It's funny, but my online gaming started out on LAN. A closed group of individuals that you basically knew. Being an ass meant being an ass to someone you knew. They literally could reach across the desk and smack you.
Eventually the internet came about. Larger audience, but still a small community. Servers could only support so many simultaneous connections. So while you didn't personally know the other players, you knew them because the community was small. If you were an ass, everyone knew it. There was no re-rerolling a new toon to escape your defamation. You either left the server completely or had to deal with the repercussions of your actions.
But technology grew fast and the ability to have millions of people across multiple servers together in the same game made anonymity an almost guarantee. You could be an ass because the likelihood that you'd cross paths again were nil. Even on your own server you were constantly being whisked away to other servers, so if you were an ass, you could escape the wrath of one server rather easily.
What I miss about the old days is the gathering to start a LAN party with friends. The gathering at South Shore for Drunken Friday Nights with the rival Alliance guild. We shared a vent channel and talked smack as we tried to conquer the town. Those days are long gone.
Empathy? Maybe back in LAN days or the early internet. But today? Fat chance.
PUBG is the type of game that is popular these days and it's about as brutal as it can get.
Im really wondering if Iselin hit on something that has been taken for granted and overlooked .. But its all very true , The Social/Server structure of DAOC did instill a better community overall , we really started to see the slide into the cesspool we know now with LFD LFR, Server jumping /Faction jumping .. Name changing .. and more im certain im missing atm .. All these things are tools for people to act like Aholes ...
Maybe something Devs should look more closely at as a stepping stone ..
IDK where it comes from. I'm just wondering along with everyone else.
But I do know that this week there's an active thread in the ESO forums from someone saying that he whispered the player who is currently Emperor in a Cyrodiil campaign and offered to pay him several gold crafting tempers (worth ~ 100k gold) if he would let him kill him so he could get the emperor killer achievement and the title and unique dye that go along with that. He thinks the emperor was selfish because he wouldn't go along with it... he's serious.
Tea-bagging (repeatedly squatting over a corpse's face) a fallen enemy is very common in Cyrodiil and the current ESO community is divided on whether it's an asshole thing to do or just funny.
Just a couple of examples from this week alone.
Of course it stems from those features you mentioned. One of the largest boons was the time sink of leveling combined with the inability to change a player name.
By level 20, most players had invested enough time into a character with a permanent name that they didn't want to start over just to pick a new name. Therefore, if they wanted to continue to participate in group content reliably, they needed to put forth at least a little effort to be amicable to fellow players. That's completely gone now, and other players are merely window-dressing for 90% of the game. It's what happens when solo progression rates are competitive with group-based progression rates. No need for other players, so get them the fuck outta my way.
People cooperate when there's a need. When there isn't a need or competing can reliably achieve the same result, most folks on the internet won't put their faith in strangers. If you want them to take that chance, you gotta give them a reason.
Only a good pvp/pk system can save a pvp in MMO. (Lineage pvp/pk/clan war system is perfect) And stop trying to make MMOs work for people that don't like MMOs. They are already much better off on MOBAs and Battle Royales.
Empathy belongs in Bake Off not in PvP games, we are not baking cakes. Sportsmen like behaviour is what we should try to foster. Jumping up and down on an opponents corpse (in childish games that allow you to bunny hop) is the sort or silliness that should be called out.
You play to win, not to empathise.
one would try to argue that empathy is part of sportsmanship
There is an argument for that, Tim has made it in a couple of posts, but here is my take.
Sportsmanship is an ideal of polite behaviour coming from the days of amateurs and hopefully but less frequently upheld by professionals. It is about fairness and respect, but that's as much about the game as the players. You will see people saying "gg" and so on in chat, that's sporting, even more so if you can do it when you have lost.
For me if he had said sportsmanship from the start I would be there 100%, but empathy has far wider connotations, some of which are way too care bear for PvP.
If you are expecting a hug after you take me down, you are in the wrong game.
Why we are talking of this, it is not sporting to buy your way to a win, that is not a fair playing field, I wouldn't mind us seeing some more of that in PvP either.
Empathy? if you have hurt feelings from playing in a PVP game then honestly you need help. Games are not reality, if a game is affecting your emotional stability then you really have to sit back and discuss that with someone who can help you.
It is pretty normal to have hurt feelings upon losing a game--doesn't matter if it's a video game or any other type of game.
Gee, when I lose a game, my first thought is, "What can I do better next time?"
Feelings hurt? No, that's NOT normal. Disappointed? Sure, a normal response as long as it motivates one to improve.
No, it's counter to the entire spirit of competition.
The onus is on the game designer to make sure there isn't some steamroll faction.
Well said! What could be improved is the sportsmanship of a lot of players. That or systems that automatically change negative comments or gestures into positive ones.
No, it's counter to the entire spirit of competition.
The onus is on the game designer to make sure there isn't some steamroll faction.
Well said! What could be improved is the sportsmanship of a lot of players. That or systems that automatically change negative comments or gestures into positive ones.
Players would find ways around this and should enforcing changes to peoples behaviour be what gaming is about? You can foster sportsmanship without being draconian about it. But I agree we really need a more sporting attitude to PvP, indeed I could use more myself.
I keep seeing sports as a reference for lack of empathy. Since this is a mmo forum I may need to clarify. If you have ever played a sport, or watched a sport, or talked to people that do (and im not counting e-sports) and you aren’t seeing the empathy victors frequently share for their conquered opponenets then you will not understand what this column was about. If cage fighters show it Id hope hobbiests can learn to too.
Interestingly enough, the game Ive seen the best sportsmanship in is EVE, where far more often opponents say "good fight" to the other side, even if it really wasn't.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
When a professional sports figure leaves a bad team for a good team and a chance at the championship, is that a matter of "empathy"? When the new, stacked, great team destroys the competition, I don't believe "empathy" is the problem here. I think every individual should be working for their own best results, and the game should be designed to self-balance around that.
Same is true in an MMO. I think the fault is the game design not taking these factors into account. Allowing people to switch sides, server-hop, etc, with no self-balancing or correcting mechanism, is the problem, not empathy.
Regarding harassment, I generally don't talk in games to avoid problems, but I believe sometimes people confuse smack-talk with harassment. In a competitive environment we need a mix of a thick skin and empathy to make it work. People should take small digs within the confines of the game (keep it on the court), but also set appropriate boundaries and keep it polite outside.
Comments
Eventually the internet came about. Larger audience, but still a small community. Servers could only support so many simultaneous connections. So while you didn't personally know the other players, you knew them because the community was small. If you were an ass, everyone knew it. There was no re-rerolling a new toon to escape your defamation. You either left the server completely or had to deal with the repercussions of your actions.
But technology grew fast and the ability to have millions of people across multiple servers together in the same game made anonymity an almost guarantee. You could be an ass because the likelihood that you'd cross paths again were nil. Even on your own server you were constantly being whisked away to other servers, so if you were an ass, you could escape the wrath of one server rather easily.
What I miss about the old days is the gathering to start a LAN party with friends. The gathering at South Shore for Drunken Friday Nights with the rival Alliance guild. We shared a vent channel and talked smack as we tried to conquer the town. Those days are long gone.
Empathy? Maybe back in LAN days or the early internet. But today? Fat chance.
PUBG is the type of game that is popular these days and it's about as brutal as it can get.
By level 20, most players had invested enough time into a character with a permanent name that they didn't want to start over just to pick a new name. Therefore, if they wanted to continue to participate in group content reliably, they needed to put forth at least a little effort to be amicable to fellow players. That's completely gone now, and other players are merely window-dressing for 90% of the game. It's what happens when solo progression rates are competitive with group-based progression rates. No need for other players, so get them the fuck outta my way.
People cooperate when there's a need. When there isn't a need or competing can reliably achieve the same result, most folks on the internet won't put their faith in strangers. If you want them to take that chance, you gotta give them a reason.
Sportsmanship is an ideal of polite behaviour coming from the days of amateurs and hopefully but less frequently upheld by professionals. It is about fairness and respect, but that's as much about the game as the players. You will see people saying "gg" and so on in chat, that's sporting, even more so if you can do it when you have lost.
For me if he had said sportsmanship from the start I would be there 100%, but empathy has far wider connotations, some of which are way too care bear for PvP.
If you are expecting a hug after you take me down, you are in the wrong game.
Why we are talking of this, it is not sporting to buy your way to a win, that is not a fair playing field, I wouldn't mind us seeing some more of that in PvP either.
Feelings hurt? No, that's NOT normal. Disappointed? Sure, a normal response as long as it motivates one to improve.
~~ postlarval ~~
Well said! What could be improved is the sportsmanship of a lot of players. That or systems that automatically change negative comments or gestures into positive ones.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Same is true in an MMO. I think the fault is the game design not taking these factors into account. Allowing people to switch sides, server-hop, etc, with no self-balancing or correcting mechanism, is the problem, not empathy.
Regarding harassment, I generally don't talk in games to avoid problems, but I believe sometimes people confuse smack-talk with harassment. In a competitive environment we need a mix of a thick skin and empathy to make it work. People should take small digs within the confines of the game (keep it on the court), but also set appropriate boundaries and keep it polite outside.