Can Empathy Save PvP MMORPGs? - General Columns

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Can Empathy Save PvP MMORPGs? - General Columns

While thinking about how the PVP MMORPG’s I’m anticipating (Camelot Unchained, Crowfall, Dual Universe, etc. etc. WHEW!) will retain players I wondered aloud; is empathy the missing ingredient in PVP player retention?

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Thupli

Well said!

Kajidourden

No, it's counter to the entire spirit of competition.

The onus is on the game designer to make sure there isn't some steamroll faction.

TEKK3N

It's the lack of PvE options who keep players away.
Most PvP players play MOBAs these days.
If you want a PvP game to succeed, it has to be PvE friendly...basically they have to make what I call a PvX game.

KOS PvP is a no, no.
Also in a MMORPG even if you like PvP sometimes you want some time to chill and do something else (AKA PvE) which most PvP games lack.

Theocritus

I just want a great PVE game period...im tired of all these games tacking on PVP to try and please that crowd.

Thupli

Theocritus said:

I just want a great PVE game period...im tired of all these games tacking on PVP to try and please that crowd.

Agreed. Lacking that right now.

waxmask

In SWG rebels lacked the proper tools for retaliation. Imp's came in with their one-army-buffoons with walkers three times your size. A proper placed trap would have handled that, as rebels do. Go in covert with maximum result. Rebels never got a chance. Then there should have been a senate like thing for diplomacy for factions within either sides that could war against one other also for recources/terrain. Zone control for the farms on different planets should have been a thing, smuggling should have matterd, Han Solo was not on either side until he took Obiwan's job, for lotsa cash I might add. No profiteering, pirating, scamming, making life harder for either rebels or imps.

Ah I still weep at what could have been, and even sadder nothing came even close to resemble that open free world feeling that SWG gave us. But thinking the community would sort them selfs on "empathy" feelings is a bit naive don't you think? Most will take the easy road for numerous of reasons. Hand the weak one tools to wipe the grin of the enemy's faces and you'll earn respect, then negotiations can start!

Kajidourden

Thupli said:

Theocritus said:

I just want a great PVE game period...im tired of all these games tacking on PVP to try and please that crowd.

Agreed. Lacking that right now.

There is a veritable sea of PvE games.  Sounds like it doesn't matter what comes out you'll still be in the same boat.

Areteo

I won't play any of these pvp-centered games, ever. The implementation of pvp over the past 10 years has killed MMOs for me.

Sovrath

Kajidourden said:

No, it's counter to the entire spirit of competition.



The onus is on the game designer to make sure there isn't some steamroll faction.

While I do think that some players should adopt more empathy and realize that "it's only a game", I agree that developers should design their games so that "underdogs" can have a chance to win if they outplay their opponents.

I seem to remember reading in a PC Magazine about some rebel offensive that took the imperials by surprise and it was a huge win for the rebels. Of course, they all had to work together.

Maybe that was the bigger issue in the game?

Sovrath

TEKK3N said:

It's the lack of PvE options who keep players away.
Most PvP players play MOBAs these days.
If you want a PvP game to succeed, it has to be PvE friendly...basically they have to make what I call a PvX game.

KOS PvP is a no, no.
Also in a MMORPG even if you like PvP sometimes you want some time to chill and do something else (AKA PvE) which most PvP games lack.

Sorry, but what I'm reading here is "it's the lack of pve options that keep 'me' away ..."

What about the pvp players who don't like pve?

I would consider myself a pvp player who has no interest in mobas. I'd prefer it in an mmorpg. "prefer".

However, there are so many toxic people infesting these games that it makes it "not worth it".

azarhal

Kajidourden said:

Thupli said:

Theocritus said:

I just want a great PVE game period...im tired of all these games tacking on PVP to try and please that crowd.

Agreed. Lacking that right now.

There is a veritable sea of PvE games.  Sounds like it doesn't matter what comes out you'll still be in the same boat.

How many great PvE only (without PvP) MMORPGs have been released in the last 10 years? 

I don't think Theocritus is wishing for another MMORPG that has both PvE and PvP going by his "tacking on" comment.

TEKK3N

Sovrath said:

TEKK3N said:

Sorry, but what I'm reading here is "it's the lack of pve options that keep 'me' away ..."

What about the pvp players who don't like pve?

You reading it right, it is my opinion.
But also it is sort of a fact too. Just look at the numbers.
The only PvP games that were successful were the ones that came out before MOBAs or the ones that incorporate some PvE.
Pure PvP MMORPGs all failed after MOBAs caught on.

I understand your point of view as well, ideally I would want everyone to have something to play.
But realistically a PvP MMORPG today needs PvE players to survive, there are not enough people like you to keep it afloat.
So with my comment I was putting myself in the developer shoes rather than the fan.

I would also like to point out that the amount of new MMORPGs with PvP focus in the making are disproportionate to what the real demand is.
If 7 out of 10 new MMORPGs focus on PvP but 7 out of 10 players prefer PvE, there is a problem.
4-5 years ago I would admit that the majority of MMORPG players wanted PvP, now with the MOBAs exodus is the other way round.

Sovrath

TEKK3N said:

Sovrath said:

TEKK3N said:

Sorry, but what I'm reading here is "it's the lack of pve options that keep 'me' away ..."

What about the pvp players who don't like pve?

You reading it right, it is my opinion.
But also it is sort of a fact too. Just look at the numbers.
The only PvP games that were successful were the ones that came out before MOBAs or the ones that incorporate some PvE.
Pure PvP MMORPGs all failed after MOBAs caught on.

I understand your point of view as well, ideally I would want everyone to have something to play.
But realistically a PvP MMORPG today needs PvE players to survive, there are not enough people like you to keep it afloat.
So with my comment I was putting myself in the developer shoes rather than the fan.

I would also like to point out that the amount of new MMORPGs with PvP focus in the making are disproportionate to what the real demand is.
If 7 out of 10 new MMORPGs focus on PvP but 7 out of 10 players prefer PvE, there is a problem.
4-5 years ago I would admit that the majority of MMORPG players wanted PvP, now with the MOBAs exodus is the other way round.

You would have to show proof other than anecdotal evidence as far as the games coming out now are disproportionate to demand.

What pvp mmo's were "not successful" after MOBAS caught on AND were released in polished shape?

And how are you defining successful?

knightsbayne

DMKano said:

Empathy is a feeling invoked by an individual - its also worth pointing out that there are many gamers on the autism spectrum for whom empathy is pretty much impossible to experience.

It is hard enough to get past the gamer memes about autism. You statement is pretty cold hearted and doesn't exactly do justice to the struggles that people on the spectrum have to go through to understand the world the same as neural typical people do. It's not that they are not empathetic or don't experience empathy, sympathy, or the same range of emotions. It's how neural typicals perceive how those on the spectrum process those emotions that is the misunderstanding. It's the neural typical person's fault for not understanding, not that the austic person's not empathetic. Please be a little more considerate when making these claims that only malign the gaming community towards autistic people.

Phaserlight

This is about game design, not empathy. If one side obliterates the other in a MMORPG leaving little recourse but to quit for good that's imbalanced design, not lack of empathy.
I don't feel bad about check mating a king in a game of chess: it's the point of the game. I can still play with empathy while pursuing the goals of the game as laid out by design.
/2c

berlight

Yep. That's it, empathy. The thing we are all care after kicking their ass.
My empathy is...directly related to how much I feel sorry for them.

TEKK3N

Sovrath said:

TEKK3N said:

You would have to show proof other than anecdotal evidence as far as the games coming out now are disproportionate to demand.

For that I need inside info which I don't have, but I do play MMORPGs since it's infancy, and since I assume that's your case too, you surely must have noticed that most MOBAs players are ex MMORPGs players.
WOW Battlegrounds are mini-MOBAs within a bigger game after all, and were really popular before MOBAs.
Nowadays not many people care about Battlegrounds anymore, why would they, they have entire games dedicated to it.

Considering it has been years since there was a new western MMORPG I can only use Asian games as an example of the fact there is not enough demand of PvP MMORPGs over here.
Most Asian PvP Focus games failed miserably in the west, bar few exceptions.
The few that survives rely on the PvE crowd, BDO is one of the rare example, Archeage to a certain degree was successful too as sandbox part of it appealead to the PvE crowd.
If you want to know the ones which failed take the MMORPG.com list and tick all Asian games which came out the last 5-7 years.
Have fun with it.

kruler

.extraClassAspect{-webkit-transform:scaleX(1.34)!important;}.extraClassCrop{-webkit-transform:scale(1.34)!important;}How most PvP games have faired over the years is akin to a snake eating its own tail, and why these games have faired not so well.

I am guilty of this, I join the new PvP game play it hard then community turns into a toxic sludge and some people play PvP games purely to be A-holes and the whole thing then withers away because once X amount of people leave, the PvP game collapses.

Thus PvP games have an accelerated churn and failure rate due to population collapse, but ironically its the same self serving community demanding that PvP be done in the same fashion over and over again, its an exercise in pure madness as the results are always the same.

The only ones that have faired over the years have had certain models that the PvP purest has rallied against with such venom, ironicly not once thinking why it is that the games they are screaming against have actually run for more than 4 years. (Yeah wasn't going to mention EvE by name but kinda have to as 1 example).

PvP needs to be supported by more than just itself in a MMORPG, this doesn't apply at all for battlegroundesque genre so there is a conclusion to be drawn right there, PVP MMORPG's don't work very well with present models, so remove the MMO tags and be left with battleground style games, OH HANG that's already happened.    

alkarionlog

its not empathy, its meaning, pvp for the sake of pvp is all nice and well, but for what reason? when there is not reason, people get tired of it pretty soon, and not its not a battleground, thing

SirBalin

System said:

Can Empathy Save PvP MMORPGs? - General Columns

While thinking about how the PVP MMORPG’s I’m anticipating (Camelot Unchained, Crowfall, Dual Universe, etc. etc. WHEW!) will retain players I wondered aloud; is empathy the missing ingredient in PVP player retention?

Read the full story here

I think the problem for PVP MMO's is that companies always try to make everyone happy and turn the PVP mmo into every other mmo, for the masses.  There are a lot of PVE titles and lots of PVX titles, but every company that talks about being a PVP mmo starts trying to make the PVE community happy as well and once they do that, the PVP players fall off.  Sucks, but it's the truth.  I think the best things companies could do would be to either make a game specifically for PVE or PVP, and stay away from that PVX mindset, or go back to old school and have multiple servers, some being PVP and some being PVE, but as soon as you cross the two, the PVP players are the ones that won't be happy.  (I'm talking about OWPVP here)

MadFrenchie

Torval said:

The article nails one of the core issues with full on PvP games. If social games are going to survive they will need to consider sportsmanship. That's how empathy is defined in a competitive environment. Another way to say that, for anyone stumbling over the empathy concept: Don't be a douche canoe. The post by Kaji is the perfect example of someone who expresses no empathy for someone else.

Can I be a douche dinghy instead?

knightsbayne

DMKano said:

knightsbayne said:

DMKano said:

Empathy is a feeling invoked by an individual - its also worth pointing out that there are many gamers on the autism spectrum for whom empathy is pretty much impossible to experience.

It is hard enough to get past the gamer memes about autism. You statement is pretty cold hearted and doesn't exactly do justice to the struggles that people on the spectrum have to go through to understand the world the same as neural typical people do. It's not that they are not empathetic or don't experience empathy, sympathy, or the same range of emotions. It's how neural typicals perceive how those on the spectrum process those emotions that is the misunderstanding. It's the neural typical person's fault for not understanding, not that the austic person's not empathetic. Please be a little more considerate when making these claims that only malign the gaming community towards autistic people.

Its a spectrum disorder - so its a spectrum of how deeply some can feel empathy too.

There are many autistic people that can feel deep empathy - like feeling someone elses deep distreds. This has been proven in many studies, however where most strugle is with "shallow empathy", or feeling surface emotions in others.

This is also why social cues are so hard for people with autism because they require "shallow empathy" skills.

Of course autsitic people feel - and they process and express feelings in a different way.

However the challenges with shallow empathy are real, it would be doing a great disservice to many people who struggle with social cues and shallow empathy to dismiss it - and not recognize that their struggle is real 

I think your understanding of ASD is incomplete. But given the vast range of the spectrum, I shouldn't expect you to understand unless you're a specialist in the field of behavioral therapy, an autistic parent, or on the spectrum yourself. But I will say that your new comment is much more empathetic towards autistic gamers than "for whom empathy is pretty much impossible to experience."

I am genuinely glad you tried.

Sovrath

TEKK3N said:

Sovrath said:

TEKK3N said:

You would have to show proof other than anecdotal evidence as far as the games coming out now are disproportionate to demand.

For that I need inside info which I don't have, but I do play MMORPGs since it's infancy, and since I assume that's your case too, you surely must have noticed that most MOBAs players are ex MMORPGs players.
WOW Battlegrounds are mini-MOBAs within a bigger game after all, and were really popular before MOBAs.
Nowadays not many people care about Battlegrounds anymore, why would they, they have entire games dedicated to it.

Considering it has been years since there was a new western MMORPG I can only use Asian games as an example of the fact there is not enough demand of PvP MMORPGs over here.
Most Asian PvP Focus games failed miserably in the west, bar few exceptions.
The few that survives rely on the PvE crowd, BDO is one of the rare example, Archeage to a certain degree was successful too as sandbox part of it appealead to the PvE crowd.
If you want to know the ones which failed take the MMORPG.com list and tick all Asian games which came out the last 5-7 years.
Have fun with it.

Well that's the thing, one would have to use Asian games as a metric because there haven't been a lot of western games that have been pvp focused. And games that were released "finished and polished".

I don't play MOBAS because they are more "game" and I'm more interested in a world as well as pvp that shapes that world. Though, I will admit that I really loved Warhammer Online's battlegrounds. A game that also released buggy and a disappointment to some Warhammer fans.

But did Black Desert and Archeage not do "that well" (though I would argue they have been around for several years now so they must be doing well enough) because of the pvp or because of other reasons, especially their monetization?

I think you will have your answer, or at least a slice of your answer, in Camelot Unchained. Provided it releases and releases in good shape.

TEKK3N

Sovrath said:

TEKK3N said:

But did Black Desert and Archeage not do "that well" (though I would argue they have been around for several years now so they must be doing well enough) because of the pvp or because of other reasons, especially their monetization?

I think you will have your answer, or at least a slice of your answer, in Camelot Unchained. Provided it releases and releases in good shape.

My opinion is that both game did well in spite of the monetization model, particularly Archeage.
In fact, as I was an active forum dweller in both games, most complaints were about the monetization model and the cash shop.

What both games have in common is that while their focus was PvP, you could totally play PvE only if you wanted to, mainly because the sandbox part of the game attracted that kind of audience.
Those two games are what I call PvX games, which is, in my opinion, the only way a PvP game can survive nowadays.

I am willing to bet that Pantheon will do much better than Camelot Unchained, particularly in the long run.
Of course only time will tell, that's just my feeling, though I hope it will be a success and I plan to buy and play both of them.

FlyByKnight

"Empathy" isn't the answer. It's a f#$%ing video game not an in-person or real world interaction.

Game mechanics that Crowfall is implementing is the big step in the right direction. A PVP "campaign" needs to have a beginning and end and opportunity to take the step back and reset. There needs to be a true balance between the polarizing forces with the goal of bringing balance between opposition. This is also another option Crowfall is bringing to the table

The funny part is as crappy as Trion/XL Games and Archeage is, the above is why "Fresh Start" servers keep being a thing. People aren't looking for a fresh start they're looking for a "chance" to be a dominant force on another server after being conquered and domesticated on their own servers. Difference being Trion has 0 ethics and moral obligation to their player base.