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Play Nice Policies Help Reduce Player Toxicity - Saga of Lucimia - MMORPG.com

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  • postlarvalpostlarval Member EpicPosts: 2,003
    Orthelian said:
    Good grief, could we not have left this buzzword in 2017?
    It hasn't run its course yet. There's a lot more drama to be squeezed out of that word around here.
    ______________________________________________________________________
    ~~ postlarval ~~

  • KabonKabon Member UncommonPosts: 78
    the Game does sound interesting but something that bothers me is a classeless system or the you can be anything attemp (didn work in GW2 for me or any game that added it) if everyone can be a healertankdps grouping tends to be pretty uncoordinated an boring. If noone excells at something. Unless i read something wrong. Having a class like rogue or Warrior or Enchanter that excells at something is much cooler then everyone being a jack of all trades at the end.

    And the atemp to have raid gained abilities does not sound very cool. Since it seems to be a must have in order to compete then.
  • SovrathSovrath Member LegendaryPosts: 32,780
    Wizardry said:
    I should add a true story of a chick who was dating a gm in FFXI.She got several players banned including chicks she didn't like.How about that episode of a DEV cheating inside of Eve online,then they claimed they got rid of that employee but never did.
    Quite a few stories going around like this.Oh yes the infamous FFXI GM,the LEAD GM who banned a chick just because he said "the next person that asks me a dumb question is getting banned".Then he bragged about it on reddit.

    aimbot cheat accused a 10 year old of aimbotting after he got accused.Find out later he was a buddy of the GM,so the 10 year old kid got banned by an asshat GM.

    So yeah tell me again how GM's are going to fix this play nice?
    I would say this is more about the game company not being professional than an actual problem with enforcing such a system

    It's really like "some players just get together" and decide to make a game and yadda, yadda, yadda, a "company" is born.

    So, for example, in my company, a biotech company, all customer service (which is amazing by the way) is logged and listened to by an excellent group of managers.

    which is another thing, we hire amazing people. Our CS people are amazing and our managers are amazing.

    We have weekly 1:1's where we work out issues/objectives.

    We put the customer first and definitely work under the idea that we wouldn't be here if not for the customer.

    In your above examples, all bannings would have been looked at. We get rid of "bad employees" no if's, and's or but's.

    It just sounds to me like game companies (some game companies? Most?) are just a group of people who get together and they don't check themselves at the door, they aren't professional, they are just people who bumble through the act of being a company.

    At least, if these stories are to be believed. But maybe these stories are the exception and not the rule?


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  • SovrathSovrath Member LegendaryPosts: 32,780
    Orinori said:
    How come certain behavior as labeled in OP and posts here are allowed to get the monopoly on the word 'Toxic'? What if I welcome and enjoy those fun behaviors in my games and find the attitudes and behaviors of comments in the OP, posts in the thread and general 'play nice' policies offensive and 'Toxic' to development of enjoyable games?

    Please explain this to me TOXIC people?!
    I've never met a person who acted like an ass who didn't also admit that they were "acting like an ass". They might have done so proudly, they might have been sheepish about it, but they knew.

    This is not hard stuff. Just figure out what is considered baseline for the society you are in and that will help.

    There are certain baseline "givens".

    Of course, some people will be deliberately obtuse "but I like pk'ing, so you are saying I am toxic?"

    No, of course not. But if you go out of your way to pk one person all the time, you seek them out, you make it your bread and butter of the day then that's an issue.


    waynejr2KyleranMrMelGibson
    Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb." 

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    Try the "Special Edition." 'Cause it's "Special." https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrimspecialedition/mods/64878/?tab=description

    Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo 
  • waynejr2waynejr2 Member EpicPosts: 7,771
    Sovrath said:
    Orinori said:
    How come certain behavior as labeled in OP and posts here are allowed to get the monopoly on the word 'Toxic'? What if I welcome and enjoy those fun behaviors in my games and find the attitudes and behaviors of comments in the OP, posts in the thread and general 'play nice' policies offensive and 'Toxic' to development of enjoyable games?

    Please explain this to me TOXIC people?!
    I've never met a person who acted like an ass who didn't also admit that they were "acting like an ass". They might have done so proudly, they might have been sheepish about it, but they knew.

    This is not hard stuff. Just figure out what is considered baseline for the society you are in and that will help.

    There are certain baseline "givens".

    Of course, some people will be deliberately obtuse "but I like pk'ing, so you are saying I am toxic?"

    No, of course not. But if you go out of your way to pk one person all the time, you seek them out, you make it your bread and butter of the day then that's an issue.



    I am an ass!  I have always been one and will likely always be one.
    pantaroSovrathMrMelGibson
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  • SovrathSovrath Member LegendaryPosts: 32,780
    waynejr2 said:
    Sovrath said:
    Orinori said:
    How come certain behavior as labeled in OP and posts here are allowed to get the monopoly on the word 'Toxic'? What if I welcome and enjoy those fun behaviors in my games and find the attitudes and behaviors of comments in the OP, posts in the thread and general 'play nice' policies offensive and 'Toxic' to development of enjoyable games?

    Please explain this to me TOXIC people?!
    I've never met a person who acted like an ass who didn't also admit that they were "acting like an ass". They might have done so proudly, they might have been sheepish about it, but they knew.

    This is not hard stuff. Just figure out what is considered baseline for the society you are in and that will help.

    There are certain baseline "givens".

    Of course, some people will be deliberately obtuse "but I like pk'ing, so you are saying I am toxic?"

    No, of course not. But if you go out of your way to pk one person all the time, you seek them out, you make it your bread and butter of the day then that's an issue.



    I am an ass!  I have always been one and will likely always be one.
    You see, there you go! Done and done!
    MrMelGibson
    Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb." 

    Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w


    Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547

    Try the "Special Edition." 'Cause it's "Special." https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrimspecialedition/mods/64878/?tab=description

    Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo 
  • MadFrenchieMadFrenchie Member LegendaryPosts: 8,505
    edited January 2018
    Sovrath said:
    Orinori said:
    How come certain behavior as labeled in OP and posts here are allowed to get the monopoly on the word 'Toxic'? What if I welcome and enjoy those fun behaviors in my games and find the attitudes and behaviors of comments in the OP, posts in the thread and general 'play nice' policies offensive and 'Toxic' to development of enjoyable games?

    Please explain this to me TOXIC people?!
    I've never met a person who acted like an ass who didn't also admit that they were "acting like an ass". They might have done so proudly, they might have been sheepish about it, but they knew.

    This is not hard stuff. Just figure out what is considered baseline for the society you are in and that will help.

    There are certain baseline "givens".

    Of course, some people will be deliberately obtuse "but I like pk'ing, so you are saying I am toxic?"

    No, of course not. But if you go out of your way to pk one person all the time, you seek them out, you make it your bread and butter of the day then that's an issue.


    Absolutely.

    It's always seemed so cowardly that some folks wish to hide behind "but I'm RPing a PKer, so you can't get mad when I'm camping your corpse!" or some such other nonsense.  You're being an asshole, not RPing a PKer.

    Not only that, but even if you are, nobody wants to play with an asshole.  Roleplay or otherwise.  So, if you choose to do it, choose to accept that no one wants to play with you and that they will seek out mechanics or games that remove you from the equation.

    EDIT- Note that, just as you mention, I'm okay with corpse camping and such when a game unapologetically says "PvP is wide open, prepare yourself," but when games quite obviously wish to avoid corpse camping or high-level griefing by discouraging the behavior, but players seek to circumvent such systems, you have nobody to blame but yourself if you find yourself in hot water for circumventing said systems.
    SovrathRenfailKyleran

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  • UngoodUngood Member LegendaryPosts: 7,534

    nolic1 said:

    Ok after looking into your game I wish I could say I am interested in it on paper or what your site says it sounds good with the game being about adventure then I saw the game and said I do not want another EQ tab targeting tool bar game that has no active combat that many of today's games use.



    Nothing with your game sounds bad but that one issue I have and I do wish you all the luck with this fantastic idea.



    I respect your feels on this, but for me, I don't need someone to reinvent the wheel for me to have a pleasant drive. Sometimes all it takes for a game to be fun.. is that the game is fun to play.
    pantaro
    Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.

  • pantaropantaro Member RarePosts: 515
    Kabon said:
    the Game does sound interesting but something that bothers me is a classeless system or the you can be anything attemp (didn work in GW2 for me or any game that added it) if everyone can be a healertankdps grouping tends to be pretty uncoordinated an boring. If noone excells at something. Unless i read something wrong. Having a class like rogue or Warrior or Enchanter that excells at something is much cooler then everyone being a jack of all trades at the end.

    And the atemp to have raid gained abilities does not sound very cool. Since it seems to be a must have in order to compete then.
    i'm such a sucker for classless systems personally!
  • OrinoriOrinori Member RarePosts: 751
    edited January 2018
    Sovrath said:

    Of course, some people will be deliberately obtuse "but I like pk'ing, so you are saying I am toxic?"

    No, of course not. But if you go out of your way to pk one person all the time, you seek them out, you make it your bread and butter of the day then that's an issue.


    And is it still an issue if the one person being pk'd all the time actually enjoys the game play? That they also engage in that behavior and are waiting and trying to get the upper hand? Is it still then an issue or 'toxic' behavior? or is it then just two people having fun in a game? 

    It only becomes an issue when one party does not want to be involved in that part of the game, this is the only time the behavior becomes 'toxic' and it is only labeled by the person who does not like the behavior of the other player which here lies the point - as someone who maybe loves to pk / grief someone all day, I might just find this 'leave me alone' victim mentality completely detrimental to the fun within my game, your attitude IS TOXIC!

    It really is such a stupid partisan word to be using. utterly pointless to be trying to label behaviors in a game you don't like as toxic (I kind of figure using the word in the heading here is also flame bait worthy and violates ToS!). It is up to the developers to create tools, restrictions, laws and controls that are needed in order to foster the kind of environment they want for their playerbase and from the little snippets I read in this thread well good luck to the devs on that when one of your tools is to rely on banning people who are not 'nice'!  (the need of which in my opinion would only be needed due to a complete lack of tools, restrictions, laws and controls within the gameworld, and also have fun trying to defend and define nice to achieve your goal).
  • MadFrenchieMadFrenchie Member LegendaryPosts: 8,505
    Orinori said:
    Sovrath said:

    Of course, some people will be deliberately obtuse "but I like pk'ing, so you are saying I am toxic?"

    No, of course not. But if you go out of your way to pk one person all the time, you seek them out, you make it your bread and butter of the day then that's an issue.


    And is it still an issue if the one person being pk'd all the time actually enjoys the game play? That they also engage in that behavior and are waiting and trying to get the upper hand? Is it still then an issue or 'toxic' behavior? or is it then just two people having fun in a game? 

    It only becomes an issue when one party does not want to be involved in that part of the game, this is the only time the behavior becomes 'toxic' and it is only labeled by the person who does not like the behavior of the other player which here lies the point - as someone who maybe loves to pk / grief someone all day, I might just find this 'leave me alone' victim mentality completely detrimental to the fun within my game, your attitude IS TOXIC!

    It really is such a stupid partisan word to be using. utterly pointless to be trying to label behaviors in a game you don't like as toxic (I kind of figure using the word in the heading here is also flame bait worthy and violates ToS!). It is up to the developers to create tools, restrictions, laws and controls that are needed in order to foster the kind of environment they want for their playerbase and from the little snippets I read in this thread well good luck to the devs on that when one of your tools is to rely on banning people who are not 'nice'!  
    If the carebear is playing an open world ffa PvP game, you have a point.

    If you're circumventing gameplay systems to grief him, you don't.
    Kyleran

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  • OrinoriOrinori Member RarePosts: 751
    edited January 2018
    If the carebear is playing an open world ffa PvP game, you have a point.

    If you're circumventing gameplay systems to grief him, you don't.
    Define circumventing gameplay? because to me it sounds like a game design error not a player error.
  • SovrathSovrath Member LegendaryPosts: 32,780
    edited January 2018
    Orinori said:
    If the carebear is playing an open world ffa PvP game, you have a point.

    If you're circumventing gameplay systems to grief him, you don't.
    Define circuventing gameplay? because to me it sounds like a development error not a player error.
    Technically, if someone finds a bug or issue they are usually supposed to report it. So if there is a loophole and a player just takes advantage of it even though they are supposed to report it, then that is an issue.

    An example (though not exactly pertinent because of the type of game it was) in Lineage 2 some items had the exact same icon though different descriptions and of course different prices.

    Some people would advertise the item for a lower price but in reality would be selling another item at a much higher price in order to trick a player into buying it. So, selling a hard to find item at a much higher price but if you looked carefully it was a completely different item that wasn't hard to get.

    Now, in Lineage 2, it was a "let the player beware" type of game so scamming was "fine" and part of the game.

    If you had another game, let's say a complete pve game, where you had the same issue, then that would be something that would need to be reported. "Yes" it's a development issue but that doesn't give the player carte blance to take advantage of it "in that type of game".

    Additionally, if you find you can glitch an instance to grief someone or a group of "someones" then that falls under the same category.

    Again, in a game like EVE (or Lineage 2) part of the game play is taking advantage of others so it's sort of a non-issue and if a person isn't interested in that game play then he/she shouldn't be playing the game.

    Though, it's interesting to note that in Lienage 2 players were able to train raid bosses into cities and the developers patched that out.

    I remember one player asking on the forum "well what do they do in Korea" only to be answered by "They play the game and don't train raid bosses onto players". Apparently (and this is not witnessed so I can't say if it's true or not) they don't do this type of stuff, that's not how they play these games.
    Post edited by Sovrath on
    MrMelGibson
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  • MadFrenchieMadFrenchie Member LegendaryPosts: 8,505
    Orinori said:
    If the carebear is playing an open world ffa PvP game, you have a point.

    If you're circumventing gameplay systems to grief him, you don't.
    Define circumventing gameplay? because to me it sounds like a game design error not a player error.
    Hiding from high-level guards using pathing errors to gank lowbies from range is a pretty classic example.  

    image
  • OrinoriOrinori Member RarePosts: 751
    Orinori said:
    If the carebear is playing an open world ffa PvP game, you have a point.

    If you're circumventing gameplay systems to grief him, you don't.
    Define circumventing gameplay? because to me it sounds like a game design error not a player error.
    Hiding from high-level guards using pathing errors to gank lowbies from range is a pretty classic example.  
    So a game design issue then. Not a player issue. Devs need to take responsibility for these kinds of issues, pushing the issue and blame on to the user who are just using the space in what ever way appears to be fun to them is not helpful. Then worse still refusing to give access to something they paid for because of it.

    MrMelGibson
  • OrinoriOrinori Member RarePosts: 751
    Sovrath said:
    Orinori said:
    If the carebear is playing an open world ffa PvP game, you have a point.

    If you're circumventing gameplay systems to grief him, you don't.
    Define circuventing gameplay? because to me it sounds like a development error not a player error.
    Technically, if someone finds a bug or issue they are usually supposed to report it. So if there is a loophole and a player just takes advantage of it even though they are supposed to report it, then that is an issue.

    Exploits, glitches, hacking, 3rd party software use and general unintended gameplay are usually covered by the ToS due to devs not being able to foresee every issue or cover every angle in time. But behavior? how can you cover behavior? "that guy was mean to me" BANNED! it is totally subjective! Devs need to provide clear boundaries within the game world. Calling certain behaviors toxic is just incendiary and unnecessary and banning people because they are not 'nice'? really? 
  • MadFrenchieMadFrenchie Member LegendaryPosts: 8,505
    edited January 2018
    Orinori said:
    Orinori said:
    If the carebear is playing an open world ffa PvP game, you have a point.

    If you're circumventing gameplay systems to grief him, you don't.
    Define circumventing gameplay? because to me it sounds like a game design error not a player error.
    Hiding from high-level guards using pathing errors to gank lowbies from range is a pretty classic example.  
    So a game design issue then. Not a player issue. Devs need to take responsibility for these kinds of issues, pushing the issue and blame on to the user who are just using the space in what ever way appears to be fun to them is not helpful. Then worse still refusing to give access to something they paid for because of it.

    No, it's very much a player issue.  It's obvious the high-level guards are there for the lowbie's protection.

    It's like saying you have no fault for stealing money from a bank because they weren't using the highest-tech security system.  No, you're still the culprit.  They may have negligent responsibility that contributed towards your success in thieving, but that's not a legitimate defense for your behavior.
    RenfailMrMelGibsonpostlarval

    image
  • SEANMCADSEANMCAD Member EpicPosts: 16,775
    edited January 2018
    Orinori said:
    Sovrath said:
    Orinori said:
    If the carebear is playing an open world ffa PvP game, you have a point.

    If you're circumventing gameplay systems to grief him, you don't.
    Define circuventing gameplay? because to me it sounds like a development error not a player error.
    Technically, if someone finds a bug or issue they are usually supposed to report it. So if there is a loophole and a player just takes advantage of it even though they are supposed to report it, then that is an issue.

    Exploits, glitches, hacking, 3rd party software use and general unintended gameplay are usually covered by the ToS due to devs not being able to foresee every issue or cover every angle in time. But behavior? how can you cover behavior? "that guy was mean to me" BANNED! it is totally subjective! Devs need to provide clear boundaries within the game world. Calling certain behaviors toxic is just incendiary and unnecessary and banning people because they are not 'nice'? really? 
    those are good points but why cant a developer make that choice themselves?

    speaking personally I would be intrested in learning more about such a platform

    to be fair though I also would be interested when it comes to words to see something that has absolute positively zero rules

    Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.

    Please do not respond to me

  • SovrathSovrath Member LegendaryPosts: 32,780
    edited January 2018
    Orinori said:
    Sovrath said:
    Orinori said:
    If the carebear is playing an open world ffa PvP game, you have a point.

    If you're circumventing gameplay systems to grief him, you don't.
    Define circuventing gameplay? because to me it sounds like a development error not a player error.
    Technically, if someone finds a bug or issue they are usually supposed to report it. So if there is a loophole and a player just takes advantage of it even though they are supposed to report it, then that is an issue.

    Exploits, glitches, hacking, 3rd party software use and general unintended gameplay are usually covered by the ToS due to devs not being able to foresee every issue or cover every angle in time. But behavior? how can you cover behavior? "that guy was mean to me" BANNED! it is totally subjective! Devs need to provide clear boundaries within the game world. Calling certain behaviors toxic is just incendiary and unnecessary and banning people because they are not 'nice'? really? 
    I'm pretty sure they already do. This is not rocket science.  If you can't actually differentiate the difference between harassment and "game play" then that's a whole other issue.

    None of this is hard.

    an example:

    You agree not to use any Service to:

    Take any action or upload, post, transmit, promote, or distribute any illegal Content, including, but not limited to, any UGC or any Game Mods;

    Take any action or upload, post, transmit, promote, or distribute any Content that infringes or violates any third party rights;

    Engage in, take any action associated with, or participate in any type of child solicitation, grooming behavior, pedophilia, or predatory behavior in any form;

    Harass, stalk, threaten, embarrass, spam or do anything else to another user of any Services that is unwanted, such as repeatedly sending unwanted messages or making personal attacks or statements about race, sexual orientation, religion, heritage, etc.;

    Take any action or upload, post, transmit, distribute, or communicate Your or any person's real-world personal information;

    Impersonate any person or entity, including, but not limited to, ZeniMax, ZeniMax's partners' or affiliates' employees, or falsely state or otherwise misrepresent Your affiliation with a person or entity;
    MadFrenchieRenfailMrMelGibson
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    Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w


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    Try the "Special Edition." 'Cause it's "Special." https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrimspecialedition/mods/64878/?tab=description

    Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo 
  • RenfailRenfail Member EpicPosts: 1,638
    Orinori said:
    Sovrath said:
    Orinori said:
    If the carebear is playing an open world ffa PvP game, you have a point.

    If you're circumventing gameplay systems to grief him, you don't.
    Define circuventing gameplay? because to me it sounds like a development error not a player error.
    Technically, if someone finds a bug or issue they are usually supposed to report it. So if there is a loophole and a player just takes advantage of it even though they are supposed to report it, then that is an issue.

    Exploits, glitches, hacking, 3rd party software use and general unintended gameplay are usually covered by the ToS due to devs not being able to foresee every issue or cover every angle in time. But behavior? how can you cover behavior? "that guy was mean to me" BANNED! it is totally subjective! Devs need to provide clear boundaries within the game world. Calling certain behaviors toxic is just incendiary and unnecessary and banning people because they are not 'nice'? really? 
    We will be adhering to the same set of policies EverQuest and EverQuest II both used in their early days. Boundaries will be clearly defined in the ToS and toxic players will have several opportunities to play within the guidelines before they are banned. 

    Best rule of thumb? Play nice with others just like your parents and/or teachers taught you in your childhood. 

    The only people with anything to worry about are those who can't/won't play nice with others within the guidelines set forth by the TOS and PnP.  
    MrMelGibson
    Tim "Renfail" Anderson | Wandering Hermits Patreon
  • OrinoriOrinori Member RarePosts: 751
    Orinori said:
    Orinori said:
    If the carebear is playing an open world ffa PvP game, you have a point.

    If you're circumventing gameplay systems to grief him, you don't.
    Define circumventing gameplay? because to me it sounds like a game design error not a player error.
    Hiding from high-level guards using pathing errors to gank lowbies from range is a pretty classic example.  
    So a game design issue then. Not a player issue. Devs need to take responsibility for these kinds of issues, pushing the issue and blame on to the user who are just using the space in what ever way appears to be fun to them is not helpful. Then worse still refusing to give access to something they paid for because of it.

    No, it's very much a player issue.  It's obvious the high-level guards are there for the lowbie's protection.

    It's like saying you have no fault for stealing money from a bank because they weren't using the highest-tech security system.  No, you're still the culprit.  They may have negligent responsibility that contributed towards your success in thieving, but that's not a legitimate defense for your behavior.
    Well you wouldn't have a fault for stealing the money.....unless there were already clear rules and boundaries in society that state otherwise.

    But lets not forget this is a game world, and conflating real world behavior with behavior in a digital world is flat out wrong. We kill people in these games and its all fun and fine, you can't just start picking and choosing in your head what you like and don't like and expect everyone to play the same. The boundaries need and most definitely should be physical and in order for that to occur the devs need to step up and provide them.
  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 43,975
    Renfail said:
    Orinori said:
    Sovrath said:
    Orinori said:
    If the carebear is playing an open world ffa PvP game, you have a point.

    If you're circumventing gameplay systems to grief him, you don't.
    Define circuventing gameplay? because to me it sounds like a development error not a player error.
    Technically, if someone finds a bug or issue they are usually supposed to report it. So if there is a loophole and a player just takes advantage of it even though they are supposed to report it, then that is an issue.

    Exploits, glitches, hacking, 3rd party software use and general unintended gameplay are usually covered by the ToS due to devs not being able to foresee every issue or cover every angle in time. But behavior? how can you cover behavior? "that guy was mean to me" BANNED! it is totally subjective! Devs need to provide clear boundaries within the game world. Calling certain behaviors toxic is just incendiary and unnecessary and banning people because they are not 'nice'? really? 
    We will be adhering to the same set of policies EverQuest and EverQuest II both used in their early days. Boundaries will be clearly defined in the ToS and toxic players will have several opportunities to play within the guidelines before they are banned. 

    Best rule of thumb? Play nice with others just like your parents and/or teachers taught you in your childhood. 

    The only people with anything to worry about are those who can't/won't play nice with others within the guidelines set forth by the TOS and PnP.  
    Amazing how such an obvious and simple concept can be argued against.

    Or that players have no responsibility to control their actions, leaving it all to the developers to "enforce" it through hard coding.

    Player bad behavior has been surprising devs since UO.

    RenfailSovrath

    "True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde 

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm

    Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™

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  • RenfailRenfail Member EpicPosts: 1,638
    Sovrath said:
    Orinori said:
    Sovrath said:
    Orinori said:
    If the carebear is playing an open world ffa PvP game, you have a point.

    If you're circumventing gameplay systems to grief him, you don't.
    Define circuventing gameplay? because to me it sounds like a development error not a player error.
    Technically, if someone finds a bug or issue they are usually supposed to report it. So if there is a loophole and a player just takes advantage of it even though they are supposed to report it, then that is an issue.

    Exploits, glitches, hacking, 3rd party software use and general unintended gameplay are usually covered by the ToS due to devs not being able to foresee every issue or cover every angle in time. But behavior? how can you cover behavior? "that guy was mean to me" BANNED! it is totally subjective! Devs need to provide clear boundaries within the game world. Calling certain behaviors toxic is just incendiary and unnecessary and banning people because they are not 'nice'? really? 
    I'm pretty sure they already do. This is not rocket science.  If you can't actually differentiate the difference between harassment and "game play" then that's a whole other issue.

    None of this is hard.

    an example:

    You agree not to use any Service to:

    Take any action or upload, post, transmit, promote, or distribute any illegal Content, including, but not limited to, any UGC or any Game Mods;

    Take any action or upload, post, transmit, promote, or distribute any Content that infringes or violates any third party rights;

    Engage in, take any action associated with, or participate in any type of child solicitation, grooming behavior, pedophilia, or predatory behavior in any form;

    Harass, stalk, threaten, embarrass, spam or do anything else to another user of any Services that is unwanted, such as repeatedly sending unwanted messages or making personal attacks or statements about race, sexual orientation, religion, heritage, etc.;

    Take any action or upload, post, transmit, distribute, or communicate Your or any person's real-world personal information;

    Impersonate any person or entity, including, but not limited to, ZeniMax, ZeniMax's partners' or affiliates' employees, or falsely state or otherwise misrepresent Your affiliation with a person or entity;
    Aye....Zenimax has a fairly standard ToS which includes a play nice policy in there. 

    I haven't noticed too much toxicity in ESO, but it's standard practise to have those terms clearly listed. 

    The only thing we are doing extra is actively policing the policy with GMs likw in the old days :) 

    Apparently that frightens some  :D
    Tim "Renfail" Anderson | Wandering Hermits Patreon
  • DullahanDullahan Member EpicPosts: 4,536
    Except for the most egregious cases like RL threats or hacking/exploiting, I believe player community should police itself. Especially in a game that is cooperative, players will naturally ostracize the bad actors. This is how it worked in games of the past, and I don't think those games would have been as interesting if all players were forced to play the upstanding citizen. There should be heroes and villains.
    [Deleted User]


  • MadFrenchieMadFrenchie Member LegendaryPosts: 8,505
    Orinori said:
    Orinori said:
    Orinori said:
    If the carebear is playing an open world ffa PvP game, you have a point.

    If you're circumventing gameplay systems to grief him, you don't.
    Define circumventing gameplay? because to me it sounds like a game design error not a player error.
    Hiding from high-level guards using pathing errors to gank lowbies from range is a pretty classic example.  
    So a game design issue then. Not a player issue. Devs need to take responsibility for these kinds of issues, pushing the issue and blame on to the user who are just using the space in what ever way appears to be fun to them is not helpful. Then worse still refusing to give access to something they paid for because of it.

    No, it's very much a player issue.  It's obvious the high-level guards are there for the lowbie's protection.

    It's like saying you have no fault for stealing money from a bank because they weren't using the highest-tech security system.  No, you're still the culprit.  They may have negligent responsibility that contributed towards your success in thieving, but that's not a legitimate defense for your behavior.
    Well you wouldn't have a fault for stealing the money.....unless there were already clear rules and boundaries in society that state otherwise.

    But lets not forget this is a game world, and conflating real world behavior with behavior in a digital world is flat out wrong. We kill people in these games and its all fun and fine, you can't just start picking and choosing in your head what you like and don't like and expect everyone to play the same. The boundaries need and most definitely should be physical and in order for that to occur the devs need to step up and provide them.
    Again, it's quite obvious by the high-level guards that the area is intended to be a safe one for the lowbies.

    Your exploiting a bug or glitch has nothing to do with conflating real life or not, it's you circumventing the intended purpose of the system to grief others who have no recourse.  That's not really up for moral debate; context clues make it very clear they did not intend that behavior.
    Renfail

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