Pirated/stolen Ships will NOT disappear when logging out

Turrican187

... or will be avaiable just "for the session" ...
This was meant to describe how it is working in 3.0 and 3.1 but future plans will be revealed this week on RTV

This has been confirmed by DiscoLando:
https://www.twitch.tv/videos/224358368?t=00h36m46s

Cheers!

MaxBacon

And there it is, the original design still standing, for those who always liked it, and for those who always hated it.

Ship Stolen > Ship Destruction is the base design and is logical to have it stand, make stolen ships way more likely to get destroyed if balance becomes a concern is one way to go at it as well I think.

The only certain thing is that there shall always be people angry independent of where this design ends when it gets executed.

Arglebargle

There are problems that will come up whatever way CIG does it.  Just by its very nature.  With the trouble being relatively equal, go for the more immersive choice.

If ships are useable after being stolen,  there will be the problem of 'theft fraud', where owners arrange to have their ships stolen to get the insurance, and double the number of vessals.   That's likely to be more trouble at the initial stages of the game, and with the rarer spacecraft.  

But it's better than ships going *poof*, that's for sure.

MaxBacon

Arglebargle said:

If ships are useable after being stolen,  there will be the problem of 'theft fraud', where owners arrange to have their ships stolen to get the insurance, and double the number of vessals.   That's likely to be more trouble at the initial stages of the game, and with the rarer spacecraft.  

That thing is going to be one issue with or without the stolen ships persisting.

Just the fact I could destroy your ship and salvage the wreck can be exploited in that way, you and me planning ahead such event so you claim insurance afterward and I get the salvage spoils.

So insurance fraud is beyond stealing the ship and a problem that needs one universal solution.

Kyleran

MaxBacon said:

Arglebargle said:

If ships are useable after being stolen,  there will be the problem of 'theft fraud', where owners arrange to have their ships stolen to get the insurance, and double the number of vessals.   That's likely to be more trouble at the initial stages of the game, and with the rarer spacecraft.  

That thing is going to be one issue with or without the stolen ships persisting.

Just the fact I could destroy your ship and salvage the wreck can be exploited in that way, you and me planning ahead such event so you claim insurance afterward and I get the salvage spoils.

So insurance fraud is beyond stealing the ship and a problem that needs one universal solution.

you solve it like EVE does, you design it so insurance reduces a players loss, but not totally replace what they lost.

MaxBacon

Kyleran said:

you solve it like EVE does, you design it so insurance reduces a players loss, but not totally replace what they lost.

It already doesn't, Insurance is the base hull ship, what you upgraded, your cargo and so is not covered, that part of it is lost.

But that wouldn't change that you can just use a default ship without the upgrades and all to commit such fraud, in there the only retainer is the time/cost it will take to pay your ship back.

So I guess the solution must pass through account for the number, frequency and conditions of the insurance claims you make, and scale the consequences from there.

Balmong

MaxBacon said:

Kyleran said:

you solve it like EVE does, you design it so insurance reduces a players loss, but not totally replace what they lost.

It already doesn't, Insurance is the base hull ship, what you upgraded, your cargo and so is not covered, that part of it is lost.

But that wouldn't change that you can just use a default ship without the upgrades and all to commit such fraud, in there the only retainer is the time/cost it will take to pay your ship back.

So I guess the solution must pass through account for the number, frequency and conditions of the insurance claims you make, and scale the consequences from there.

CR floated the idea of a sort of VIN # attached to each ship, so they could track when it would change hands. And the method of making an illegal ship a legal one is supposed to involve a lot of effort and rep with pirate factions, which a law abiding citizen won't be able to get without consequences.

Also cargo and after market parts can be insured, it's just done separately from the hull insurance.

MaxBacon

Balmong said:

CR floated the idea of a sort of VIN # attached to each ship, so they could track when it would change hands. And the method of making an illegal ship a legal one is supposed to involve a lot of effort and rep with pirate factions, which a law abiding citizen won't be able to get without consequences.

Also cargo and after market parts can be insured, it's just done separately from the hull insurance.

Oh it's entirely possible in the backend to track a ship id when it changes hands, that's not going to be a problem, the problem lies in algorithms that must be created to sustain a system capable to consider the history and the conditions things happen and even that out on the insurance claim. And that is exactly the sort of things players will exploit, any way to dodge it will be eventually exploited (such as gold sellers always learn the game systems to be able to mitigate how often they get flagged).

So it's really a problem, and this is why we see MMOs just going entirely "not possible", some even don't lt you trade many things and so on, because the safest way to fix exploits is put everything that can be exploited in a literal "lockdown" (like BDO after the hacking/gold seller rampage).

I can think of many things that can be used to mitigate it, but in every one of them I can also think of ways I could dodge it, unless I limit the mechanic itself. On this case, make keeping the ships you steal not that worth it.

Balmong

MaxBacon said:

Balmong said:

CR floated the idea of a sort of VIN # attached to each ship, so they could track when it would change hands. And the method of making an illegal ship a legal one is supposed to involve a lot of effort and rep with pirate factions, which a law abiding citizen won't be able to get without consequences.

Also cargo and after market parts can be insured, it's just done separately from the hull insurance.

Oh it's entirely possible in the backend to track a ship id when it changes hands, that's not going to be a problem, the problem lies in algorithms that must be created to sustain a system capable to consider the history and the conditions things happen and even that out on the insurance claim. And that is exactly the sort of things players will exploit, any way to dodge it will be eventually exploited (such as gold sellers always learn the game systems to be able to mitigate how often they get flagged).

So it's really a problem, and this is why we see MMOs just going entirely "not possible", some even don't lt you trade many things and so on, because the safest way to fix exploits is put everything that can be exploited in a literal "lockdown" (like BDO after the hacking/gold seller rampage).

I can think of many things that can be used to mitigate it, but in every one of them I can also think of ways I could dodge it, unless I limit the mechanic itself. On this case, make keeping the ships you steal not that worth it.

I get what you're saying, people will always find a way to skirt a rule if they can. Your last paragraph touches on the same conclusion CR came to though, they have to make the effort to do it more than the pay out to try and mitigate exploits. If you steal a ship and sell it to your local chop shop, that's one thing, but registering it as your own should definitely be an arduous process. 

In a lot of the games with the gold farmer problems, players can trade for that in fairly simple ways. Either directly through an in game mail system (which usually gets you caught nowadays), direct trade, or AH. I don't think SC will have as many issues as the others, because I doubt you'll be able to send someone a ship in the mail. Limiting the portal player's can use to actually claim a stolen ship will help their cause.

MaxBacon

Balmong said:

I get what you're saying, people will always find a way to skirt a rule if they can. Your last paragraph touches on the same conclusion CR came to though, they have to make the effort to do it more than the pay out to try and mitigate exploits. If you steal a ship and sell it to your local chop shop, that's one thing, but registering it as your own should definitely be an arduous process. 

In a lot of the games with the gold farmer problems, players can trade for that in fairly simple ways. Either directly through an in game mail system (which usually gets you caught nowadays), direct trade, or AH. I don't think SC will have as many issues as the others, because I doubt you'll be able to send someone a ship in the mail. Limiting the portal player's can use to actually claim a stolen ship will help their cause.

Yes, that is exactly the sort of thing.

You steal a ship and all, but keep it must be discouraged in ways that even out with the users who legitimately play, earn and buy them, it can never be "the easy way to grow a fleet" neither from what I see was ever meant as that, instead meant for being a profitable activity. If stealing a ship that persists becomes the easy way to get a ship, it values piracy too much and then everyone wants to be a piracy, and then it's easy to imagine it will create one higher balance problem with the game pop itself.

So the question lies, how can we make ships persist for who steals them up to give them a possibility to even register that stolen ship, but at the same time making that action be of equal (or lower) attraction to you playing and buying the ships normally?

I think that question needs to come before how do we go about exploitation.

Balmong

MaxBacon said:

Balmong said:

I get what you're saying, people will always find a way to skirt a rule if they can. Your last paragraph touches on the same conclusion CR came to though, they have to make the effort to do it more than the pay out to try and mitigate exploits. If you steal a ship and sell it to your local chop shop, that's one thing, but registering it as your own should definitely be an arduous process. 

In a lot of the games with the gold farmer problems, players can trade for that in fairly simple ways. Either directly through an in game mail system (which usually gets you caught nowadays), direct trade, or AH. I don't think SC will have as many issues as the others, because I doubt you'll be able to send someone a ship in the mail. Limiting the portal player's can use to actually claim a stolen ship will help their cause.

Yes, that is exactly the sort of thing.

You steal a ship and all, but keep it must be discouraged in ways that even out with the users who legitimately play, earn and buy them, it can never be "the easy way to grow a fleet" neither from what I see was ever meant as that, instead meant for being a profitable activity. If stealing a ship that persists becomes the easy way to get a ship, it values piracy too much and then everyone wants to be a piracy, and then it's easy to imagine it will create one higher balance problem with the game pop itself.

So the question lies, how can we make ships persist for who steals them up to give them a possibility to even register that stolen ship, but at the same time making that action be of equal (or lower) attraction to you playing and buying the ships normally?

I think that question needs to come before how do we go about exploitation.

My buddies and I planned on going the pirate route when the game launches, so this is a line of discussion that we've been following fairly close. CIG had mentioned at the time when they were discussing all this that after the ship has been stolen, the danger doesn't end there. You're now flying a "hot" ship, and any Advocacy agent is immediately going to gun for you. Since you don't have any insurance on that ship, if it get's crippled or destroyed, that's it for your endeavor. Another topic was players being able to put up a legal bounty for the pirates, allowing other players to legitimately target them without Rules of Engagement coming into play.


If you think about it, that creates a "you vs the world" scenario, because another thing CIG mentioned is that just because you're a pirate, that doesn't mean other pirates won't attack you, so you aren't even safe in Outlaw space. The logistics of pulling that off could be that pain in the butt that would be needed to keep it from getting out of hand.

MaxBacon

Balmong said:

My buddies and I planned on going the pirate route when the game launches, so this is a line of discussion that we've been following fairly close. CIG had mentioned at the time when they were discussing all this that after the ship has been stolen, the danger doesn't end there. You're now flying a "hot" ship, and any Advocacy agent is immediately going to gun for you. Since you don't have any insurance on that ship, if it get's crippled or destroyed, that's it for your endeavor. Another topic was players being able to put up a legal bounty for the pirates, allowing other players to legitimately target them without Rules of Engagement coming into play.


If you think about it, that creates a "you vs the world" scenario, because another thing CIG mentioned is that just because you're a pirate, that doesn't mean other pirates won't attack you, so you aren't even safe in Outlaw space. The logistics of pulling that off could be that pain in the butt that would be needed to keep it from getting out of hand.

I think flying stolen ships could feed gameplay both ways say if when you do, you easily get a bounty in your head by the AI what is undertaking by players in the shape of mission availability.

And yeah pirates stealing stolen ships might be a thing, after all, thief who steal from a thief... I don't think that would be reported as a crime? :P 

Balmong

MaxBacon said:

Balmong said:

My buddies and I planned on going the pirate route when the game launches, so this is a line of discussion that we've been following fairly close. CIG had mentioned at the time when they were discussing all this that after the ship has been stolen, the danger doesn't end there. You're now flying a "hot" ship, and any Advocacy agent is immediately going to gun for you. Since you don't have any insurance on that ship, if it get's crippled or destroyed, that's it for your endeavor. Another topic was players being able to put up a legal bounty for the pirates, allowing other players to legitimately target them without Rules of Engagement coming into play.


If you think about it, that creates a "you vs the world" scenario, because another thing CIG mentioned is that just because you're a pirate, that doesn't mean other pirates won't attack you, so you aren't even safe in Outlaw space. The logistics of pulling that off could be that pain in the butt that would be needed to keep it from getting out of hand.

I think flying stolen ships could feed gameplay both ways say if when you do, you easily get a bounty in your head by the AI what is undertaking by players in the shape of mission availability.

And yeah pirates stealing stolen ships might be a thing, after all, thief who steal from a thief... I don't think that would be reported as a crime? :P 

You just hit on something I feel is important to remember, player interactions. Ship stealing is one of those things that could help foster that organic feeling they're looking for. If the simple act of doing it can spawn a flurry of activity on both sides, both in support of and against, you could have something pretty cool on your hands.

Turrican187

An ID system is mandatory for every game where someone can spawn a ship and leave in order to have a kind of "ownership" this is easy just give the asset a Hash variable.

Now you can set up a security system of users who may access the ship without beeing flagged as criminal for GTS (Grand Theft Ship). This is still the easy part.

Now we need to have an eye on some situations.
* You land on a Planet and die cause of non player interaction like getting eaten by a sandworm, death by falling meteor ...etc.
In this case you need to respawn and claim insurance or get back to the planet by hiking, until you claim your ship has to stay where you left it and the only way to get rid of it is making it *poof* ... well you could set up a decay where it gets worn and old and will fall apart after x amount of time but spaceships are rough and it would take years and will fill distinct POI with spacetrash in no time.

Now what if in the meantime someone enters your ship (from now on we call him Piratee) because you let the door open while getting eaten by sandworm - Unless Piratee is not touching anything his criminal record stays clean (neither cargo nor controls). If he sats down on the pilot chair or he is stealing cargo he will be flagged for the appropriate crime.
Now Piratee flys away with your ship without you knowing it, flagged for GTS.
If you claim your insurance, it will spawn a new ship with a new hash and your old ship is flagged as stolen (security measures have to be overwritten now by the pirate with i.e. hacking). Piratee can now leave the ship without it getting *poofed* because it is a stolen ship without specific ownership. He has now to fly to the next smugglers base to get the hash replaced by a generic one thats not on the stolen ship database. So he can fly it until it gets destroyed.

We just have the possible frustration of full loot here because this is what happens the pirate not only drives your ship far far away, he takes it technical modifiers (weapons, shields, etc) and cargo with it. Furthermore Pirates can loiter at POIs and snipe you away and take your stuff. If you ever played TESO you know the fun of a char with a 50k gold bounty on you (this is not sarcastic ).
But basically it is not like other sandbox games where the PKs can outlevel and grief you until the game dies (cause of grieving like in Darkfall).

So yes, possible, yes it has a high frustration potential and yes exploitable (in terms of camper).

Wizardry

Just remove the insurance,not like anyone earned these ships in any immersive way.The immersion was already lost the first time they introduced the cash shop.

THEY SC and team turned what could have been a promising game into nothing more than a cash shop in space.Sad really because almost always it is the cheats and hackers that ruin a game,here the developer managed to ruin it before it is even finished.

Turrican187

Wizardry said:

Just remove the insurance,not like anyone earned these ships in any immersive way.The immersion was already lost the first time they introduced the cash shop.

THEY SC and team turned what could have been a promising game into nothing more than a cash shop in space.Sad really because almost always it is the cheats and hackers that ruin a game,here the developer managed to ruin it before it is even finished.

Well the SC cash grabbing is out of control anyways, they piled up tech dept for the next 20 years (resisted to say generation) without iterating if the mechanics are possible or not.
I.e. you can see the Tank they sold as a Turret on wheels but it opens up a complete new view on balancing this whole thing (which was already impossible to balance before though).

Balmong

Turrican187 said:

An ID system is mandatory for every game where someone can spawn a ship and leave in order to have a kind of "ownership" this is easy just give the asset a Hash variable.

Now you can set up a security system of users who may access the ship without beeing flagged as criminal for GTS (Grand Theft Ship). This is still the easy part.

Now we need to have an eye on some situations.
* You land on a Planet and die cause of non player interaction like getting eaten by a sandworm, death by falling meteor ...etc.
In this case you need to respawn and claim insurance or get back to the planet by hiking, until you claim your ship has to stay where you left it and the only way to get rid of it is making it *poof* ... well you could set up a decay where it gets worn and old and will fall apart after x amount of time but spaceships are rough and it would take years and will fill distinct POI with spacetrash in no time.

Now what if in the meantime someone enters your ship (from now on we call him Piratee) because you let the door open while getting eaten by sandworm - Unless Piratee is not touching anything his criminal record stays clean (neither cargo nor controls). If he sats down on the pilot chair or he is stealing cargo he will be flagged for the appropriate crime.
Now Piratee flys away with your ship without you knowing it, flagged for GTS.
If you claim your insurance, it will spawn a new ship with a new hash and your old ship is flagged as stolen (security measures have to be overwritten now by the pirate with i.e. hacking). Piratee can now leave the ship without it getting *poofed* because it is a stolen ship without specific ownership. He has now to fly to the next smugglers base to get the hash replaced by a generic one thats not on the stolen ship database. So he can fly it until it gets destroyed.

We just have the possible frustration of full loot here because this is what happens the pirate not only drives your ship far far away, he takes it technical modifiers (weapons, shields, etc) and cargo with it. Furthermore Pirates can loiter at POIs and snipe you away and take your stuff. If you ever played TESO you know the fun of a char with a 50k gold bounty on you (this is not sarcastic ).
But basically it is not like other sandbox games where the PKs can outlevel and grief you until the game dies (cause of grieving like in Darkfall).

So yes, possible, yes it has a high frustration potential and yes exploitable (in terms of camper).

The camping part can be mitigated through the PvP/PvE slider, unless you're in a high risk area that the slider doesn't really effect, at that point it's on you for being there by yourself.

There was also mention of a form of "pirate insurance" for stolen ships, but that it would be wildly expensive in comparison to legit insurance. 

CIG mentioned that the caveat for doing things like insuring a stolen ship or even scrubbing it, so you don't get insta-gibbed on being scanned by the Advocacy, would be tied to reputation with factions. So you're average Joe Shmoe who got bored hanging out in secure space couldn't instantly go pirate and rob the guys ship on the pad next to his to claim it as his own. Just like pirates won't be able to interact with UEE factions, lawful citizens wouldn't immediately have access to pirate benefits you have to work for.

Turrican187

Balmong said:
The camping part can be mitigated through the PvP/PvE slider, unless you're in a high risk area that the slider doesn't really effect, at that point it's on you for being there by yourself. 

[...]

Unfortunately they scrapped the idea of a PvP slider years ago.

MaxBacon

Turrican187 said:

Balmong said:
The camping part can be mitigated through the PvP/PvE slider, unless you're in a high risk area that the slider doesn't really effect, at that point it's on you for being there by yourself. 

[...]

Unfortunately they scrapped the idea of a PvP slider years ago.

The idea is now based on policed and not policed areas of space.

Obviously, the design won't give immunity, but all it needs is apply consequences that discourage it, like those MMOs where you can PvP in a city and get literally 1-shot by NPC guards.

Go to high-risk areas of space that aren't policed and it's on you, not on the game to babysit you.

Balmong

Turrican187 said:

Balmong said:
The camping part can be mitigated through the PvP/PvE slider, unless you're in a high risk area that the slider doesn't really effect, at that point it's on you for being there by yourself. 

[...]

Unfortunately they scrapped the idea of a PvP slider years ago.

Aw, I missed that one, haven't been as on the ball with the updates in awhile. Them just having the idea for the slider shows they know griefing could be a big problem atleast, so i'm interested to see what other ideas their working on now.

MaxBacon

Balmong said:

Aw, I missed that one, haven't been as on the ball with the updates in awhile. Them just having the idea for the slider shows they know griefing could be a big problem atleast, so i'm interested to see what other ideas their working on now.

What I just said, and it's mostly to secure especially those new player areas, the concept of legal and illegal PvP will be strong and obvious won't go easy for piracy to ever try that on such areas.

The slider idea falls because the game network design changed, before we were talking one heavily instanced network model so they could open PvP and non-PvP instances of the same place, but now they are going for a "single-shard" design where while instanced, it still is a single game world and not multiple copies of areas of it running separately.

For me the best idea to bring PvE slider design back is actually create an isolated gameworld "shard server" that has a PvE rule-set. Though it would likely be a controversial move in the view of PvPers.