Skill development

YashaX

The video below about Crowfall seems to suggest that skills can be infinitely developed- ie there is no power cap. Is that true? Because if so it means you will never be able to reach an even footing with people that have played longer, which would make the game worthless for pvp.

natpick

yeah i really want to like this game but i keep hearing things like in the video that put me off .i think they are going for the eve online whale mentality tbh.shame cos it looks like it has a lot features i look for in a pvp game but i feel it will end up in heavy favour of no lifers/whales.i mean you can buy a very expensive premade  keep i believe?could be wrong on that.

Phry

You would have thought that they would have learned from Darkfalls mistakes when it comes to unlimited skill levels.

YashaX

Phry said:

You would have thought that they would have learned from Darkfalls mistakes when it comes to unlimited skill levels.

I would have thought so, but I am still unsure whether that is actually the case (its hard to believe they would implement that kind of a system!). Does anyone know if its really going to be like that?

@natpick I think the keep is just a cosmetic thing, which I think is fine for a pvp game. 

Eldurian

Don't have time to watch the whole video but they are going with an EVE style system. What that means is this:

You will never fully max every single skill, however, fully maxing a single role is pretty achievable. This is a perfectly fine system if how many roles you can effectively play at once are heavily limited by your gear. For instance in EVE each ship setup really only allows one role to be played effectively at once for the most part. So you can train to do logi, missiles, guns, target jamming, etc. but you will have to switch to different builds to do each of those roles effectively. It's not like if you are out in a DPS ship and someone needs logi support that you can do that just because you have it trained. So the more you train the more versatile a single character is, but it's not more powerful than anyone else playing the same role who's met the achievable goal of maxing that role.

If what this means is that there is no cap on say... your gunnery skill. And you can work on making your gunnery better, and better forever, then that does seem like a mistake.

However this does not favor no-lifers, and it doesn't favor whales. This is a train-over-time and not usage based skilling system. In other words if a skill takes 5 days to train, it takes 5 days to train. Online or offline. Using that skill or not using that skill. Swiper or not swiper. It takes 5 days to train that skill period.

This gives a huge advantage to people who join day 1. Whether they are super casuals who never pay a dime or no-lifing oil princes who swipe like mad. People who join later are the ones who get the shaft.

YashaX

Eldurian said:

If what this means is that there is no cap on say... your gunnery skill. And you can work on making your gunnery better, and better forever, then that does seem like a mistake.


This gives a huge advantage to people who join day 1. Whether they are super casuals who never pay a dime or no-lifing oil princes who swipe like mad. People who join later are the ones who get the shaft.

If it is really like either of these then I am terribly disappointed, but also very happy I have not given them any money!

Eldurian

I was a strong advocate of a campaign style where you start with fresh characters at the start of the campaign and your skillpoints can be applied to your permanent character at the end of the campaign, but a lot of people seemed strongly against this.

Overall I find EVE's system to be one of the least offensive / lowest barrier to entry systems though.

Frykka

There is an end to each skill tree and always will be... there are many skill trees but each applies to a different profession, race, or class. When you finish the trees that apply to a particular role, it is done, no more power but you can train other trees for other roles. Artcraft is redesigning the skill trees (third pass) this patch and will be more refined for roles but it is pure hogwash that there is unlimited training... the total time to train ALL skill trees was about 40+ years (until they sped training x10 for end game combat power testing.

 All Stats DO have a stat cap as well like 40% crit chance, 75% armor mitigation, 300% crit damage, etc so skill training beyond the cap doesn't help you... there are many ways to all of the stat caps and not just passive training. I have been testing CF exclusively for over 2 years, have crafted top end gear and PvP'd at every stage, things are still improving and more rapidly now as we head for our "soft" launch late this year.

 There is a catch up mechanic planned for people joining after launch as well as all skills have diminishing returns to the point of why bother. You would be better off selling your training time to a noobie by way of a skill tome than getting yourself another 0.24 crit chance. yes, Crowfall's skill gains are incrementally tiny over time whether logged in and playing or not. These account level skills apply across all Vessels (Character meat ships) that you play but only if the skill matches race/class.

 When a new campaign starts depending on the "module" of the campaign it will have a number (limited) of imports that will allow you to bring in some pre-made gear or valuable stuff in order to start right of with direct end game PvP for strategic locations, keeps, forts, mines, or harvesting zone control.  OR... be like the dregs campaign where NO imports will be allowed and you will have your skills but no advanced stat body (vessel) or any good gear... it takes at least a few weeks to harvest enough mats for end game gear.

FYI, the misinformation out there about Crowfall is pretty awful, very misleading, and honestly pretty dumb coming from non-players or PvE fanbois.   Yes, we have PvP issues to work through, ray-cast and large hit boxes feel too easy for action combat, some powers scale better with gear and training etc...   balancing will not be a priority until almost all of the major game mechanics are in place and working correctly...   for now some race/class combos are OP however as a GvG RvR type game they are not balance around 1v1 duels but rather around group synergy.   We have a bit more to reach the Alpha milestone this summer but well on the way...  a player who recently came from CU beta exclaimed "this is much further along and feels like more of a game" even though it is not yet that.

YashaX

Frykka said:

There is an end to each skill tree and always will be... there are many skill trees but each applies to a different profession, race, or class. When you finish the trees that apply to a particular role, it is done, no more power but you can train other trees for other roles. Artcraft is redesigning the skill trees (third pass) this patch and will be more refined for roles but it is pure hogwash that there is unlimited training... the total time to train ALL skill trees was about 40+ years (until they sped training x10 for end game combat power testing.

 All Stats DO have a stat cap as well like 40% crit chance, 75% armor mitigation, 300% crit damage, etc so skill training beyond the cap doesn't help you... there are many ways to all of the stat caps and not just passive training. I have been testing CF exclusively for over 2 years, have crafted top end gear and PvP'd at every stage, things are still improving and more rapidly now as we head for our "soft" launch late this year.

Thanks for the detailed explanation! This and CU are the two mmos I'm most looking forward to playing; unlimited advancement would just kill the whole thing for me, glad to hear its not going to be like that.

Mardukk

Eldurian said:

Don't have time to watch the whole video but they are going with an EVE style system. What that means is this:

You will never fully max every single skill, however, fully maxing a single role is pretty achievable. This is a perfectly fine system if how many roles you can effectively play at once are heavily limited by your gear. For instance in EVE each ship setup really only allows one role to be played effectively at once for the most part. So you can train to do logi, missiles, guns, target jamming, etc. but you will have to switch to different builds to do each of those roles effectively. It's not like if you are out in a DPS ship and someone needs logi support that you can do that just because you have it trained. So the more you train the more versatile a single character is, but it's not more powerful than anyone else playing the same role who's met the achievable goal of maxing that role.

If what this means is that there is no cap on say... your gunnery skill. And you can work on making your gunnery better, and better forever, then that does seem like a mistake.

However this does not favor no-lifers, and it doesn't favor whales. This is a train-over-time and not usage based skilling system. In other words if a skill takes 5 days to train, it takes 5 days to train. Online or offline. Using that skill or not using that skill. Swiper or not swiper. It takes 5 days to train that skill period.

This gives a huge advantage to people who join day 1. Whether they are super casuals who never pay a dime or no-lifing oil princes who swipe like mad. People who join later are the ones who get the shaft.

Uh oh, didn't know this game was skill over time not through usage.  I may still give it a shot, but it seems to be going a direction that I have no interest in.  Is character building a focus of the game? Anything for people that don't enjoy PvP for PvP's sake?  I enjoyed Darkfall UW but it seems that that game was more of an all encompassing PvP/PvE character/wealth builder than this game.

JamesGoblin

Mardukk said:

Uh oh, didn't know this game was skill over time not through usage.  I may still give it a shot, but it seems to be going a direction that I have no interest in.  Is character building a focus of the game? Anything for people that don't enjoy PvP for PvP's sake?  I enjoyed Darkfall UW but it seems that that game was more of an all encompassing PvP/PvE character/wealth builder than this game.

@Mardukk Speaking of depth and completeness, Darkfall doesn't deserve even to be put in the same sentence with Crowfall. I wouldn't worry about that.

On PvP in Crowfall, I'd say we will be PvPing for roughly 10% of the time, possibly less; EVE should be a good parallel. The rest: crafting, gathering, building, scouting, travelling, forums (guild and others), roaming, checking whether that siege started from your cell phone Crowfall app - while on toilet shell - relogging to this or that alt on another account, or to check what happens on another server, and so on.