It's something a game with $100+ million budget might try to implement, not something that a small indie team could hope to do.
Nothing in what they describe strikes me as unduly difficult to code. The reason most games don't put that kind of complexity into their crafting system is not that they can't, but that they don't want to because they don't think there's a market for it. If A Tale in the Desert had been massively successful, we'd probably have already seen a lot of games implement something along the lines of what they describe.
Is there a TLDR version of the crafting system? I don't care enough about crafting in general to read an entire book on it.
The TLDR version of their crafting system is to assert that there is no TLDR version of their crafting system. If you want a TLDR version, then crafting in this game isn't for you.
Game should have been released last year. Not even in Alpha testing... and they think this is something they are reasonably capable of creating.
Just think how much time is needed to crest this for every skill in the game. From Blacksmithing to Cooking to Minjng to Candlestick making...
Such continued disconnect from reality...
Love to “see his Gantt charts” on this one..
Why do you say that the game "should" have been released last year? Did they officially promise a 2017 release, or is that just your wishful thinking?
They had stated during their Kickstarter they figured the game would launch by Dec of 2017. However, it has been known for a long time that they weren't going to make that release date. And no new exact dates have been given, only tentative ones:)
A: It depends on our funding levels, as that will enable us to hire more staff to allow for concurrent development. Right now we’re aiming for December 2017 for full release. Alpha & Beta dates have not yet been released, as we’ll need to iterate on development and internal testing before each of those releases, so things are more fluid in those stages of development.
-----------------------
Hey, I get it they are late... but not just late. VERY VERY late. As in not even started Alpha yet.(and when questioned about his timeline the developer mocked those who doubted him and talked about his Gantt charts). So when I read they they want to add something as intricate as this to the game it just indicates a disconnect from reality (to me). Especially when they haven't been able to secure a publisher and had to lay off employees at Christmas. Adding/making things more complex right now seems to be the opposite of what they should do. They need to get a core game delivered ASAP then tweak and add nice to haves. But heck, thats just me talking...
Post edited by Slapshot1188 on
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
Game should have been released last year. Not even in Alpha testing... and they think this is something they are reasonably capable of creating.
Just think how much time is needed to crest this for every skill in the game. From Blacksmithing to Cooking to Minjng to Candlestick making...
Such continued disconnect from reality...
Love to “see his Gantt charts” on this one..
Why do you say that the game "should" have been released last year? Did they officially promise a 2017 release, or is that just your wishful thinking?
They had stated during their Kickstarter they figured the game would launch by Dec of 2017. However, it has been known for a long time that they weren't going to make that release date.
Yeah, developers often predict inaccurate delivery dates, but see my post for the true reason.
Mhmm, it is expected in the MMO industry that dates are often not met due to unforeseen circumstances. I don't know why anyone should think that SBS would be any different but as you said...
I would like to know your feelings on the intended crafting system though? *tries to pull the thread back on topic*
It's interesting to me that, while I've invested $175 of my money into the success of CoE, my investment dwarfs whatever time investment has been made my by Slapshot to this point. I'm not sure what his time is worth, but if it's worth anything at all to him he easily has 1000s of dollars of time invested into the failure of this game. It's kind of impressive in a way ... in a very strange way, but still impressive that anyone would invest so much into failure.
Note that he thinks my post is "Awesome". Just the most recent acknowledgement, from him this time, that he's a troll and should be ignored. You all have confirmation now, straight from him. Do as you will ...
Is what is mentioned possible? Would you like to see these features? Would you want an in depth crafting like this or would you rather it was simple point and click?
Getting back to what you said earlier OldFart, I was wondering how you felt about the Crafting features CoE is planning to implement? Being as you are not a backer, and have an unbiased opinion I am genuinely curious to know how you feel about it.
I know for me, I was interested in becoming an Alchemist but now I wonder if I would have the time for both Alchemy and running a County. heh
Just woke up and wow the thrad has blown up. Not finished it yet but since this is directly about me.
I'm not sure what I would do 100% and looking at that I wonder if I will get chance to do it well.
But based on them saying I could opc craft items I knew well....
I look forward to more information and exploring this further. It's a good read and if they pull it off will be a crafters paradise imho.
Honestly, not hyperbole.. to me this screams what someone does to setup an environment to support a thriving cash shop. Yes I know the usual suspects will vigorously disagree, but if I were going to setup a cash shop I would be sure to also pair it with a time consuming crafting mechanic as described in the diary. So that you COULD make everything in game... IF you are dedicated enough...
hrmmm - this point i don't agree with, guess that makes me one of the usual suspects
in fact i would go so far as to think it's the opposite
setting up/maintaining the existing one after launch with such an intended involved crafting system in place i agree would drive folks to use the cash shop
so then the question becomes "which is more likely: (A) this is all a con job and a cash grab and they are setting the stage for a cash grab shop for even ordinary items like swords, or (B) they are working on their long stated goals of having a very different and involved crafting and skill raising system that the players will find interesting and engaging
now i know many of the "other" usual suspects are going to pick (A) :P
Fair enough, but please do keep in mind that he has already opened the door to possibly having cosmetic items in the shop after launch as long as they can be crafted in game. And of course you can buy and spend EP all through the actual Exposition.. so that's at least 3 months of no wipe playing where you can buy items as needed or as you see their usefulness/benefits post launch...
No he agreed with a community member it was possible but that us diverging from the thread.
Also you mentioned before does @mystichaze think it' a good idea for players to have to understand the visual and audio cues.
I would also like to state yes it is a good idea.
My reasoning, in this game you progress your skills over numerous lifetimes and as the player your skill also improves whilst you learn these things further compounding that.
But it also allows those who learn quicker to have an edge over those that play for hundreds of hours without putting in a p2w cash shop
I must say that I'm pretty excited to actually "do" a craft instead of "click" ore becomes ingots - "click" ingots become weapons -
This kind of crafting system can seem tedious to most, but it's a core concept to CoE, it's literally one of the things that sets this game apart, it's not being "added on", it's a core concept
- And as I might add, like I've said before, this IS the game. A lot of people may think this will take time away from the Dev team for creating the game. But they aren't creating characters and quest lines and such. They are creating a player skill + character skill game for both crafters and warriors alike
After reading through the intricate journal that Snipe went into incredible detail with, it could seem like you would spend all day creating an ingot. When really, it may take just a few minutes, or an hour, or a day, or a week, or a month, or a century! That's the cool thing about testing these mechanics out. It's that if they seem too burdensome they could change some things. If certain things don't make sense, they can be removed. And this team has shown a great willingness in the past to take feedback and alter some of their vision
I can't wait for the CoE Mine-craft VoxElyria to come out soon and begin testing mechanics like this!
Actually, no one has addressed any of the questions that anyone criticizing this game have brought up
....
There are no mechanics to discuss. The only exists as ideas or concepts. There's no implementation that anyone can discuss at this time.
then, in this particular thread, i'd like to discuss the "intended" mechanics of the crafting thread, and not see it hijacked by the same (in some cases very valid) points that are beaten to death in numerous other threads
or have somebody start a thread of 'why the crafting system in CoE is going to fail" to stand alongside all the other 'CoE is going to fail because blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah'
many of those threads as i say have valid points - that isn't what is this particular thread is about
Discussion of fiction is something I can get behind. Because that's all the 'intended mechanics' of this are. If you read the link from the OP, you would have seen a narrative describing each of the steps a 'smith' would take, including the 'smith' haranguing his 'apprentice'. It is written to be closer to a work of fiction than anything that states explicit goals for a project. Any 'goals' are left for the reader to infer.
As a piece of fiction, this lacks the basics of character and plot. As a bit of backstory developing a character acting within a world, there is nothing that particularly stands out as being important for the character (or reader) to know in future exploits. If I were critiquing a draft with this passage, I'd suggest very strongly that it simply be discarded, as it is too long for most readers, and will drive readers away. That's *if* this passage was included in some longer story or novel. The passage doesn't work for me.
The 'concept' piece sounds entirely too much like someone having watched a Forged In Fire episode and regurgitated some key technical points. Someone referenced the Forged In Fire thing above. I need to go back and at least give them an 'Agree' or better.
So, this thread is only open to positive things to say about a hypothetical crafting system. The confidence in how this development team is or isn't going to be able to deliver such a system isn't something that can be discussed? That's a bit higher up on the food chain, I'd think, and will directly impact the implementation of any crafting system, I'd think.
But to play along, how many smiths are there going to be in any given area? Historically, that was highly limited. Maybe the ability to be a weaponsmith is something I missed in the pre-launch cash shop? How many people playing smiths are going to be able to tell a fire's temperature from the color of the fire/coals? How is a game going to simulate a heavy hammer blow as opposed to a light blow? How many key presses will this take, and if this going to be a 'whack-a-mole' type reaction, how long will the player have between the 'proper fire condition' and 'hammer stroke'? Is this game going to attempt to simulate 'historical' crafting? Will every character be able to learn every craft? That's very non-historical, as a Master would only teach their apprentices -- knowledge was highly secretive. Will the 'nobility' stoop to common trades? How is this crafting system going to be different from other games with 'everyone-does-everything' crafting?
There are a lot of questions not covered in the overly longish fiction describing a smith hammering away at an object. Things that will very much determine how the game will actually implement any crafting system, much less one with as few concrete goals as this one.
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
Actually, no one has addressed any of the questions that anyone criticizing this game have brought up
....
There are no mechanics to discuss. The only exists as ideas or concepts. There's no implementation that anyone can discuss at this time.
then, in this particular thread, i'd like to discuss the "intended" mechanics of the crafting thread, and not see it hijacked by the same (in some cases very valid) points that are beaten to death in numerous other threads
or have somebody start a thread of 'why the crafting system in CoE is going to fail" to stand alongside all the other 'CoE is going to fail because blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah'
many of those threads as i say have valid points - that isn't what is this particular thread is about
Discussion of fiction is something I can get behind. Because that's all the 'intended mechanics' of this are. If you read the link from the OP, you would have seen a narrative describing each of the steps a 'smith' would take, including the 'smith' haranguing his 'apprentice'. It is written to be closer to a work of fiction than anything that states explicit goals for a project. Any 'goals' are left for the reader to infer.
As a piece of fiction, this lacks the basics of character and plot. As a bit of backstory developing a character acting within a world, there is nothing that particularly stands out as being important for the character (or reader) to know in future exploits. If I were critiquing a draft with this passage, I'd suggest very strongly that it simply be discarded, as it is too long for most readers, and will drive readers away. That's *if* this passage was included in some longer story or novel. The passage doesn't work for me.
The 'concept' piece sounds entirely too much like someone having watched a Forged In Fire episode and regurgitated some key technical points. Someone referenced the Forged In Fire thing above. I need to go back and at least give them an 'Agree' or better.
So, this thread is only open to positive things to say about a hypothetical crafting system. The confidence in how this development team is or isn't going to be able to deliver such a system isn't something that can be discussed? That's a bit higher up on the food chain, I'd think, and will directly impact the implementation of any crafting system, I'd think.
But to play along, how many smiths are there going to be in any given area? Historically, that was highly limited. Maybe the ability to be a weaponsmith is something I missed in the pre-launch cash shop? How many people playing smiths are going to be able to tell a fire's temperature from the color of the fire/coals? How is a game going to simulate a heavy hammer blow as opposed to a light blow? How many key presses will this take, and if this going to be a 'whack-a-mole' type reaction, how long will the player have between the 'proper fire condition' and 'hammer stroke'? Is this game going to attempt to simulate 'historical' crafting? Will every character be able to learn every craft? That's very non-historical, as a Master would only teach their apprentices -- knowledge was highly secretive. Will the 'nobility' stoop to common trades? How is this crafting system going to be different from other games with 'everyone-does-everything' crafting?
There are a lot of questions not covered in the overly longish fiction describing a smith hammering away at an object. Things that will very much determine how the game will actually implement any crafting system, much less one with as few concrete goals as this one.
Now I didn't read this wall of text in its entirety mainly because in my opinon your talking rubbish. I wrote a wall of text explaining why but to be honest to type it in a way that won't get twisted is something I can' be bothered with so you will have to deal with this tldr:
I disagree and can't be bothered to explain to you why.
Actually, no one has addressed any of the questions that anyone criticizing this game have brought up
....
There are no mechanics to discuss. The only exists as ideas or concepts. There's no implementation that anyone can discuss at this time.
then, in this particular thread, i'd like to discuss the "intended" mechanics of the crafting thread, and not see it hijacked by the same (in some cases very valid) points that are beaten to death in numerous other threads
or have somebody start a thread of 'why the crafting system in CoE is going to fail" to stand alongside all the other 'CoE is going to fail because blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah'
many of those threads as i say have valid points - that isn't what is this particular thread is about
Discussion of fiction is something I can get behind. Because that's all the 'intended mechanics' of this are. If you read the link from the OP, you would have seen a narrative describing each of the steps a 'smith' would take, including the 'smith' haranguing his 'apprentice'. It is written to be closer to a work of fiction than anything that states explicit goals for a project. Any 'goals' are left for the reader to infer.
As a piece of fiction, this lacks the basics of character and plot. As a bit of backstory developing a character acting within a world, there is nothing that particularly stands out as being important for the character (or reader) to know in future exploits. If I were critiquing a draft with this passage, I'd suggest very strongly that it simply be discarded, as it is too long for most readers, and will drive readers away. That's *if* this passage was included in some longer story or novel. The passage doesn't work for me.
The 'concept' piece sounds entirely too much like someone having watched a Forged In Fire episode and regurgitated some key technical points. Someone referenced the Forged In Fire thing above. I need to go back and at least give them an 'Agree' or better.
So, this thread is only open to positive things to say about a hypothetical crafting system. The confidence in how this development team is or isn't going to be able to deliver such a system isn't something that can be discussed? That's a bit higher up on the food chain, I'd think, and will directly impact the implementation of any crafting system, I'd think.
But to play along, how many smiths are there going to be in any given area? Historically, that was highly limited. Maybe the ability to be a weaponsmith is something I missed in the pre-launch cash shop? How many people playing smiths are going to be able to tell a fire's temperature from the color of the fire/coals? How is a game going to simulate a heavy hammer blow as opposed to a light blow? How many key presses will this take, and if this going to be a 'whack-a-mole' type reaction, how long will the player have between the 'proper fire condition' and 'hammer stroke'? Is this game going to attempt to simulate 'historical' crafting? Will every character be able to learn every craft? That's very non-historical, as a Master would only teach their apprentices -- knowledge was highly secretive. Will the 'nobility' stoop to common trades? How is this crafting system going to be different from other games with 'everyone-does-everything' crafting?
There are a lot of questions not covered in the overly longish fiction describing a smith hammering away at an object. Things that will very much determine how the game will actually implement any crafting system, much less one with as few concrete goals as this one.
Now I didn't read this wall of text in its entirety mainly because in my opinon your talking rubbish. I wrote a wall of text explaining why but to be honest to type it in a way that won't get twisted is something I can' be bothered with so you will have to deal with this tldr:
I disagree and can't be bothered to explain to you why.
That's not very convincing. The article did go to lengths to describe a process, but as Mendel states, I didn't see any real nuts and bolts to it, so it's still a really nebulous concept. Which can be nice to hypothesize around, sure, but Mendel's opinion is still a valid one. To discuss the effects of the system or its potential, we must know how it will actually function as a gameplay system, not just as a generally described process.
the discussion of any mechanics of a game in development can be categorized as fiction until the game gets to a point where those specific mechanics can actually be tested
certainly not advocating that only positive things be discussed, and i think you raise some valid points and concerns
my comments regarding staying on topic was regarding the rehashing of the same topics of whether this studio can deliver upon its promises that have been beaten to death in already existing threads, and taking away from the discussion of the topic of the thread "how crafting in CoE compares to more traditional mmo's", be that positive OR negative
a number of valid concerns have already been raised and folks have given their varying takes on them
the density of smiths (or any other crafter profession in any given area for that matter) i would think would be far less than in traditional mmo's where everybody can be a smith, and mine resources from a node that respawns every few hours etc, then resell what they made in macro'd batches to an npc smith
that in itself is going to make for some interesting mechanics
"How many people playing smiths are going to be able to tell a fire's temperature from the color of the fire/coals?" - only those that take the time to learn the differences
"Will every character be able to learn every craft?" - no, not every character will be able to learn to craft in every profession - my feeling is that unlike me making crafting toons legendary in every profession as i have in many other mmo's, i think one could only be legendary in one given the time needed to dedicate to it, and even then, with only 1% able to be 'legendary' in their given profession at any given time, there's not guarantee that even after all your hard work and effort you will actually be legendary, though they have said the difference between a grandmaster and legendary smith will be there, but not overwhelmingly significant
i certainly expect the knowledge to be highly secretive, as addressed in an earlier post made in this thread, along with some of the potential consequences of that
also, i will be interviewing Snipehunter, the author of the dev journal this thread was created in response to, next thursday april 12th and raise some of these questions as well as some of the concerns - feel free to watch :P
Actually, no one has addressed any of the questions that anyone criticizing this game have brought up
....
There are no mechanics to discuss. The only exists as ideas or concepts. There's no implementation that anyone can discuss at this time.
then, in this particular thread, i'd like to discuss the "intended" mechanics of the crafting thread, and not see it hijacked by the same (in some cases very valid) points that are beaten to death in numerous other threads
or have somebody start a thread of 'why the crafting system in CoE is going to fail" to stand alongside all the other 'CoE is going to fail because blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah'
many of those threads as i say have valid points - that isn't what is this particular thread is about
Discussion of fiction is something I can get behind. Because that's all the 'intended mechanics' of this are. If you read the link from the OP, you would have seen a narrative describing each of the steps a 'smith' would take, including the 'smith' haranguing his 'apprentice'. It is written to be closer to a work of fiction than anything that states explicit goals for a project. Any 'goals' are left for the reader to infer.
As a piece of fiction, this lacks the basics of character and plot. As a bit of backstory developing a character acting within a world, there is nothing that particularly stands out as being important for the character (or reader) to know in future exploits. If I were critiquing a draft with this passage, I'd suggest very strongly that it simply be discarded, as it is too long for most readers, and will drive readers away. That's *if* this passage was included in some longer story or novel. The passage doesn't work for me.
The 'concept' piece sounds entirely too much like someone having watched a Forged In Fire episode and regurgitated some key technical points. Someone referenced the Forged In Fire thing above. I need to go back and at least give them an 'Agree' or better.
So, this thread is only open to positive things to say about a hypothetical crafting system. The confidence in how this development team is or isn't going to be able to deliver such a system isn't something that can be discussed? That's a bit higher up on the food chain, I'd think, and will directly impact the implementation of any crafting system, I'd think.
But to play along, how many smiths are there going to be in any given area? Historically, that was highly limited. Maybe the ability to be a weaponsmith is something I missed in the pre-launch cash shop? How many people playing smiths are going to be able to tell a fire's temperature from the color of the fire/coals? How is a game going to simulate a heavy hammer blow as opposed to a light blow? How many key presses will this take, and if this going to be a 'whack-a-mole' type reaction, how long will the player have between the 'proper fire condition' and 'hammer stroke'? Is this game going to attempt to simulate 'historical' crafting? Will every character be able to learn every craft? That's very non-historical, as a Master would only teach their apprentices -- knowledge was highly secretive. Will the 'nobility' stoop to common trades? How is this crafting system going to be different from other games with 'everyone-does-everything' crafting?
There are a lot of questions not covered in the overly longish fiction describing a smith hammering away at an object. Things that will very much determine how the game will actually implement any crafting system, much less one with as few concrete goals as this one.
Now I didn't read this wall of text in its entirety mainly because in my opinon your talking rubbish. I wrote a wall of text explaining why but to be honest to type it in a way that won't get twisted is something I can' be bothered with so you will have to deal with this tldr:
I disagree and can't be bothered to explain to you why.
That's not very convincing. The article did go to lengths to describe a process, but as Mendel states, I didn't see any real nuts and bolts to it, so it's still a really nebulous concept. Which can be nice to hypothesize around, sure, but Mendel's opinion is still a valid one. To discuss the effects of the system or its potential, we must know how it will actually function as a gameplay system, not just as a generally described process.
You explain why you believe that until they mention how the actual gameplay effects crafting it can't be discussed properly. This I can respect and even agree with.
Mendel just waffled on how it's a work of fiction without any points made (as I said I didn't read it all because.... wall of text). That's why my disagreement had no context because i was matching what I read of his point before getting bored.
also, i will be interviewing Snipehunter, the author of the dev journal this thread was created in response to, next thursday april 12th and raise some of these questions as well as some of the concerns - feel free to watch :P
Actually, no one has addressed any of the questions that anyone criticizing this game have brought up
....
There are no mechanics to discuss. The only exists as ideas or concepts. There's no implementation that anyone can discuss at this time.
then, in this particular thread, i'd like to discuss the "intended" mechanics of the crafting thread, and not see it hijacked by the same (in some cases very valid) points that are beaten to death in numerous other threads
or have somebody start a thread of 'why the crafting system in CoE is going to fail" to stand alongside all the other 'CoE is going to fail because blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah'
many of those threads as i say have valid points - that isn't what is this particular thread is about
Discussion of fiction is something I can get behind. Because that's all the 'intended mechanics' of this are. If you read the link from the OP, you would have seen a narrative describing each of the steps a 'smith' would take, including the 'smith' haranguing his 'apprentice'. It is written to be closer to a work of fiction than anything that states explicit goals for a project. Any 'goals' are left for the reader to infer.
As a piece of fiction, this lacks the basics of character and plot. As a bit of backstory developing a character acting within a world, there is nothing that particularly stands out as being important for the character (or reader) to know in future exploits. If I were critiquing a draft with this passage, I'd suggest very strongly that it simply be discarded, as it is too long for most readers, and will drive readers away. That's *if* this passage was included in some longer story or novel. The passage doesn't work for me.
The 'concept' piece sounds entirely too much like someone having watched a Forged In Fire episode and regurgitated some key technical points. Someone referenced the Forged In Fire thing above. I need to go back and at least give them an 'Agree' or better.
So, this thread is only open to positive things to say about a hypothetical crafting system. The confidence in how this development team is or isn't going to be able to deliver such a system isn't something that can be discussed? That's a bit higher up on the food chain, I'd think, and will directly impact the implementation of any crafting system, I'd think.
But to play along, how many smiths are there going to be in any given area? Historically, that was highly limited. Maybe the ability to be a weaponsmith is something I missed in the pre-launch cash shop? How many people playing smiths are going to be able to tell a fire's temperature from the color of the fire/coals? How is a game going to simulate a heavy hammer blow as opposed to a light blow? How many key presses will this take, and if this going to be a 'whack-a-mole' type reaction, how long will the player have between the 'proper fire condition' and 'hammer stroke'? Is this game going to attempt to simulate 'historical' crafting? Will every character be able to learn every craft? That's very non-historical, as a Master would only teach their apprentices -- knowledge was highly secretive. Will the 'nobility' stoop to common trades? How is this crafting system going to be different from other games with 'everyone-does-everything' crafting?
There are a lot of questions not covered in the overly longish fiction describing a smith hammering away at an object. Things that will very much determine how the game will actually implement any crafting system, much less one with as few concrete goals as this one.
Now I didn't read this wall of text in its entirety mainly because in my opinon your talking rubbish. I wrote a wall of text explaining why but to be honest to type it in a way that won't get twisted is something I can' be bothered with so you will have to deal with this tldr:
I disagree and can't be bothered to explain to you why.
That's not very convincing. The article did go to lengths to describe a process, but as Mendel states, I didn't see any real nuts and bolts to it, so it's still a really nebulous concept. Which can be nice to hypothesize around, sure, but Mendel's opinion is still a valid one. To discuss the effects of the system or its potential, we must know how it will actually function as a gameplay system, not just as a generally described process.
You explain why you believe that until they mention how the actual gameplay effects crafting it can't be discussed properly. This I can respect and even agree with.
Mendel just waffled on how it's a work of fiction without any points made (as I said I didn't read it all because.... wall of text). That's why my disagreement had no context because i was matching what I read of his point before getting bored.
The fiction portion was a bit of flavor added to help illustrate his point, which was similar to mine.
And he poses specific questions, but I'm not sure there's even an answer to be given to most of them yet. Again, I think this was part of his point. We're all merely hypothesizing on the description of a system we really know nothing about because it's just an idea at this point. We can't interact with it for ourselves. That's why he describes the intended mechanics as fiction at this point.
It's something a game with $100+ million budget might try to implement, not something that a small indie team could hope to do.
Nothing in what they describe strikes me as unduly difficult to code. The reason most games don't put that kind of complexity into their crafting system is not that they can't, but that they don't want to because they don't think there's a market for it. If A Tale in the Desert had been massively successful, we'd probably have already seen a lot of games implement something along the lines of what they describe.
I think what they want to code sounds like a monumental task if they're actually trying to emulate real systems. They've also moved from RPG to sim with this. Even ATitD doesn't have the player execute, in real time, step by step smelting and forging. Real world modeling isn't trivial. Now, if they're not real world modeling, which is what they're selling in the dev diary, and it's something simpler, then sure of course it will be easy.
If it's so easy to write something like this out, then I think we'd see it everywhere. We don't see it everywhere. ATitD doesn't have this depth of complexity with each individual step, and it's all about crafting. So if it were so easy to do this why don't they just drop it in? I'm not buying the "it's so easy" line. That's just dismissing a point without a counter argument. If it's as easy as you claim, then it should be easy to prove that.
When this was announced I expected something more along the lines of what Project Gorgon offers for professions or a system like ATitD. As a concept this is interesting. This doesn't seem realistic at all, and not realistically appealing to RPG gamers.
I'm interested in being able to craft cool items, not learning and then simulating ancient or fantasy crafting techniques. I'm not interested in learning the austenitic and martensitic alloys and why. Are RPG gamers going to want to try and replicate 300 series austenitic SS as some sort of acidic resistant armour? Is the game physics even going to account for that?
It's great they want to develop a deep meaningful crafting system. The important part is that it's engaging. This sounds like it's overly complex just for the sake of it. I get the feeling that it was decided, "If it's complex and detailed it must be better." That's not true.
Actually, no one has addressed any of the questions that anyone criticizing this game have brought up
....
There are no mechanics to discuss. The only exists as ideas or concepts. There's no implementation that anyone can discuss at this time.
then, in this particular thread, i'd like to discuss the "intended" mechanics of the crafting thread, and not see it hijacked by the same (in some cases very valid) points that are beaten to death in numerous other threads
or have somebody start a thread of 'why the crafting system in CoE is going to fail" to stand alongside all the other 'CoE is going to fail because blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah'
many of those threads as i say have valid points - that isn't what is this particular thread is about
Discussion of fiction is something I can get behind. Because that's all the 'intended mechanics' of this are. If you read the link from the OP, you would have seen a narrative describing each of the steps a 'smith' would take, including the 'smith' haranguing his 'apprentice'. It is written to be closer to a work of fiction than anything that states explicit goals for a project. Any 'goals' are left for the reader to infer.
As a piece of fiction, this lacks the basics of character and plot. As a bit of backstory developing a character acting within a world, there is nothing that particularly stands out as being important for the character (or reader) to know in future exploits. If I were critiquing a draft with this passage, I'd suggest very strongly that it simply be discarded, as it is too long for most readers, and will drive readers away. That's *if* this passage was included in some longer story or novel. The passage doesn't work for me.
The 'concept' piece sounds entirely too much like someone having watched a Forged In Fire episode and regurgitated some key technical points. Someone referenced the Forged In Fire thing above. I need to go back and at least give them an 'Agree' or better.
So, this thread is only open to positive things to say about a hypothetical crafting system. The confidence in how this development team is or isn't going to be able to deliver such a system isn't something that can be discussed? That's a bit higher up on the food chain, I'd think, and will directly impact the implementation of any crafting system, I'd think.
But to play along, how many smiths are there going to be in any given area? Historically, that was highly limited. Maybe the ability to be a weaponsmith is something I missed in the pre-launch cash shop? How many people playing smiths are going to be able to tell a fire's temperature from the color of the fire/coals? How is a game going to simulate a heavy hammer blow as opposed to a light blow? How many key presses will this take, and if this going to be a 'whack-a-mole' type reaction, how long will the player have between the 'proper fire condition' and 'hammer stroke'? Is this game going to attempt to simulate 'historical' crafting? Will every character be able to learn every craft? That's very non-historical, as a Master would only teach their apprentices -- knowledge was highly secretive. Will the 'nobility' stoop to common trades? How is this crafting system going to be different from other games with 'everyone-does-everything' crafting?
There are a lot of questions not covered in the overly longish fiction describing a smith hammering away at an object. Things that will very much determine how the game will actually implement any crafting system, much less one with as few concrete goals as this one.
Now I didn't read this wall of text in its entirety mainly because in my opinon your talking rubbish. I wrote a wall of text explaining why but to be honest to type it in a way that won't get twisted is something I can' be bothered with so you will have to deal with this tldr:
I disagree and can't be bothered to explain to you why.
That's not very convincing. The article did go to lengths to describe a process, but as Mendel states, I didn't see any real nuts and bolts to it, so it's still a really nebulous concept. Which can be nice to hypothesize around, sure, but Mendel's opinion is still a valid one. To discuss the effects of the system or its potential, we must know how it will actually function as a gameplay system, not just as a generally described process.
You explain why you believe that until they mention how the actual gameplay effects crafting it can't be discussed properly. This I can respect and even agree with.
Mendel just waffled on how it's a work of fiction without any points made (as I said I didn't read it all because.... wall of text). That's why my disagreement had no context because i was matching what I read of his point before getting bored.
The fiction portion was a bit of flavor added to help illustrate his point, which was similar to mine.
And he poses specific questions, but I'm not sure there's even an answer to be given to most of them yet. Again, I think this was part of his point. We're all merely hypothesizing on the description of a system we really know nothing about because it's just an idea at this point. We can't interact with it for ourselves. That's why he describes the intended mechanics as fiction at this point.
The I apologise to @Mendel and suggest maybe a TLDR when writing that much?
she was stating that the mechanics of crafting might be so in depth and time consuming to level up, that she questions whether she would be able to level up an alchemist with those mechanics AND run a county
<snip>... but also do you think it is a good idea to tie PLAYER skill into a process that your CHARACTER is supposed to do?
<snip>
honestly could have just ended it right there, lol. I think this is the most valid point. Where does the roleplay end and the gameplay begin?
the discussion of any mechanics of a game in development can be categorized as fiction until the game gets to a point where those specific mechanics can actually be tested
certainly not advocating that only positive things be discussed, and i think you raise some valid points and concerns
my comments regarding staying on topic was regarding the rehashing of the same topics of whether this studio can deliver upon its promises that have been beaten to death in already existing threads, and taking away from the discussion of the topic of the thread "how crafting in CoE compares to more traditional mmo's", be that positive OR negative
a number of valid concerns have already been raised and folks have given their varying takes on them
the density of smiths (or any other crafter profession in any given area for that matter) i would think would be far less than in traditional mmo's where everybody can be a smith, and mine resources from a node that respawns every few hours etc, then resell what they made in macro'd batches to an npc smith
that in itself is going to make for some interesting mechanics
"How many people playing smiths are going to be able to tell a fire's temperature from the color of the fire/coals?" - only those that take the time to learn the differences
"Will every character be able to learn every craft?" - no, not every character will be able to learn to craft in every profession - my feeling is that unlike me making crafting toons legendary in every profession as i have in many other mmo's, i think one could only be legendary in one given the time needed to dedicate to it, and even then, with only 1% able to be 'legendary' in their given profession at any given time, there's not guarantee that even after all your hard work and effort you will actually be legendary, though they have said the difference between a grandmaster and legendary smith will be there, but not overwhelmingly significant
i certainly expect the knowledge to be highly secretive, as addressed in an earlier post made in this thread, along with some of the potential consequences of that
also, i will be interviewing Snipehunter, the author of the dev journal this thread was created in response to, next thursday april 12th and raise some of these questions as well as some of the concerns - feel free to watch :P
Care to let me ask a few questions and follow ups?
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honestly could have just ended it right there, lol. I think this is the most valid point. Where does the roleplay end and the gameplay begin?
It's a mix of your character's skill and your own skill as a player
I might be a master Smith and Forge of Fire champion, but when my character starts out he/she will be on a low level and won't be able to craft Plate Mail using all the amazing techniques I know IRL, he/she'll be restricted to the "recipes" and "knowledge" he/she has as a Smit
From my understanding after reading the Dev Journal, you will learn techniques and open 'recipe books' in order to do/craft certain things. This is where your "character's skill" comes into play
Or take an example of a cook. In real life I might know how to make some amazing deserts. But if my character is a novice they wouldn't have the "recipes" or knowledge in order to combine certain ingredients to make that delicious pineapple upside down cake that happens to be my specialty IRL
The goal of SBS seems to be making crafting more of an interaction, and require some choice and reactions on the part of the player to keep from failing. Instead of how UO for example does just a skill check and % for fail/success on crafting equipment
Actually, no one has addressed any of the questions that anyone criticizing this game have brought up
....
There are no mechanics to discuss. The only exists as ideas or concepts. There's no implementation that anyone can discuss at this time.
then, in this particular thread, i'd like to discuss the "intended" mechanics of the crafting thread, and not see it hijacked by the same (in some cases very valid) points that are beaten to death in numerous other threads
or have somebody start a thread of 'why the crafting system in CoE is going to fail" to stand alongside all the other 'CoE is going to fail because blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah'
many of those threads as i say have valid points - that isn't what is this particular thread is about
Discussion of fiction is something I can get behind. Because that's all the 'intended mechanics' of this are. If you read the link from the OP, you would have seen a narrative describing each of the steps a 'smith' would take, including the 'smith' haranguing his 'apprentice'. It is written to be closer to a work of fiction than anything that states explicit goals for a project. Any 'goals' are left for the reader to infer.
As a piece of fiction, this lacks the basics of character and plot. As a bit of backstory developing a character acting within a world, there is nothing that particularly stands out as being important for the character (or reader) to know in future exploits. If I were critiquing a draft with this passage, I'd suggest very strongly that it simply be discarded, as it is too long for most readers, and will drive readers away. That's *if* this passage was included in some longer story or novel. The passage doesn't work for me.
The 'concept' piece sounds entirely too much like someone having watched a Forged In Fire episode and regurgitated some key technical points. Someone referenced the Forged In Fire thing above. I need to go back and at least give them an 'Agree' or better.
So, this thread is only open to positive things to say about a hypothetical crafting system. The confidence in how this development team is or isn't going to be able to deliver such a system isn't something that can be discussed? That's a bit higher up on the food chain, I'd think, and will directly impact the implementation of any crafting system, I'd think.
But to play along, how many smiths are there going to be in any given area? Historically, that was highly limited. Maybe the ability to be a weaponsmith is something I missed in the pre-launch cash shop? How many people playing smiths are going to be able to tell a fire's temperature from the color of the fire/coals? How is a game going to simulate a heavy hammer blow as opposed to a light blow? How many key presses will this take, and if this going to be a 'whack-a-mole' type reaction, how long will the player have between the 'proper fire condition' and 'hammer stroke'? Is this game going to attempt to simulate 'historical' crafting? Will every character be able to learn every craft? That's very non-historical, as a Master would only teach their apprentices -- knowledge was highly secretive. Will the 'nobility' stoop to common trades? How is this crafting system going to be different from other games with 'everyone-does-everything' crafting?
There are a lot of questions not covered in the overly longish fiction describing a smith hammering away at an object. Things that will very much determine how the game will actually implement any crafting system, much less one with as few concrete goals as this one.
Now I didn't read this wall of text in its entirety mainly because in my opinon your talking rubbish. I wrote a wall of text explaining why but to be honest to type it in a way that won't get twisted is something I can' be bothered with so you will have to deal with this tldr:
I disagree and can't be bothered to explain to you why.
That's not very convincing. The article did go to lengths to describe a process, but as Mendel states, I didn't see any real nuts and bolts to it, so it's still a really nebulous concept. Which can be nice to hypothesize around, sure, but Mendel's opinion is still a valid one. To discuss the effects of the system or its potential, we must know how it will actually function as a gameplay system, not just as a generally described process.
You explain why you believe that until they mention how the actual gameplay effects crafting it can't be discussed properly. This I can respect and even agree with.
Mendel just waffled on how it's a work of fiction without any points made (as I said I didn't read it all because.... wall of text). That's why my disagreement had no context because i was matching what I read of his point before getting bored.
The fiction portion was a bit of flavor added to help illustrate his point, which was similar to mine.
And he poses specific questions, but I'm not sure there's even an answer to be given to most of them yet. Again, I think this was part of his point. We're all merely hypothesizing on the description of a system we really know nothing about because it's just an idea at this point. We can't interact with it for ourselves. That's why he describes the intended mechanics as fiction at this point.
The I apologise to @Mendel and suggest maybe a TLDR when writing that much?
**edit to fix spelling mistake***
No big deal. One of the few things caffeine doesn't help is rambling. Even for me, that one got away from me a bit.
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
honestly could have just ended it right there, lol. I think this is the most valid point. Where does the roleplay end and the gameplay begin?
It's a mix of your character's skill and your own skill as a player
I might be a master Smith and Forge of Fire champion, but when my character starts out he/she will be on a low level and won't be able to craft Plate Mail using all the amazing techniques I know IRL, he/she'll be restricted to the "recipes" and "knowledge" he/she has as a Smit
From my understanding after reading the Dev Journal, you will learn techniques and open 'recipe books' in order to do/craft certain things. This is where your "character's skill" comes into play
Or take an example of a cook. In real life I might know how to make some amazing deserts. But if my character is a novice they wouldn't have the "recipes" or knowledge in order to combine certain ingredients to make that delicious pineapple upside down cake that happens to be my specialty IRL
The goal of SBS seems to be making crafting more of an interaction, and require some choice and reactions on the part of the player to keep from failing. Instead of how UO for example does just a skill check and % for fail/success on crafting equipment
The issue is best exemplified by the reverse of your example.
My character is the cook also known as Iron Chef Slapshot. He has been a culinary expert for decades. I the player am not. Why should Iron Chef Slapshot’s success at making that delicious pineapple upside down cake in any way depend on Slapshot the players ability to measure ingredients and use audio and visual queues to properly combine and bake it? I’m not an Iron Chef IRL so why hinge the Iron Chefs cooking to my cooking skill?
This is comparable to what you say about the novice cook not being able to make your pineapple upside down cake simply because you the player are an expert. You are right. They shouldn’t.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
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Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
Comments
A: It depends on our funding levels, as that will enable us to hire more staff to allow for concurrent development. Right now we’re aiming for December 2017 for full release. Alpha & Beta dates have not yet been released, as we’ll need to iterate on development and internal testing before each of those releases, so things are more fluid in those stages of development.
-----------------------
Hey, I get it they are late... but not just late. VERY VERY late. As in not even started Alpha yet.(and when questioned about his timeline the developer mocked those who doubted him and talked about his Gantt charts). So when I read they they want to add something as intricate as this to the game it just indicates a disconnect from reality (to me). Especially when they haven't been able to secure a publisher and had to lay off employees at Christmas. Adding/making things more complex right now seems to be the opposite of what they should do. They need to get a core game delivered ASAP then tweak and add nice to haves. But heck, thats just me talking...
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
I would like to know your feelings on the intended crafting system though? *tries to pull the thread back on topic*
I'm not sure what I would do 100% and looking at that I wonder if I will get chance to do it well.
But based on them saying I could opc craft items I knew well....
I look forward to more information and exploring this further. It's a good read and if they pull it off will be a crafters paradise imho.
Also you mentioned before does @mystichaze think it' a good idea for players to have to understand the visual and audio cues.
I would also like to state yes it is a good idea.
My reasoning, in this game you progress your skills over numerous lifetimes and as the player your skill also improves whilst you learn these things further compounding that.
But it also allows those who learn quicker to have an edge over those that play for hundreds of hours without putting in a p2w cash shop
The design journal was quite the read to be sure!
I must say that I'm pretty excited to actually "do" a craft instead of "click" ore becomes ingots - "click" ingots become weapons -
This kind of crafting system can seem tedious to most, but it's a core concept to CoE, it's literally one of the things that sets this game apart, it's not being "added on", it's a core concept
- And as I might add, like I've said before, this IS the game. A lot of people may think this will take time away from the Dev team for creating the game. But they aren't creating characters and quest lines and such. They are creating a player skill + character skill game for both crafters and warriors alike
After reading through the intricate journal that Snipe went into incredible detail with, it could seem like you would spend all day creating an ingot. When really, it may take just a few minutes, or an hour, or a day, or a week, or a month, or a century! That's the cool thing about testing these mechanics out. It's that if they seem too burdensome they could change some things. If certain things don't make sense, they can be removed. And this team has shown a great willingness in the past to take feedback and alter some of their vision
I can't wait for the CoE Mine-craft VoxElyria to come out soon and begin testing mechanics like this!
As a piece of fiction, this lacks the basics of character and plot. As a bit of backstory developing a character acting within a world, there is nothing that particularly stands out as being important for the character (or reader) to know in future exploits. If I were critiquing a draft with this passage, I'd suggest very strongly that it simply be discarded, as it is too long for most readers, and will drive readers away. That's *if* this passage was included in some longer story or novel. The passage doesn't work for me.
The 'concept' piece sounds entirely too much like someone having watched a Forged In Fire episode and regurgitated some key technical points. Someone referenced the Forged In Fire thing above. I need to go back and at least give them an 'Agree' or better.
So, this thread is only open to positive things to say about a hypothetical crafting system. The confidence in how this development team is or isn't going to be able to deliver such a system isn't something that can be discussed? That's a bit higher up on the food chain, I'd think, and will directly impact the implementation of any crafting system, I'd think.
But to play along, how many smiths are there going to be in any given area? Historically, that was highly limited. Maybe the ability to be a weaponsmith is something I missed in the pre-launch cash shop? How many people playing smiths are going to be able to tell a fire's temperature from the color of the fire/coals? How is a game going to simulate a heavy hammer blow as opposed to a light blow? How many key presses will this take, and if this going to be a 'whack-a-mole' type reaction, how long will the player have between the 'proper fire condition' and 'hammer stroke'? Is this game going to attempt to simulate 'historical' crafting? Will every character be able to learn every craft? That's very non-historical, as a Master would only teach their apprentices -- knowledge was highly secretive. Will the 'nobility' stoop to common trades? How is this crafting system going to be different from other games with 'everyone-does-everything' crafting?
There are a lot of questions not covered in the overly longish fiction describing a smith hammering away at an object. Things that will very much determine how the game will actually implement any crafting system, much less one with as few concrete goals as this one.
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
I wrote a wall of text explaining why but to be honest to type it in a way that won't get twisted is something I can' be bothered with so you will have to deal with this tldr:
I disagree and can't be bothered to explain to you why.
certainly not advocating that only positive things be discussed, and i think you raise some valid points and concerns
my comments regarding staying on topic was regarding the rehashing of the same topics of whether this studio can deliver upon its promises that have been beaten to death in already existing threads, and taking away from the discussion of the topic of the thread "how crafting in CoE compares to more traditional mmo's", be that positive OR negative
a number of valid concerns have already been raised and folks have given their varying takes on them
the density of smiths (or any other crafter profession in any given area for that matter) i would think would be far less than in traditional mmo's where everybody can be a smith, and mine resources from a node that respawns every few hours etc, then resell what they made in macro'd batches to an npc smith
that in itself is going to make for some interesting mechanics
"How many people playing smiths are going to be able to tell a fire's temperature from the color of the fire/coals?" - only those that take the time to learn the differences
"Will every character be able to learn every craft?" - no, not every character will be able to learn to craft in every profession - my feeling is that unlike me making crafting toons legendary in every profession as i have in many other mmo's, i think one could only be legendary in one given the time needed to dedicate to it, and even then, with only 1% able to be 'legendary' in their given profession at any given time, there's not guarantee that even after all your hard work and effort you will actually be legendary, though they have said the difference between a grandmaster and legendary smith will be there, but not overwhelmingly significant
i certainly expect the knowledge to be highly secretive, as addressed in an earlier post made in this thread, along with some of the potential consequences of that
also, i will be interviewing Snipehunter, the author of the dev journal this thread was created in response to, next thursday april 12th and raise some of these questions as well as some of the concerns - feel free to watch :P
This I can respect and even agree with.
Mendel just waffled on how it's a work of fiction without any points made (as I said I didn't read it all because.... wall of text).
That's why my disagreement had no context because i was matching what I read of his point before getting bored.
I look forward to seeing that
And he poses specific questions, but I'm not sure there's even an answer to be given to most of them yet. Again, I think this was part of his point. We're all merely hypothesizing on the description of a system we really know nothing about because it's just an idea at this point. We can't interact with it for ourselves. That's why he describes the intended mechanics as fiction at this point.
**edit to fix spelling mistake***
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
It's a mix of your character's skill and your own skill as a player
I might be a master Smith and Forge of Fire champion, but when my character starts out he/she will be on a low level and won't be able to craft Plate Mail using all the amazing techniques I know IRL, he/she'll be restricted to the "recipes" and "knowledge" he/she has as a Smit
From my understanding after reading the Dev Journal, you will learn techniques and open 'recipe books' in order to do/craft certain things. This is where your "character's skill" comes into play
Or take an example of a cook. In real life I might know how to make some amazing deserts. But if my character is a novice they wouldn't have the "recipes" or knowledge in order to combine certain ingredients to make that delicious pineapple upside down cake that happens to be my specialty IRL
The goal of SBS seems to be making crafting more of an interaction, and require some choice and reactions on the part of the player to keep from failing. Instead of how UO for example does just a skill check and % for fail/success on crafting equipment
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
My character is the cook also known as Iron Chef Slapshot. He has been a culinary expert for decades. I the player am not. Why should Iron Chef Slapshot’s success at making that delicious pineapple upside down cake in any way depend on Slapshot the players ability to measure ingredients and use audio and visual queues to properly combine and bake it? I’m not an Iron Chef IRL so why hinge the Iron Chefs cooking to my cooking skill?
This is comparable to what you say about the novice cook not being able to make your pineapple upside down cake simply because you the player are an expert. You are right. They shouldn’t.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018