Stealing - Feature or Foolishness

Amathe

When I played Morrowind (the original, as a single player rpg) I discovered I could steal things. Up until that moment in my life I had been an honest person, not inclined to theft. But in Morrowind I indulged my dormant bad character and stole everything. And I mean everything. Entire villages were filled to capacity with heaps of the things I stole. It was over the top. I totally lost interest in the game itself and just went around looking for so much as a tea pot that I might have left untouched.

Some mmorpgs have a steal ability that lets you pinch a few coppers off another player or NPC. They never seem to develop it much - maybe to prevent people like me from toting off the whole game. 

I don't think people should be able to do what I did in any multiplayer game, but ought there not be a little more substance to stealing? Less of a novelty and at least as good as a mini-game?

Cryomatrix

Hmm, closet-klepto I see. 

I think it would be a nice feature but it has to be done right. A few rules to be in place. I'd do it like this. 

1) Player can steal from other players' dwelling or houses. 

2) Player must put points into it and be a certain minimum level to do it (i don't want players making random-who-cares-alts to steal)

3) Each player with a house or dwelling or stash or whatever have storage chests which to put their gear in. The storage chests can hold a limited amount of items 8-16. But there are different levels of chests with differing safety features. (Think of hacking in EVE)

4) The player with a house can setup up traps and defenses in their dwellings. 

5) The player with a house gets a warning when someone has broken in the house (only if their breaking in mechanism isn't perfect)

6) The player with a house can view the other player and decide to come back and fight. This will trigger an automatic duel. If the thieving players gets in a duel, and loses, the thief drops a random piece of gear. If the owner of the house loses, the thief gets into any chest automatically. 

7) The thieving player can break into a house and a storage chest but to break into a chest has to play a mini-game based on the difficulty of the innate storage chest. 

8) If the thieving player does everything successfully, they can steal one item in the chest. Then the player house has a 72 hour timer where it can't be broken into again. 

9) The thieving player can fail in many different ways. They fail to break into the house (automatic 24 hour timer that the thief can't try again). They fail to disarm a chest. A trap goes off. They get killed by your in-place traps setup in your house. If the theiving player dies either to you or traps or defenses, it drops one piece of loot randomly that it was carrying. A thieving player has the opportunity to run away from the house based on traps and security guards but not if the player comes back. Then they cannot run away. 

10) Each player with a house has 3 slots to put into a chest that cannot be picked under any circumstance. (i.e. if you get the bestest drop ever and you need it to be protected, it is necessary)

11) A player house can have a set number of traps and security guards which cost currency/day. 

That's how I would do it. Make sure you have very intrinsically nice housing with the abilities to setup traps and guards and such. 

12) There are NPC houses to steal from and it acts like mobs with higher levels and such. 

This way, thieving becomes a profession with risks and rewards. 

Kyleran

Early MMORPGS had stealing, UO and Shadowbane as I recall but it seemed to die out pretty quickly from game designs after that.

Likely too hard to balance as it tends to favor only the thief, while player "victims" rarely got any reward for catching a thief besides killing and looting them and a smart thief carried little of real value.

ESO has some sort of theiving mechanic right? Not sure how it works there.

Scot

Morrowind is an expansion of ESO and what is a "single player" RPG anyway?

I think if your going to do something in a game do it well, or just don't bother, spend the design time on something else. Does the OP have any games in mind so we have an idea of what he thinks is a sub-par system.

cheyane

I always feel stealing is cheesing even in single player games. I did not steal at all in Divinity Original Sin 2 although many people kept advising people to do so. It really ruins the game because it does trivialize the rest of the game it makes it easier to acquire things earlier and faster and hence completely destroys the balance.

In an MMORPG I cannot tell you how annoyed I am when a game allows another player to steal from me. Rest assured I will go about with absolutely shit gear if that is so. I was so outraged when I was playing WoW in vanilla and had no idea where the loot was coming from when they allowed loot in BGs. I was ready to go all out commando until I was told it was a separate loot table.

No, this type of mechanic is enjoyable for the person who steals again not something I enjoy doing.

Iselin

ESO caters to closet kleptos quite well. For one thing you can only steal from NPCs not other players. They even have a skill lines with skills you can train that make you more adept at picking pockets, being harder to detect while sneaking, etc. And of course they have the Thieve's guild that is all about that.

In some areas they have a cat and mouse mini games with patrolling guards that must be avoided. In those areas you get a warning that you're trespassing and if caught you'll get a bounty and the guards will attack you. If you attack them back and kill them your bounty will increase.

The rewards from stealing and picking pockets are modest. if you're not very good at it and get noticed a lot, your bounty will usually exceed whatever you managed to filch. It's very well balanced in a risk/reward kind of way.

It's honestly not a part of the game that has a lot of attraction for me but some people really love this stuff. /shrug

Lithuanian

Only once idea of theft appealed to me and it was single-player game "Thief-2:The Metal Age". Other than that - no, thanks.

Yes, we do have Burglar in Lotro that may steal from monsters. You know, these fat stinking Orcs always carry extra coin or Burglar armour in their pockets, right? /sarcasm.

No, I won't wish to play MMO where stronger player one-shots me, takes everything ir leaves. Would I have stealing from NPCs in my own MMO? I guess, no. No need. Wanna loot, kill that monster and take everything you can carry.

Shaigh

The MUD I originally played had stealing, it was quite common for idle players in the town area to be robbed blind, or getting robbed as they removed money from the bank. If the character noticed your attempt there was a global message that your bounty had gone up by 500 gold.

Thugs had mugging which worked on wielded/worn items, so first you tried to mug the warrior out of their weapon before you attacked them. Problem was that everyone got a global message which sometimes resulted in you being summoned by a mage or players waiting around in the teleprtation vortex room.

Rhoms

UO had stealing.  At the time I played, town banks were the central player hubs in the game.  The towns were protected by insta-teleporting halberd wielding guards that one-hit kill and had really good thieving detection skills.  You could also easily summon guards to a crime by saying, "guards."  Amateur thieves were getting whacked all the time.  Sometimes they would successfully steal an item but still get caught.  Guards would whack them and your stuff could be looted by anyone off the thief's corpse.  Players would stack their inventories full of bales of hay and clothing so thieves couldn't steal what was underneath.  For a time, player housing was fully lootable if someone had the house key, and they were very easy to steal.  It didn't take long for that mechanic to be changed.  Good times.  

Yes, some of those old school mechanics and avoidance strategies above were super crappy, but I do think stealing/pickpocketing has a place in MMORPGs.  I could see it being a fun play style in a modern, PVP-centric game, but personally, if I'm going to be a criminal, I'm more of a gank and loot variety.

Vrika

Stealing can be fun in a game that's designed for it, Thief II was one of my favourite games. But I don't think it should be implemented as a side-activity to an MMO, all the implementations I've seen feel like too half-assed attempts. Imho either make it good or don't make it at all.

Kyleran

ikcin said:

Lithuanian said:

No, I won't wish to play MMO where stronger player one-shots me, takes everything ir leaves.

So you are the constant victim?

Pretty much true for me, I am so rarely an aggressor unless I’m just going along with the raid team or whatever.

I don’t attack the weak or helpless, in fact I’ve been in roams in EVE where my squad went to gank some miners and I refused to shoot, just feels wrong to me. (Being an often helpless miner myself)

Sure, if the enemy is attacking, or within our territory, but even then when I played in DAOC my guild would let neutral players have an option to pay “tribute” of some small amount of gold instead of being killed, as long as they agreed to move out of “our” territory.

In EVE I once bought a CODE mining permit for some small amount, and surprisingly they honored it and never bothered me.  (Though I still safed up when I noticed them coming through the system, no reason to take chances)

I have to ask, are you the constant bully?

Amathe

I should supplement my post to say that personally, I am not looking to take any meaningful items (or anything really) from other players. I would be happy trying to take them from NPCs, and suffer a consequence (capture, imprisonment, need to pay a fine) if I get caught in the process. 

Octagon7711

I remember while playing ME:2 I think it was, Shepard came across a sick person in her apartment that died right after you talked to her.  The worse was the game mechanics that had you loot her safe for some credits.  So you were constantly helping people and stealing from them in that game.

ESOs thieving mechanics can be fun but so can all the specialty DLC.  Taking energy from players as a vamp, beating players as a WW, one shot kills as an assassin. All part of the game play for that expansion.

Eldurian

Mortal Online has a whole thief line of skills. Thieves are usually max move speed characters with nothing on them then sneak up behind people while they are distracted in towns, take their stuff, then gun running away with it because if you push someone who has a hidden thief marker they get criminal flagged and the guards kill them.

Eventually all the vets started watching the backs, so unwary newbs were the only people who got pickpocketed. Being a thief wasn't profitable, it had vets watching all directions in paranoia, and the people getting robbed were newbs.

Perhaps there could be a good thief system. It wasn't Mortal Online's though.

Sovrath

Amathe said:

When I played Morrowind (the original, as a single player rpg) I discovered I could steal things. Up until that moment in my life I had been an honest person, not inclined to theft. But in Morrowind I indulged my dormant bad character and stole everything. And I mean everything. Entire villages were filled to capacity with heaps of the things I stole. It was over the top. I totally lost interest in the game itself and just went around looking for so much as a tea pot that I might have left untouched.

Some mmorpgs have a steal ability that lets you pinch a few coppers off another player or NPC. They never seem to develop it much - maybe to prevent people like me from toting off the whole game. 

I don't think people should be able to do what I did in any multiplayer game, but ought there not be a little more substance to stealing? Less of a novelty and at least as good as a mini-game?

I have no desire to steal things from actual players. It's just not there, no interest. Not how I'm drawn.

As far as the elder scrolls (single player) games? It depends on the character.

I can tell you that I've yet to play the Thieves' Guild quest in Skyrim and I've been playing the game since launch.

This is not to say I wouldn't play a thief, just need to have a decent setting where each theft is interesting.

But stealing from players? Nah, no interest.

AlBQuirky

Vrika said:

Stealing can be fun in a game that's designed for it, Thief II was one of my favourite games. But I don't think it should be implemented as a side-activity to an MMO, all the implementations I've seen feel like too half-assed attempts. Imho either make it good or don't make it at all.

Agreed. Stealing is a solo activity. You're going for stealth and patience. Having random players run between you and your target messes that up royally. Can other players "see" you? Can they call the guards? Does sneaking turn the sneaker "invisible."

No, stealing is not a massively multiplayer activity, in my opinion.

PS: I seem to be opposite of some of the others. I don't mind stealing from mindless pixels, aka as NPCs, but other players, aka real people, I would never do

Morgenes83

NEVER EVER implement stealing into a MMO.

You will encounter the following.
Groups of 3-4 people completely looking the same with nearly the same names Illilil Illillil...standing around for some time stealing from themselves until they have maxed the skill.
Afterwards you will see them running around naked in town swarming around players.

If you get them after stealing they only lose what they have stolen from you. Otherwise they made 100% profit.

I have seen this in Mortal way too often. Griefers paradise.

Even if you have harsh penalties. New character 3 days stealing from each other and they are back on track again. Loot from old characters is at twinks, friends twinks or 2nd accounts.

Cryomatrix

I wouldn't steal either. Even though I could see how it could be fun based on the way I envision it. I bloody hate thieves. People that steal other people's information or cell phones or stuff from others are so pathetic. I'd love to talk to someone who steals and see how they justify it. I mean steal from people and see how they justify it. 

Cryomatrix

Eldurian

The more I think about it, the more there becomes an obvious solution. Thievery needs to have gear associated with it if implemented. For lockpicking and stuff thieves tools are very realistic but for pickpocketing not so much. Nevertheless, if you're going to have the mechanic be good there needs to be gear involved in pickpocketing. Otherwise thieves have no skin in the game.

If they actually had some skin in the game you would see rare specialized thieves who are very good at what they do looking for big scores, instead of a bunch of hobos trying to pick your pocket in every major city.

Perhaps the latter is more realistic but the former seems more fun for everyone involved.

Eldurian

Cryomatrix said:

I wouldn't steal either. Even though I could see how it could be fun based on the way I envision it. I bloody hate thieves. People that steal other people's information or cell phones or stuff from others are so pathetic. I'd love to talk to someone who steals and see how they justify it.

I very much agree with you but I understand it a bit more in the confines of a video game.

There are certain groups that legally operate in this nation that I consider to be straight evil. The only reason I would not rob them blind for everything they have is because there are people who would suffer if I died or went to prison and people I would rather die than be separated from. 

Within the context of a video game I can play the chaotic-good thief robbing from the badguys and enjoy it. Same way I love PvP but I like to kill people who have gotten on my badside. I'm not one to kill a random person, and I'm not one to steal a random persons stuff but if you only target people who deserve it in PvP games you will never want for targets.

Steelhelm

I'm thinking you can make stealing in two ways in an mmorpg. ownership way or no-ownership way. the ownership way isn't interesting unless an item is a unique. Perhaps players could brand items as their own and if they get stolen see where they are located.

The only way I would create stealing into an mmorpg would be with an alignment system like in dungeons&dragons where gods keep track of character action.

Some repercussions for chaotic characters could be that they can't be citizens in a lawful realm etc. NPC  guards casting detect alignment and prohibiting access to chaotic characters. And if the character is caught outright stealing incarceration, deportation and/or death(in evil realms).

Another mechanic related to stealing could be that the character's who steals alignment temporalily becomes chaotic for 30 min or so and then returns to normal +/- the shift caused by the theft.

Scot

I think posters who want stealing, mugging and looting in MMORPG's have missed their vocation in life.

MadFrenchie

Kyleran said:

ikcin said:

Lithuanian said:

No, I won't wish to play MMO where stronger player one-shots me, takes everything ir leaves.

So you are the constant victim?

Pretty much true for me, I am so rarely an aggressor unless I’m just going along with the raid team or whatever.

I don’t attack the weak or helpless, in fact I’ve been in roams in EVE where my squad went to gank some miners and I refused to shoot, just feels wrong to me. (Being an often helpless miner myself)

Sure, if the enemy is attacking, or within our territory, but even then when I played in DAOC my guild would let neutral players have an option to pay “tribute” of some small amount of gold instead of being killed, as long as they agreed to move out of “our” territory.

In EVE I once bought a CODE mining permit for some small amount, and surprisingly they honored it and never bothered me.  (Though I still safed up when I noticed them coming through the system, no reason to take chances)

I have to ask, are you the constant bully?

Waiting for folks to attack can be it's own reward.  For instance, leveling my Arcane Mage the other day (was at level 42), I got polymorphed and attacked by a level 50 Mage.  I literally /laughed and /danced him until my health bar went below 50%, popped my Mana Shield (talented to no CD, but draining Mana equal to 20% of damage dealt to me up to the full shield health), then proceeded to murder him with only 30-40% health for the entirety of the time I was actually fighting back.

Needless to say, he decided it wasn't worth a second try.   

Eldurian

Scot said:

I think posters who want stealing, mugging and looting in MMORPG's have missed their vocation in life.

Politicians?

Flyte27

Thieving has always been a part of fantasy.  There are always both villains and anti heroes who steal.  The thief of Bagdad comes to mind, but I've seen many movies where the hero was a thief.  Sometimes they only steal from the rich and sometimes not.

I think the major issue is that people can't let go of reality.  This is a fantasy world where no one really gets hurt.  If you want to live in a society with social order there are plenty of places in the United States that have that now and it's better than doing it in a game. 

I played UO a lot and I do recall the whole the mechanic that people mentioned where you would get killed by guards if caught stealing.  I think it did it by accident when I was learning the game and got killed at the bank.

In terms of people getting their skills up by practicing with others that seems fair to me.  I've never done it before short of learning languages in EQ, but it makes sense for thieves to practice with each other before trying their skills on other people.  It is a high risk profession after all.

The thief class has always been a major player in fantasy stories throughout history.  I don't think it should be excluded due to modern ideologies of what is right and wrong, political correctness, or personal moral issues from reality.

Eldurian

I'm just going to throw out the name of a group we all revile. The Westboro Baptist church. They're the one who picket funerals to tell them God hates their deceased relatives. I do not steal from them because, I'm not going to chance getting caught and suffering the consequences.

However, if I had the powers of a video game character or lived in a bit less lawful of a society, I would gladly take the money they use to cause hate, keep what I need of it and give the rest to groups who would use it to do good. Because money is power and taking power from those who use it for evil is never morally wrong in my eyes.

That being said, in a less lawful society. If I caught someone just randomly stealing say my neighbor's car, I would smash their face, because my neighbor needs their car and would suffer great hardship if it was taken from them. Beyond that they earned it and the thief did not. I see no value in someone who causes other people hardship in order to benefit themselves.

So even living by my real life morals 100% there are certain types of thieves I could play guilt free, and certain types I would fight against.