I really don't get this issue with "advantage". Only a small percentage of players can ever be nobles. The vast majority would never experience it regardless of whether it is sold or not.
It's not advantage if you can't get it without real-money purchase?
That's one of the most stupid fanboy arguments I've ever heard.
No, I said if there is an advantage then it will only affect a minority of players because even if you cannot buy a title most players will never have one regardless.
Maybe you should read posts properly before shooting your mouth off.
And yet, the rarity of owning a title is one of the very things that plays psychologically into a consumer's decision to purchase them.
And yet, still the minority of players.
The scarcity of nobility makes it even more P2W, not less.
Only if the purpose of the game is to become nobility, which it isn't.
This is a point I would love to discuss.
The goal of the game is not to become a Nobel, it is to do whatever you want. If that means you want to be a blacksmith, or an adventure, or a cook, then trying to put a crown on your head is not where you want to be.
This makes me think about Guilds in other games.
Often players need to buy a guild to be a guild leader, then they have officers, and the like. Now, to say everyone that joins a guild, joins with the intention to be a guild leader would be foolish, in fact, I would wager that most don't even want to be officers. They like the social aspect, but would rather play the game, have fun doing what they are doing, then dealing with drama and social issues that the Leader and Officers need to deal with.
Now some people join guilds to try and take over, often because they would rather ruin someone else work then put in the work themselves to make their own guild.
The same could be said for a game like CoE, I wager a large portion of the game, really has no vested goal to be a King, just like they had no need to be leaders in the guilds they joined, they are there to play a game, not play drama-unlimited. Sure some will have delusion that they want to be a Nobel, but I would wager a large portion of them would not want to deal with drama and social problems that will come with it, ergo, like the whole issue of having someone else kick you out of the position.
So, buying that "Nobility" package, is like buying a Guild Hall, and discovering that you get guild makes thrust upon you... let me know how that is winning.
Like I said in response to Staalburgher, whatever you dream up as the hypothetical point of the game for some theoretical player (instead of being a noble)... it can also be bought in their P2W cash shop.
Case and point -- blacksmith, adventurer, and cook.
Who the fuck would P2W being a Blacksmith?
Who?! Idk someone who likes crafting and wants to take the easy way forward I guess.
That's not the point though. The blacksmith was your own example. And you asked "let me know how that's winning". Being a King may not be winning to that imaginary person, but they have tons of other P2W packages, which helps the blacksmith, adventurer, cook, etc win.
You can't just change the question to "who" when you are challenged. It was never about who or if anyone will buy the P2W packages, because spoiler alert they will / have. It was a question of is the game P2W for the minority of players who don't consider nobility to be winning --- which P2W it is.
No. No.
See, Paying to Win. by the nature of what that says.. There needs to be a Win Involved. Some kind of Victory.
Maybe I am asking too much from the P2W system. Maybe it's gotten a little watered down over the years, or what have you, but when I am dumping money into a P2W system, II expect it to give me a Win.
So.. Imagine for a moment, I am a player that has never even looked into the store, I have not been following this game for years, nor have I gotten all wrapped up in all the drama, I saw the game on my news feed and said "Humm that looks fun"
Given that player, that you just said this game is riddled with P2W, I'll ask again.. "How is being a generic blacksmith Winning"
To give you an example, just so you can understand better, do these packages offer me something like magical blacksmithing unavailable to anyone else?
See, now that could be a Win, to me, if I was going to plan to be a Weaponsmith then being the only player able to craft Legendary Weapons or something along those lines, I could see that as a Win.
Is that what any of these packages offer?
Unique Special Abilities that the F2P peasant plebeians can't get?
Or.. do I just get something generic and lame for all this money, along the lines of "your own forage and a 10% learning boost" which.. normal players don't view as anything remotely close to P2W.
So I am asking.. how can someone Win as a Blacksmith in this game?
Sure people do it for fun, but no one does crafts to win an MMO, they do it because they like it, next you tell me they have a P2W package for AFK fishing.
You obviously have no idea how competitive crafters are, being the first to be able to make something, being the best at making things, having the reputation of being able to make the best weapons and armour etc. Its not a question of who would want to P2W being a blacksmith, its more a question of how many would not.
He likes to pontificate on the meaning of “win”. Much simpler to just call it Pay for Advantage (massive even) and short circuit the whole side track.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
Only if the purpose of the game is to become nobility, which it isn't.
This is a point I would love to discuss.
The goal of the game is not to become a Nobel, it is to do whatever you want. If that means you want to be a blacksmith, or an adventure, or a cook, then trying to put a crown on your head is not where you want to be.
This makes me think about Guilds in other games.
Often players need to buy a guild to be a guild leader, then they have officers, and the like. Now, to say everyone that joins a guild, joins with the intention to be a guild leader would be foolish, in fact, I would wager that most don't even want to be officers. They like the social aspect, but would rather play the game, have fun doing what they are doing, then dealing with drama and social issues that the Leader and Officers need to deal with.
Now some people join guilds to try and take over, often because they would rather ruin someone else work then put in the work themselves to make their own guild.
The same could be said for a game like CoE, I wager a large portion of the game, really has no vested goal to be a King, just like they had no need to be leaders in the guilds they joined, they are there to play a game, not play drama-unlimited. Sure some will have delusion that they want to be a Nobel, but I would wager a large portion of them would not want to deal with drama and social problems that will come with it, ergo, like the whole issue of having someone else kick you out of the position.
So, buying that "Nobility" package, is like buying a Guild Hall, and discovering that you get guild makes thrust upon you... let me know how that is winning.
Like I said in response to Staalburgher, whatever you dream up as the hypothetical point of the game for some theoretical player (instead of being a noble)... it can also be bought in their P2W cash shop.
Case and point -- blacksmith, adventurer, and cook.
Who the fuck would P2W being a Blacksmith?
Who?! Idk someone who likes crafting and wants to take the easy way forward I guess.
That's not the point though. The blacksmith was your own example. And you asked "let me know how that's winning". Being a King may not be winning to that imaginary person, but they have tons of other P2W packages, which helps the blacksmith, adventurer, cook, etc win.
You can't just change the question to "who" when you are challenged. It was never about who or if anyone will buy the P2W packages, because spoiler alert they will / have. It was a question of is the game P2W for the minority of players who don't consider nobility to be winning --- which P2W it is.
No. No.
See, Paying to Win. by the nature of what that says.. There needs to be a Win Involved. Some kind of Victory.
Maybe I am asking too much from the P2W system. Maybe it's gotten a little watered down over the years, or what have you, but when I am dumping money into a P2W system, II expect it to give me a Win.
So.. Imagine for a moment, I am a player that has never even looked into the store, I have not been following this game for years, nor have I gotten all wrapped up in all the drama, I saw the game on my news feed and said "Humm that looks fun"
Given that player, that you just said this game is riddled with P2W, I'll ask again.. "How is being a generic blacksmith Winning"
To give you an example, just so you can understand better, do these packages offer me something like magical blacksmithing unavailable to anyone else?
See, now that could be a Win, to me, if I was going to plan to be a Weaponsmith then being the only player able to craft Legendary Weapons or something along those lines, I could see that as a Win.
Is that what any of these packages offer?
Unique Special Abilities that the F2P peasant plebeians can't get?
Or.. do I just get something generic and lame for all this money, along the lines of "your own forage and a 10% learning boost" which.. normal players don't view as anything remotely close to P2W.
So I am asking.. how can someone Win as a Blacksmith in this game?
Sure people do it for fun, but no one does crafts to win an MMO, they do it because they like it, next you tell me they have a P2W package for AFK fishing.
You obviously have no idea how competitive crafters are, being the first to be able to make something, being the best at making things, having the reputation of being able to make the best weapons and armour etc. Its not a question of who would want to P2W being a blacksmith, its more a question of how many would not.
Well, in real life, the Knitting forum I am on is pretty cutthroat... say the wrong thing and they will stab a bitch with a #9 needle. The Car building forum, on the other hand is pretty supportive and not nearly as ruthless.
But, with that said.. I have NEVER played an MMO where Crafting was something so important, that being the first to make a standard dagger was a noteworthy achievement. Or that it was worth paying money to.. "WIn".. when everyone else can make the same things you can make, even if it takes them a little while longer to get there.
Maybe CoE will be special like that. But in every MMO I have played, all crafting disciplines had a maxed skill point or cap. Same with equipment stats, at some point they capped out.
So being the first to hit cap means about jack-shit when everyone else can and will be able to do the same in short order.
Even in games were crafting was prohibitively expensive, Like Scribe in GW2, in a short order every large enough guild had their own max level Scribe that they funded, with the smaller guilds following suite shortly thereafter.
Now I gotta see how this unfolds..
Hell.. now I wanna buy the AFK Fishing package.. I never Won an MMO before, and it would be great to be able to Buy a Spark of Life, and the Fishing Package, and never log in again, knowing that I won the game.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
Think of it like a race if that helps, the people who are in the lead are winning. And the P2W cash shop is like a 10 mile head start.
So, if the goal is to be a blacksmith, then it's easy to buy all of the things you need in the cash shop -- blacksmith starter package, land, house, animals, workshop, resources, shop in town, and other various items (which you can resell in game to get gold, which can then be used to fund your crafting).
Congrats, you're now so far ahead of the all of the other blacksmiths that didn't pay to win, they will never catch you without outside interference.
You obviously have no idea how competitive crafters are, being the first to be able to make something, being the best at making things, having the reputation of being able to make the best weapons and armour etc. Its not a question of who would want to P2W being a blacksmith, its more a question of how many would not.
Well, in real life, the Knitting forum I am on is pretty cutthroat... say the wrong thing and they will stab a bitch with a #9 needle. The Car building forum, on the other hand is pretty supportive and not nearly as ruthless.
But, with that said.. I have NEVER played an MMO where Crafting was something so important, that being the first to make a standard dagger was a noteworthy achievement. Or that it was worth paying money to.. "WIn".. when everyone else can make the same things you can make, even if it takes them a little while longer to get there.
Maybe CoE will be special like that. But in every MMO I have played, all crafting disciplines had a maxed skill point or cap. Same with equipment stats, at some point they capped out.
So being the first to hit cap means about jack-shit when everyone else can and will be able to do the same in short order.
Even in games were crafting was prohibitively expensive, Like Scribe in GW2, in a short order every large enough guild had their own max level Scribe that they funded, with the smaller guilds following suite shortly thereafter.
Now I gotta see how this unfolds..
Hell.. now I wanna buy the AFK Fishing package.. I never Won an MMO before, and it would be great to be able to Buy a Spark of Life, and the Fishing Package, and never log in again, knowing that I won the game.
It does matter, especially in the game's beginning, when these P2W cash shop items are being sold. It's all supply and demand. If you're the only blacksmith that can make the best sword, what do you think a king is going to pay for an exclusive supply?
In Vanguard crafting had its own leveling path, just like adventuring and diplomacy. The players that focused on crafting first and reached max level, were able to charge whatever they wanted to the adventurer players, because no one else could craft the best stuff at the time. It took just as many hours to max out a crafting profession as it took to level up to 50 in adventuring. Needless to say, the early crafters became very wealthy.
When the rest of the players leveled crafting after having done adventuring first, there was too much competition and crafting prices were basically at cost.
Winning in the crafting / economic portion of a game is hugely important to those who enjoy it.
I recall a crafting "pro" in my guild in Vanguard explaining his entire strategy to get ahead, provide the best goods first when players will pay the most for them and there is little competition.
He knew every trick to maximize his crafting quickly, and it's pretty much all he did.
There are players in EVE who do the same with industry, station trading or even Jita scamming.
All masters at their craft, and very much driven "to win."
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
You obviously have no idea how competitive crafters are, being the first to be able to make something, being the best at making things, having the reputation of being able to make the best weapons and armour etc. Its not a question of who would want to P2W being a blacksmith, its more a question of how many would not.
Well, in real life, the Knitting forum I am on is pretty cutthroat... say the wrong thing and they will stab a bitch with a #9 needle. The Car building forum, on the other hand is pretty supportive and not nearly as ruthless.
But, with that said.. I have NEVER played an MMO where Crafting was something so important, that being the first to make a standard dagger was a noteworthy achievement. Or that it was worth paying money to.. "WIn".. when everyone else can make the same things you can make, even if it takes them a little while longer to get there.
Maybe CoE will be special like that. But in every MMO I have played, all crafting disciplines had a maxed skill point or cap. Same with equipment stats, at some point they capped out.
So being the first to hit cap means about jack-shit when everyone else can and will be able to do the same in short order.
Even in games were crafting was prohibitively expensive, Like Scribe in GW2, in a short order every large enough guild had their own max level Scribe that they funded, with the smaller guilds following suite shortly thereafter.
Now I gotta see how this unfolds..
Hell.. now I wanna buy the AFK Fishing package.. I never Won an MMO before, and it would be great to be able to Buy a Spark of Life, and the Fishing Package, and never log in again, knowing that I won the game.
It does matter, especially in the game's beginning, when these P2W cash shop items are being sold. It's all supply and demand. If you're the only blacksmith that can make the best sword, what do you think a king is going to pay for an exclusive supply?
In Vanguard crafting had its own leveling path, just like adventuring and diplomacy. The players that focused on crafting first and reached max level, were able to charge whatever they wanted to the adventurer players, because no one else could craft the best stuff at the time. It took just as many hours to max out a crafting profession as it took to level up to 50 in adventuring. Needless to say, the early crafters became very wealthy.
When the rest of the players leveled crafting after having done adventuring first, there was too much competition and crafting prices were basically at cost.
See that last part.
I put it in bold for you.
This has been.. Every MMO I ever played. Just because someone was there first, did mean anything, as always in short order there would be enough people at cap that being there first did not assure you anything.
It was at best like a Exp boost and making it to max level first. Meaningless really.
Let me play with Your King Example.
Much like real life, The King (or any Nobel for that matter) will not be hiring the best blacksmith for anything other then to make their personal sword.. the bulk of their military weapons will be made by the lowest bidder who can make a serviceable weapon, which will be all the mid grade smiths looking for money and experience, but willing to take a cut to their profits for the sake of having the experience and holding a reliable contract.
I Imagine that CoE will be around the same idea, where the best players will want to go to the best smith, but, then you have a huge amount of in-progress players, or people who don't feel the need to dump the extra money for what amounts to very little gain.
This is also not to mention that in CoE they will not have a server wide auction house, like other games. So a local smith will still have a market share among there area, even if they are behind the best smith in the game.
Which makes "winning" in this regard, even harder. Now, again, the Most Prestigious/Best/Winning, smith might get some high profile clients, like a Nobel commissioning a iconic sword, maybe a gift to their mate or offspring, much like real life, The Local Smith will still service their area.
To use a real life example. OOC, makes choppers, and they make some amazing choppers at that, they are no doubt one of the best in the industry, this does not stop my local bike shop, who is.. to be honest, mediocre, from doing business. Equally so, not everyone who wants a bike will pay for a OOC chopper, and all too often will be more then happy with the bike they have.
So, I'm going to be blunt, when I say, I don't see the winning here. I mean, OOC was famous, and did a great job for themselves, and someone could call that 'winning', but, they have a lot of competition, and even then there is a whole lot argument of who is really the best bike builder, as for all their fame, OOC has not won many biker build offs.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
You obviously have no idea how competitive crafters are, being the first to be able to make something, being the best at making things, having the reputation of being able to make the best weapons and armour etc. Its not a question of who would want to P2W being a blacksmith, its more a question of how many would not.
Well, in real life, the Knitting forum I am on is pretty cutthroat... say the wrong thing and they will stab a bitch with a #9 needle. The Car building forum, on the other hand is pretty supportive and not nearly as ruthless.
But, with that said.. I have NEVER played an MMO where Crafting was something so important, that being the first to make a standard dagger was a noteworthy achievement. Or that it was worth paying money to.. "WIn".. when everyone else can make the same things you can make, even if it takes them a little while longer to get there.
Maybe CoE will be special like that. But in every MMO I have played, all crafting disciplines had a maxed skill point or cap. Same with equipment stats, at some point they capped out.
So being the first to hit cap means about jack-shit when everyone else can and will be able to do the same in short order.
Even in games were crafting was prohibitively expensive, Like Scribe in GW2, in a short order every large enough guild had their own max level Scribe that they funded, with the smaller guilds following suite shortly thereafter.
Now I gotta see how this unfolds..
Hell.. now I wanna buy the AFK Fishing package.. I never Won an MMO before, and it would be great to be able to Buy a Spark of Life, and the Fishing Package, and never log in again, knowing that I won the game.
It does matter, especially in the game's beginning, when these P2W cash shop items are being sold. It's all supply and demand. If you're the only blacksmith that can make the best sword, what do you think a king is going to pay for an exclusive supply?
In Vanguard crafting had its own leveling path, just like adventuring and diplomacy. The players that focused on crafting first and reached max level, were able to charge whatever they wanted to the adventurer players, because no one else could craft the best stuff at the time. It took just as many hours to max out a crafting profession as it took to level up to 50 in adventuring. Needless to say, the early crafters became very wealthy.
When the rest of the players leveled crafting after having done adventuring first, there was too much competition and crafting prices were basically at cost.
This ^, perhaps Ungood hasn't played that many mmos. Also the discovery mention on vgplayers for vanguard and so on. First to make banded on new tlps or new servers in eq1 ( back in the days ) made tons of money for a nice headstart.
Like hell.. The only crafting discipline that was profitable in EQ1 was jewelry, as the best armor and weapons, even while leveling up, was Looted, not made.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
If I'm not mistaken P2W anymore is any item that isn't just cosmetic, that's really what it's devolved into
It used to mean that no matter what you did in game you could never over-come another player that purchased something, hence pay to win
Now though, anything purchased outside of giving you a different "skin" or other type of cosmetic is considered P2W. Whether or not you agree with that sentiment doesn't really matter
So is CoE P2W? - Yea, I mean, it's pretty obvious with all the items sold and titles purchased that there are advantages given from the start.
Can they be overcome? - Also yes
Could the chainmail bikini that is purely cosmetic be considered P2W because all the waitresses in your tavern are wearing one to attract customers? - 乁( ◔ ౪◔)ㄏ
Yah, the term P2W means pretty much jack shit these days.
What it really means is "I don't wanna pay, so I am gonna call it P2W"
Hell, Mount Skins in GW2 were called P2W.. so.. Whatever on that..
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
Yah, the term P2W means pretty much jack shit these days.
What it really means is "I don't wanna pay, so I am gonna call it P2W"
Hell, Mount Skins in GW2 were called P2W.. so.. Whatever on that..
And on the flip side, "I don't wanna play, so I'm gonna pay to skip it," which is about the silliest logic I've ever seen, but that's consumerism for you.
Your idea that people don't wanna pay is putting the cart before the horse. People were paying before F2P or microtransactions. Publishers merely found they would pay more with microtransactions.
Yah, the term P2W means pretty much jack shit these days.
What it really means is "I don't wanna pay, so I am gonna call it P2W"
Hell, Mount Skins in GW2 were called P2W.. so.. Whatever on that..
And on the flip side, "I don't wanna play, so I'm gonna pay to skip it," which is about the silliest logic I've ever seen, but that's consumerism for you.
Your idea that people don't wanna pay is putting the cart before the horse. People were paying before F2P or microtransactions. Publishers merely found they would pay more with microtransactions.
Not really.
This is cited, but come on. companies are not going to go about testing ways to make money, if the model they have currently is working, if the sub model was as profitable as people like to believe, it would still be used.
Case in point, WoW and EvE stayed sub based games long, long after the boom of the F2P MMO because their method worked, it did not need to change.
Also when they say "More Money" is really just "Above Zero" which is not to be confused with "More then a Sub would provide|"and I think some people confuse it as such.
But there is no truth to this.
To give you an idea and play with some numbers, GW2, which has around 1.5 million active players. They made roughly 24 Million in Profits in the last Quarter, and that included sales of their Expansion Path of Fire.
Now, if they had a sub of say, 15 a month, that would have made around 67 million., and that is just the flat sub, nothing more, so, when you look at it, in reality they are losing over 40 million in potential income quarterly, being F2P.
Now with the numbers I have in GW2, the Average player is spending roughly only 5 dollars a month, (no wonder the cheapskates were calling a 20 dollar mount skins P2W, they were just too tight assed to want to spend the money)
So.. The whole Micro-transaction/Item Mall/F2P, is not getting players to pay More then a Sub.. they are just paying more then nothing at all.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
No, your argument presupposes that the industry was stagnating or regressing when these things were introduced. It wasn't. MMORPGs may have been losing market share, but that's not even where microtransactions started. The industry, as a whole, was expanding at an exponential rate even before the move to microtransactions.
Simply put, it's a matter of making more for doing less. Microtransactions generally involve small, easy to create assets that can then be multiplied at no cost.
Which is why this thread is not titled P2W so we don’t have to discuss silly semantics. I mean, some of the logical fallacies in some posts above are just stunning but let’s start a new topic to discuss those. This is about buying continued ADVANTAGES, ad-nauseum, for a game not even in Alpha.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
Really the model they are going down has upset me so much, I could get on board when they called it pay-to-build, I mean at that time I saw some truth in it since I (as in myself and no other to my knowledge) intended to pay to build. Hell I even intended to give away what I was building to an extent
But now it's not about building a world its about earning more and more money and who cares if those buying have a massive advantage and can troll others....
Really the model they are going down has upset me so much, I could get on board when they called it pay-to-build, I mean at that time I saw some truth in it since I (as in myself and no other to my knowledge) intended to pay to build. Hell I even intended to give away what I was building to an extent
But now it's not about building a world its about earning more and more money and who cares if those buying have a massive advantage and can troll others....
Agree, I'm just hoping for something soon other than write-ups to keep my interest
Really the model they are going down has upset me so much, I could get on board when they called it pay-to-build, I mean at that time I saw some truth in it since I (as in myself and no other to my knowledge) intended to pay to build. Hell I even intended to give away what I was building to an extent
But now it's not about building a world its about earning more and more money and who cares if those buying have a massive advantage and can troll others....
Agree, I'm just hoping for something soon other than write-ups to keep my interest
The last “sale” ended recently. A new “sale” will be announced shortly. That’s the only schedule they seem to be able to keep. Just look at their published “revamped” roadmap to see how little progress had been made vs it.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
Really the model they are going down has upset me so much, I could get on board when they called it pay-to-build, I mean at that time I saw some truth in it since I (as in myself and no other to my knowledge) intended to pay to build. Hell I even intended to give away what I was building to an extent
But now it's not about building a world its about earning more and more money and who cares if those buying have a massive advantage and can troll others....
Agree, I'm just hoping for something soon other than write-ups to keep my interest
The last “sale” ended recently. A new “sale” will be announced shortly. That’s the only schedule they seem to be able to keep. Just look at their published “revamped” roadmap to see how little progress had been made vs it.
Like other bad "charities" the fundraising team seems to consume a considerable portion of the funds... not much else being shown atm, but perhaps "soon."
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Really the model they are going down has upset me so much, I could get on board when they called it pay-to-build, I mean at that time I saw some truth in it since I (as in myself and no other to my knowledge) intended to pay to build. Hell I even intended to give away what I was building to an extent
But now it's not about building a world its about earning more and more money and who cares if those buying have a massive advantage and can troll others....
Agree, I'm just hoping for something soon other than write-ups to keep my interest
The last “sale” ended recently. A new “sale” will be announced shortly. That’s the only schedule they seem to be able to keep. Just look at their published “revamped” roadmap to see how little progress had been made vs it.
Like other bad "charities" the fundraising team seems to consume a considerable portion of the funds... not much else being shown atm, but perhaps "soon."
I'm entirely convinced that they are using "soon" in a geologic time scale type of thing. I wonder if there is one of those nifty 1950s era Doomsday countdown clock specifically for COE?
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
Which is why this thread is not titled P2W so we don’t have to discuss silly semantics. I mean, some of the logical fallacies in some posts above are just stunning but let’s start a new topic to discuss those. This is about buying continued ADVANTAGES, ad-nauseum, for a game not even in Alpha.
Awww the person that argues for 3 pages straight over the semantics of the term Beta, does not want to Argue Semantics? How Quaint.
But if makes you feel any better, "Advantages" can only got so far, as all too often with any MMO, there is Cap, and eventually enough people will reach it, to make rushing there first pointless.
Much in the same way, on my Evony Server, after a while there were enough large and powerful players, that those that bought all their power found themselves on the losing end, in typical cowardly fashion they fled the onslaught that was coming their way, because they used their bought power to bully other players.
In the end.. for all their P2W (and no one in their right mind would argue if Evony was P2W) brought them nothing but ruin.
I have no doubt that if this game gets made, things will end the same way here, for all the bought power, it will be a flash int he pan, and become meaningless, due to the fact there will be a cap to how powerful anyone can get, and if players can get there freely, it won't matter if someone else got there first, their destruction due to the animosity of the player base they aliened will eventually be their downfall.
As such, in truth, only those that truly bought it for a Pay 2 Build and manage will really survive in the long run, as people will all too often respect their efforts and work. Much like the difference between a Good Guild Leader and an Asshole with a Guild.
Post edited by Ungood on
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
No, your argument presupposes that the industry was stagnating or regressing when these things were introduced. It wasn't. MMORPGs may have been losing market share, but that's not even where microtransactions started. The industry, as a whole, was expanding at an exponential rate even before the move to microtransactions.
Simply put, it's a matter of making more for doing less. Microtransactions generally involve small, easy to create assets that can then be multiplied at no cost.
Ok.. Humor me.. since this might be more your expertise, what reasons would any company take a 60% potential profit loss.
Now,. keep in mind, I don't think GW2 maps smaller then WoW, so, they are not selling less a game for players to play, and both have only grown in the last 6 years, WOW with expansions and GW2, with living story maps (which is content given away for free) and expansions, so, why would GW2, settle with making 1/3 per player what WoW makes?
I'll await your theory.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
But, with that said.. I have NEVER played an MMO where Crafting was something so important, that being the first to make a standard dagger was a noteworthy achievement. Or that it was worth paying money to.. "WIn".. when everyone else can make the same things you can make, even if it takes them a little while longer to get there.
SWG pre NGE
Items used to have perm decay, so crafting was important in that game. Manufactured goods were significantly better than looted junk, and materials and experimentation determines item quality a lot.
Crafters were specialized professional paths and crafters/player run shops became really famous in the game.
No, your argument presupposes that the industry was stagnating or regressing when these things were introduced. It wasn't. MMORPGs may have been losing market share, but that's not even where microtransactions started. The industry, as a whole, was expanding at an exponential rate even before the move to microtransactions.
Simply put, it's a matter of making more for doing less. Microtransactions generally involve small, easy to create assets that can then be multiplied at no cost.
Ok.. Humor me.. since this might be more your expertise, what reasons would any company take a 60% potential profit loss.
Now,. keep in mind, I don't think GW2 maps smaller then WoW, so, they are not selling less a game for players to play, and both have only grown in the last 6 years, WOW with expansions and GW2, with living story maps (which is content given away for free) and expansions, so, why would GW2, settle with making 1/3 per player what WoW makes?
I'll await your theory.
Not even sure what you're trying to say with this, to be honest. Nothing about your statement is relevant to my post. Microtransactions are popular among companies for a couple of reasons:
1) They're relatively quick and easy assets to offer. One model or skin, priced at the level of a traditional game box (or more).
2) They focus on whale spending, which means that any general PR backlash is largely ineffective at curbing the revenue stream. It takes an extraordinarily coordinated effort between general consumers and public consumer figures (i.e. streamers) to actually create enough of a PR backlash to outweigh the spending whales will do in these systems. See the EA situation.
3) In many cases, the spending is geared towards up front purchases made before significant amounts of time have been played. XP/advancement pots are an example, as are paying for other convenience features like earlier mounts, inventory slots, etc.. This decreases the need for presenting a truly quality experience if you can skim the money from the players before they have a chance to even make a full personal assessment of whether or not the game experience itself is worth the purchase.
Not sure what your point is with comparing GW2 and WoW, as it isn't relevant to the point I made. Feel free to check the ESA reports for the years leading up to the rise of microtransactions. Unless I'm grossly miscalling what I've read, the gaming industry was in no trouble at all prior to the rise. The rise is not related to a need to cover costs, it's specifically geared at squeezing more out of gamers for less. While, from a strictly ethically-isolated business perspective, of course it makes sense. But, by that logic, why the hell would any company still produce goods here in America when they can do it cheaper elsewhere? Because many companies feel an ethical imperative to maintain a balance between straight up profit margins and ethical and/or more equitable treatments of their customers.
Comments
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
But, with that said.. I have NEVER played an MMO where Crafting was something so important, that being the first to make a standard dagger was a noteworthy achievement. Or that it was worth paying money to.. "WIn".. when everyone else can make the same things you can make, even if it takes them a little while longer to get there.
Maybe CoE will be special like that. But in every MMO I have played, all crafting disciplines had a maxed skill point or cap. Same with equipment stats, at some point they capped out.
So being the first to hit cap means about jack-shit when everyone else can and will be able to do the same in short order.
Even in games were crafting was prohibitively expensive, Like Scribe in GW2, in a short order every large enough guild had their own max level Scribe that they funded, with the smaller guilds following suite shortly thereafter.
Now I gotta see how this unfolds..
Hell.. now I wanna buy the AFK Fishing package.. I never Won an MMO before, and it would be great to be able to Buy a Spark of Life, and the Fishing Package, and never log in again, knowing that I won the game.
So, if the goal is to be a blacksmith, then it's easy to buy all of the things you need in the cash shop -- blacksmith starter package, land, house, animals, workshop, resources, shop in town, and other various items (which you can resell in game to get gold, which can then be used to fund your crafting).
Congrats, you're now so far ahead of the all of the other blacksmiths that didn't pay to win, they will never catch you without outside interference.
In Vanguard crafting had its own leveling path, just like adventuring and diplomacy. The players that focused on crafting first and reached max level, were able to charge whatever they wanted to the adventurer players, because no one else could craft the best stuff at the time. It took just as many hours to max out a crafting profession as it took to level up to 50 in adventuring. Needless to say, the early crafters became very wealthy.
When the rest of the players leveled crafting after having done adventuring first, there was too much competition and crafting prices were basically at cost.
I recall a crafting "pro" in my guild in Vanguard explaining his entire strategy to get ahead, provide the best goods first when players will pay the most for them and there is little competition.
He knew every trick to maximize his crafting quickly, and it's pretty much all he did.
There are players in EVE who do the same with industry, station trading or even Jita scamming.
All masters at their craft, and very much driven "to win."
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I put it in bold for you.
This has been.. Every MMO I ever played. Just because someone was there first, did mean anything, as always in short order there would be enough people at cap that being there first did not assure you anything.
It was at best like a Exp boost and making it to max level first. Meaningless really.
Let me play with Your King Example.
Much like real life, The King (or any Nobel for that matter) will not be hiring the best blacksmith for anything other then to make their personal sword.. the bulk of their military weapons will be made by the lowest bidder who can make a serviceable weapon, which will be all the mid grade smiths looking for money and experience, but willing to take a cut to their profits for the sake of having the experience and holding a reliable contract.
I Imagine that CoE will be around the same idea, where the best players will want to go to the best smith, but, then you have a huge amount of in-progress players, or people who don't feel the need to dump the extra money for what amounts to very little gain.
This is also not to mention that in CoE they will not have a server wide auction house, like other games. So a local smith will still have a market share among there area, even if they are behind the best smith in the game.
Which makes "winning" in this regard, even harder. Now, again, the Most Prestigious/Best/Winning, smith might get some high profile clients, like a Nobel commissioning a iconic sword, maybe a gift to their mate or offspring, much like real life, The Local Smith will still service their area.
To use a real life example. OOC, makes choppers, and they make some amazing choppers at that, they are no doubt one of the best in the industry, this does not stop my local bike shop, who is.. to be honest, mediocre, from doing business. Equally so, not everyone who wants a bike will pay for a OOC chopper, and all too often will be more then happy with the bike they have.
So, I'm going to be blunt, when I say, I don't see the winning here. I mean, OOC was famous, and did a great job for themselves, and someone could call that 'winning', but, they have a lot of competition, and even then there is a whole lot argument of who is really the best bike builder, as for all their fame, OOC has not won many biker build offs.
If I'm not mistaken P2W anymore is any item that isn't just cosmetic, that's really what it's devolved into
It used to mean that no matter what you did in game you could never over-come another player that purchased something, hence pay to win
Now though, anything purchased outside of giving you a different "skin" or other type of cosmetic is considered P2W. Whether or not you agree with that sentiment doesn't really matter
So is CoE P2W? - Yea, I mean, it's pretty obvious with all the items sold and titles purchased that there are advantages given from the start.
Can they be overcome? - Also yes
Could the chainmail bikini that is purely cosmetic be considered P2W because all the waitresses in your tavern are wearing one to attract customers? - 乁( ◔ ౪◔)ㄏ
What it really means is "I don't wanna pay, so I am gonna call it P2W"
Hell, Mount Skins in GW2 were called P2W.. so.. Whatever on that..
Your idea that people don't wanna pay is putting the cart before the horse. People were paying before F2P or microtransactions. Publishers merely found they would pay more with microtransactions.
This is cited, but come on. companies are not going to go about testing ways to make money, if the model they have currently is working, if the sub model was as profitable as people like to believe, it would still be used.
Case in point, WoW and EvE stayed sub based games long, long after the boom of the F2P MMO because their method worked, it did not need to change.
Also when they say "More Money" is really just "Above Zero" which is not to be confused with "More then a Sub would provide|"and I think some people confuse it as such.
But there is no truth to this.
To give you an idea and play with some numbers, GW2, which has around 1.5 million active players. They made roughly 24 Million in Profits in the last Quarter, and that included sales of their Expansion Path of Fire.
Now, if they had a sub of say, 15 a month, that would have made around 67 million., and that is just the flat sub, nothing more, so, when you look at it, in reality they are losing over 40 million in potential income quarterly, being F2P.
Now with the numbers I have in GW2, the Average player is spending roughly only 5 dollars a month, (no wonder the cheapskates were calling a 20 dollar mount skins P2W, they were just too tight assed to want to spend the money)
So.. The whole Micro-transaction/Item Mall/F2P, is not getting players to pay More then a Sub.. they are just paying more then nothing at all.
Simply put, it's a matter of making more for doing less. Microtransactions generally involve small, easy to create assets that can then be multiplied at no cost.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
Hell I even intended to give away what I was building to an extent
But now it's not about building a world its about earning more and more money and who cares if those buying have a massive advantage and can troll others....
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
"classification of games into MMOs is not by rational reasoning" - nariusseldon
Love Minecraft. And check out my Youtube channel OhCanadaGamer
Try a MUD today at http://www.mudconnect.com/All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
But if makes you feel any better, "Advantages" can only got so far, as all too often with any MMO, there is Cap, and eventually enough people will reach it, to make rushing there first pointless.
Much in the same way, on my Evony Server, after a while there were enough large and powerful players, that those that bought all their power found themselves on the losing end, in typical cowardly fashion they fled the onslaught that was coming their way, because they used their bought power to bully other players.
In the end.. for all their P2W (and no one in their right mind would argue if Evony was P2W) brought them nothing but ruin.
I have no doubt that if this game gets made, things will end the same way here, for all the bought power, it will be a flash int he pan, and become meaningless, due to the fact there will be a cap to how powerful anyone can get, and if players can get there freely, it won't matter if someone else got there first, their destruction due to the animosity of the player base they aliened will eventually be their downfall.
As such, in truth, only those that truly bought it for a Pay 2 Build and manage will really survive in the long run, as people will all too often respect their efforts and work. Much like the difference between a Good Guild Leader and an Asshole with a Guild.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
Now,. keep in mind, I don't think GW2 maps smaller then WoW, so, they are not selling less a game for players to play, and both have only grown in the last 6 years, WOW with expansions and GW2, with living story maps (which is content given away for free) and expansions, so, why would GW2, settle with making 1/3 per player what WoW makes?
I'll await your theory.
1) They're relatively quick and easy assets to offer. One model or skin, priced at the level of a traditional game box (or more).
2) They focus on whale spending, which means that any general PR backlash is largely ineffective at curbing the revenue stream. It takes an extraordinarily coordinated effort between general consumers and public consumer figures (i.e. streamers) to actually create enough of a PR backlash to outweigh the spending whales will do in these systems. See the EA situation.
3) In many cases, the spending is geared towards up front purchases made before significant amounts of time have been played. XP/advancement pots are an example, as are paying for other convenience features like earlier mounts, inventory slots, etc.. This decreases the need for presenting a truly quality experience if you can skim the money from the players before they have a chance to even make a full personal assessment of whether or not the game experience itself is worth the purchase.
Not sure what your point is with comparing GW2 and WoW, as it isn't relevant to the point I made. Feel free to check the ESA reports for the years leading up to the rise of microtransactions. Unless I'm grossly miscalling what I've read, the gaming industry was in no trouble at all prior to the rise. The rise is not related to a need to cover costs, it's specifically geared at squeezing more out of gamers for less. While, from a strictly ethically-isolated business perspective, of course it makes sense. But, by that logic, why the hell would any company still produce goods here in America when they can do it cheaper elsewhere? Because many companies feel an ethical imperative to maintain a balance between straight up profit margins and ethical and/or more equitable treatments of their customers.