Lootboxes are gambling (Official Statement)

Slapshot1188

Eldurian said:

Slapshot1188 said:

There is no right to sell gambling boxes to children.  Just like there is no right to have sex with a minor and get them drunk.  It is the company's responsibility to insure their product is not sold to a child. Just like a bar is responsible for selling alcohol to someone under age, even if they say they are 21.  Just like an adult would get in trouble for having sex with a minor, even if the minor said they were 18.  Self-Certification does not absolve a company of this.

Most of us understand that. Someday, when you have more space from your own childhood you will probably understand too.

I worked in senior care for several years before coming back to school to pursue another career field. I will be 30 this November so cut the "kiddo" bullshit. 

Anyway, can you answer me two questions.

1. Define what you consider gambling to be in the context of online gaming. Lets set aside lootboxes for a moment because the issue is "Don't let the childruns gamble!!!"

2. Describe a solution to me in which the online companies can prevent children from gambling that does not restrict the rights of adults.

One step I would make immediately is to remove game cards.
I would remove the ability to use gift cards or anything not tied to an ID
The next step is that I would require a legal ID be kept on file and verified. 

Im not an expert in identity verification but I think that should probably work.  It would still be up to the company to make sure it did.  But beyond that, it would still need to be regulated the way other gambling is.  Odds should be posted and verified. Interstate and online gambling have some of the strictest regulations.  They just overturned the ban on sports betting in the US. I’d guess that we will see online wagering (legal) spring up soon.  Follow whatever they have to implement.

Eldurian

It's highly important what you want banned because here is a huge problem. Chance is rampant in video games.

The Netherlands and Belgium laws apply only to games in which the loot from the boxes can be resold. But that obviously isn't the scope of the conversation we're discussing here because the vast majority of games don't allow the sale of in-game assets. Titles mentioned like ESO certainly do not.

So if we are expanding this to include titles that don't allow the resale of in-game assets, that absolutely does include things like any online trading card game that sells booster packs. Then there are also games like Runescape and EVE where you can risk items you've purchased with real money in full loot PvP.

How extreme should these laws be? Should it be illegal for a child to play Magic The Gathering Online, EVE, or Runescape with their parent? How many hoops are we going to have to jump through to prove we're an adult just to play an MMO?

So "THINK OF THE CHILLUNS!!!!" or "LOOTBOXES ARE GAMBLING" quickly expands into an issue where you really have to ask, how much control do you want the government to have over your gaming?

Eldurian

MadFrenchie said:

You tried to oversimplify that into generalizing the odds, which is silly.  Fact is, there are folks who develop gambling skills.  Show me the first pro lootbox opener who makes his/her living opening lootboxes for their winnings and I'll kiss your ass.

You're ignoring the fact that of the games that allow you to resell assets, the vast majority are Steam games that just allow you to apply that credit toward other Steam purchases.

But in the one game I can think of where you can make money back out that relies heavily on chance absolutely does have people who play it professionally. 

Asm0deus

Eldurian said:

It's highly important what you want banned because here is a huge problem. Chance is rampant in video games.

The Netherlands and Belgium laws apply only to games in which the loot from the boxes can be resold. But that obviously isn't the scope of the conversation we're discussing here because the vast majority of games don't allow the sale of in-game assets. Titles mentioned like ESO certainly do not.

So if we are expanding this to include titles that don't allow the resale of in-game assets, that absolutely does include things like any online trading card game that sells booster packs. Then there are also games like Runescape and EVE where you can risk items you've purchased with real money in full loot PvP.

How extreme should these laws be? Should it be illegal for a child to play Magic The Gathering Online, EVE, or Runescape with their parent? How many hoops are we going to have to jump through to prove we're an adult just to play an MMO?

So "THINK OF THE CHILLUNS!!!!" or "LOOTBOXES ARE GAMBLING" quickly expands into an issue where you really have to ask, how much control do you want the government to have over your gaming?

Again you getting confused with the minutia and losing site of the forest by staring at a tree....a first step must be taken, hell in fact several first steps must be taken then you think about refining the laws....

Right now the first step.. for the usa at least is getting traditional online gambling laws updated to a satisfactory level then they need to look into gambling in online games.

What they need to look at is the practices game companies use and they need to decide what is considered predatory and thus doesn't belong in our online video games.

You on the other hand want the answers, want them all now RIGHT NOW! while waving your hands in the air and doing your darnedest to obfuscate the issue.

Keeping on eye on Belgium and looking at what the EU does and how companies respond is a good step to garner more insight on the issues.

Certainly running around with your backside on fire spouting nonsense, just to be right, or from fear of govmint control isn't helpful past providing comedic relief.

Really what needs to be done is people and law makers need to look at issue of predatory marketing targeted at children and maybe look there for some answers as it a quite similar issue.

http://epsl.asu.edu/ceru/Articles/CERU-0410-247-OWI.pdf

Children stand at the center of an unprecedented maelstrom of marketing that undermines all aspects of their lives. The landscape of advertising and promoting to kids today is unlike the television commercials you and I experienced as children. It is enhanced by technology, honed by child psychologists, and brought to us by billions of dollars.

https://www.ftc.gov/sites/default/files/documents/public_statements/advertising-kids-and-ftc-regulatory-retrospective-advises-present/040802adstokids.pdf

laserit

Eldurian said:

laserit said:

Eldurian said:

laserit said:

A major if not majority amount of the people that you think should have some self control are children.

Bullcrap. Absolute falsehoods. No data to back it. I've called you on it every time, at this point you're just willfully lying.



The majority of MMO gamers are adults.

The majority of online gamers are adults.

The majority of ALL gamers are adults as the above graph shows.

Stop lying.

A major percentage (second highest group) of your graph are children.

I said:

"A major if not majority amount of the people that you think should have some self control are children."

reading comprehension

Bullshit nothing

That graph is every game from lego racers and angry birds to Leisure Suit Larry and Postal 2. Do you honestly think that when you

A. Exclude offline titles.
B. Exclude anyone who doesn't buy lootboxes.

that the ratio of children to adults is going to go up?

I honestly believe that predatory monetization should be kept away from children.

If children are a small insignificant fraction of loot box sales maybe the companies involved can provide that data.

If they have no idea than I'd say we have a problem.

Maybe one day if you ever hold your own son or daughter you would most likely understand where I'm coming from.

Some are so far gone they could give a fuck about their own kids never mind anyone else's.

Cryomatrix

Eldurian said:

MadFrenchie said:

You tried to oversimplify that into generalizing the odds, which is silly.  Fact is, there are folks who develop gambling skills.  Show me the first pro lootbox opener who makes his/her living opening lootboxes for their winnings and I'll kiss your ass.

You're ignoring the fact that of the games that allow you to resell assets, the vast majority are Steam games that just allow you to apply that credit toward other Steam purchases.

But in the one game I can think of where you can make money back out that relies heavily on chance absolutely does have people who play it professionally. 

Entropia is awesome, it is gambling and it is fun.

Eldurian

Asm0deus said:

Right now the first step.. for the usa at least is getting traditional online gambling laws updated to a satisfactory level then they need to look into gambling in online games.

Sounds like they are moving the right direction if they just overturned the ban on sports betting. Deregulation.

For me the answer is already there and obvious. Things are fine the way they are.

If they want to make people show their ID to buy gaming gift cards for games over a certain ESRB rating that's fine, provided that isn't already happening. And if they want to make lootboxes a certain ESRB rating that is fine as well given that ESRB ratings don't prevent an adult from buying their child a game.

But the minute they start making regulations about what I can and can't buy in-game or what games I can and can't let my child play we're going to have some damn issues.

Thankfully, I'm relatively sure this is going to get decided on the state level instead of the national one. So blue states can continue operating as babysitters for their residents and I will comfortably live somewhere that doesn't tell me when it is and isn't ok to breathe.

Eldurian

Cryomatrix said:

Eldurian said:

MadFrenchie said:

You tried to oversimplify that into generalizing the odds, which is silly.  Fact is, there are folks who develop gambling skills.  Show me the first pro lootbox opener who makes his/her living opening lootboxes for their winnings and I'll kiss your ass.

You're ignoring the fact that of the games that allow you to resell assets, the vast majority are Steam games that just allow you to apply that credit toward other Steam purchases.

But in the one game I can think of where you can make money back out that relies heavily on chance absolutely does have people who play it professionally. 

Entropia is awesome, it is gambling and it is fun.

I found it too chance based for my tastes but I support your right to enjoy it.

Eldurian

laserit said:

Maybe one day if you ever hold your own son or daughter you would most likely understand where I'm coming from.

You can set up your computer so that you can see what is on the screen for other computers on the same network. This is the way my highschool computer lab ensured we weren't looking at inappropriate things, this is what I would do if I decide I can't trust my child on their computer.

Honestly though I'm not too concerned. Children spend their money on irresponsible things sometimes. If it became a bad pattern I would intercede but I doubt I will even tell them not to do it. It's like letting your kid take a sip of your beer. If they are anything like me, they aren't going to like the taste of RNG. So it seems like a good life lesson to let them learn.

Historically most cultures treat people as adults once they reach sexual maturity, and the fact we do not in the US is the direct cause of youth rebellion. We're programmed to rebel when people try to control us. 

My grandfather supported his mother and family as a fisherman when his died dad at 16. My fiancé rented her own home at 17. And if we do things well we won't be strangling our children's potential by still treating them like children at those ages.

Asm0deus

Eldurian said:

Asm0deus said:

Right now the first step.. for the usa at least is getting traditional online gambling laws updated to a satisfactory level then they need to look into gambling in online games.

Sounds like they are moving the right direction if they just overturned the ban on sports betting. Deregulation.

Actually it's not deregulation that is happening, they simply overturned a ban. There will more than likely be stiff regulations to follow.

Eldurian said:

For me the answer is already there and obvious. Things are fine the way they are.

Obviously not everyone is fine with things the way they are, live and let live only works until you or a group is hurting someone else and thereby hurting their let live.

Eldurian said:

If they want to make people show their ID to buy gaming gift cards for games over a certain ESRB rating that's fine, provided that isn't already happening. And if they want to make lootboxes a certain ESRB rating that is fine as well given that ESRB ratings don't prevent an adult from buying their child a game.

That's the problem though...ESRB rating have worked for awhile for some things but obviously isn't cutting it in this case, I mean even you concurred lootboxes were gambling so...therefore it needs looking into and regulation need to be made about what is allowed in game or if gambling in game should even be allowed period!

Would you let your kid walk into a casino give him your CC and say have it it son? IF not why allow so in game...hell should I be allowed to bring my 9 year old to strip club for a few drinks with dad?

Should I be all prissy cause there laws that say I can't and could be prosecuted if I did? This is no different.

Eldurian said:

But the minute they start making regulations about what I can and can't buy in-game or what games I can and can't let my child play we're going to have some damn issues.

You are already being told what you can and can't buy in game....it's just that it's the companies doing the telling and solely for the maximizing of the profit margin.

Eldurian said:

Thankfully, I'm relatively sure this is going to get decided on the state level instead of the national one. So blue states can continue operating as babysitters for their residents and I will comfortably live somewhere that doesn't tell me when it is and isn't ok to breathe.

Ah lastly we get to the route of the problem.... you're not really thinking of the problem and issues for yourself...your just spouting the pro state, anti federal line you've been spoon fed cause we all know federal regulation always are bad bad bad but state ones are heaven sent and the bad federal people are out to get us but every statesman and every state law is pure as driven snow and so incorruptible.....lol

Ungood

Asm0deus said:

Ungood said:

Asm0deus said:

Doesn't matter if some stuff like cosmetics is sold straight up if they hide the best/most rare/sought after item in lootboxes only.  

I want you to read this a few times over.

No.. really.. read what you said.

"if they hide the best/most rare/sought after item in lootboxes only"

Now, think of this.. something can only be "rare" if there is a small chance to get it, ergo, if they just sold the item in the store, it would no longer be "Most rare" item.

So, the problem is not the game, it is the players who want a "rare" item.. and yet somehow want this to exist without RNG.

When you figure that out... call me.. we can market that to a game company as a alternative to Lootboxes.

Not very quick on the uptake are ya? 

Something can be rare and be only available via game play IN GAME and still have RNG without there ever being lootboxes...oh wait your argument just went down the drain......

The reason for wanting certain items is irrelevant, the issues is people do want certain items for various XYZ reason which are all valid, but alas those items can only be acquired via a lootbox via real money predatory gambling mechanics.

Lets take YOUR reasoning a step further....all issues players have is because they even WANT to play video games so maybe the should stop being DUMB get some self control and quit video games altogether!!!!!

No,. you just showed how naive my opponents are.

We all understand that a game company needs to make money, and thus what is sold needs to be desirable, if the best most sought after items are purely in-game, how pray tell do you expect the company to generate income?

Now, I am sure you are stumped at this point. Perhaps throw out some cry about a sub fee or what have you, but, lets be real, nowhere near enough people pay into that system for it to be a viable alternative.

It also shows me that my opponents are fully supportive of escalating the addicting nature of games that suck peoples life away farming content for loot, so this is not about addiction, or protecting anyone, this is about a personal hate for lootboxes, but why the hate?

I think the hate stems from the fact that Lootboxes are an effective means to get people to spend money they otherwise would not.

And that is their own fault, if more people simply spent money on games to keep them funded they would not need to find ways to entice people to spend even more money.

So really, this problem stems from a segment of the game community that thinks they can magically make a game and keep it running for free.

Welcome to reality, and until people start voting for what they want, they will be stuck with what other people are willing to accept.

... and I have no issues with games, I play them for the enjoyment of them. Saying we should quit games as a means of self control is like saying we should give up electricity as a means of self control, it's a foolish notion.

But you have one point, if someone is dealing with game addiction, they should seek help.

Eldurian

Asm0deus said:

Would you let your kid walk into a casino give him your CC and say have it it son? IF not why allow so in game...

Nope. I wouldn't hand them my credit card (largely because I don't have one) in a casino but I might hand them their allowance cash and tell them they can use it to gamble if they want to, so they can learn an important life lesson about the house always winning. That's of course if it were legal, which I feel it should be.

I also wouldn't hand them my credit card and tell them to go crazy in-game, but if they want to try lootboxes I might let them hand me over the cash for the lootboxes and then get them some with my debit card so they can learn an important life lesson about RNG sucking.

Asm0deus said:

Eldurian said:

Thankfully, I'm relatively sure this is going to get decided on the state level instead of the national one. So blue states can continue operating as babysitters for their residents and I will comfortably live somewhere that doesn't tell me when it is and isn't ok to breathe.

Ah lastly we get to the route of the problem.... you're not really thinking of the problem and issues for yourself...your just spouting the pro state, anti federal line you've been spoon fed cause we all know federal regulation always are bad bad bad but state ones are heaven sent and the bad federal people are out to get us but every statesman and every state law is pure as driven snow and so incorruptible.....lol

You apparently missed the point of federalism in history class. Let me recap it for you. The states wanted to govern themselves and not be told how to live by the federal government. As such the federal government was given extremely limited powers.

The states aren't infallible and sacrosanct, but there are 50 of them. So you can live in the kind of place you want to live, I can live in the kind of place I want to live. This argument is a great illustration of why. You and I will never be happy living in a place with the same laws because you feel the need to use government as a tool to control other people, and I believe that if there is no victim there should be no crime.

Ungood

laserit said:

Eldurian said:

laserit said:

Eldurian said:

laserit said:

A major if not majority amount of the people that you think should have some self control are children.

Bullcrap. Absolute falsehoods. No data to back it. I've called you on it every time, at this point you're just willfully lying.



The majority of MMO gamers are adults.

The majority of online gamers are adults.

The majority of ALL gamers are adults as the above graph shows.

Stop lying.

A major percentage (second highest group) of your graph are children.

I said:

"A major if not majority amount of the people that you think should have some self control are children."

reading comprehension

Bullshit nothing

That graph is every game from lego racers and angry birds to Leisure Suit Larry and Postal 2. Do you honestly think that when you

A. Exclude offline titles.
B. Exclude anyone who doesn't buy lootboxes.

that the ratio of children to adults is going to go up?

I honestly believe that predatory monetization should be kept away from children.

If children are a small insignificant fraction of loot box sales maybe the companies involved can provide that data.

If they have no idea than I'd say we have a problem.

Maybe one day if you ever hold your own son or daughter you would most likely understand where I'm coming from.

Some are so far gone they could give a fuck about their own kids never mind anyone else's.

Again.. their Data is that Every Account is made by Legal Adult, and under the control of a Legal Adult, as only a legal adult has the authority to sign an EULA. if at any time they become informed that a minor has created an account without the expressed approval of their legal parent or guardian by law they have to shut down the account.

It's not a Game Company's responsibly to raise other peoples children, and, chances are, if someone is not raising their children well, there is a good chance their are other companies that are preying upon them as well, as they might not be the brightest bulbs in the lamp.

Eldurian

Asm0deus said:

Obviously not everyone is fine with things the way they are, live and let live only works until you or a group is hurting someone else and thereby hurting their let live.

I would fully agree with that statement, but you apparently seem to think that giving you the right to enter into a consensual arrangement where you may willfully choose to engage in self destructive habits is hurting them.

By that logic it should be illegal to sell ice cream, cereal, or vegan cookbooks. I highly disagree that that enabling people to make their own stupid decisions is hurting their let live.

Asm0deus

Ungood said:

Asm0deus said:

Ungood said:

Asm0deus said:

Doesn't matter if some stuff like cosmetics is sold straight up if they hide the best/most rare/sought after item in lootboxes only.  

I want you to read this a few times over.

No.. really.. read what you said.

"if they hide the best/most rare/sought after item in lootboxes only"

Now, think of this.. something can only be "rare" if there is a small chance to get it, ergo, if they just sold the item in the store, it would no longer be "Most rare" item.

So, the problem is not the game, it is the players who want a "rare" item.. and yet somehow want this to exist without RNG.

When you figure that out... call me.. we can market that to a game company as a alternative to Lootboxes.

Not very quick on the uptake are ya? 

Something can be rare and be only available via game play IN GAME and still have RNG without there ever being lootboxes...oh wait your argument just went down the drain......

The reason for wanting certain items is irrelevant, the issues is people do want certain items for various XYZ reason which are all valid, but alas those items can only be acquired via a lootbox via real money predatory gambling mechanics.

Lets take YOUR reasoning a step further....all issues players have is because they even WANT to play video games so maybe the should stop being DUMB get some self control and quit video games altogether!!!!!

No,. you just showed how naive my opponents are.

We all understand that a game company needs to make money, and thus what is sold needs to be desirable, if the best most sought after items are purely in-game, how pray tell do you expect the company to generate income?

Now, I am sure you are stumped at this point. Perhaps throw out some cry about a sub fee or what have you, but, lets be real, nowhere near enough people pay into that system for it to be a viable alternative.

It also shows me that my opponents are fully supportive of escalating the addicting nature of games that suck peoples life away farming content for loot, so this is not about addiction, or protecting anyone, this is about a personal hate for lootboxes, but why the hate?

I think the hate stems from the fact that Lootboxes are an effective means to get people to spend money they otherwise would not.

And that is their own fault, if more people simply spent money on games to keep them funded they would not need to find ways to entice people to spend even more money.

So really, this problem stems from a segment of the game community that thinks they can magically make a game and keep it running for free.

Welcome to reality, and until people start voting for what they want, they will be stuck with what other people are willing to accept.

... and I have no issues with games, I play them for the enjoyment of them. Saying we should quit games as a means of self control is like saying we should give up electricity as a means of self control, it's a foolish notion.

But you have one point, if someone is dealing with game addiction, they should seek help.

Hogwash.  Your strawman here doesn't... cut it.

I have never said anywhere games should be free and that companies shouldn't be making money.  Games made plenty of money before the advent of f2p, cash shop and lastly lootboxes...they just didn't make as much money aka their profit margins were smaller.  That's why the sub model started dying ......companies saw there was much more phat cash to be made with cash shops and then lootboxes.

Hate is a strong word, I simply believe gambling doesn't belong in our video games.

Games can find other effective means to earn my cash, namely better content, or straight up selling what they currently have in lootbox for a flat our fair price in their cash shops.  We already do so by buying DLC etc etc.  They have plenty of ways to remain "funded", solvent and profitable.

As for the rest of the hogwash you wrote..it's simply not worth replying to.

craftseeker

@Slapshot1188 The problem with requiring a legal ID to be kept on file is that may not be possible, either because there is no unique identifier, or because collecting and storing that information is, itself, illegal. Collecting credit card numbers for payment may be the best alternative.

Asm0deus

Eldurian said:

Asm0deus said:

Would you let your kid walk into a casino give him your CC and say have it it son? IF not why allow so in game...

Nope. I wouldn't hand them my credit card (largely because I don't have one) in a casino but I might hand them their allowance cash and tell them they can use it to gamble if they want to, so they can learn an important life lesson about the house always winning. That's of course if it were legal, which I feel it should be.

I also wouldn't hand them my credit card and tell them to go crazy in-game, but if they want to try lootboxes I might let them hand me over the cash for the lootboxes and then get them some with my debit card so they can learn an important life lesson about RNG sucking.

Don't really have much to say to this as you said plenty yourself for others to make up their own minds about your ideas....lol

Eldurian said:

Asm0deus said:

Eldurian said:

Thankfully, I'm relatively sure this is going to get decided on the state level instead of the national one. So blue states can continue operating as babysitters for their residents and I will comfortably live somewhere that doesn't tell me when it is and isn't ok to breathe.

Ah lastly we get to the route of the problem.... you're not really thinking of the problem and issues for yourself...your just spouting the pro state, anti federal line you've been spoon fed cause we all know federal regulation always are bad bad bad but state ones are heaven sent and the bad federal people are out to get us but every statesman and every state law is pure as driven snow and so incorruptible.....lol

You apparently missed the point of federalism in history class. Let me recap it for you. The states wanted to govern themselves and not be told how to live by the federal government. As such the federal government was given extremely limited powers.

The states aren't infallible and sacrosanct, but there are 50 of them. So you can live in the kind of place you want to live, I can live in the kind of place I want to live. This argument is a great illustration of why. You and I will never be happy living in a place with the same laws because you feel the need to use government as a tool to control other people, and I believe that if there is no victim there should be no crime.

Ah but you keep on about nanny states which is a ridiculous concept and mostly political bible thumping along with a nice strawman shoved in for good measure.

The real difference between you and me is I think laws should be pretty much the same for everyone and I also feel that just because one person closes his eyes to a crime and claims no foul, thus there can be no victims, there should be consequences if there actually is a crime and there actually is a victim.

The good ole boys attitude of yonder days needs to die out already...it's far too similar of the old boy attitude of I have the right to beat my son, it'll toughen him up and help prepare him for life as a real man...that I can be proud of...

Eldurian

Asm0deus said:

I have never said anywhere games should be free and that companies shouldn't be making money.  Games made plenty of money before the advent of f2p, cash shop and lastly lootboxes...they just didn't make as much money aka their profit margins were smaller.  That's why the sub model started dying ......companies saw there was much more phat cash to be made with cash shops and then lootboxes.

You're studiously ignoring that our expectations for an MMO are very different than they were when a 15$/mo sub cut it, that 15$ back then was worth more than 15$ is now, and that the market for MMOs isn't what it used to be right now.

Do you honestly believe the profit margins on MMOs right now are higher than they used to be? If so why are there so few AAA MMOs in development?

If not, then when they lose the profit from lootboxes, what are you expecting to happen?

Asm0deus

Eldurian said:

Asm0deus said:

I have never said anywhere games should be free and that companies shouldn't be making money.  Games made plenty of money before the advent of f2p, cash shop and lastly lootboxes...they just didn't make as much money aka their profit margins were smaller.  That's why the sub model started dying ......companies saw there was much more phat cash to be made with cash shops and then lootboxes.

You're studiously ignoring that our expectations for an MMO are very different than they were when a 15$/mo sub cut it, that 15$ back then was worth more than 15$ is now, and that the market for MMOs isn't what it used to be right now.

Do you honestly believe the profit margins on MMOs right now are higher than they used to be? If so why are there so few AAA MMOs in development?

If not, then when they lose the profit from lootboxes, what are you expecting to happen?

I answered that already go back and read my previous post to Ungood. 

Will some mmos fail probably...do I care? Not at all. Some mmo deserve to fail if their whole business model depends solely on lootboxes, we might see games actually worth playing instead of the generic lootbox mmo.

Games like Entropia Universe need to die in a fire and not only that they should be audited by the IRS and so should everyone that plays it and similar type games.

The genre is going stale because there too many suits looking for lootbox profit margins...but that's neither here nor there.

It's a disingenuous argument that companies will just go flop because of lootboxes or lackof.

Anyways tis late so....

Eldurian

Asm0deus said:

I answered that already go back and read my previous post to Ungood. 

Will some mmos fail probably...do I care? Not at all. Some mmo deserve to fail if their whole business model depends solely on lootboxes, we might see games actually worth playing instead of the generic lootbox mmo.

Games like Entropia Universe need to die in a fire and not only that they should be audited by the IRS and so should everyone that plays it and similar type games.

The genre is going stale because there too many suits looking for lootbox profit margins...but that's neither here nor there.

It's a disingenuous argument that companies will just go flop because of lootboxes or lackof.

Anyways tis late so....

So generous of you to recognize the victimhood of those enjoying games you don't like and do them the favor of trying to shut down something they enjoy. A true saint you are. Or victim. I forgot which card you're trying to play here.

I didn't say companies will just go flop due to lootboxes alone, I asked a question:

"When they lose the profit from lootboxes, what are you expecting to happen?"

Some companies may go flop. Some won't for sure. But for those who don't flop one of two things is going to happen:

1. They will find another way to get their money from consumers to make up for lost profits.
2. They will make cuts to keep afloat. Less new content etc.

I can guarantee you one thing that will not happen as a result though. More higher quality content. If companies were willing to take the kind of risks it takes to develop a great MMO with higher quality content, they would have done so already.

Eldurian

Asm0deus said:

The real difference between you and me is I think laws should be pretty much the same for everyone and I also feel that just because one person closes his eyes to a crime and claims no foul, thus there can be no victims, there should be consequences if there actually is a crime and there actually is a victim. 

No, the difference between me and you is that you feel you are qualified to claim victimhood of others when they are content with the transaction that they have made, and I am content to let people live their own lives and make their own decisions.

You feel you know better than others how they should run their own lives. I feel that whether I do or not, that isn't my place.

The nanny state isn't a myth at all. You are living breathing proof.

You say:

"Games like Entropia Universe need to die in a fire and not only that they should be audited by the IRS and so should everyone that plays it and similar type games."

@Cryomatrix - As a player of Entropia Universe do you feel like a victim? What are your thoughts on this statement.

Because from my perspective it looks like you're telling him you know better how he should run his life. Looks to me, like you're trying to play his nanny.

Eldurian

You know the more I analyze that statement.

"Games like Entropia Universe need to die in a fire and not only that they should be audited by the IRS and so should everyone that plays it and similar type games."

Of course there is total disregard for the developers who would also lose their job. But also, you're attacking the playerbase. So who exactly are you thinking of when you make a statement like that? Who benefits from attacking an entire game and it's playerbase?

Or are you just holding true to your namesake and showing your lawful-evil side? Cares about the law, but doesn't give half a crap about people. 

Because I truly see no evidence of compassion or a good person behind a statement like that. I see hatred. I see vitriol. I see selfishness. But nothing good in you. You honestly strike me as a horrible, controlling, nasty individual.

Cryomatrix

@Asm0deus

You say:

Games like Entropia Universe need to die in a fire and not only that they should be audited by the IRS and so should everyone that plays it and similar type games.

---> Thus I should be audited because I willfully play a slot machine that is wrapped up in a shitty MMO. I know what I'm getting into, I'm an adult and the game was explained to me as a slot machine masquerading as an MMO. I went into it, thinking that I could use my brain and make money off of it. The reality is that, I could, it is just not worth my time to do that, so I just use it to get my gambling fix off. 

It is a really good way to gamble too, because I can spend hours playing and i may only lose like $10-40 bucks based on what I'm doing or I may gain a few bucks. Either way, it is entertainment for me. Currently, i'm making $10 a month from it from my land deeds . 

And no, I don't feel victimized. I am the type of person that I take responsibility for my actions. 

Also FYI: I do a bit of fantasy football fanduel and what not, but I never go to casinos as I hate casinos, I don't play the lottery as it is a fool's errand. I just like to put money on shit because it makes it more exciting. 

To get on topic:

Loot boxes are a bit predatory but it really is no different than collecting baseball cards and magic the gathering crap. You buy packs (i.e. loot boxes) hoping for a rare cards (i.e. rare item). That shit has been going on for ages. 

Also, the US gov't makes like 70-80 billion a year off the state and us lottery, so apparently, no one really cares. Also, if you want to get on your high horse about something, there are a few things as predatory and fucked up as health insurance in America. Now that is absolute bullshit of the highest order, not some stupid fucking loot box shit. Sorry for being salty, i got called into work at 2-3 AM

Cryomatrix

cheyane

Sports betting should give governments some good revenue in taxes.

Slapshot1188

Ungood said:

laserit said:

Eldurian said:

laserit said:

Eldurian said:

laserit said:

A major if not majority amount of the people that you think should have some self control are children.

Bullcrap. Absolute falsehoods. No data to back it. I've called you on it every time, at this point you're just willfully lying.



The majority of MMO gamers are adults.

The majority of online gamers are adults.

The majority of ALL gamers are adults as the above graph shows.

Stop lying.

A major percentage (second highest group) of your graph are children.

I said:

"A major if not majority amount of the people that you think should have some self control are children."

reading comprehension

Bullshit nothing

That graph is every game from lego racers and angry birds to Leisure Suit Larry and Postal 2. Do you honestly think that when you

A. Exclude offline titles.
B. Exclude anyone who doesn't buy lootboxes.

that the ratio of children to adults is going to go up?

I honestly believe that predatory monetization should be kept away from children.

If children are a small insignificant fraction of loot box sales maybe the companies involved can provide that data.

If they have no idea than I'd say we have a problem.

Maybe one day if you ever hold your own son or daughter you would most likely understand where I'm coming from.

Some are so far gone they could give a fuck about their own kids never mind anyone else's.

Again.. their Data is that Every Account is made by Legal Adult, and under the control of a Legal Adult, as only a legal adult has the authority to sign an EULA. if at any time they become informed that a minor has created an account without the expressed approval of their legal parent or guardian by law they have to shut down the account.

It's not a Game Company's responsibly to raise other peoples children, and, chances are, if someone is not raising their children well, there is a good chance their are other companies that are preying upon them as well, as they might not be the brightest bulbs in the lamp.

Your legal theory is wrong. This falls under the same concept of checking an ID at a bar or having sex with a minor. Having a minor self-certify they are of age does not allow you to serve them. If the minor goes to great lengths such as providing a realistic false ID then the minor could theoretically be held accountable, but simply typing in a random birthday does not pass that test.

What is interesting is that if a company is advised that they have entered into a contract with a minor they need to end it and also refund all purchases no matter what their refund policy.  This is whether they knowingly served a minor or not.

Also, if industry stats show that 28% of players are under the age of 18 (from Eldurian)then there is likely an easy case to be made that those companies knew that at least a portion of their own players were under age.   That could be argued as willingly providing an illegal service to a minor.   After all, they are the ones that setup their rules about not needing an ID and accepting game cards. 

TLDR:  If lootboxes are recognized as gambling the onus is on the companies.  Right now their EULA is fine because nobody cares.  Once lootboxes are gambling, then it’s a whole new world.