The point is everyone starts an MOBA / RTS / FPS like LoL or PUBG at the same time. They all start on equal footing, and the match is determined from there by skill and perhaps a bit of luck.
There is no skill in starting a game much earlier than your opponents and beating everyone because they did not.
The user and all related content has been deleted.
Somebody, somewhere has better skills as you have, more experience as you have, is smarter than you, has more friends as you do and can stay online longer. Just pray he's not out to get you.
"Unfortunately, your idea of a game or games without your 'dragonball z' progression have been done before and ultimately those games have died or have become extremely niche. I'm not saying that it can't be done, but with games that have little to no progression are found to be short lived."
Our top games right now are games like LoL, PUBG etc. that completely reset all progress at the end of each match and where everyone plays from the start of each match. Those matches are characteristically short lived so that things like whoever found the game first or who has more time to play don't generally come into play.
You can compare it to games that allow for progression for years if you want, turning factors like who found the game first and who plays more from non-factors into the primary factors, but the fact is they are completely different in nature.
People know that, that's why grind based games are dying.
They don't want games with "no effort" they want games where the effort put forth is refining their own skills and strategies as opposed to running fetch quests for XP.
You just get more hostile the more you get shredded. Admit it. I shut you down and tore your arguments to shred. Or continue living in denial.
The user and all related content has been deleted.
Somebody, somewhere has better skills as you have, more experience as you have, is smarter than you, has more friends as you do and can stay online longer. Just pray he's not out to get you.
Huh... PUBG's peak players online at once this month is more than twice the total number of copies of BDO sold. Seems like that's a real titan of the gaming industry there.
Again. Your assertions that non-grind based games are all "niche" are asinine, and false.
They are only niche within the MMO industry, and that is probably why the entire MMO industry is moving toward becoming a niche genre.
Grind based games are the true niche here. People are over them for the most part and the MMO industry will never recover until it learns that.
The user and all related content has been deleted.
Somebody, somewhere has better skills as you have, more experience as you have, is smarter than you, has more friends as you do and can stay online longer. Just pray he's not out to get you.
I want to walk into an open world environment and have the skills I earn by challenging myself as a player count for more than how many hundreds or thousands of hours I've run through rotations on boars and done fetch quests.
I want to face challenges and not tedium.
I think I represent a much larger market segment than you would assume.
The user and all related content has been deleted.
Somebody, somewhere has better skills as you have, more experience as you have, is smarter than you, has more friends as you do and can stay online longer. Just pray he's not out to get you.
LOL i think you should rethink that statement and take a MUCH closer look at gaming. Grind a niche,a thing of the past?LMAO
What do you think people are chasing in all of these games?>>>RANK,gold,Legend status,Silver,rank 50 rank 100,this is going on in all these games.
Geesh that Ninja dude was bragging about being first overall in wins in Fortnite,like who cares?If you are playing for fun and not grinding then why would you be worried about being FIRST ever?
Hearthstone is ALWAYS a grind,Blizzard encourages it by rewarding points for grinding and rank for grinding. Challenger,master,Diamond,Platinum this is ALL grinding ALL the time.
Content in rpg's,nobody cares about content,they are chasing the max level as fast as can be then GRIND the best gear.
The user and all related content has been deleted.
Somebody, somewhere has better skills as you have, more experience as you have, is smarter than you, has more friends as you do and can stay online longer. Just pray he's not out to get you.
These games sure do allow for new players to just walk right in and be competitive.
You entirely miss the point. Your assumption that I want to just "walk right in and be competitive" is a product of your own biases.
I like the process of becoming stronger in a skill based game. Learning the systems, refining my strategies, and eventually reaching a point where when someone does something I've reflexively trained myself to respond appropriately. Where I understand the intricacies of my build and have made them work for me.
But if you think that's how MMO's work you're deluding yourself.
In Starcraft I would face the same challenge over and over until I overcame it, then up the difficulty and do it again. In MMOs I run the same dungeon over and over and over and over and over at the same difficulty until I get the gear drops I want. Even if isn't challenging me a single bit.
In SMITE I would challenge myself to learn new roles so that if I got subbed into a different position on my team I am capable of playing them and so I understand how all the roles work together. In MMOs I fetch rat tails and deliver pies.
No, you want to be rewarded with the ability to kill people without using skill for taking part in tasks that do not require skill for a long period of time. A trained ape could do that given enough time in the day. Don't wrap your desire to have it easy in some crap about "earning" the right to beat someone. Bad vets should die to skilled newbs. Because you earn the right to be better by challenging yourself, not playing longer.
One of the problem with power gap is the among of stats developer put in and the type of the stats that they put .
At level 1 player only have 100 hp or so but at max level (for example 100) you get over 900.000 hp , pretty much ridiculous . More worst is you only have 10 dps at start and over 9000 dps at max .
I expect something like 100 hp start and 1000 hp max , 10 dps start and 100 dps max .
IDK why but the among of stats developers put in game is ridiculous .
Other problem is level requirement . It ask you to be level X to do X contents or use X items . For example i have a friend at max level who able to give me max level gears and help me with the max level contents but because of the level **** i can't join him , unless i buy max level account with the risk being ban .
It’s Just Like Practicing Guitar! The More You Do The Better You Get!
Except it’s not. But I can tell you what is.
When you play a lot of StarCraft or Halo and get good at the game, that is just like practicing guitar. Time investment pays off with more skill. But it’s more than just time investment. Someone who just sits there and plays “Hot Cross Buns” for 10,000 hours cannot just suddenly switch over to playing “Through The Fire and Flames”.
To advance they must push their envelope constantly and seek challenges worthy of their skill level. That is the way you master anything. As a StarCraft player advances through the leagues they learn more advanced strategies and face more powerful opponents who present a greater challenge and this is what pushes their skill level to its limits. They don’t 3 pool rush over and over and over with no adaptations or advancements to their strategy and suddenly become the best Star Craft player.
In Dragonball Z progression, running through the motions doing the easiest content available to you for 10,000 hours absolutely will enable you to beat someone who pushes their limits but has a much lower level or gearscore.
So skill based gameplay that must be mastered perfectly simulates practicing guitar. Dragonball Z progression perfectly simulates a participation trophy.
Leagues are rewards for winning and a measure of skill to a large degree. You can gain them. You can lose them.
You cannot run through the motions in these games for 100,000,000 hours and end up in the top league. But with enough natural talent and the right mindset you can achieve it far faster for seriously busting your butt.
You could run through the motions for 100,000,000 hours in WoW, ArcheAge, Runescape etc. and end up a max level player with maxed out gear. And you can only shave so much time off of that by getting good at grinding.
Reward for achievement vs. participation trophy. Learn the difference. It's important.
Its ok to have some kind of stat progression but does it have to be that big? Rather slow and small preventing such big gaps we have now.
Additionally think of all the resources that go into creating leveling content just to be rushed through by most of the gamers.
HP for example could be 100hp for a beginner and 150hp at max instead of 100hp > 10000hp. Also the weapon at start being 5-10+5% and 8-12+15%. (Instead of 150-200+75%) But the max player also has more different skills for certain situations.
This would lead to: 1. Endgame can be started earlier for non min-maxing groups. Less waste of resources for leveling content as people could take newbies into high lvl dungeons without being totally useless. 2. Players being more together, being more mixed inside zones (low lvl with good gear equal higher level with normal gear) With high lvl players doing that zone/dungeon to get the max. Items there (which should take time to get) while lower ones try to get the standard gear from the zone. 3. In PvP a player still has some advantage, but cannot one shot and also may lose if he doesn't pay attention, or if he is fighting against several lowbies but they are coordinated.
Its like having the stat gap of today's game within a e.g. 5 level range but now in total from starter to maxed. By either lower max level and longer time to lvl up. Or by making the stat increase much smaller. To compensate this system people still learn new skills may get a bit better weapons, armor. Get titles, maybe access to certain quest rows etc.
There are so many ways to reward people for lvl ups it doesn't have to be a big power increase all the time as long as the character gets stronger on long term.
The user and all related content has been deleted.
Somebody, somewhere has better skills as you have, more experience as you have, is smarter than you, has more friends as you do and can stay online longer. Just pray he's not out to get you.
The user and all related content has been deleted.
Somebody, somewhere has better skills as you have, more experience as you have, is smarter than you, has more friends as you do and can stay online longer. Just pray he's not out to get you.
@Mtibbs1989 - You have a severe case of confirmation bias thats apparently blinded you to every opinion that disagrees with yours. Plenty of people have been agreeing with me in this topic right here on MMORPG.com if you read back through the topic.
Even with this industry having run off a lot of people who think the way I do to FPS and MOBA titles there are plenty left around who can see the problem.
The user and all related content has been deleted.
Somebody, somewhere has better skills as you have, more experience as you have, is smarter than you, has more friends as you do and can stay online longer. Just pray he's not out to get you.
@Mtibbs1989 - You have a severe case of confirmation bias thats apparently blinded you to every opinion that disagrees with yours. Plenty of people have been agreeing with me in this topic right here on MMORPG.com if you read back through the topic.
Even with this industry having run off a lot of people who think the way I do to FPS and MOBA titles there are plenty left around who can see the problem.
I have just seen this post because I haven't gamed or spent much time on gaming for years. I completely agree with the OP you posted, Eldurian. The boredom of the levelling rat race and all the crazy attempts to address the obvious problems while ignoring the obvious answer has made my interest in games very low.
I have dreamed of a game world that's freed from the confines of the level structures. Where resources are directed at worldly interaction and AI that defies prediction, and where what's over the next hill can be different at any time, based on what is happening in a live world.
HP for example could be 100hp for a beginner and 150hp at max instead of 100hp > 10000hp.
As said earlier, TSW... 1500 HP at start, 2050 HP at the end (I think, it was more than a year ago when I last played... HP was around 2000, that's sure), and everything else was from gear. You could boost only the damage output (glass cannon), or go tanky (beyond 10k HP) with less damage, but usually mix and match was the best, like the good old 10/20/70 for solo.
And of course gear was in your hands as well, not behind grind or RNG drops. You could assemble any gear (or consumables) for yourself, with any stats your deck needed.
@Mtibbs1989 - The MMO genre is something that changes slowly given the years it takes to develop an MMO. But based on the fact AAA titles have nearly pulled out of the industry entirely these days and which kickstarter projects are getting the most funding I think I'm actually closer to the future target market of this industry than you are.
The user and all related content has been deleted.
Somebody, somewhere has better skills as you have, more experience as you have, is smarter than you, has more friends as you do and can stay online longer. Just pray he's not out to get you.
Well if what you mean is "grind, level progression, and gear progression" that gets reset every 20-60 minutes when the match ends then I'm fine with that.
If what you mean is more titles like current MMOs that reward you for completing menial tasks with permanent stat advantages are going to dominate all industries forever then I'd rate your grasp on reality as somewhere slightly below a flat-earther. MMOs are one of the last holdouts. That's not even opinion it's just objective fact.
Its ok to have some kind of stat progression but does it have to be that big? Rather slow and small preventing such big gaps we have now.
Additionally think of all the resources that go into creating leveling content just to be rushed through by most of the gamers. This would lead to: 1. Endgame can be started earlier for non min-maxing groups. Less waste of resources for leveling content as people could take newbies into high lvl dungeons without being totally useless. 2. Players being more together, being more mixed inside zones (low lvl with good gear equal higher level with normal gear) With high lvl players doing that zone/dungeon to get the max. Items there (which should take time to get) while lower ones try to get the standard gear from the zone. 3. In PvP a player still has some advantage, but cannot one shot and also may lose if he doesn't pay attention, or if he is fighting against several lowbies but they are coordinated.
There are so many ways to reward people for lvl ups it doesn't have to be a big power increase all the time as long as the character gets stronger on long term.
But we have face the true that they can't sell P2W shit if the design is balanced and friendly . They logic are make the gap bigger and throw the gamble in so they can milk more money .
10s of 21st century game industry are shady as hell and full of lies , making casinos for rich instead of create fun park for everyone .
Comments
There is no skill in starting a game much earlier than your opponents and beating everyone because they did not.
That is why LoL and PUBG thrive while MMOs die.
Somebody, somewhere has better skills as you have, more experience as you have, is smarter than you, has more friends as you do and can stay online longer. Just pray he's not out to get you.
"Unfortunately, your idea of a game or games without your 'dragonball z' progression have been done before and ultimately those games have died or have become extremely niche. I'm not saying that it can't be done, but with games that have little to no progression are found to be short lived."
Our top games right now are games like LoL, PUBG etc. that completely reset all progress at the end of each match and where everyone plays from the start of each match. Those matches are characteristically short lived so that things like whoever found the game first or who has more time to play don't generally come into play.
You can compare it to games that allow for progression for years if you want, turning factors like who found the game first and who plays more from non-factors into the primary factors, but the fact is they are completely different in nature.
People know that, that's why grind based games are dying.
They don't want games with "no effort" they want games where the effort put forth is refining their own skills and strategies as opposed to running fetch quests for XP.
You just get more hostile the more you get shredded. Admit it. I shut you down and tore your arguments to shred. Or continue living in denial.
Somebody, somewhere has better skills as you have, more experience as you have, is smarter than you, has more friends as you do and can stay online longer. Just pray he's not out to get you.
How many active players does PUBG have?
How many active players does LoL have?
Huh... PUBG's peak players online at once this month is more than twice the total number of copies of BDO sold. Seems like that's a real titan of the gaming industry there.
Again. Your assertions that non-grind based games are all "niche" are asinine, and false.
They are only niche within the MMO industry, and that is probably why the entire MMO industry is moving toward becoming a niche genre.
Grind based games are the true niche here. People are over them for the most part and the MMO industry will never recover until it learns that.
Somebody, somewhere has better skills as you have, more experience as you have, is smarter than you, has more friends as you do and can stay online longer. Just pray he's not out to get you.
I want to face challenges and not tedium.
I think I represent a much larger market segment than you would assume.
Somebody, somewhere has better skills as you have, more experience as you have, is smarter than you, has more friends as you do and can stay online longer. Just pray he's not out to get you.
Grind a niche,a thing of the past?LMAO
What do you think people are chasing in all of these games?>>>RANK,gold,Legend status,Silver,rank 50 rank 100,this is going on in all these games.
Geesh that Ninja dude was bragging about being first overall in wins in Fortnite,like who cares?If you are playing for fun and not grinding then why would you be worried about being FIRST ever?
Hearthstone is ALWAYS a grind,Blizzard encourages it by rewarding points for grinding and rank for grinding.
Challenger,master,Diamond,Platinum this is ALL grinding ALL the time.
Content in rpg's,nobody cares about content,they are chasing the max level as fast as can be then GRIND the best gear.
Here is your PUBG
^^^^ GRINDING.
Fortnite
GRINDING !!! It NEVER left the house.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
Somebody, somewhere has better skills as you have, more experience as you have, is smarter than you, has more friends as you do and can stay online longer. Just pray he's not out to get you.
I like the process of becoming stronger in a skill based game. Learning the systems, refining my strategies, and eventually reaching a point where when someone does something I've reflexively trained myself to respond appropriately. Where I understand the intricacies of my build and have made them work for me.
But if you think that's how MMO's work you're deluding yourself.
In Starcraft I would face the same challenge over and over until I overcame it, then up the difficulty and do it again. In MMOs I run the same dungeon over and over and over and over and over at the same difficulty until I get the gear drops I want. Even if isn't challenging me a single bit.
In SMITE I would challenge myself to learn new roles so that if I got subbed into a different position on my team I am capable of playing them and so I understand how all the roles work together. In MMOs I fetch rat tails and deliver pies.
No, you want to be rewarded with the ability to kill people without using skill for taking part in tasks that do not require skill for a long period of time. A trained ape could do that given enough time in the day. Don't wrap your desire to have it easy in some crap about "earning" the right to beat someone. Bad vets should die to skilled newbs. Because you earn the right to be better by challenging yourself, not playing longer.
At level 1 player only have 100 hp or so but at max level (for example 100) you get over 900.000 hp , pretty much ridiculous .
More worst is you only have 10 dps at start and over 9000 dps at max .
I expect something like 100 hp start and 1000 hp max , 10 dps start and 100 dps max .
IDK why but the among of stats developers put in game is ridiculous .
Other problem is level requirement . It ask you to be level X to do X contents or use X items .
For example i have a friend at max level who able to give me max level gears and help me with the max level contents but because of the level **** i can't join him , unless i buy max level account with the risk being ban .
Lol? Going up leagues is "grinding"?
Let me post this again since it doesn't seem to be sinking in:
Leagues are rewards for winning and a measure of skill to a large degree. You can gain them. You can lose them.
You cannot run through the motions in these games for 100,000,000 hours and end up in the top league. But with enough natural talent and the right mindset you can achieve it far faster for seriously busting your butt.
You could run through the motions for 100,000,000 hours in WoW, ArcheAge, Runescape etc. and end up a max level player with maxed out gear. And you can only shave so much time off of that by getting good at grinding.
Reward for achievement vs. participation trophy. Learn the difference. It's important.
Rather slow and small preventing such big gaps we have now.
Additionally think of all the resources that go into creating leveling content just to be rushed through by most of the gamers.
HP for example could be 100hp for a beginner and 150hp at max instead of 100hp > 10000hp.
Also the weapon at start being 5-10+5% and 8-12+15%. (Instead of 150-200+75%)
But the max player also has more different skills for certain situations.
This would lead to:
1. Endgame can be started earlier for non min-maxing groups. Less waste of resources for leveling content as people could take newbies into high lvl dungeons without being totally useless.
2. Players being more together, being more mixed inside zones (low lvl with good gear equal higher level with normal gear)
With high lvl players doing that zone/dungeon to get the max. Items there (which should take time to get) while lower ones try to get the standard gear from the zone.
3. In PvP a player still has some advantage, but cannot one shot and also may lose if he doesn't pay attention, or if he is fighting against several lowbies but they are coordinated.
Its like having the stat gap of today's game within a e.g. 5 level range but now in total from starter to maxed.
By either lower max level and longer time to lvl up. Or by making the stat increase much smaller.
To compensate this system people still learn new skills may get a bit better weapons, armor. Get titles, maybe access to certain quest rows etc.
There are so many ways to reward people for lvl ups it doesn't have to be a big power increase all the time as long as the character gets stronger on long term.
1997 Meridian 59 'til 2019 ESO
Waiting for Camelot Unchained & Pantheon
Somebody, somewhere has better skills as you have, more experience as you have, is smarter than you, has more friends as you do and can stay online longer. Just pray he's not out to get you.
Somebody, somewhere has better skills as you have, more experience as you have, is smarter than you, has more friends as you do and can stay online longer. Just pray he's not out to get you.
Even with this industry having run off a lot of people who think the way I do to FPS and MOBA titles there are plenty left around who can see the problem.
Somebody, somewhere has better skills as you have, more experience as you have, is smarter than you, has more friends as you do and can stay online longer. Just pray he's not out to get you.
I completely agree with the OP you posted, Eldurian.
The boredom of the levelling rat race and all the crazy attempts to address the obvious problems while ignoring the obvious answer has made my interest in games very low.
I have dreamed of a game world that's freed from the confines of the level structures. Where resources are directed at worldly interaction and AI that defies prediction, and where what's over the next hill can be different at any time, based on what is happening in a live world.
Once upon a time....
And of course gear was in your hands as well, not behind grind or RNG drops. You could assemble any gear (or consumables) for yourself, with any stats your deck needed.
Somebody, somewhere has better skills as you have, more experience as you have, is smarter than you, has more friends as you do and can stay online longer. Just pray he's not out to get you.
If what you mean is more titles like current MMOs that reward you for completing menial tasks with permanent stat advantages are going to dominate all industries forever then I'd rate your grasp on reality as somewhere slightly below a flat-earther. MMOs are one of the last holdouts. That's not even opinion it's just objective fact.
10s of 21st century game industry are shady as hell and full of lies , making casinos for rich instead of create fun park for everyone .