How development of CoE could succeed

cjmarsh

With the heavy disparaging of this game's chances of publication (including by myself) let me instead illustrate a roadmap of future development that may lead to its success. The first and largest issue that faces SBS (the developers of CoE) is the back end framework they must now engineer from scratch. Assuming that all ties are permanently severed to SpatialOS (and they should be if they told the community they would be) then a viable alternative needs to be made. This should be the number one priority of development to the point of hiring more people, or at least contractors, even while on a limited budget. If SBS can show that they have an effective back end solution with tech durable enough to withstand the volume of their full projected player-base, they have a real shot at luring investors much like CU and Crowfall did.

But having the back end is not enough. A client needs to exist and the nice, if impractical, idea of using a voxel-based interim is only slowing down development. SBS needs to bite the bullet and get rid of this concept so they can put more focus on the Unreal Engine client and how it integrates tightly with the back end. Furthermore, the most important thing about the client is not the gameplay mechanics or the graphical assets, it is the culling mechanism to deal with instances of population density. Inevitably there will be large groupings of players and Unreal Engine is not equipped to handle hundreds, or worse thousands, all at once. If PhysX is enabled for players the computation will quickly bog down any connected client in addition to the massive load on the renderer from the graphical assets in play. Creating some way for a player's client to smoothly join overcrowded areas is absolutely critical in a game designed to have a single massive world.

If SBS can come up with a robust answer to these two questions then I think they have a real shot at securing investor funding to finish development. After which, the many mechanics and features can be worked on by the subsequently larger team, and the amazing vision of the game's design can be realized. Given sufficient investment and enabled to cross the finish line the right way, I think SBS is capable of putting out a game even the most jaded MMORPG fan could appreciate.

Slapshot1188

I do not see any chance that they will discontinue their ElyriaMud/VoxElyria development.  

mystichaze

VoxElyria and Unreal are already tied together as demonstrated in this video Tripnul made. When working in Vox, they are at the same time working with the unreal engine.  Killing two birds with one stone so to speak. It is just a way to get players in the game early to test it for bugs before all the work on the graphics is complete.

https://chroniclesofelyria.com/blog/22013/The-Countdown-to-VoxElyria-Begins

It is also my understanding that they already have a lot of the backend stuff done. Even though we just found out about them not using SpatialOS, this was not a spur of the moment decision. It is something that they began looking for and working with other solutions early last year.

cjmarsh

I suppose since they promised the backers they have no choice but to try to deliver on VoxElyria. But I'd caution you on being overly optimistic @mystichaze because VoxElyria and Unreal are not linked at all, they are both clients that connect to the back end. That gif looks like a display of the state of SpatialOS entities in both clients, controlled by Unreal. To give you some idea of the complexity, most unreal developers could probably do that in a matter of hours (minus the artwork).

When you say they have a lot of back end stuff done, what makes you say they were working on other solutions early last year? I used to be the same level of backer you are and I don't recall that.

Slapshot1188

Caspien has said they were working on replacing SpatialOS since early last year... but he is also the person who said in Oct that SpatialOS was doing everything they needed...
So which Caspien do you believe?

cjmarsh

Slapshot1188 said:

Caspien has said they were working on replacing SpatialOS since early last year... but he is also the person who said in Oct that SpatialOS was doing everything they needed...
So which Caspien do you believe?

Frankly if I was being lied to about the back end they were using after all the talk of transparency I'd be pretty upset. But funnily enough they would have a better chance of getting to a complete game if they had been lying and had a solution almost ready to go.

Slapshot1188

I put the link in the State of Elyria thread.  Listen to what he says yourself.  It does not sound to me like someone that was preparing to ditch SpatialOS.  He literally  says No doubt it can do what they want it to do...  in Oct...

a

cjmarsh

Slapshot1188 said:

I put the link in the State of Elyria thread.  Listen to what he says yourself.  It does not sound to me like someone that was preparing to ditch SpatialOS.  He literally  says No doubt it can do what they want it to do...  in Oct...

a

If I had to guess (and that's all it can be with my limited info) I'd say they ran into problems with hosting the AI processes on SpatialOS in terms of cost. With the ambitious, realistic model that creatures and monsters are designed to have, essentially their positions in the game world would have to be determined by AI algorithms which would likely be expensive computationally. I'm a little bit upset with his faith in SpatialOS too, however, they might have believed it would work or they might have thought they had no choice but to be devoted to it until they were ready to quit it completely.

ConstantineMerus

Slapshot1188 said:

I put the link in the State of Elyria thread.  Listen to what he says yourself.  It does not sound to me like someone that was preparing to ditch SpatialOS.  He literally  says No doubt it can do what they want it to do...  in Oct...

a

Maybe it was one of those breakup speeches you know!

Slapshot1188

cjmarsh said:

Slapshot1188 said:

I put the link in the State of Elyria thread.  Listen to what he says yourself.  It does not sound to me like someone that was preparing to ditch SpatialOS.  He literally  says No doubt it can do what they want it to do...  in Oct...

a

If I had to guess (and that's all it can be with my limited info) I'd say they ran into problems with hosting the AI processes on SpatialOS in terms of cost. With the ambitious, realistic model that creatures and monsters are designed to have, essentially their positions in the game world would have to be determined by AI algorithms which would likely be expensive computationally. I'm a little bit upset with his faith in SpatialOS too, however, they might have believed it would work or they might have thought they had no choice but to be devoted to it until they were ready to quit it completely.

Right but in Oct he says he has no doubt it can do what he wants but in 6 weeks he announces they replaced it already?  Seems highly incongruous to me.

cjmarsh

Slapshot1188 said:

cjmarsh said:

Slapshot1188 said:

I put the link in the State of Elyria thread.  Listen to what he says yourself.  It does not sound to me like someone that was preparing to ditch SpatialOS.  He literally  says No doubt it can do what they want it to do...  in Oct...

a

If I had to guess (and that's all it can be with my limited info) I'd say they ran into problems with hosting the AI processes on SpatialOS in terms of cost. With the ambitious, realistic model that creatures and monsters are designed to have, essentially their positions in the game world would have to be determined by AI algorithms which would likely be expensive computationally. I'm a little bit upset with his faith in SpatialOS too, however, they might have believed it would work or they might have thought they had no choice but to be devoted to it until they were ready to quit it completely.

Right but in Oct he says he has no doubt it can do what he wants but in 6 weeks he announces they replaced it already?  Seems highly incongruous to me.

Yeah I'm not thrilled about that at all. It's one of many reasons I won't be returning to their community unless I'm sure they've committed to a better direction and focus.

jahlon

Slapshot1188 said:

Caspien has said they were working on replacing SpatialOS since early last year... but he is also the person who said in Oct that SpatialOS was doing everything they needed...
So which Caspien do you believe?

I believe the Caspian that is quoted as saying " We never imaged people would be surprised by the news the game would require more money to finish"

(http://massivelyop.com/2016/09/28/interview-chronicles-of-elyrias-jeromy-walsh-on-post-kickstarter-funding/)

Because every single time I see this, and the rest of that article all I hear in my head is

"Shit, they caught us in our lies.  Now what do we do?"

AshyLarry24

jahlon said:

Slapshot1188 said:

Caspien has said they were working on replacing SpatialOS since early last year... but he is also the person who said in Oct that SpatialOS was doing everything they needed...
So which Caspien do you believe?

I believe the Caspian that is quoted as saying " We never imaged people would be surprised by the news the game would require more money to finish"

(http://massivelyop.com/2016/09/28/interview-chronicles-of-elyrias-jeromy-walsh-on-post-kickstarter-funding/)

Because every single time I see this, and the rest of that article all I hear in my head is

"Shit, they caught us in our lies.  Now what do we do?"

I mean I definitely never thought that $2 million was going to be enough to finish this game.  I figured they were counting on a constant flow of money after that and of course eventually having to go to a publisher and what not.

Maybe I was in the minority, but to expect a game at this scope to be able to be made with $2 million is a bit silly right?

Theocritus

THere's so many fo these Indie MMOs down the road I really cant keep track...When any of them actually release and are f2p I'll take a look...until then too much time and energy keeping up with all of them.

AshyLarry24

Theocritus said:

THere's so many fo these Indie MMOs down the road I really cant keep track...When any of them actually release and are f2p I'll take a look...until then too much time and energy keeping up with all of them.

Well if you are gonna wait till they become f2p hopefully you never play CoE lol.

Kabulozo

These kickstarter MMOs want to be so bold that they are eating more money than some AAA games and taking an eternity to release.

cjmarsh

Kabulozo said:

These kickstarter MMOs want to be so bold that they are eating more money than some AAA games and taking an eternity to release.

That's true of exactly one game: Star Citizen. But I'm not sure how it's relevant to CoE?