This debate is along the same lines of MMO Vs MMORPG, with each
feeling their point of view is incontestable regardless of the polarized
extremity.
BDO doesn't really fit the extremes of Themepark Vs Sandbox well.
Rather, it is a mix of some elements of both missing some elements of both. It can't be neatly placed in one category or the other in an absolute sense.
No matter how many sites state that BDO is a sandbox MMO, it still wont change the fact that it isnt
If its a FACT then prove it. All I see are peoples saying its not a sandbox because THEY don't think it is.
I am posting sources from mmo websites and media outlets that cover the genre and they are saying its a Sandbox game.
Here is Meta Critic. The #1 review site on the internet.
Nope - -media and review sites are opinions not facts
Here is how facts work - you start with a definion:
Define sandbox game:
"A sandbox is a style of game in which minimal character limitations are placed on the gamer, allowing the gamer to roam and change a virtual world at will."
Does BDO fit that definion?
It doesnt.
So BDO is not a sandbox game.
Simple, isnt it?
Nope, its just more of what you think. LOL
/sadcringe
Instead of refuting the content posted, you resort to a weak ad-hominem of my thinking being at fault.
Typical.
You have to prove my sources wrong. You posted a definition with no source to that definition and asked me does it fit? LOL
Thats not how it works, you have to explain how Black Desert Online does not fit your definition.
Again, more of what you think.
The arguments posed have yet to be refuted, just because a few magazines whatever call something such is more a matter of opinion than fact,
Then it comes down to whos opinions carry more credibility. Sorry but I am going with the media outlets over a few posters who says the game is not a sandbox because they don't think it is.
And to that poster who keeps talking about STEAM I will now for the first time post STEAMS description.
Scroll down , you see ..
Black Desert Online is a sandbox, living-world MMORPG. Experience fast-paced, action-packed combat, hunt monsters and huge bosses, fight with friends in a guild to siege nodes and region castles, train your life skills such as fishing, trading, crafting, cooking, and much more!
Interesting how you convenietlty tryed to avoid that .. But i digress .. Steam has no credibiltiy
Silly isnt , weve gone full circle now... lmfao.. stop it
You are too late dude. I got so tired of you saying STEAM I had decided to actually go to STEAM and find the description my self. Thats the first thing you should have done.
My work is done here.
Very good so you decided to go there and cherry pick a very small aprt of its description to try and make a point ...
you failed ... Why bother using the info given when you can just use the tiny bit that fits your weak narrative...
Official Twitter for #BlackDesert Online NA/EU, the next-gen action based, sandbox MMORPG.
Even the official twitter BDO that is owned by black desert itself calls it a sandbox MMO
Unless the creators of BDO are wrong. Then that means I will always link to this thread when I talk about Destiny and many other games are actually MMOs. And when anyone posts "but the company doesn't call it an MMO!" I'll link to this thread and show people that the people in this thread said the company was wrong about their own game being a sandbox MMO. Which means other companies can be wrong about not calling their game an MMO.
And here again the official company that owns their twitter page
So is the company of BDO wrong to call it a sandbox? If so, that opens the door that companies that own games like Destiny and many others could be wrong to not call their game an MMO. So can I now officially say Destiny is an MMO and link to this thread about companies being wrong?
Cause that is the biggest counter argument of some people saying Destiny isn't an MMO, cause the company doesn't call it that. But if BDO themselves calls their game a sandbox and people are saying its wrong...well that means Destiny could easily be wrong as well
My Skyrim, Fallout 4, Starbound and WoW + other game mods at MODDB:
Official Twitter for #BlackDesert Online NA/EU, the next-gen action based, sandbox MMORPG.
Even the official twitter BDO that is owned by black desert itself calls it a sandbox MMO
Unless the creators of BDO are wrong. Then that means I will always link to this thread when I talk about Destiny and many other games are actually MMOs. And when anyone posts "but the company doesn't call it an MMO!" I'll link to this thread and show people that the people in this thread said the company was wrong about their own game being a sandbox MMO. Which means other companies can be wrong about not calling their game an MMO.
You are rediculous dude. Companies call their products whatever best suits their desired perception of their product, and unless there is some legal reason they cannot, such as misrepresenting dangerous ingredients, they will always describe it in the way that produces the most money. Means nothing and buyer beware, you are the sheep they market this way to.
Official Twitter for #BlackDesert Online NA/EU, the next-gen action based, sandbox MMORPG.
Even the official twitter BDO that is owned by black desert itself calls it a sandbox MMO
Unless the creators of BDO are wrong. Then that means I will always link to this thread when I talk about Destiny and many other games are actually MMOs. And when anyone posts "but the company doesn't call it an MMO!" I'll link to this thread and show people that the people in this thread said the company was wrong about their own game being a sandbox MMO. Which means other companies can be wrong about not calling their game an MMO.
You are rediculous dude. Companies call their products whatever best suits their desired perception of their product, and unless there is some legal reason they cannot, such as misrepresenting dangerous ingredients, they will always describe it in the way that produces the most money. Means nothing and buyer beware, you are the sheep they market this way to.
Yes, that then means I can call Destiny an MMO and link to this thread whenever someone says it isn't because the company doesn't call it an MMO.
My Skyrim, Fallout 4, Starbound and WoW + other game mods at MODDB:
Official Twitter for #BlackDesert Online NA/EU, the next-gen action based, sandbox MMORPG.
Even the official twitter BDO that is owned by black desert itself calls it a sandbox MMO
Unless the creators of BDO are wrong. Then that means I will always link to this thread when I talk about Destiny and many other games are actually MMOs. And when anyone posts "but the company doesn't call it an MMO!" I'll link to this thread and show people that the people in this thread said the company was wrong about their own game being a sandbox MMO. Which means other companies can be wrong about not calling their game an MMO.
You are rediculous dude. Companies call their products whatever best suits their desired perception of their product, and unless there is some legal reason they cannot, such as misrepresenting dangerous ingredients, they will always describe it in the way that produces the most money. Means nothing and buyer beware, you are the sheep they market this way to.
Yes, that then means I can call Destiny an MMO and link to this thread whenever someone says it isn't because the company doesn't call it an MMO.
lmfao ,, it could not be they are both wrong .... BDO is not a Sandbox
And Destiny is Not an MMO ...
Now ATVI is Correct in there Labeling and Kakoa is not .. But that would be impossible huh
To everyone who thinks that Black Desert Online is a sandbox, I ask, have you ever played in a real sandbox before? You know, a real sandbox with real sand that sandbox MMOs were named after.
I sure have and I can assure you that in the sandbox I played in, there was no one telling me that I could only play in one part of the sandbox for the first few minutes, and another part for the next few minutes and going back to the first part of the sandbox once you progressed to the next part was pointless. No, I played in whatever part of the sandbox I wanted whether I just started or had been playing for a few hours.
Also, no one told me how to play in my sandbox. No one told me what classes my characters in my sandbox could be. No one told me that I have to be a certain thing because of my gender.
Sandboxes are about going wherever you want and doing whatever you want, whenever you want.
So no, Black Desert Online is not a sandbox. There are far too many limitations.
Now, I disagree with the notion that sandboxes can't have developer created content in them, I just believe that how the player handles that content is the meaningful part.
In my opinion, we won't get a true MMORPG pve sandbox that involves combat for a long while. The technology just isn't there yet. Crafting ones without combat work because the players are the developers, but for any mmo sandbox with combat, the amount of landmass required for players to not step on each others toes at every corner and for the players to actually feel like they have an impact on the world, is absolutely enormous and probably won't be possible until dynamically created open ended content is possible. I'm talking dynamically created villages and dungeons, with villagers all having their own issues and needs.
Official Twitter for #BlackDesert Online NA/EU, the next-gen action based, sandbox MMORPG.
Even the official twitter BDO that is owned by black desert itself calls it a sandbox MMO
Unless the creators of BDO are wrong. Then that means I will always link to this thread when I talk about Destiny and many other games are actually MMOs. And when anyone posts "but the company doesn't call it an MMO!" I'll link to this thread and show people that the people in this thread said the company was wrong about their own game being a sandbox MMO. Which means other companies can be wrong about not calling their game an MMO.
You are rediculous dude. Companies call their products whatever best suits their desired perception of their product, and unless there is some legal reason they cannot, such as misrepresenting dangerous ingredients, they will always describe it in the way that produces the most money. Means nothing and buyer beware, you are the sheep they market this way to.
Yes, that then means I can call Destiny an MMO and link to this thread whenever someone says it isn't because the company doesn't call it an MMO.
Your logic fails, point is that what a company calls its product often but not always has no bearing on what it actually is. It also has nothing to do with what YOU call something. You can be just as wrong or right as the company, or say the opposite as the company and be wrong either way.
Official Twitter for #BlackDesert Online NA/EU, the next-gen action based, sandbox MMORPG.
Even the official twitter BDO that is owned by black desert itself calls it a sandbox MMO
Unless the creators of BDO are wrong. Then that means I will always link to this thread when I talk about Destiny and many other games are actually MMOs. And when anyone posts "but the company doesn't call it an MMO!" I'll link to this thread and show people that the people in this thread said the company was wrong about their own game being a sandbox MMO. Which means other companies can be wrong about not calling their game an MMO.
You are rediculous dude. Companies call their products whatever best suits their desired perception of their product, and unless there is some legal reason they cannot, such as misrepresenting dangerous ingredients, they will always describe it in the way that produces the most money. Means nothing and buyer beware, you are the sheep they market this way to.
Yes, that then means I can call Destiny an MMO and link to this thread whenever someone says it isn't because the company doesn't call it an MMO.
Your logic fails, point is that what a company calls its product often but not always has no bearing on what it actually is. It also has nothing to do with what YOU call something. You can be just as wrong or right as the company, or say the opposite as the company and be wrong either way.
nor does your post matter on what it actually is. You and others calling it not a sandbox are actually a minor insignificant fringe group that only thinks a sandbox MMO is one very linear design concept.
When every other site, what the company itself calls it, what everyone on reddit, facebook and twitter call it as a sandbox MMO...the opinion of it not being a sandbox is the wrong one. No different than the fringe flat earthers who call earth flat when the rest of the world knows earth is round.
My Skyrim, Fallout 4, Starbound and WoW + other game mods at MODDB:
Official Twitter for #BlackDesert Online NA/EU, the next-gen action based, sandbox MMORPG.
Even the official twitter BDO that is owned by black desert itself calls it a sandbox MMO
Unless the creators of BDO are wrong. Then that means I will always link to this thread when I talk about Destiny and many other games are actually MMOs. And when anyone posts "but the company doesn't call it an MMO!" I'll link to this thread and show people that the people in this thread said the company was wrong about their own game being a sandbox MMO. Which means other companies can be wrong about not calling their game an MMO.
You are rediculous dude. Companies call their products whatever best suits their desired perception of their product, and unless there is some legal reason they cannot, such as misrepresenting dangerous ingredients, they will always describe it in the way that produces the most money. Means nothing and buyer beware, you are the sheep they market this way to.
Yes, that then means I can call Destiny an MMO and link to this thread whenever someone says it isn't because the company doesn't call it an MMO.
Your logic fails, point is that what a company calls its product often but not always has no bearing on what it actually is. It also has nothing to do with what YOU call something. You can be just as wrong or right as the company, or say the opposite as the company and be wrong either way.
nor does your post matter on what it actually is. You and others calling it not a sandbox are actually a minor insignificant fringe group that only thinks a sandbox MMO is one very linear design concept.
When every other site, what the company itself calls it, what everyone on reddit, facebook and twitter call it as a sandbox MMO...the opinion of it not being a sandbox is the wrong one. No different than the fringe flat earthers who call earth flat when the rest of the world knows earth is round.
Yet you can't name a single feature thats really sandbox... lol sad. and everyone on reddit etc my ass.
No matter how many sites state that BDO is a sandbox MMO, it still wont change the fact that it isnt
If its a FACT then prove it. All I see are peoples saying its not a sandbox because THEY don't think it is.
I am posting sources from mmo websites and media outlets that cover the genre and they are saying its a Sandbox game.
Here is Meta Critic. The #1 review site on the internet.
Nope - -media and review sites are opinions not facts
Here is how facts work - you start with a definion:
Define sandbox game:
"A sandbox is a style of game in which minimal character limitations are placed on the gamer, allowing the gamer to roam and change a virtual world at will."
Does BDO fit that definion?
It doesnt.
So BDO is not a sandbox game.
Simple, isnt it?
Nope, its just more of what you think. LOL
One of the defining features of a Themepark MMO is the level based areas that the players must play through as they progress in the game, its something that is not present in sandbox MMO's, the last example of which was probably SWG Pre-CU, though the evolution of SWG was that of a sandbox MMO that was converted into a themepark MMO, via the introduction of levels and level based areas. Its one of, if not the most obvious way in which a themepark game is defined as such.
No, No, No NO..
Having various level areas is not what defines a Themepark MMO. In fact one of the most Sandbox MMO's ever, Trove, has leveled zones.
In BDO, you don't have to play though anything beyond the basic tutorial, and having a tutorial is hardly grounds to call a game a Themepark. If you want to go into higher level areas, you can.. you run a high risk of getting killed by the higher level mobs, but nothing is stopping you.
So.. Yah.. I think it's your definition that needs work, not if BDO is a themepark of Sandbox.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
BDO is just a mess of ideas with no plausible realism to the world or a players actions.
It took me 1 day to realize how bad the game was but i played for about a week to get some value from my purchase but i just couldn't take it anymore.
BDO had a couple nice ideas but did them CHEAP and poorly,so no thanks,i need to see a better effort if i am to get past the horrible combat and character/class systems. Also don't want ANY form of PVP ruining or influencing my game or the game/class designs.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
No matter how many sites state that BDO is a sandbox MMO, it still wont change the fact that it isnt
If its a FACT then prove it. All I see are peoples saying its not a sandbox because THEY don't think it is.
I am posting sources from mmo websites and media outlets that cover the genre and they are saying its a Sandbox game.
Here is Meta Critic. The #1 review site on the internet.
Nope - -media and review sites are opinions not facts
Here is how facts work - you start with a definion:
Define sandbox game:
"A sandbox is a style of game in which minimal character limitations are placed on the gamer, allowing the gamer to roam and change a virtual world at will."
Does BDO fit that definion?
It doesnt.
So BDO is not a sandbox game.
Simple, isnt it?
Nope, its just more of what you think. LOL
One of the defining features of a Themepark MMO is the level based areas that the players must play through as they progress in the game, its something that is not present in sandbox MMO's, the last example of which was probably SWG Pre-CU, though the evolution of SWG was that of a sandbox MMO that was converted into a themepark MMO, via the introduction of levels and level based areas. Its one of, if not the most obvious way in which a themepark game is defined as such.
No, No, No NO..
Having various level areas is not what defines a Themepark MMO. In fact one of the most Sandbox MMO's ever, Trove, has leveled zones.
In BDO, you don't have to play though anything beyond the basic tutorial, and having a tutorial is hardly grounds to call a game a Themepark. If you want to go into higher level areas, you can.. you run a high risk of getting killed by the higher level mobs, but nothing is stopping you.
So.. Yah.. I think it's your definition that needs work, not if BDO is a themepark of Sandbox.
Conversely, allowing players to traipse into any zone they choose is a poor indicator of a sandbox. You could do that in vanilla WoW if you wanted.
No matter how many sites state that BDO is a sandbox MMO, it still wont change the fact that it isnt
If its a FACT then prove it. All I see are peoples saying its not a sandbox because THEY don't think it is.
I am posting sources from mmo websites and media outlets that cover the genre and they are saying its a Sandbox game.
Here is Meta Critic. The #1 review site on the internet.
Nope - -media and review sites are opinions not facts
Here is how facts work - you start with a definion:
Define sandbox game:
"A sandbox is a style of game in which minimal character limitations are placed on the gamer, allowing the gamer to roam and change a virtual world at will."
Does BDO fit that definion?
It doesnt.
So BDO is not a sandbox game.
Simple, isnt it?
Nope, its just more of what you think. LOL
One of the defining features of a Themepark MMO is the level based areas that the players must play through as they progress in the game, its something that is not present in sandbox MMO's, the last example of which was probably SWG Pre-CU, though the evolution of SWG was that of a sandbox MMO that was converted into a themepark MMO, via the introduction of levels and level based areas. Its one of, if not the most obvious way in which a themepark game is defined as such.
No, No, No NO..
Having various level areas is not what defines a Themepark MMO. In fact one of the most Sandbox MMO's ever, Trove, has leveled zones.
In BDO, you don't have to play though anything beyond the basic tutorial, and having a tutorial is hardly grounds to call a game a Themepark. If you want to go into higher level areas, you can.. you run a high risk of getting killed by the higher level mobs, but nothing is stopping you.
So.. Yah.. I think it's your definition that needs work, not if BDO is a themepark of Sandbox.
Conversely, allowing players to traipse into any zone they choose is a poor indicator of a sandbox. You could do that in vanilla WoW if you wanted.
No, but it's a great way to let players die to their own stupidity.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
Out of curiosity with the 1/2 price thing going on, is it foolish to just spend $5 if you want to fool around with BDO for a while vs the $15 and $25 versions, or is one of the other two a practical necessity?
Out of curiosity with the 1/2 price thing going on, is it foolish to just spend $5 if you want to fool around with BDO for a while vs the $15 and $25 versions, or is one of the other two a practical necessity?
No matter what version you get expect to drop at least $50-150 in the cash shop to make the game enjoyable.
BDO is designed to have annoying gameplay experience until you spend money in the cash shop to remove the annoyances.
A great example are pets. Which funny enough are the most "economical" thing in the cash shop since they made the cash shop pets account bound, not character bound like everything else. But still need 5 pets to enjoy the game.
The looting system is terrible without pets, cause you kill so much and by time you can manually loot...all the corpses start disappearing really quick. kinda bullshit lol
My Skyrim, Fallout 4, Starbound and WoW + other game mods at MODDB:
@Mikeha you sure have the subtlety of a hammer but I guess you made your point.
It won't make much difference because the definition of sandbox seems to be different depending on who were are talking to.
I could keep going.
The same thing repeated doesn't make it true however. BDO is a good game but it is a themepark game, it does have some features that you often find in sandbox games, but only a few and at its heart it is still a level based themepark experience. If you use the map function in BDO it clearly shows the level of the areas, this is the very definition of a themepark.
Source?
my source is BDO, launch game, while in game press M this brings up the map, it clearly says the level of the areas, quite helpfully i might add.
Then show a source that says levels on a map means a game is not a sandbox. LMAO
Thats probably the most silly reason I have ever heard. So when the game came out it was a Sandbox because the map did not even have that but when they added the levels of areas on the map it then change the game from being a Sandbox? /SMH
Think part of the point was in a true sandbox you will not have leveled zones, you would have multiple leveled mobs in the same area. You have the chance to run across mobs that are extremely higher level than you are in all areas as there is no level area. That would be a true sandbox. If you create groups or areas that require certain levels to go to then no it wouldn't be a sandbox. That would be a game that is on rails because you need levels to go do things, think those are called themeparks.
Out of curiosity with the 1/2 price thing going on, is it foolish to just spend $5 if you want to fool around with BDO for a while vs the $15 and $25 versions, or is one of the other two a practical necessity?
No matter what version you get expect to drop at least $50-150 in the cash shop to make the game enjoyable.
BDO is designed to have annoying gameplay experience until you spend money in the cash shop to remove the annoyances.
Meh, it isn't worth that much to me. Hence consider what to do in say $25.
Recommending BDO to anyone is a travesty and should be a crime.
BDO itself is great. I stopped playing cause the cash shop ruined it. And it wasnt even the worse cash shop, GW2 is way worse as far as that goes. The problem is, BDO is designed to piss the player off (pretty much like DMKano said) to pay in the cash shop.
But the one item that is stupid as hell is the 50 dollar tent. That is when I realized "why the F am I playing this game and wasting my money". And that woke me up to the scam of the game. I can literally buy a better tent in real life that is brand new for CHEAPER lol
Game is good, but its designed all around the cash shop. Not pay to win, but in many ways, a lot worse since its a lot more underhanded and "secretive"
My Skyrim, Fallout 4, Starbound and WoW + other game mods at MODDB:
Comments
While its an award from another site, they still posted they won a SANDBOX award
Here is the same post about award, but facebook if twitter isn't good enough
https://www.facebook.com/BlackDesertOnline/posts/1526284990825849?comment_id=1526297217491293&reply_comment_id=1526304897490525&comment_tracking={"tn":"R9"}
So is the company of BDO wrong to call it a sandbox? If so, that opens the door that companies that own games like Destiny and many others could be wrong to not call their game an MMO. So can I now officially say Destiny is an MMO and link to this thread about companies being wrong?
Cause that is the biggest counter argument of some people saying Destiny isn't an MMO, cause the company doesn't call it that. But if BDO themselves calls their game a sandbox and people are saying its wrong...well that means Destiny could easily be wrong as well
My Skyrim, Fallout 4, Starbound and WoW + other game mods at MODDB:
https://www.moddb.com/mods/skyrim-anime-overhaul
My Skyrim, Fallout 4, Starbound and WoW + other game mods at MODDB:
https://www.moddb.com/mods/skyrim-anime-overhaul
I sure have and I can assure you that in the sandbox I played in, there was no one telling me that I could only play in one part of the sandbox for the first few minutes, and another part for the next few minutes and going back to the first part of the sandbox once you progressed to the next part was pointless. No, I played in whatever part of the sandbox I wanted whether I just started or had been playing for a few hours.
Also, no one told me how to play in my sandbox. No one told me what classes my characters in my sandbox could be. No one told me that I have to be a certain thing because of my gender.
Sandboxes are about going wherever you want and doing whatever you want, whenever you want.
So no, Black Desert Online is not a sandbox. There are far too many limitations.
Now, I disagree with the notion that sandboxes can't have developer created content in them, I just believe that how the player handles that content is the meaningful part.
In my opinion, we won't get a true MMORPG pve sandbox that involves combat for a long while. The technology just isn't there yet. Crafting ones without combat work because the players are the developers, but for any mmo sandbox with combat, the amount of landmass required for players to not step on each others toes at every corner and for the players to actually feel like they have an impact on the world, is absolutely enormous and probably won't be possible until dynamically created open ended content is possible. I'm talking dynamically created villages and dungeons, with villagers all having their own issues and needs.
Philosophy of MMO Game Design
When every other site, what the company itself calls it, what everyone on reddit, facebook and twitter call it as a sandbox MMO...the opinion of it not being a sandbox is the wrong one. No different than the fringe flat earthers who call earth flat when the rest of the world knows earth is round.
My Skyrim, Fallout 4, Starbound and WoW + other game mods at MODDB:
https://www.moddb.com/mods/skyrim-anime-overhaul
Having various level areas is not what defines a Themepark MMO. In fact one of the most Sandbox MMO's ever, Trove, has leveled zones.
In BDO, you don't have to play though anything beyond the basic tutorial, and having a tutorial is hardly grounds to call a game a Themepark. If you want to go into higher level areas, you can.. you run a high risk of getting killed by the higher level mobs, but nothing is stopping you.
So.. Yah.. I think it's your definition that needs work, not if BDO is a themepark of Sandbox.
It took me 1 day to realize how bad the game was but i played for about a week to get some value from my purchase but i just couldn't take it anymore.
BDO had a couple nice ideas but did them CHEAP and poorly,so no thanks,i need to see a better effort if i am to get past the horrible combat and character/class systems.
Also don't want ANY form of PVP ruining or influencing my game or the game/class designs.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
Contrast that with metacritic's description, of say, Wurm Online:
"Wurm Unlimited is a full standalone version of the fantasy sandbox world Wurm Online, the MMORPG where the players are in charge."
http://www.metacritic.com/game/pc/wurm-unlimited
The looting system is terrible without pets, cause you kill so much and by time you can manually loot...all the corpses start disappearing really quick. kinda bullshit lol
My Skyrim, Fallout 4, Starbound and WoW + other game mods at MODDB:
https://www.moddb.com/mods/skyrim-anime-overhaul
https://morningstoryanddilbert.files.wordpress.com/2013/09/7181-strip.gif
But the one item that is stupid as hell is the 50 dollar tent. That is when I realized "why the F am I playing this game and wasting my money". And that woke me up to the scam of the game. I can literally buy a better tent in real life that is brand new for CHEAPER lol
Game is good, but its designed all around the cash shop. Not pay to win, but in many ways, a lot worse since its a lot more underhanded and "secretive"
My Skyrim, Fallout 4, Starbound and WoW + other game mods at MODDB:
https://www.moddb.com/mods/skyrim-anime-overhaul