It might not be gaming but they owe a greater responsibility to their employees and their families and to their shareholders. If indeed they were not suppose to increase their profits than how could they continue to fulfil those obligations or are we merely arguing about this from a singular point of view or shall we let practical concerns come in.
Well that's just it, it is not gaming. So as a gamer am I going to play something that makes me a gambler or something else? No.
Now lets get practical. What you are saying would be an issue, but lets look at the history:
There was a time when games were profitable and fulfilled all the obligations you mentioned, yet did not need algorithms to put players together to sell more.
Before that there was a time when games were profitable without loot boxes.
Before there was a time when games were profitable without a skin economy.
Before that there was a time when games were profitable without game breaking MT's.
Before there was a time when games were profitable without MT's.
Before that there was a time when games only needed a box sale.
So you have to ask, is this being done to "fulfil obligations" or is a corporate led approach that puts maximising profit, any way they can, as the only priority?
As you can imagine I think its the later, or gaming would have never survived its hugely unprofitable box sale years.
And the spin off to this is that indie games now use P2W as standard practice because that's what the big guys do. Regardless of the fact that they may or may not be run in the same way the big industry players are.
At one time developers could create a new MMO, charge a box fee and a monthly fee, an annual upgrade and players would play for long periods of time, years even.
For whatever reasons, player behavior changed and started quickly losing interest shortly after launch, so the old model changed, several times actually into where we are today.
Developers these days figure out well before before launch (sometimes during design) what monetization techniques are likely to maximize revenues for the longest period of time, including developing strategies to change it over time.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Battlefront 2 had precisely such a system, until consumers realized it and told EA, in no uncertain terms, to fuck off with that bullshit.
Ok.. No.
Getting an "edge" is not like what Slapshot is saying.
Lets use Golf.
Battlefront 2 allows you to buy the best golf balls and clubs, but.. if you miss the shot.. you still missed. if someone else gets a hole in one.. you still lose.
Slapshot is talking like Evony style stuff that kind of P2W died over a decade ago.. so..
Does anyone have this magical P2W where people can spend money to have ensured victories, I wll accept an MOBA or MMO only, that is playable by me, right now, that is not a decade old?
So you're not interested in debating the issue or considering anything other than your own viewpoint. You could've just said so up front, instead of wasting my time.
It's also painfully obvious you have no fucking clue how the progression system in Battlefront 2 worked prior to the push back from consumers.
I had no clue at all, I didn't play it, only saw what I could find in a Wiki and some game articles. Seemed kinda "meh" to be honest, like.. Oh my ship has a bigger shield, I have a stronger light saber...pretty benign looking things, nothing really major like, "I can just ignore all damage and one shot kill you" kind of stuff. But I admit I have no idea how much stronger the light sabers were for example, so they could have been one shot kills and I would have no clue.. I also can't log in and find out as it seems it's been fixed.
I mean lets be honest with ourselves, if there is no reward for spending money, people won't do it, and we both know what happens to games that people don't spend money on?
So we both know there would need to be some reward given, the question is purely a matter of how much is fair.
20% turn rate and 20% fire rate boosts for Starfighters is a straight upgrade and is significant. It compromises the integrity of a competitive multiplayer game.
Your attempts to downplay it do not change that fact. The "oh it's not so bad" is exactly how EA got to that point in the first place. You give companies like EA an inch on compromising integrity of gameplay for more quick cash, they're going to take a mile.
Again, we both know that money needs to be made, if you have some realistic solution, by all means, pitch it and market it. But we both know people will only part with their money for self serving reasons, the question at this point is purely a matter of what is fair.
To think "Nothing" is fair is the foolish notions of delusional idealist. So between us realist, the only real question is, how much and what kind of advantage should be given.
Today’s corporate behemoths are looking for massive profits but there are a few smaller games on the way that are going the sub route. That games like CU have been able to attract investors is promising to me. Those investors did their due diligence and determined that they felt they could make their money back and a reasonable profit off of a subscription model. That doesn’t guarantee success by any means and if MJ doesn’t end up with a fun game it will fail no matter what the monetization. It does however mean that there are valid posibilities between “nothing” and P2W.
Crowfall is another interesting attempt. Spend gobs of money on your private “eternal kingdom” which is pretty much just a glorified private housing area but have campaign rule sets that prevent you from bringing anything from your EK. Then charge an optional VIP sub which allows you to train multiple skills but you can only have 1 slotted at a time in game.
There are are others on the way as well. Maybe they all fail... maybe they thrive. But to think there is simply no option to the status quo is just foolish. The only way to be surely wrong is to assume that nothing changes. Heck I can see a return to the per hour pricing of years gone by being attempted at some point.
I agree, its interesting to see other payment models being explored, remains to be seen if any of these games will succeed however there are many other factors outside of the monetization model which will influence the outcome.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
It might not be gaming but they owe a greater responsibility to their employees and their families and to their shareholders. If indeed they were not suppose to increase their profits than how could they continue to fulfil those obligations or are we merely arguing about this from a singular point of view or shall we let practical concerns come in.
Well that's just it, it is not gaming. So as a gamer am I going to play something that makes me a gambler or something else? No.
Now lets get practical. What you are saying would be an issue, but lets look at the history:
There was a time when games were profitable and fulfilled all the obligations you mentioned, yet did not need algorithms to put players together to sell more.
Before that there was a time when games were profitable without loot boxes.
Before there was a time when games were profitable without a skin economy.
Before that there was a time when games were profitable without game breaking MT's.
Before there was a time when games were profitable without MT's.
Before that there was a time when games only needed a box sale.
So you have to ask, is this being done to "fulfil obligations" or is a corporate led approach that puts maximising profit, any way they can, as the only priority?
As you can imagine I think its the later, or gaming would have never survived its hugely unprofitable box sale years.
And the spin off to this is that indie games now use P2W as standard practice because that's what the big guys do. Regardless of the fact that they may or may not be run in the same way the big industry players are.
At one time developers could create a new MMO, charge a box fee and a monthly fee, an annual upgrade and players would play for long periods of time, years even.
For whatever reasons, player behavior changed and started quickly losing interest shortly after launch, so the old model changed, several times actually into where we are today.
Developers these days figure out well before before launch (sometimes during design) what monetization techniques are likely to maximize revenues for the longest period of time, including developing strategies to change it over time.
This is not just about MMO's Kyleran, it is about gaming as a whole.
GTA 5 earned around $800 million on its first day, three times what it cost to make. But the cash shop keeps on milking the players. This is about using games as a reason for getting people hooked on monetisation, not using monetization to help pay for the cost to make them.
Your argument about MMOs has some truth, but we see games outside that genre all moving to the same MT and gambling model. In fact we are moving to a point where every game by major studios will be online, multiplayer and MT'd to the hilt.
When you say "For whatever reasons, player behaviour changed and started quickly losing interest shortly after launch" I think the reasons for that were quite clear. MMO's started to chase a new player base, players who mostly play solo games. That began with WoW. It was those players who started to lose interest shortly after launch. It was a drive for more profit that led to huge changes in MMO gameplay back then, it is the drive for more P2W profit that is leading to huge changes to MMO gameplay now.
CF sounds quite reasonable from what Slapshot is saying; buy your private kingdom but don't expect it to influence game play. We do want everyone from designers to publishers to make money, it is just how they make it.
Item Malls, Loot Boxes and other means of a Cash Shop are not going away any time soon, Sure, some modern games have tried to put in Subs or go the whole "Sub Route", off the top of my head, I know TERA tried to do it, I think Wildstar and ESO also tried, and quickly gave up on that foolish notion, even older games that are still kicking have opted to drop the sub like Aion, LotRo, DDO, etc, for example, even long standing hold-outs like WoW and EvE have made a "F2P" option and item mall.
The Time of sub based games is over. I have no doubt that some games will have new ways to cash in, like one of the most inventive ways to make things work, was Black Gold, which literally sold time, but not in the way you would imagine, you could play for free, but if you wanted to save your progress you had to pay for it, in that front, it was a unique and Inventive idea that you could use in your favor, like for example, run a time gated Raid that can only be run once a week, didn't get what you want, don't save and run it again tomorrow, and only save when you get what you want, Sadly, Black Gold in a pretty much unknown dead game. CoE, has another plan where they sell life.
So again, keeping some hope that item malls and P2W will not happen is delusional, it's not that there is no room for other ideas, but, that ideas like Subs are proven failures, and not only that, even on this topic alone people have called subs p2w, so.. there is that problem as well. Some people view what you find acceptable fees as P2W, ain't that just life.
Which brings us back to the real question "What should be sold"
We know games need funding to stay alive and be maintained, so a game company needs to find ways to entice people to spend money.
I've said on another post there are a few ways this can be done.
They can do this several ways.
Sell Power. Pure and simple, you buy raw character power for cash. This kind of plan is a hard sell in PvP games, but in pvE games, this should be an non-issue. It won't stop the whiners from whining that it is P2W, but since in PvE games, someone having more power then you is vastly irrelevant, these complainers can be should be ignored. Often time they are, thankfully. in PvP games however this is a problem, as it really is P2W, So that is situational upon the game itself.
Sell Content: Simple enough, you don't get the whole game. You need to buy DLC, sometimes this will be like dungeons, map zones, "adventure packs", races, classes, inventory, mounts,home instances, pretty much all the "additional fun stuff" but the thing with this, is, most of it is one time, like classes, races, inventory, you only buy that stuff once. So while this is not a bad option, it is limited in how much they can offer. Content like Dungeons, Zones and the like, can be a continual income, but they need to keep making more of it. Sure people will complain about this, they will complain no matter what, but in this regard, players are just buying more of the game.
Sell Time Advancements: This is a huge one. Selling a means to speed up progress or bypass tedium is always a good sale. This can be anything from just being able to harvest more, do time gated content more, or simply speed up the process. Since it's just time, it's not any kind of P2W. Sure people will fuss about this, but, they can get the same thing for free, so it's not a P2w method an a commonly used one. The only problem with this, is too often additional time gates are put in to make buying time passes attractive or in some cases mandatory. But lets get real, punishing people for their impatience is a normal thing in the real world, the same should be held true for games.
Sell Cosmetics: We all know this should be easy, just sell pretty stuff, but get this, on the GW2 forums, people have called this P2W as well. So..
There is always room for new ideas, and new ways to secure income, but trying to revitalize a system that is failing.
In conclusion, when it comes to P2W.
If I log in, and I can enjoy the game, then whatever P2W that exists is not stopping me from enjoying the game, then that is good design, if I log in and need o worry about other players ganking me, killing me or ruining my fun, then no matter how "pure" the game might be, it is bad design.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
If I log in, and I can enjoy the game, then whatever P2W that exists is not stopping me from enjoying the game, then that is good design, if I log in and need o worry about other players ganking me, killing me or ruining my fun, then no matter how "pure" the game might be, it is bad design.
Hey you are entitled to your opinions. One point though, your statement about players ganking you has absolutely zero to do with P2W. That can happen in any pay model.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
If I log in, and I can enjoy the game, then whatever P2W that exists is not stopping me from enjoying the game, then that is good design, if I log in and need o worry about other players ganking me, killing me or ruining my fun, then no matter how "pure" the game might be, it is bad design.
Hey you are entitled to your opinions. One point though, your statement about players ganking you has absolutely zero to do with P2W. That can happen in any pay model.
Exactly.
See there is nothing special or fair about games without P2W.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
If I log in, and I can enjoy the game, then whatever P2W that exists is not stopping me from enjoying the game, then that is good design, if I log in and need o worry about other players ganking me, killing me or ruining my fun, then no matter how "pure" the game might be, it is bad design.
Hey you are entitled to your opinions. One point though, your statement about players ganking you has absolutely zero to do with P2W. That can happen in any pay model.
Exactly.
See there is nothing special or fair about games without P2W.
Exactly. Just like removing an aimbot doesn't make the game any fairer because people can still use map hacks. Right?
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
If P2W/Lootboxes/Cashgrab and gambling schemes weren't so wildly popular they would not have survived, even thrived the way they have. The only way these supposedly unsavory monetizations practices are going to go away is if they become unprofitable.
I won't pay to win, I will buy stuff to make my toon unique (ala WH40K Eternal Crusade) but I won't pay for power nor will I play (for long) a game where power can be purchased. Especially if it comes to PvP.
Feel free to complain about it all you want obviously each person is entitled to their opinion, but until you start voting with your wallet these things will never go away.
In my opinion, box price (including dig dl or any other means of distribution) + monthly subscription if preferred, however, I also realize the borderline Attention Deficit Disorder the (seemingly) majority of gamers have now so I doubt this model will become popular anytime soon.
If you want a new idea, go read an old book.
In order to be insulted, I must first value your opinion.
If I log in, and I can enjoy the game, then whatever P2W that exists is not stopping me from enjoying the game, then that is good design, if I log in and need o worry about other players ganking me, killing me or ruining my fun, then no matter how "pure" the game might be, it is bad design.
Hey you are entitled to your opinions. One point though, your statement about players ganking you has absolutely zero to do with P2W. That can happen in any pay model.
Exactly.
See there is nothing special or fair about games without P2W.
Exactly. Just like removing an aimbot doesn't make the game any fairer because people can still use map hacks. Right?
That makes no sense at all, but then again, You equate things sanctioned and made by the game developers themselves for players to use.. as cheating.
So.. I was not expecting much in the way of reasoned responses.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
I'll jump back into this argument. I was on toddler duty all yesterday and before that was called in to work at 4 am.
Nonetheless,
America is a capitalist country. The God of America is money. Companies can make games with varying levels of monetization schemes. I don't blame them. They want to make a lame ass P2W game, then so be it, i'll vote with my feet, and play something else. The P2W doesn't bother me, I am not offended by companies seeking to maximize profits at the expense of the video game purists because quite frankly, the video game purists are outnumbered and/or not even their audience. It is what companies in America do. You just roll with it. If BF2 wants to add their P2W elements, i'm fine with it, i'm just definitely not playing the game.
If there is a game where a person puts in $10,000 to wield a +20 sword and no one else has greater than +10. You know what, I'm okay with that. It is America, you get what you pay for, you want a +20 sword and want to put $10k USD go ahead, you deserve to WTF Pwn me if i see you in PvP. You paid for that right. I truly don't see much of a difference between someone who plays 60 hours a week for a year and has achieved all the best gear in the game. They sacrificed time for that right. Another sacrificed money for that right. It's the same to me.
Now cheating is a whole different story, which I won't get into.
Either way, if fun for you is being the best at a game and people with a bigger wallet ruin it for you, then don't play that game, I gave up being the best in games a long time ago as I don't have the time or am I willing to spend the money to do it.
Overall, I guess I'm in the camp of time = money and money = time. So P2W is just another side of the coin. I just determine how much of it I can handle and seek my fun.
I guess in conclusion, take your gaming purity views and realize it is not realistic to expect that type of belief in America. Don't blame the companies for trying to maximize their profit, it is their act of worship basically. If you don't like it, don't play the game.
Cryomatrix P.S. I work in the healthcare business, if you think P2W is an affront to your views, health insurance is a Pay-to-fuck-people-over scheme, but instead of being voluntary, you have to pay for it and the health insurance companies will fuck you over and they fuck over the physicians as well, all at the expense of your health . Now that is an affront, P2W is just silly bullshit.
Catch me streaming at twitch.tv/cryomatrix You can see my sci-fi/WW2 book recommendations.
If I log in, and I can enjoy the game, then whatever P2W that exists is not stopping me from enjoying the game, then that is good design, if I log in and need o worry about other players ganking me, killing me or ruining my fun, then no matter how "pure" the game might be, it is bad design.
Hey you are entitled to your opinions. One point though, your statement about players ganking you has absolutely zero to do with P2W. That can happen in any pay model.
Exactly.
See there is nothing special or fair about games without P2W.
P2W adds another tier of ganking. You caught up with the guy who had played longer than you and then he out spends you. Two wrongs do not make a right.
If I log in, and I can enjoy the game, then whatever P2W that exists is not stopping me from enjoying the game, then that is good design, if I log in and need o worry about other players ganking me, killing me or ruining my fun, then no matter how "pure" the game might be, it is bad design.
Hey you are entitled to your opinions. One point though, your statement about players ganking you has absolutely zero to do with P2W. That can happen in any pay model.
Exactly.
See there is nothing special or fair about games without P2W.
Exactly. Just like removing an aimbot doesn't make the game any fairer because people can still use map hacks. Right?
That makes no sense at all, but then again, You equate things sanctioned and made by the game developers themselves for players to use.. as cheating.
So.. I was not expecting much in the way of reasoned responses.
Ill try to speak in simpler terms to you from now on.
Removing one practice like P2W does not magically make any other unfair trait disappear. That said, if a game has multiple "unfair" traits and removes one, most people would still see that as progress or at least I do.
Again- to me it's really simple. Success in a game should be dictated by what happens inside the game. You can feel free to disagree but I think it's a pretty simple concept to understand.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
Overall, I guess I'm in the camp of time = money and money = time. So P2W is just another side of the coin. I just determine how much of it I can handle and seek my fun.
I guess in conclusion, take your gaming purity views and realize it is not realistic to expect that type of belief in America. Don't blame the companies for trying to maximize their profit, it is their act of worship basically. If you don't like it, don't play the game.
Which is fine. As long as people feel like you I hope there are games that support that type of monetization that you enjoy.
Similarly, I am in the camp that success or failure in a game should be dictated by what happens in that game. I'm looking forward to some of these sub model games on the horizon to see if there are enough who feel the same way to make it a legitimate alternative.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
Similarly, I am in the camp that success or failure in a game should be dictated by what happens in that game. I'm looking forward to some of these sub model games on the horizon to see if there are enough who feel the same way to make it a legitimate alternative.
I actually agree with you. I just think it is unrealistic to expect that in this day and age. I also am offended that we have to lock our bikes at the bike rike. How pathetic is that, that we have to lock a bike in a bike rack, but it's unrealistic for me to expect people not to steal.
Also, I think stealing a bike is a bit different than P2W, but I also think some people like P2W.
Do you think Path of Exile is P2W? The cash shop only has cosmetics and extra stash tabs and specialized stash tabs. Also, to effectively trade, you need to buy a special type of tab for a few $. The game is F2P.
Cryomatrix
Catch me streaming at twitch.tv/cryomatrix You can see my sci-fi/WW2 book recommendations.
I'll jump back into this argument. I was on toddler duty all yesterday and before that was called in to work at 4 am.
Nonetheless,
America is a capitalist country. The God of America is money. Companies can make games with varying levels of monetization schemes. I don't blame them. They want to make a lame ass P2W game, then so be it, i'll vote with my feet, and play something else. The P2W doesn't bother me, I am not offended by companies seeking to maximize profits at the expense of the video game purists because quite frankly, the video game purists are outnumbered and/or not even their audience. It is what companies in America do. You just roll with it. If BF2 wants to add their P2W elements, i'm fine with it, i'm just definitely not playing the game.
If there is a game where a person puts in $10,000 to wield a +20 sword and no one else has greater than +10. You know what, I'm okay with that. It is America, you get what you pay for, you want a +20 sword and want to put $10k USD go ahead, you deserve to WTF Pwn me if i see you in PvP. You paid for that right. I truly don't see much of a difference between someone who plays 60 hours a week for a year and has achieved all the best gear in the game. They sacrificed time for that right. Another sacrificed money for that right. It's the same to me.
Now cheating is a whole different story, which I won't get into.
Either way, if fun for you is being the best at a game and people with a bigger wallet ruin it for you, then don't play that game, I gave up being the best in games a long time ago as I don't have the time or am I willing to spend the money to do it.
Overall, I guess I'm in the camp of time = money and money = time. So P2W is just another side of the coin. I just determine how much of it I can handle and seek my fun.
I guess in conclusion, take your gaming purity views and realize it is not realistic to expect that type of belief in America. Don't blame the companies for trying to maximize their profit, it is their act of worship basically. If you don't like it, don't play the game.
Cryomatrix P.S. I work in the healthcare business, if you think P2W is an affront to your views, health insurance is a Pay-to-fuck-people-over scheme, but instead of being voluntary, you have to pay for it and the health insurance companies will fuck you over and they fuck over the physicians as well, all at the expense of your health . Now that is an affront, P2W is just silly bullshit.
I think Cryomatrix has cracked it, we need a state run MMO from a communist country. You don't pay but you do have to play, or they send the boys round.
The thing about our "gaming purity" values is that they were founded in the UK, the US etc. By companies that did not take the suckers for every penny they could and had people in them that espoused the values we are talking about.
This is not about capitalism, it is about a corporate mentality that gaming companies bought into by literally bringing in people like a new CEO for EA who had no experience in gaming companies. What he did have is ways of maximising profit from companies like Haagen-Dazs and that started EA games on the path to becoming moulded into MT machines.
Similarly, I am in the camp that success or failure in a game should be dictated by what happens in that game. I'm looking forward to some of these sub model games on the horizon to see if there are enough who feel the same way to make it a legitimate alternative.
I actually agree with you. I just think it is unrealistic to expect that in this day and age. I also am offended that we have to lock our bikes at the bike rike. How pathetic is that, that we have to lock a bike in a bike rack, but it's unrealistic for me to expect people not to steal.
Also, I think stealing a bike is a bit different than P2W, but I also think some people like P2W.
Do you think Path of Exile is P2W? The cash shop only has cosmetics and extra stash tabs and specialized stash tabs. Also, to effectively trade, you need to buy a special type of tab for a few $. The game is F2P.
Cryomatrix
I don't know. I haven't played that game in a long, long time. As I have described before... I think P2W falls along a sliding scale. I'd guess POE is more than zero P2W but far less than full out P2W.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
If I log in, and I can enjoy the game, then whatever P2W that exists is not stopping me from enjoying the game, then that is good design, if I log in and need o worry about other players ganking me, killing me or ruining my fun, then no matter how "pure" the game might be, it is bad design.
Hey you are entitled to your opinions. One point though, your statement about players ganking you has absolutely zero to do with P2W. That can happen in any pay model.
Exactly.
See there is nothing special or fair about games without P2W.
P2W adds another tier of ganking. You caught up with the guy who had played longer than you and then he out spends you. Two wrongs do not make a right.
I would not want to play the game if someone who was playing longer then me could gank me to start with, a shitty game is a shitty game, with or without P2W.
As game that has an item shop, but keeps things balanced to the game, is a better game, even with it's vaunted P2W item Mall.
Case in point,if someone could buy a level 100, boost, but then could only fight someone within 10% of their level, while the game may have P2W, with the level boost, but the game is still far more balanced then a game that does not have P2w, but lets a level 100 attack a level 1 player.
Is this sinking in or am I talking to a brick wall?
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
If I log in, and I can enjoy the game, then whatever P2W that exists is not stopping me from enjoying the game, then that is good design, if I log in and need o worry about other players ganking me, killing me or ruining my fun, then no matter how "pure" the game might be, it is bad design.
Hey you are entitled to your opinions. One point though, your statement about players ganking you has absolutely zero to do with P2W. That can happen in any pay model.
Exactly.
See there is nothing special or fair about games without P2W.
Exactly. Just like removing an aimbot doesn't make the game any fairer because people can still use map hacks. Right?
That makes no sense at all, but then again, You equate things sanctioned and made by the game developers themselves for players to use.. as cheating.
So.. I was not expecting much in the way of reasoned responses.
Ill try to speak in simpler terms to you from now on.
Removing one practice like P2W does not magically make any other unfair trait disappear. That said, if a game has multiple "unfair" traits and removes one, most people would still see that as progress or at least I do.
Again- to me it's really simple. Success in a game should be dictated by what happens inside the game. You can feel free to disagree but I think it's a pretty simple concept to understand.
Let me say this again in more simple ways.
A shitty game with a shitty set up, does not magically become a better game if they remove the Item Shop.
If I use what the game gives me, I am not cheating, what next, will you say Looking at my inventory screen is cheating?
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
If I log in, and I can enjoy the game, then whatever P2W that exists is not stopping me from enjoying the game, then that is good design, if I log in and need o worry about other players ganking me, killing me or ruining my fun, then no matter how "pure" the game might be, it is bad design.
Hey you are entitled to your opinions. One point though, your statement about players ganking you has absolutely zero to do with P2W. That can happen in any pay model.
Exactly.
See there is nothing special or fair about games without P2W.
P2W adds another tier of ganking. You caught up with the guy who had played longer than you and then he out spends you. Two wrongs do not make a right.
I would not want to play the game if someone who was playing longer then me could gank me to start with, a shitty game is a shitty game, with or without P2W.
As game that has an item shop, but keeps things balanced to the game, is a better game, even with it's vaunted P2W item Mall.
Case in point,if someone could buy a level 100, boost, but then could only fight someone within 10% of their level, while the game may have P2W, with the level boost, but the game is still far more balanced then a game that does not have P2w, but lets a level 100 attack a level 1 player.
Is this sinking in or am I talking to a brick wall?
I don't think Scot is the brick wall.
Use your case in point. You again toss in ganking as some balance to P2W. It's a totally separate discussion.
You can have the exact same rule "no ganking over 10% level difference" without allowing real money to buy the level 100 character. If you want to discuss concepts to limit ganking I think that would make a great (but separate) thread.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
If I log in, and I can enjoy the game, then whatever P2W that exists is not stopping me from enjoying the game, then that is good design, if I log in and need o worry about other players ganking me, killing me or ruining my fun, then no matter how "pure" the game might be, it is bad design.
Hey you are entitled to your opinions. One point though, your statement about players ganking you has absolutely zero to do with P2W. That can happen in any pay model.
Exactly.
See there is nothing special or fair about games without P2W.
Exactly. Just like removing an aimbot doesn't make the game any fairer because people can still use map hacks. Right?
That makes no sense at all, but then again, You equate things sanctioned and made by the game developers themselves for players to use.. as cheating.
So.. I was not expecting much in the way of reasoned responses.
Ill try to speak in simpler terms to you from now on.
Removing one practice like P2W does not magically make any other unfair trait disappear. That said, if a game has multiple "unfair" traits and removes one, most people would still see that as progress or at least I do.
Again- to me it's really simple. Success in a game should be dictated by what happens inside the game. You can feel free to disagree but I think it's a pretty simple concept to understand.
Let me say this again in more simple ways.
A shitty game with a shitty set up, does not magically become a better game if they remove the Item Shop.
If I use what the game gives me, I am not cheating, what next, will you say Looking at my inventory screen is cheating?
See post above this.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
I don't know. I haven't played that game in a long, long time. As I have described before... I think P2W falls along a sliding scale. I'd guess POE is more than zero P2W but far less than full out P2W.
If you were Path of Exile, and your game is totally free, how would you fund the development? or would you do a subscription or service based. Grim Dawn is a direct competitor of Path of Exile and it is B2P.
Grim Dawn playing now on Steam: 5,049 Path of Exile playing now on Steam: 32,574
For reference: PUBG: 1,187,613
Cryomatrix
Catch me streaming at twitch.tv/cryomatrix You can see my sci-fi/WW2 book recommendations.
I don't know. I haven't played that game in a long, long time. As I have described before... I think P2W falls along a sliding scale. I'd guess POE is more than zero P2W but far less than full out P2W.
If you were Path of Exile, and your game is totally free, how would you fund the development? or would you do a subscription or service based. Grim Dawn is a direct competitor of Path of Exile and it is B2P.
Grim Dawn playing now on Steam: 5,049 Path of Exile playing now on Steam: 32,574
For reference: PUBG: 1,187,613
Cryomatrix
I don't know or remember enough about PoE to answer that.
FYI GrimDawn is on sale for literally $7.49 right now on Humble so I'm not sure we can say that is much of a barrier to entry.
Sometimes people buy and play games just because of how fun they are and it has nothing to do with monetization.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
If I log in, and I can enjoy the game, then whatever P2W that exists is not stopping me from enjoying the game, then that is good design, if I log in and need o worry about other players ganking me, killing me or ruining my fun, then no matter how "pure" the game might be, it is bad design.
Hey you are entitled to your opinions. One point though, your statement about players ganking you has absolutely zero to do with P2W. That can happen in any pay model.
Exactly.
See there is nothing special or fair about games without P2W.
P2W adds another tier of ganking. You caught up with the guy who had played longer than you and then he out spends you. Two wrongs do not make a right.
I would not want to play the game if someone who was playing longer then me could gank me to start with, a shitty game is a shitty game, with or without P2W.
As game that has an item shop, but keeps things balanced to the game, is a better game, even with it's vaunted P2W item Mall.
Case in point,if someone could buy a level 100, boost, but then could only fight someone within 10% of their level, while the game may have P2W, with the level boost, but the game is still far more balanced then a game that does not have P2w, but lets a level 100 attack a level 1 player.
Is this sinking in or am I talking to a brick wall?
I don't think Scot is the brick wall.
Use your case in point. You again toss in ganking as some balance to P2W. It's a totally separate discussion.
You can have the exact same rule "no ganking over 10% level difference" without allowing real money to buy the level 100 character. If you want to discuss concepts to limit ganking I think that would make a great (but separate) thread.
You could have the same rule without the P2W.. but then the P2W becomes insignificant to the enjoyment of the game, because its a balanced game.. the money is not the problem, never was, and never will be.
Sinking in yet?
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
If I log in, and I can enjoy the game, then whatever P2W that exists is not stopping me from enjoying the game, then that is good design, if I log in and need o worry about other players ganking me, killing me or ruining my fun, then no matter how "pure" the game might be, it is bad design.
Hey you are entitled to your opinions. One point though, your statement about players ganking you has absolutely zero to do with P2W. That can happen in any pay model.
Exactly.
See there is nothing special or fair about games without P2W.
P2W adds another tier of ganking. You caught up with the guy who had played longer than you and then he out spends you. Two wrongs do not make a right.
I would not want to play the game if someone who was playing longer then me could gank me to start with, a shitty game is a shitty game, with or without P2W.
As game that has an item shop, but keeps things balanced to the game, is a better game, even with it's vaunted P2W item Mall.
Case in point,if someone could buy a level 100, boost, but then could only fight someone within 10% of their level, while the game may have P2W, with the level boost, but the game is still far more balanced then a game that does not have P2w, but lets a level 100 attack a level 1 player.
Is this sinking in or am I talking to a brick wall?
I don't think Scot is the brick wall.
Use your case in point. You again toss in ganking as some balance to P2W. It's a totally separate discussion.
You can have the exact same rule "no ganking over 10% level difference" without allowing real money to buy the level 100 character. If you want to discuss concepts to limit ganking I think that would make a great (but separate) thread.
You could have the same rule without the P2W.. but then the P2W becomes insignificant to the enjoyment of the game, because its a balanced game.. the money is not the problem, never was, and never will be.
Sinking in yet?
Wow... could not disagree more.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
Comments
For whatever reasons, player behavior changed and started quickly losing interest shortly after launch, so the old model changed, several times actually into where we are today.
Developers these days figure out well before before launch (sometimes during design) what monetization techniques are likely to maximize revenues for the longest period of time, including developing strategies to change it over time.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
NO
This is not just about MMO's Kyleran, it is about gaming as a whole.
GTA 5 earned around $800 million on its first day, three times what it cost to make. But the cash shop keeps on milking the players. This is about using games as a reason for getting people hooked on monetisation, not using monetization to help pay for the cost to make them.
Your argument about MMOs has some truth, but we see games outside that genre all moving to the same MT and gambling model. In fact we are moving to a point where every game by major studios will be online, multiplayer and MT'd to the hilt.
When you say "For whatever reasons, player behaviour changed and started quickly losing interest shortly after launch" I think the reasons for that were quite clear. MMO's started to chase a new player base, players who mostly play solo games. That began with WoW. It was those players who started to lose interest shortly after launch. It was a drive for more profit that led to huge changes in MMO gameplay back then, it is the drive for more P2W profit that is leading to huge changes to MMO gameplay now.
CF sounds quite reasonable from what Slapshot is saying; buy your private kingdom but don't expect it to influence game play. We do want everyone from designers to publishers to make money, it is just how they make it.
The Time of sub based games is over. I have no doubt that some games will have new ways to cash in, like one of the most inventive ways to make things work, was Black Gold, which literally sold time, but not in the way you would imagine, you could play for free, but if you wanted to save your progress you had to pay for it, in that front, it was a unique and Inventive idea that you could use in your favor, like for example, run a time gated Raid that can only be run once a week, didn't get what you want, don't save and run it again tomorrow, and only save when you get what you want, Sadly, Black Gold in a pretty much unknown dead game. CoE, has another plan where they sell life.
So again, keeping some hope that item malls and P2W will not happen is delusional, it's not that there is no room for other ideas, but, that ideas like Subs are proven failures, and not only that, even on this topic alone people have called subs p2w, so.. there is that problem as well. Some people view what you find acceptable fees as P2W, ain't that just life.
Which brings us back to the real question "What should be sold"
We know games need funding to stay alive and be maintained, so a game company needs to find ways to entice people to spend money.
I've said on another post there are a few ways this can be done.
They can do this several ways.
Read more at https://forums.mmorpg.com/discussion/471281/is-there-a-right-way-to-do-p2w-pay-to-win/p2#G6UDQxaXfsdveYpl.99
There is always room for new ideas, and new ways to secure income, but trying to revitalize a system that is failing.
In conclusion, when it comes to P2W.
If I log in, and I can enjoy the game, then whatever P2W that exists is not stopping me from enjoying the game, then that is good design, if I log in and need o worry about other players ganking me, killing me or ruining my fun, then no matter how "pure" the game might be, it is bad design.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
See there is nothing special or fair about games without P2W.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
I won't pay to win, I will buy stuff to make my toon unique (ala WH40K Eternal Crusade) but I won't pay for power nor will I play (for long) a game where power can be purchased. Especially if it comes to PvP.
Feel free to complain about it all you want obviously each person is entitled to their opinion, but until you start voting with your wallet these things will never go away.
In my opinion, box price (including dig dl or any other means of distribution) + monthly subscription if preferred, however, I also realize the borderline Attention Deficit Disorder the (seemingly) majority of gamers have now so I doubt this model will become popular anytime soon.
If you want a new idea, go read an old book.
In order to be insulted, I must first value your opinion.
So.. I was not expecting much in the way of reasoned responses.
Nonetheless,
America is a capitalist country. The God of America is money. Companies can make games with varying levels of monetization schemes. I don't blame them. They want to make a lame ass P2W game, then so be it, i'll vote with my feet, and play something else. The P2W doesn't bother me, I am not offended by companies seeking to maximize profits at the expense of the video game purists because quite frankly, the video game purists are outnumbered and/or not even their audience. It is what companies in America do. You just roll with it. If BF2 wants to add their P2W elements, i'm fine with it, i'm just definitely not playing the game.
If there is a game where a person puts in $10,000 to wield a +20 sword and no one else has greater than +10. You know what, I'm okay with that. It is America, you get what you pay for, you want a +20 sword and want to put $10k USD go ahead, you deserve to WTF Pwn me if i see you in PvP. You paid for that right. I truly don't see much of a difference between someone who plays 60 hours a week for a year and has achieved all the best gear in the game. They sacrificed time for that right. Another sacrificed money for that right. It's the same to me.
Now cheating is a whole different story, which I won't get into.
Either way, if fun for you is being the best at a game and people with a bigger wallet ruin it for you, then don't play that game, I gave up being the best in games a long time ago as I don't have the time or am I willing to spend the money to do it.
Overall, I guess I'm in the camp of time = money and money = time. So P2W is just another side of the coin. I just determine how much of it I can handle and seek my fun.
I guess in conclusion, take your gaming purity views and realize it is not realistic to expect that type of belief in America. Don't blame the companies for trying to maximize their profit, it is their act of worship basically. If you don't like it, don't play the game.
Cryomatrix
P.S. I work in the healthcare business, if you think P2W is an affront to your views, health insurance is a Pay-to-fuck-people-over scheme, but instead of being voluntary, you have to pay for it and the health insurance companies will fuck you over and they fuck over the physicians as well, all at the expense of your health
You can see my sci-fi/WW2 book recommendations.
Removing one practice like P2W does not magically make any other unfair trait disappear. That said, if a game has multiple "unfair" traits and removes one, most people would still see that as progress or at least I do.
Again- to me it's really simple. Success in a game should be dictated by what happens inside the game. You can feel free to disagree but I think it's a pretty simple concept to understand.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
Similarly, I am in the camp that success or failure in a game should be dictated by what happens in that game. I'm looking forward to some of these sub model games on the horizon to see if there are enough who feel the same way to make it a legitimate alternative.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
Also, I think stealing a bike is a bit different than P2W, but I also think some people like P2W.
Do you think Path of Exile is P2W? The cash shop only has cosmetics and extra stash tabs and specialized stash tabs. Also, to effectively trade, you need to buy a special type of tab for a few $. The game is F2P.
Cryomatrix
You can see my sci-fi/WW2 book recommendations.
I think Cryomatrix has cracked it, we need a state run MMO from a communist country. You don't pay but you do have to play, or they send the boys round.
The thing about our "gaming purity" values is that they were founded in the UK, the US etc. By companies that did not take the suckers for every penny they could and had people in them that espoused the values we are talking about.
This is not about capitalism, it is about a corporate mentality that gaming companies bought into by literally bringing in people like a new CEO for EA who had no experience in gaming companies. What he did have is ways of maximising profit from companies like Haagen-Dazs and that started EA games on the path to becoming moulded into MT machines.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
As game that has an item shop, but keeps things balanced to the game, is a better game, even with it's vaunted P2W item Mall.
Case in point,if someone could buy a level 100, boost, but then could only fight someone within 10% of their level, while the game may have P2W, with the level boost, but the game is still far more balanced then a game that does not have P2w, but lets a level 100 attack a level 1 player.
Is this sinking in or am I talking to a brick wall?
A shitty game with a shitty set up, does not magically become a better game if they remove the Item Shop.
If I use what the game gives me, I am not cheating, what next, will you say Looking at my inventory screen is cheating?
Use your case in point. You again toss in ganking as some balance to P2W. It's a totally separate discussion.
You can have the exact same rule "no ganking over 10% level difference" without allowing real money to buy the level 100 character. If you want to discuss concepts to limit ganking I think that would make a great (but separate) thread.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
Grim Dawn playing now on Steam: 5,049
Path of Exile playing now on Steam: 32,574
For reference:
PUBG: 1,187,613
Cryomatrix
You can see my sci-fi/WW2 book recommendations.
FYI GrimDawn is on sale for literally $7.49 right now on Humble so I'm not sure we can say that is much of a barrier to entry.
Sometimes people buy and play games just because of how fun they are and it has nothing to do with monetization.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
Sinking in yet?
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018