Howdy, Stranger!
It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!
Quick Links
When does it become too much?
Shinami
Member UncommonPosts: 825
I can understand the standard form of entering games.
P2P = Buy the game + expansions, pay the sub, enjoy... have fun glam cash shop.
F2P = Download the game, Cash Shop/Pay for everything.
B2P = Buy the game, have fun in cash shops...
What I do not understand or fathom is how far Betas have gotten in asking for money.
Its common for F2P Beta games to launch founders packs and some of these games get close to $100 to get early access to a Beta and then to have as many premium items given to a player to kickstart a player through a game, that is still in development and still unstable and unsure to its own future.
Sure, we can compare it to investment in Wall Street and Securities.
Except both are extremely and utterly regulated and many protections exist for investors.
There are virtually no levels of protections outside of basic case law when it comes to video games and most of the time the money given to a publisher leaves the nation to China, Russia, South Korea, Japan, etc....
Then I read threads where people are willing to spend anywhere from $100 - $800 on a gaming package for a single game in development and it makes me wonder not for the developer who does it, but for the people who feel insane enough to do it.
"Its their money, what should I care about?"
There is plenty to care about..
When developers find out something that works to hook the masses, they proceed to conform to the model that gives them the most money for the least amount of risk and lowest grade of quality. Then as a person who followed the advice of others and "not care if its not my money" now I am forced to deal with the same business model because enough people got suckered into it in order for the industry to make it mainstream and common place.
Meaning that now I have to get screwed in the same way another person elected to get screwed to play certain games. Where Insanity becomes reality and reality is a mixed bag of tricks played upon us by whatever means exists to siphon our money.
When do you draw the line that some new game and its model might feel like a trap down the road?
I've been in games where players have told me they had spent over a thousand to get started. I've also been in games where three months into it, there are players who have spent as many as five figures. Should such a thing be even allowed or tolerated.
Note: I am not blaming the player. Anyone with sufficient will and enough money would do the same. I am casting blame on the system and the fact that such a system is allowed to exist.
What does it take to convince you that a game is just too much through its model and its has gone over the edge? When does it become too much to the point it feels less like a game and more like a scam in your eyes?
P2P = Buy the game + expansions, pay the sub, enjoy... have fun glam cash shop.
F2P = Download the game, Cash Shop/Pay for everything.
B2P = Buy the game, have fun in cash shops...
What I do not understand or fathom is how far Betas have gotten in asking for money.
Its common for F2P Beta games to launch founders packs and some of these games get close to $100 to get early access to a Beta and then to have as many premium items given to a player to kickstart a player through a game, that is still in development and still unstable and unsure to its own future.
Sure, we can compare it to investment in Wall Street and Securities.
Except both are extremely and utterly regulated and many protections exist for investors.
There are virtually no levels of protections outside of basic case law when it comes to video games and most of the time the money given to a publisher leaves the nation to China, Russia, South Korea, Japan, etc....
Then I read threads where people are willing to spend anywhere from $100 - $800 on a gaming package for a single game in development and it makes me wonder not for the developer who does it, but for the people who feel insane enough to do it.
"Its their money, what should I care about?"
There is plenty to care about..
When developers find out something that works to hook the masses, they proceed to conform to the model that gives them the most money for the least amount of risk and lowest grade of quality. Then as a person who followed the advice of others and "not care if its not my money" now I am forced to deal with the same business model because enough people got suckered into it in order for the industry to make it mainstream and common place.
Meaning that now I have to get screwed in the same way another person elected to get screwed to play certain games. Where Insanity becomes reality and reality is a mixed bag of tricks played upon us by whatever means exists to siphon our money.
When do you draw the line that some new game and its model might feel like a trap down the road?
I've been in games where players have told me they had spent over a thousand to get started. I've also been in games where three months into it, there are players who have spent as many as five figures. Should such a thing be even allowed or tolerated.
Note: I am not blaming the player. Anyone with sufficient will and enough money would do the same. I am casting blame on the system and the fact that such a system is allowed to exist.
What does it take to convince you that a game is just too much through its model and its has gone over the edge? When does it become too much to the point it feels less like a game and more like a scam in your eyes?
Comments
I'm probably an outlier as I play the biggest scam game there is . . . Project entropia . . . And I love it.
You can see my sci-fi/WW2 book recommendations.
https://pragmaticpricing.com/2010/04/21/price-segmentation-introduction-and-id-for-discount/
Early game devs weren't business majors and missed this course, (or slept thru it) but these days game studios are run by MBAs who well understand these concepts.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
When EA brought in a new CEO who's primary background was big name chemical and ice cream companies you know he is not being brought in to develop better games. He was bought in update their business practices with those from the rest of the business community. He is on record crowing about making every designer think of cost before they submit ideas about anything to do with the game and saying "we will make games your mum can play".
Look up how the loot boxes developed at EA, there is another lesson in what has happened as gaming principles are replaced be business principles.
One argument I supported in the past was "But if they did not bring in good business practice they would fail." And many did, not having any eye to business is crazy. But they have gone way, way beyond that, this is not about ensuring survival, or even ensuring a healthy profit. It is about maximising every penny they can milk from fans.
Indeed I think Indie MMO fans are being treated like football fans, its a lifestyle of giving to an ideal you love but will they ever win? Buy the t-shirt and cheer on the team.
I agree with the rational, but the effect on MMO gaming has been horrendous in every area apart from sales, revenue and profit.
This is what I have to say about this:
In order for it to be profitable above a $$14.95 sub.
The purchases of F2P need to be equal to $14.95 EVERY MONTH.
Free for some looking for a sub par experience at the "heavy cost" of the purchasers.
This is shady business practice.... Plan and simple !!!!!!
People have money to waste. People are bored. You put the two together and you have profit.
Some people spend money on a gym membership and live at the gym. Same principle.
Is playing video games or living at the gym any less of an addiction than drugs, gambling, or alcohol? What about bible thumpers that give to the church each week?
All bored people with money to waste and a entity willing to relieve them of it.
We're all just ants in an ant farm if you look at it. Everything we do is give and take. We're just usually oblivious to it all. Go to work to make money so that you pay the bills that allow you to live so that you can go to work to and make money. Everything is a complete circle. Hamster wheel. Carrot on a stick.
http://midastouch.goldgenie.com/wp-content/uploads/history_071.jpg
At the time I remember thinking who would pay for such a thing.
After seeing gamers today toss what I feel are large, and sometimes fantastic amounts of money at games that are only promises, I'm thinking perhaps far more than I ever would have believed.
I'm sure the business people who run most games have themselves been quite surprised at what gamers have been willing to pay for and at times I'm sure even at Blizzard there have been plenty of heated conversations about leaving money on the table.
They even figured out f2p isn't really the best way to go. Starting off with at least a small initial price brings in some cash from nearly everyone and helps to separate out the total freeloaders who will never pay any money, hence being of little value as customers.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Welcome to the boards!
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
Naturally it only works if the consumer buys into paying for beta testing. If people stopped doing that, they couldn't sell it.
Epic Music: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAigCvelkhQ&list=PLo9FRw1AkDuQLEz7Gvvaz3ideB2NpFtT1
https://archive.org/details/softwarelibrary_msdos?&sort=-downloads&page=1
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you playing an MMORPG?"
If you don't want that model you have three options.
1. Pay into innovative ideas being worked on by smaller companies so they have the funds to make a decent MMO.
2. Wait until those games have released and then pay in.
3. Quit MMOs for a long time because it will be a damn long time before any of these companies will get the funds to make an MMO on their own, or a AAA title decides to take a risk again.
So personally I'm willing to throw quite a lot of my entertainment budget at option 1. Because I would rather gamble on being entertained by a game that might just be what I want, then pay into a game that is guaranteed to not be what I want.
Maybe I am a little jealous, wishing I could enjoy at least one like I used to
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
Agreed. I'm still a bit judicious with how much I put in. I've probably put in like $100-150 over about 4-5 years on the game. Not bad.
You can see my sci-fi/WW2 book recommendations.
MAGA
Not what you think you are entitled to.. but what you explicitly paid for.
In the past you had people who were truly fans of the game who signed on to the early betas with the intention of actually testing and trying to break the game. You had to give reports on what you were finding and send in bug reports for the bugs you found. If you did not, you weren't invited to the next phase of beta.
Now you have people who pay to be able to see the game early. They aren't reporting bugs -- they are cataloging and getting ready to exploit bugs they find on release. While they provide some early cash to a game, they are far less useful for the development of said game.
In the past when I betaed (what would be called alphas these days), I found the best communities of people around, and the devs joked with the people etc. It was a tremendously different environment than release.
At this point , rather selling idea , better to sell tool to make people's dream come true .
Something like rental server but focus on creating MMO .
I more interest on how people will create things when give them tools . Like TES for example , oblivion and skyrim have tons of strange mods but they are fun .
But once one game company starts making money at something, most of the others will follow.
The days of paid pre-alpha and "donation" rewards are here to stay I think.
EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests
- £50 for a new game.....but I have to really want it.
- £20 for a game I wanted when new, but couldn't justify then
- £10 for everything else
If it's got a cash shop, things get murky. If it's a single player cash shop, I'll assess the impact of the shop. If there is virtually no impact, then I'll stick with my limits above. If there is a decent impact, I won't play it.For MMOs, as a general rule of thumb I avoid everything with a cash shop. Not only does it generally mean the game has been designed poorly (for my tastes....) but it usually means the quality of the community is going to be rubbish. I was playing both LotRO and SW:TOR when they switched to F2P and the community declined overnight, in terms of quality, and all future development following the conversion was of a much lower quality than pre-f2p.
Part of this is my style of gameplay. I'm endgame focused and very social, so having a great community is a big part of my reason for playing MMOs. F2P just kills that feeling.
On the subject of kickstarters, alphas, betas and early access......judge each as they come. Crowd-sourcing is just donating money to the idea of a game. I find that concept incomprehensible, so have never done it. Alphas, betas and early access......I view these as pretty awful ideas and almost always avoid them, but you got to look at what you get. Never pay money for something that doesn't exist, that's stupid consumerism, but if the alpha, beta or early access game has enough there that you think it'll be fun and worth the money then why not!