours, though.  And if people want hardcore, have the default bind be in that room.  This would give the character 2 hours to find a bind in a safer place, or give them a chance to learn the local NPCs for when they have to navigate past the locals.  I would even consider adding a 'cost' to the disguise, in the form of an XP penalty, or a preexisting quest that has a negative effect until completed (for orcs, report to the Orc Ambassador).

I don't like having in-game skills such as sneak, hide, go invisible, etc., as @Sovrath said, because that puts these skills / tools in the hands of 1st level characters.  I feel these abilities are more advanced than entry level skills.

Not really "sneaking" in the way you are thinking.

More like Dungeons and Dragon's Online or Elder Scrolls Online where it's not "a skill" but something anyone can do.

Mendel

Sovrath said:

Mendel said:

Amathe said:

Here is one way to resolve the issue.

1. Let players start their character out in any city;

2. If the city is hostile to your race and class, upon log in (to an empty room) you will have a clickable temporary disguise in your backpack;

3. The disguise allows you to move about the city without being attacked on the basis of your faction;

4. You will appear to be someone indigenous to that city (so if you are an orc in a hobbit city, you will appear to be a hobbit);

5. Again, the disguise is temporary (maybe for just 24 hours, or to level 5 - something short);

6. Now you can find your friends in town, adventure with them some out in the noobie area, and head out to discover other places and cities together (with all the intended challenges).

No fast travel required. 

I like the idea of a temporary disguise.  I'd cap it at level 2 or 2 hours, though.  And if people want hardcore, have the default bind be in that room.  This would give the character 2 hours to find a bind in a safer place, or give them a chance to learn the local NPCs for when they have to navigate past the locals.  I would even consider adding a 'cost' to the disguise, in the form of an XP penalty, or a preexisting quest that has a negative effect until completed (for orcs, report to the Orc Ambassador).

I don't like having in-game skills such as sneak, hide, go invisible, etc., as @Sovrath said, because that puts these skills / tools in the hands of 1st level characters.  I feel these abilities are more advanced than entry level skills.

Not really "sneaking" in the way you are thinking.

More like Dungeons and Dragon's Online or Elder Scrolls Online where it's not "a skill" but something anyone can do.

Sadly, this game is being made by Brad.  Sneaking has always been an in-game skill for him, and I've seen nothing to suggest that he is open to changing.  More likely, if it was done that way in EQ or VG, that's the way it will be in Pantheon.  (For the record, I like DDO and ESO and that way of sneaking far better than a skill).

Dullahan

Amathe said:

Here is one way to resolve the issue.

1. Let players start their character out in any city;

2. If the city is hostile to your race and class, upon log in (to an empty room) you will have a clickable temporary disguise in your backpack;

3. The disguise allows you to move about the city without being attacked on the basis of your faction;

4. You will appear to be someone indigenous to that city (so if you are an orc in a hobbit city, you will appear to be a hobbit);

5. Again, the disguise is temporary (maybe for just 24 hours, or to level 5 - something short);

6. Now you can find your friends in town, adventure with them some out in the noobie area, and head out to discover other places and cities together (with all the intended challenges).

No fast travel required. 

I'll explain why that would have a negative impact on the game, even if it's just a 1 time thing and not a symptom of a bigger problem.

First, in a virtual world, the player should have to adapt - not the world.

A proper world has rules, history and lore. The player should ignore them at their own peril. They definitely shouldn't encourage people to bypass that aspect of the game, or people will miss a big part of the narrative created to shape your experience as a player of a certain race, which is meant to connect the player to the world.

If the lore establishes that a people or collective of people start out in an area, it's up to them to depart on their own and accept the risks. Automatically placing them in a different city contrary to lore, is fast travel.

In fact, it's more than just fast travel. You want the game to bend multiple rules, including giving you instant access to an area that should be off limits and allowing your first level novice character to fool guards and inhabitants (as well as other players). Now we're not only disregarding lore, but the player is given the false impression that the inhabitants of the world are stupid, that the backstory doesn't matter, all while creating the expectation that concessions will be made when you don't want to play by the rules.

All this also assumes that this won't lead to other problems down the road, like training, acquisition of new abilities, unique racial quests, faction benefits and other things that may not be available anywhere else.

I'm sure this of course seems like another extreme assessment or taking you're suggestions out of context, but that's because you've become too accustomed to mmos as they currently exist.

svann

I really dont like the idea that any race can freely start out in any city without penalty.  I think that when you do that then people start asking "what is the best city to start in"?  Then the more people that go there the more incentive there is for everyone to go there because thats where all the groups are.

Would you be happy if you were free to start in any city but with enough of a penalty to disincentivize starter city shopping for the majority of players?

Dullahan

svann said:

I really dont like the idea that any race can freely start out in any city without penalty.  I think that when you do that then people start asking "what is the best city to start in"?  Then the more people that go there the more incentive there is for everyone to go there because thats where all the groups are.

Would you be happy if you were free to start in any city but with enough of a penalty to disincentivize starter city shopping for the majority of players?

They already can by creating a character of a different race. If they want to be a different race, they should be able to travel. The game just shouldn't do it for them, because that suggests that what was created for players of that race do not matter, and that it's all generic. In most games it is, but it shouldn't be.

Amathe

svann said:

Would you be happy if you were free to start in any city but with enough of a penalty to disincentivize starter city shopping for the majority of players?

Yes. But there is already a penalty. If you are an orc starting in an elf city in disquise, you won't have access there to orc oriented quests, orc lore, orc class related things, etc. Basically, for the privilege of grouping with friends to kill snakes and rats in the noobie yard, you miss out or postpone some things until you journey to your own capital.

svann

Amathe said:

svann said:

Would you be happy if you were free to start in any city but with enough of a penalty to disincentivize starter city shopping for the majority of players?

Yes. But there is already a penalty. If you are an orc starting in an elf city in disquise, you won't have access there to orc oriented quests, orc lore, orc class related things, etc. Basically, for the privilege of grouping with friends to kill snakes and rats in the noobie yard, you miss out or postpone some things until you journey to your own capital.

So you would have elf city quests be off limits to all other races.  They could probably do that, but I dont think many would find that to be acceptable. Sure maybe orc sounds reasonable, but hobbits cant do quests for elfs?  That doesnt seem right so far as lore goes.  And the people that actually travel from one city to another would say its not fair.  They get cutoff from quests just so you can have easy access to another city.  No I would say thats not a reasonable penalty, and I dont think they would implement it. 

And an orc disguised as a hobbit is absurd.  Or was that what you were going for?  Are you just trolling yanking our chain?

Amathe

What I said was that a hobbit town would not have orc oriented quests. There could of course be some  general quests. Bear in mind, however, that this is meant to be temporary. It is only to facilitate new players meeting up. Not for orcs to settle in and live in the Shire.

The disquise would be magic, i.e a glamor. It is no more absurd than any other use of magic.

Your dislike of the idea does not make me a troll. 

Kyleran

Rhoklaw said:

I remember when EQ2 came out and they had the Betrayal quests for good / evil factions to change sides. It was more of a grind than anything else, but eventually you would be allowed to live in opposing cities and start a new life. However, that doesn't really fix the problem of which city you start in. To be honest, I don't think they've specified who spawns at which cities. Chances are, this whole argument might have simply been for naught, until we get an official answer.

The entire argument has almost definitely been for naught,  I'm sure they already have a design firmly in mind (if not in place already) regarding where players can start and if there will be many (or any) fast travel options in game.

svann

Amathe said:

What I said was that a hobbit town would not have orc oriented quests. There could of course be some  general quests. Bear in mind, however, that this is meant to be temporary. It is only to facilitate new players meeting up. Not for orcs to settle in and live in the Shire.

The disquise would be magic, i.e a glamor. It is no more absurd than any other use of magic.

Your dislike of the idea does not make me a troll. 

Ok you said disguise but you meant illusion.  Disguises can be used by anyone but they cant make a troll look like a hobbit.  Illusions are high level spells.  And if the orc is illusioned as a hobbit then what explanation is there for him not being able to do hobbit quests?

TwoTubes

Rhoklaw said:

To be honest, I don't think they've specified who spawns at which cities.

That information has been available for over a year at least...

Wilds End=Halflings

Skargul=Skar

Syronai's Rest=Myr

Thronefast=Human

Faerthale=Elves

Broken Maw=Ogre

That leaves Archai and Dwarves and Gnomes on Whitethaw (it's been awhile since I read it but there are references in the lore to where their racial cities are specifically, we just don't have a map yet.)  

3 races per continent was the original plan.

At this point they are so far behind schedule that I highly doubt we will see Whitethaw on release...but the other racial cities should still be accurate.

Nightbringe1

Amathe said:

Rhoklaw said:

Please stop trying to play victim in your own thread. 

As the song says. It's my party and I'll cry if I want to. 

Only if you have the skill and determination to get to your party.

Wizardry

I just want to start in a city,where i suspect we will start or even a starter isle is ok with me as well.

Just don't drop me down in the middle of nowhere with no plausible reason with an NPC with a yellow marker over it's head,i would scream bloody murder and remove the game so fast,even the registry keys would disappear.
I am not a big fan of linear gameplay,connect the dots questing but as long as it looks immersive,no markers i am ok with it.I would love to see noob spots/npcs remain important to  the game throughout,example we have to constantly visit npc's and talk to them,maybe a quest opens up 20 levels later.

Wizardry

One of my biggest concerns is the game code.I don't want to see people data mining information they should not have,it will ruin the entire game for everyone,this to me is far more important than where or what city i start in.As well a repeat of Vanguard where i am working my ass off as a noob only to see a few players buying rares from rmt then controlling the early market with the best items.

I want to know the entire game is a leveling playing field,also why cash shops are huge concern for me as well.So yeah the starting areas,really are low on the totem pole,i would be satisfied with players starting anywhere they like but with small perks as done in FFXI.Example if your an Orc and start in an Orc city,you get 1-2 starting items related to ORC lore,if you start in a non Orc area,you get nothing.

Nightbringe1

Wizardry said:

I just want to start in a city,where i suspect we will start or even a starter isle is ok with me as well.

Just don't drop me down in the middle of nowhere with no plausible reason with an NPC with a yellow marker over it's head,i would scream bloody murder and remove the game so fast,even the registry keys would disappear.
I am not a big fan of linear gameplay,connect the dots questing but as long as it looks immersive,no markers i am ok with it.I would love to see noob spots/npcs remain important to  the game throughout,example we have to constantly visit npc's and talk to them,maybe a quest opens up 20 levels later.

Nobody is talking about characters starting in the middle of nowhere.

People are complaining because they want a free ride to any possible starting area in the world, completely negating the concept of racial starting cities.

Kyleran

Nightbringe1 said:

Wizardry said:

I just want to start in a city,where i suspect we will start or even a starter isle is ok with me as well.

Just don't drop me down in the middle of nowhere with no plausible reason with an NPC with a yellow marker over it's head,i would scream bloody murder and remove the game so fast,even the registry keys would disappear.
I am not a big fan of linear gameplay,connect the dots questing but as long as it looks immersive,no markers i am ok with it.I would love to see noob spots/npcs remain important to  the game throughout,example we have to constantly visit npc's and talk to them,maybe a quest opens up 20 levels later.

Nobody is talking about characters starting in the middle of nowhere.

People are complaining because they want a free ride to any possible starting area in the world, completely negating the concept of racial starting cities.

Truthfully, I'd sort of like starting in the middle of no where, with the time honored amnesia backstory, no idea who I am, or was, and a clean slate to forge my destiny.

From there I might wander into a dwarves town, and being an Orc they might throw me into prison, or make me a slave from which I'd have to escape.

Or I might go another direction and run into a troll village,  where I might be tolerated, if not necessarily warmly welcomed.

MadFrenchie

Nightbringe1 said:

Wizardry said:

I just want to start in a city,where i suspect we will start or even a starter isle is ok with me as well.

Just don't drop me down in the middle of nowhere with no plausible reason with an NPC with a yellow marker over it's head,i would scream bloody murder and remove the game so fast,even the registry keys would disappear.
I am not a big fan of linear gameplay,connect the dots questing but as long as it looks immersive,no markers i am ok with it.I would love to see noob spots/npcs remain important to  the game throughout,example we have to constantly visit npc's and talk to them,maybe a quest opens up 20 levels later.

Nobody is talking about characters starting in the middle of nowhere.

People are complaining because they want a free ride to any possible starting area in the world, completely negating the concept of racial starting cities.

Complaining?  No.  Trying to be realistic in approaching the issue without a strictly purist view that will likely turn more people off than I think you guys are admitting?  Yes.

Dullahan

Kyleran said:

Nightbringe1 said:

Wizardry said:

I just want to start in a city,where i suspect we will start or even a starter isle is ok with me as well.

Just don't drop me down in the middle of nowhere with no plausible reason with an NPC with a yellow marker over it's head,i would scream bloody murder and remove the game so fast,even the registry keys would disappear.
I am not a big fan of linear gameplay,connect the dots questing but as long as it looks immersive,no markers i am ok with it.I would love to see noob spots/npcs remain important to  the game throughout,example we have to constantly visit npc's and talk to them,maybe a quest opens up 20 levels later.

Nobody is talking about characters starting in the middle of nowhere.

People are complaining because they want a free ride to any possible starting area in the world, completely negating the concept of racial starting cities.

Truthfully, I'd sort of like starting in the middle of no where, with the time honored amnesia backstory, no idea who I am, or was, and a clean slate to forge my destiny.

From there I might wander into a dwarves town, and being an Orc they might throw me into prison, or make me a slave from which I'd have to escape.

Or I might go another direction and run into a troll village,  where I might be tolerated, if not necessarily warmly welcomed.

With this beginning, you also have your race, sex and appearance randomly generated.

Nightbringe1

MadFrenchie said:

Nightbringe1 said:

Wizardry said:

I just want to start in a city,where i suspect we will start or even a starter isle is ok with me as well.

Just don't drop me down in the middle of nowhere with no plausible reason with an NPC with a yellow marker over it's head,i would scream bloody murder and remove the game so fast,even the registry keys would disappear.
I am not a big fan of linear gameplay,connect the dots questing but as long as it looks immersive,no markers i am ok with it.I would love to see noob spots/npcs remain important to  the game throughout,example we have to constantly visit npc's and talk to them,maybe a quest opens up 20 levels later.

Nobody is talking about characters starting in the middle of nowhere.

People are complaining because they want a free ride to any possible starting area in the world, completely negating the concept of racial starting cities.

Complaining?  No.  Trying to be realistic in approaching the issue without a strictly purist view that will likely turn more people off than I think you guys are admitting?  Yes.

There are literally hundreds of lobby games that remove travel from the world if that is something you do not wish to deal with.

Kyleran

Nightbringe1 said:

MadFrenchie said:

Nightbringe1 said:

Wizardry said:

I just want to start in a city,where i suspect we will start or even a starter isle is ok with me as well.

Just don't drop me down in the middle of nowhere with no plausible reason with an NPC with a yellow marker over it's head,i would scream bloody murder and remove the game so fast,even the registry keys would disappear.
I am not a big fan of linear gameplay,connect the dots questing but as long as it looks immersive,no markers i am ok with it.I would love to see noob spots/npcs remain important to  the game throughout,example we have to constantly visit npc's and talk to them,maybe a quest opens up 20 levels later.

Nobody is talking about characters starting in the middle of nowhere.

People are complaining because they want a free ride to any possible starting area in the world, completely negating the concept of racial starting cities.

Complaining?  No.  Trying to be realistic in approaching the issue without a strictly purist view that will likely turn more people off than I think you guys are admitting?  Yes.

There are literally hundreds of lobby games that remove travel from the world if that is something you do not wish to deal with.

Advocating for a more realistic approach to travel does not automatically equate to a call for a lobby based games.

Hyperbolic extremes do however tend to limit the conversation.