What exactly is considered griefing or trolling in this game?

Kyleran

What the devs consider to be trolling or griefing might really be interaction and normal gameplay.

Consider this excerpt from their TOS:

"You must not abuse, harass, threaten, impersonate, or intimidate other users of our Services or any employee, agent, or affiliate of Soulbound Studios..."

Exactly where must we not do this? If my guild is at war with another (like in EVE) it is not unusual for us to "camp" their home, killing as often as possible.   We may also stalk them at trade hubs and we definitely will abuse,  threaten and intimidate in game and in forums, especially if someone is sh$t talking us 

Why not impersonate others, especially if trying to spy on or assassinate someone?

No, we're not going to try and dox you,  or toilet paper your home but in games and in forums,  yes 

Oh yeah expect us to demand ransoms which we may or may not honor.  Same for mercenary contracts, we might fight for you,  or switch sides to the highest bidder.

We might even accept a contract to purposely harrang others,  with no other purpose but to spoil their fun.

This is what open virtual worlds are all about,  player "interaction " of the highest order and yes, expect extreme asshattery at times,  because many will not be there to "play nice", its just not what we do.

Love,

Kyleran's Horde

No quarter expected, none given.

Marquess of Queensberry rules do not apply.

Musket-Squid

One of those just cause you think you have freedom doesn't mean you really have it type games/counties errr....

MadFrenchie

Without limiting PvP to a specific area and removing the ability for opposing players to speak with one another (such as WoW or DAoC), harassment and griefing will always be something a portion of the player base will pursue endlessly.

TheScavenger

This is why open world sandbox MMO pvp deathmatch clones are doomed to fail

The community

The worst community you can ever find in an MMO. It drives away the vast majority of the players, and the community kills their own community/game. Marketing or/and making games for people like that, is a self defeat by both the developers and the players.

pantaro

TheScavenger said:

This is why open world sandbox MMO pvp deathmatch clones are doomed to fail

The community

The worst community you can ever find in an MMO. It drives away the vast majority of the players, and the community kills their own community/game. Marketing or/and making games for people like that, is a self defeat by both the developers and the players.

idk i used to think that until i woke up to the reality that is the theme-park antisocial instance junkies who make you feel like the community doesn't even exist and the players are just imaginary lol

Slapshot1188

MisterZebub said:

Kyleran said:

What the devs consider to be trolling or griefing might really be interaction and normal gameplay.

Consider this excerpt from their TOS:

"You must not abuse, harass, threaten, impersonate, or intimidate other users of our Services or any employee, agent, or affiliate of Soulbound Studios..."

Exactly where must we not do this? If my guild is at war with another (like in EVE) it is not unusual for us to "camp" their home, killing as often as possible.   We may also stalk them at trade hubs and we definitely will abuse,  threaten and intimidate in game and in forums, especially if someone is sh$t talking us 

Why not impersonate others, especially if trying to spy on or assassinate someone?

No, we're not going to try and dox you,  or toilet paper your home but in games and in forums,  yes 

Oh yeah expect us to demand ransoms which we may or may not honor.  Same for mercenary contracts, we might fight for you,  or switch sides to the highest bidder.

We might even accept a contract to purposely harrang others,  with no other purpose but to spoil their fun.

This is what open virtual worlds are all about,  player "interaction " of the highest order and yes, expect extreme asshattery at times,  because many will not be there to "play nice", its just not what we do.

Love,

Kyleran's Horde

No quarter expected, none given.

Marquess of Queensberry rules do not apply.

Honestly it sounds like they are pushing for a serious carebear agenda for the game community. I.E. "Feel free to fight wars against one an other, but please, do it POLITELY"

However just like UO, EVE, Shadowbane, Darkfall, Archeage etc. I think they are going to learn a hard lesson that many people who enjoy hard core PVP will happily, willfully, and ingeniously find ways to break the rules, harass and demoralize their enemies, innocent bystanders, and sometimes even their very friends.

Add to the mix that players can plonk down huge amounts of donation money to gain very real advantages, influence, and footholds in the game, truly becoming as powerful, double dealing, and murderous as a Borgia pope, and its going to be EVE mega-corps wars all over again.

There are already groups advertising that they will be mercenaries for real life cash and go crap on someone's enemies for them.  I saw a conversation about thousands of dollars.

Slapshot1188

Kyleran said:

What the devs consider to be trolling or griefing might really be interaction and normal gameplay.

Consider this excerpt from their TOS:

"You must not abuse, harass, threaten, impersonate, or intimidate other users of our Services or any employee, agent, or affiliate of Soulbound Studios..."

Exactly where must we not do this? If my guild is at war with another (like in EVE) it is not unusual for us to "camp" their home, killing as often as possible.   We may also stalk them at trade hubs and we definitely will abuse,  threaten and intimidate in game and in forums, especially if someone is sh$t talking us 

Why not impersonate others, especially if trying to spy on or assassinate someone?

No, we're not going to try and dox you,  or toilet paper your home but in games and in forums,  yes 

Oh yeah expect us to demand ransoms which we may or may not honor.  Same for mercenary contracts, we might fight for you,  or switch sides to the highest bidder.

We might even accept a contract to purposely harrang others,  with no other purpose but to spoil their fun.

This is what open virtual worlds are all about,  player "interaction " of the highest order and yes, expect extreme asshattery at times,  because many will not be there to "play nice", its just not what we do.

Love,

Kyleran's Horde

No quarter expected, none given.

Marquess of Queensberry rules do not apply.

This is why I bring up the "land grab" in the other thread.   Is it harassment if I intentionally plop down in the middle of the area "you and your friends" claimed?   Is it harassment if we decide we are just going to kill you over and over again and loot your farmhouse every day?

(Note that's theoretical.. in actual PvP I am fairly inept and have never been the wolf... I simply am using my Harbinger powers to peer into the future)

TEKK3N

Kyleran said:

What the devs consider to be trolling or griefing might really be interaction and normal gameplay.

Consider this excerpt from their TOS:

"You must not abuse, harass, threaten, impersonate, or intimidate other users of our Services or any employee, agent, or affiliate of Soulbound Studios..."

Exactly where must we not do this? If my guild is at war with another (like in EVE) it is not unusual for us to "camp" their home, killing as often as possible.   We may also stalk them at trade hubs and we definitely will abuse,  threaten and intimidate in game and in forums, especially if someone is sh$t talking us 

I think there is a difference between harassing a character and harassing a person.
Those rules are made to protect the person, not the character.

Raistlin3786

This is in every ToS.  This isn't some "carebear" tactic.  I'm really not even understanding what you all are talking about.  Those things listed in the ToS are illegal..  

Is harassment a felony?

Harassment charges can range from misdemeanor to high level felony charges. In many states, people charged with harassment will receive a higher level charge if they have previously been convicted of harassment, of communicating a threat, or of a domestic violence offense.

Is impersonation illegal?

Penal Law § 190.25 [McK-inney 1996]). In other words, it is illegal to impersonate a real person, but not a fictitious one. Thus, if Carol forges Ann's name on checks made out to Ann so that Carol can cash the checks, Carol could be guilty of falseimpersonation—but only if Ann is a real person.

They have to include this for liability.  If one of their members harasses another member outside of the game, this limits their legal liability.

Cazriel

Kyleran said:

This is what open virtual worlds are all about,  player "interaction " of the highest order and yes, expect extreme asshattery at times,  because many will not be there to "play nice", its just not what we do.

I question whether open virtual worlds are all about being the biggest jackass you can be.  I seriously doubt that indulging in extreme asshattery is player interaction "of the highest order" because it can't be both (assholery and of the highest order), which you seem to recognize when you say "It(')s just not what we do." 

Unless you meant to say you are an asshole "of the highest order", in which case one can only say you know yourself best. 

At the same time, there's no doubt that many of the upcoming games are best classified as gankboxes, meant to attract players who enjoy griefing others.  It's a good reminder to other players to stay away unless they wish to become part of the "target rich" environment.   

jahlon

What exactly is considered griefing or trolling in this game?

The expectation the game will ever come out is trolling level over 9000. 

Ungood

Well.. all I have to add to this is..

Some trolls are gonna find out what happens when an Indie developer makes a brainchild creation and also takes themselves way to seriously.

btdt

Kyleran said:

What the devs consider to be trolling or griefing might really be interaction and normal gameplay.

Consider this excerpt from their TOS:

"You must not abuse, harass, threaten, impersonate, or intimidate other users of our Services or any employee, agent, or affiliate of Soulbound Studios..."

Consider this to be in regards to actual one-on-one communication.  As in, you cannot, abuse, harass, threaten, impersonate, or intimidate other players or employees via private chats, email messages, VOIP, forums, or global channels.  Pretty standard clause.

You are however, free to dance naked on their corpse, emote chicken sounds, park your 10-ton mammoth on top of quest givers/objectives, or kill any and all NPCs that you see fit.   So long as it is something that your character has been coded by them to be able to do, it isn't against the TOS.  

If they don't want you to kill NPCs, they can code it so that you cannot harm them.  If they allow you to kill them, then it's within the TOS.

If they have an emote that says "Eat shit and die!", it's a built in game mechanic and you are completely free to spam it all day long.  You are not, however, allowed to type that statement in a chat window.

Wizardry

It is not a game yet,so everything bantered around is just chit chat.

Also if they are going to  accept money in this fashion for naming,they should be able to sit down and look over the names before allowing them into the field.
They need and should have a quality control employee,someone to look over the game community ,along with a community manager.
However,this is what you get with Indie developers,small teams,barely enough employees to complete a game in timely fashion.Then the biggest issue of all,figuring out to continue working on a game with no idea about finances,can we hire 2 people,will we have to have nothing but part time employees,sourcing out etc etc.
Long winded point,KSr's,crowd funding is NOT the proper way to make a game.

Look simply at Star Citizen,most money ever from a crowd funded game,aside form the rabid fanbois,does anyone think the game looks like a 300 million dollar game,does anyone even think the game looks decent after this amount of time and size of team,including out sourcing?

So if a large team,tons of money can't but produce amateur work in TOO long a period,what do you expect from everyone else?You know what crowd funding is good for,ARPG's and moba's all those crappy puny games that have very little effort or content put into them.

Kyleran

Cazriel said:

Kyleran said:

This is what open virtual worlds are all about,  player "interaction " of the highest order and yes, expect extreme asshattery at times,  because many will not be there to "play nice", its just not what we do.

I question whether open virtual worlds are all about being the biggest jackass you can be.  I seriously doubt that indulging in extreme asshattery is player interaction "of the highest order" because it can't be both (assholery and of the highest order), which you seem to recognize when you say "It(')s just not what we do." 

Unless you meant to say you are an asshole "of the highest order", in which case one can only say you know yourself best. 

At the same time, there's no doubt that many of the upcoming games are best classified as gankboxes, meant to attract players who enjoy griefing others.  It's a good reminder to other players to stay away unless they wish to become part of the "target rich" environment.   

Well, like Slap said, I'm really just "speaking for the trees" as my PVP skills are negligible, I dislike ganking defenseless targets, and am pretty carebear in general....but I do enjoy a good challenge and an opportunity to fight "evil."

Kyleran

btdt said:

Kyleran said:

What the devs consider to be trolling or griefing might really be interaction and normal gameplay.

Consider this excerpt from their TOS:

"You must not abuse, harass, threaten, impersonate, or intimidate other users of our Services or any employee, agent, or affiliate of Soulbound Studios..."

Consider this to be in regards to actual one-on-one communication.  As in, you cannot, abuse, harass, threaten, impersonate, or intimidate other players or employees via private chats, email messages, VOIP, forums, or global channels.  Pretty standard clause.

You are however, free to dance naked on their corpse, emote chicken sounds, park your 10-ton mammoth on top of quest givers/objectives, or kill any and all NPCs that you see fit.   So long as it is something that your character has been coded by them to be able to do, it isn't against the TOS.  

If they don't want you to kill NPCs, they can code it so that you cannot harm them.  If they allow you to kill them, then it's within the TOS.

If they have an emote that says "Eat shit and die!", it's a built in game mechanic and you are completely free to spam it all day long.  You are not, however, allowed to type that statement in a chat window.

As long as that statement refers to out of game conduct, fine.  But IMO their recent action against a backer who took an in game name hints otherwise and unfortunately the TOS isn't specific in this regard.

Kyleran

Raistlin3786 said:

This is in every ToS.  This isn't some "carebear" tactic.  I'm really not even understanding what you all are talking about.  Those things listed in the ToS are illegal..  

Is harassment a felony?

Harassment charges can range from misdemeanor to high level felony charges. In many states, people charged with harassment will receive a higher level charge if they have previously been convicted of harassment, of communicating a threat, or of a domestic violence offense.

Is impersonation illegal?

Penal Law § 190.25 [McK-inney 1996]). In other words, it is illegal to impersonate a real person, but not a fictitious one. Thus, if Carol forges Ann's name on checks made out to Ann so that Carol can cash the checks, Carol could be guilty of falseimpersonation—but only if Ann is a real person.

They have to include this for liability.  If one of their members harasses another member outside of the game, this limits their legal liability.

In the real world both of those are true, in game worlds,  not so much. (Look at any community in a MOBA for example)

Kyleran

TheScavenger said:

This is why open world sandbox MMO pvp deathmatch clones are doomed to fail

The community

The worst community you can ever find in an MMO. It drives away the vast majority of the players, and the community kills their own community/game. Marketing or/and making games for people like that, is a self defeat by both the developers and the players.

I feel EVE has one of the best communities out there, but few would agree I'm sure. 

Kyleran

Nyctelios said:

This one will be way harder to supervise than eve. One good place to get as reference is Salem, since it is a sandbox open world with steal, kill, grief, everything allowed (which most of these games, like Amazon's next survival MMORPG, are based upon). 

What I would expect to be harassment is exploitation upon game limitations and mechanics like, body blocking someone to force it do disconnect or the person won't be able to leave.

If the games mechanics permit body or cart blocking,  then choking off key points is a legitimate tactic in my book.

Actually, so is crashing a node to stop an enemy from attacking your town, its up to the devs to make sure players can't do it merely by overloading the zone.

Kyleran

t0nyd said:

I love hearing how people define grief. I remember people complaining when, on a PVP server mind you, a rogue or druid of similar level as a group of players, ganked them, killed one of them, and ran off. I wouldn't call that griefing. I would call that the point of a PVP server...

Its true, some folks have thin skins, but using a common scenario, a bunch of high levels camp a certain place lower level players frequent and repetitively kill them over and over.

Whether just for lulz, or to stimulate a reaction from other higher players which is a reason often given for such tactics, will the devs consider this griefing and try to ban people for it. 

OrangeBoy

I think trolling is attributed to anything and everything. Extremely overused word for anything that gives discomfort, displeasure, disdain, and etc.

If you want to know CoE's definition of trolling, it would probably be anything deviating from being a carebear. 

Ironically, the same people who love being care-bears justify layoffs of devs as them being late to work once or twice.

Absolute cancer.

Allerleirauh

Kyleran said:

What the devs consider to be trolling or griefing might really be interaction and normal gameplay.

Consider this excerpt from their TOS:

"You must not abuse, harass, threaten, impersonate, or intimidate other users of our Services or any employee, agent, or affiliate of Soulbound Studios..."

Exactly where must we not do this?

The thing is, you mentioned EVE, but some gamers avoid similar games like EVE for a reason. I also see the term "carebear" mentioned; I already know that person loves drama and possibly loves forum PvP. You can almost guarantee they are a toxic gamer. These players are not true PvPers, but gankers.

I don't know what CoE is on about, but nobody explained why Soulbound was mortified by the names chosen in the surname reservation. I feel that some of this drama is being used to add hype to this game, and members of this site are playing right into it.

OrangeBoy

Allerleirauh said:

Kyleran said:

What the devs consider to be trolling or griefing might really be interaction and normal gameplay.

Consider this excerpt from their TOS:

"You must not abuse, harass, threaten, impersonate, or intimidate other users of our Services or any employee, agent, or affiliate of Soulbound Studios..."

Exactly where must we not do this?

The thing is, you mentioned EVE, but some gamers avoid similar games like EVE for a reason. I also see the term "carebear" mentioned; I already know that person loves drama and possibly loves forum PvP. You can almost guarantee they are a toxic gamer. These players are not true PvPers, but gankers.

I don't know what CoE is on about, but nobody explained why Soulbound was mortified by the names chosen in the surname reservation. I feel that some of this drama is being used to add hype to this game, and members of this site are playing right into it.

If you think about it, it has to be intentional.

I remember earlier this year there was a thread on someone threatening death (constant ING griefing) on some player because he didn't adhere to his kingdom's whim. It got serious enough to get replies from two devs. This showed there was definitely malice and ill-intent from some if not a good portion of high-backers.

Knowing this, I have to assume this was intentional -- for drama and hype purposes.

AshyLarry24

Orange Boy is the last person that should be commenting on what is trolling, and griefing, as he's someone who has been banned multiple times through multiple mediums, and is a known troll throughout a lot of the CoE community.  It's the equivalent of listening to CHarles Manson's opinion on mental health.

Slapshot1188

I kind of like his blunt honesty.  

Amathe

Any and all references to the smell of elderberries would be a red line, imo.