Well how about putting those kids in a MMOPRG where that happens and see what they say, it is not really a fair comparison?
There is room for a MMORPG that gives the player setbacks, but if it goes too far and players come to think of it as griefing then it is not surprising they react again that.
? This isnt making sense
Yes, it does, however you are willfully ignoring what is being said in order to make a specious argument.
Fallout 76 is looking to be the next great example. Take an IP beloved by millions of gamers, and put it in a Rust like, PVP survival game.
Devs know this won't fly with many of the series fans, but instead of coming clean and admitting they are creating a typical gankbox, they coyly say they have "plans" to discourage bad behavior. (No real details of course)
We all know those plans will come for naught, at least until they provide private instances in the future, a model Funcom correctly offered from the beginning, and many players took advantage of.
Heck, recently Funcom offered multiple rulesets on their official servers including PVE only and a more limited PVP server which prevents players from losing some progession unawares.
Surprising Bethesda didn't watch and learn from this, but developers without any experience creating open PVP games often believe they can control player behavior.
They will soon discover they are wrong. Asshats will always find a way to be who they are as just like war, nothing ever changes.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
The difference is often that the items in stuff like ARK are easier to come by. It is also a matter of chosen play styles. I don't go in to an FPS game and get mad because it doesn't have deep character advancement. However I think you underestimate how many people play on private servers to keep that griefing to a minimum on ARK, Conan, Citadel, DnL, etc.
I know my son plays on private servers and public but still seems to be a general base raiding mentality on both. Maybe the average private server is better. I don't play.
Children don't value their time and progression the same way as most adults do, hence the popularity of minecraft, ark and others among their age group.
For them, there is always another tomorrow, while adults come to understand with each passing year how untrue that really is.
Some adults don't value their time very much either, judging from the many bad games they'll play.
Maybe. I am probably a lot more grief tolerant than the average MMORPG players. I did start at 16 though which is the age my son is. I think why have a hard time stomaching normal themeparks is the lack of excitement in doing mostly meaningless quest and stat multiplication. I could care less about cool gear if everyone has it. I could care less if i had 50 HP or 500 HP if the enemies all felt the same. Themeparks to me waste a lot of time with progression that at the end of the day doesn't mean much we are forced go through.
UO was fun to me and probably ruined my whole MMORPG outlook. It was so random and player centric while not forcing me to group. Even the crazy beta bugs which usually were either funny or fun just added too it. I would love to see a game where it allows mature player interactions while having anti-grief mechanism in place. Seem's now games go out of their way to limit interaction to just random groups, guilds and sterile PvP.
I wouldn't call destroying another player's stuff in Ark "griefing", since it's pretty much baked into the cake. It's as much a part of the gameplay as building the stuff in the first place. It's also why Fallout 76 will be the first in the Fallout series I won't be buying. I'm just not interested in that kind of gameplay. It's an absolute dealbreaker, for me. But it's not griefing; it's playing the game as it was intended. You don't go to the trouble of creating a full loot PvP system unless you intend for players to use it.
Griefing is using a game mechanic in a way it wasn't intended in order to ruin another player's game. It's usually done in a way that provides no real benefit to the griefer other than some apparent joy in trying to make another player's experience a miserable one. The chair thing in early UO comes to mind, where players built a crapton of chairs and dropped piles of them at all the exits of a city to keep players from entering/leaving.
My son plays Ark and they have their bases destroyed and dinos killed. These type of things would horrify the average MMORPG player. Full loot, base destroyed and dinos killed is just something to take in stride. This game does have character development and grinding for buildings.
MMORPG players on the hand seem to hate being killed or grieved even they lose very little. Why is there a stark difference?
I feel like the ARK crowd and that genre attracts a different kind of player. Personally i Don't see the WOW or EQ crowd making up the player base. Iv always viewed the bulk of fans of that particular kind of MMO the same ones who play FPS competitive shooters such as PubG, Fortnite,CSGO ect ect. Its a different crowd, Not only the way they accept full loot and griefing but just the general chat and humor you find over mic. No offense to anyone here but most of you guys would be horrified to hear the things people say in these kind of games, It also seems to be allowed as iv never seen anyone get banned.
Well how about putting those kids in a MMOPRG where that happens and see what they say, it is not really a fair comparison?
There is room for a MMORPG that gives the player setbacks, but if it goes too far and players come to think of it as griefing then it is not surprising they react again that.
? This isnt making sense
Yes, it does, however you are willfully ignoring what is being said in order to make a specious argument.
Fallout 76 is looking to be the next great example. Take an IP beloved by millions of gamers, and put it in a Rust like, PVP survival game.
Devs know this won't fly with many of the series fans, but instead of coming clean and admitting they are creating a typical gankbox, they coyly say they have "plans" to discourage bad behavior. (No real details of course)
We all know those plans will come for naught, at least until they provide private instances in the future, a model Funcom correctly offered from the beginning, and many players took advantage of.
Heck, recently Funcom offered multiple rulesets on their official servers including PVE only and a more limited PVP server which prevents players from losing some progession unawares.
Surprising Bethesda didn't watch and learn from this, but developers without any experience creating open PVP games often believe they can control player behavior.
They will soon discover they are wrong. Asshats will always find a way to be who they are as just like war, nothing ever changes.
Hmm maybe you missed this or willfully ignored it .. But i did say back on page 1
"ts not happening in any MMO that does not say so in the ruleset , So
if a player does not like that style of game play , Dont play that game
... Its really very simple , There are games that cater to every kind of
ruleset out there , Play the games your comfortable with , and dont go
into others with unrealsitic expectaions .. If its a PVP game guess what
.. your gonna get pvp , You cant take a person seriously that , Goes
into a PVP game gets killed then cries about , That person has 0
credibility .."
so yea....Wont comment much on 76 as its got aways to go and would be foolish to assume anything at this point , they will change direction several times at this point ...
So , again, Dont go into a ruleset you dont like. Its very fucking simple it really is , you dont go into restauraunts you dont like over and over and demand they change there menu do ya ,No you go to a different restaurant .. its common sense
If people dont like PVP rule sets stay out .. Go to a rulsets that you are comfortable with .. WTF is so hard for some people to get with this
What happens in the type of games like Ark these survival games is not griefing at all. I don't see it as such and there is also very little invested and therefore the loss is completely acceptable.
I do not however consider a game where I could have spent many ,many hours in dungeons gathering and fighting for my gear and subsequently losing that gear to someone else totally unacceptable simply because of the huge time, effort and attachment I have to the character and items.
I would not describe myself as grief intolerant but rather that my effort and time is too valuable for me to just piss away by engaging in activity that brings me no joy whatsoever akin to some cases to abuse because high level characters camping my corpse is one such scenario. Not going to bother with the snide suggestion that somehow what I consider as fun is lesser than if I engage in PvP because the other activity is involving more brain power. Not going there and will not be baited to.
What happens in the type of games like Ark these survival games is not griefing at all. I don't see it as such and there is also very little invested and therefore the loss is completely acceptable.
I do not however consider a game where I could have spent many ,many hours in dungeons gathering and fighting for my gear and subsequently losing that gear to someone else totally unacceptable simply because of the huge time, effort and attachment I have to the character and items.
I would not describe myself as grief intolerant but rather that my effort and time is too valuable for me to just piss away by engaging in activity that brings me no joy whatsoever akin to some cases to abuse because high level characters camping my corpse is one such scenario. Not going to bother with the snide suggestion that somehow what I consider as fun is lesser than if I engage in PvP because the other activity is involving more brain power. Not going there and will not be baited to.
There is no game on the market that that scenario can happen in unless you conciously put your self in that sceanario .. aka .. Felluca Ultima Online.. Or if someone entered a game completly ignorant of the ruleset in that game , But that would be there problem there fault and would quickily learn the ruleset after that
My son plays Ark and they have their bases destroyed and dinos killed. These type of things would horrify the average MMORPG player. Full loot, base destroyed and dinos killed is just something to take in stride. This game does have character development and grinding for buildings.
MMORPG players on the hand seem to hate being killed or grieved even they lose very little. Why is there a stark difference?
Probably because the players who are playing are "on board" with that type of game play.
MMORPG players should only be playing games that have game play they want.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
My son plays Ark and they have their bases destroyed and dinos killed. These type of things would horrify the average MMORPG player. Full loot, base destroyed and dinos killed is just something to take in stride. This game does have character development and grinding for buildings.
MMORPG players on the hand seem to hate being killed or grieved even they lose very little. Why is there a stark difference?
Probably because the players who are playing are "on board" with that type of game play.
MMORPG players should only be playing games that have game play they want.
Yes we are Bentley customers that are finicky and cheap. Maybe we should play the games we need to play for long term enjoyment. Our genre has been taken over by single player gamers and whales.
I would imagine that the majority players drawn to your typical MMORPG are not the same type of players that are drawn to MOBAS and less massive multiplayer games like ARK. There is also the way the games are designed that make a huge difference in attitude towards one play style over another. Time invested in progress and loot acquisition is another difference and a precious commodity in the MMORPG genre.
Gamers in general have become progressively more whiny, entitled and emotionally weak. It isn't limited to MMOs.
Sorry, but in Overwatch, you will be banned because you act against the interest of your team. For instance, doing nothing and waiting for the others to do the job. You have still a lot of insulting emotes to use against the enemy. What gets you banned is behaving like an asshat towards your allies. Nobody will ever get banned for playing the game to the fullest and humiliating the enemy. Actually, one of the big features of the game is the "play of the game" video showing how you ultimately owned the enemy team on a major move of you.
We believe that our in-game reporting and player penalty system is one of our most important features, and it’s something we want to invest in significantly over the next year. To this end, effective immediately, we will be issuing increased penalties to players in response to verified reports of bad behavior. In Overwatch, that means anything from abusive chat, harassment, in-game spam, match inactivity (being intentionally AFK), and griefing. If you see someone engaging in any of these types of behaviors, report them. Players in violation will be silenced, suspended, or even banned from the game as a result.
Gamers in general have become progressively more whiny, entitled and emotionally weak. It isn't limited to MMOs.
Sorry, but in Overwatch, you will be banned because you act against the interest of your team. For instance, doing nothing and waiting for the others to do the job. You have still a lot of insulting emotes to use against the enemy. What gets you banned is behaving like an asshat towards your allies. Nobody will ever get banned for playing the game to the fullest and humiliating the enemy. Actually, one of the big features of the game is the "play of the game" video showing how you ultimately owned the enemy team on a major move of you.
We believe that our in-game reporting and player penalty system is one of our most important features, and it’s something we want to invest in significantly over the next year. To this end, effective immediately, we will be issuing increased penalties to players in response to verified reports of bad behavior. In Overwatch, that means anything from abusive chat, harassment, in-game spam, match inactivity (being intentionally AFK), and griefing. If you see someone engaging in any of these types of behaviors, report them. Players in violation will be silenced, suspended, or even banned from the game as a result.
The image cited contains none of the behaviors listed in the Blizzard snippet.
Not only that, but speaking of TF2, you can host your own server with admin options. My experience has been that the vast majority of admins aren't gonna let you sit around typing racist expletives or other bullshit in chat very long before kicking or banning you. Overwatch has no such servers, so Blizzard has to go another route to police them.
EDIT- I actually once saw an admin not only ban the player in a Valve multiplayer game, but used the admin option to unbind all the players keys, queue up on all voice, announce the player's name and inform him he was about to do it before doing so and banning him.
People are much more willing to accept things that they regard as a legitimate part of the game than something that violates the way they expect the game to be played. Someone who plays both football and baseball and would accept being tackled cleanly in football could very reasonably get angry at being tackled in exactly the same way while playing baseball.
I think you are highly overestimating how many people are PVPing in ARK. Most are playing solo or on PVE servers. All the PVP servers are practically empty, more than half the people online belonging to the same Alpha tribe. The alpha tribe is basically so big they are playing a PVE game behind their walls, with an occasional beat down of very small solo/tribes that try to hide and survive. 90% of the pvp is offline raiding. There might be a few even fights going on but its the exception not the rule.
Because in other genres you can install the game, kill people within seconds of opening the game.
In an MMO (outside EVE where you can do the same, and Planetside 1/2)...you grind hours/days/weeks/months...you get amazing items...here comes douche who either is super powerful with max skills, or max level or best items and kills you in one hit and if you hit him its 1 damage or nothing at all. And then he loots everything on your body and then you repeat the grind.
This is why EVE Online is so successful. Start up game, kill people in rookie ship. If you die in rookie ship, you get new rookie ship. But if the other player sucks or you have more PLAYER skill (not character skill) you can win the battle.
Planetside 1/2 of course is more a FPS so you can kill anyone if you are good at FPS games.
Or league of legend style games...its 100% fair, and you work with your team against the same number of other team...best skilled team wins...no grinding hours or months of your life...hop in, play kill people. No overwhelming zerg numbers, no overpowered items, no grinding 1000s of hours, no overpowered characters.
Most sandbox MMOs fail because they don't recreate LoL or Planetside 1/2 or EVE Online.
My Skyrim, Fallout 4, Starbound and WoW + other game mods at MODDB:
probably the same reason people are less tolerant to get killed in league of legend. You don't need to grind thousands of hours for a single piece of gear.
My view of MMOs has always been one of cooperation, not competition.....I have no interest in killing my neighbor and ruining his gaming experience.
Be they Middies an Hibs or Dark Elves and Orcs, they are not your neighbours. If you are playing in a regional PvP game you leave your neighbourhood and so does he for the express purpose of enjoying some PvP.
That's one of the reasons to me it all makes sense, you are not fighting the guy in the next allotment.
My view of MMOs has always been one of cooperation, not competition.....I have no interest in killing my neighbor and ruining his gaming experience.
Be they Middies an Hibs or Dark Elves and Orcs, they are not your neighbours. If you are playing in a regional PvP game you leave your neighbourhood and so does he for the express purpose of enjoying some PvP.
That's one of the reasons to me it all makes sense, you are not fighting the guy in the next allotment.
I have read so many fantasy books where dark elves became a dwarf's friend. There is no need to kill other players and you can play games by cooperating and nothing wrong with that playstyle and I think games are richer for it when they allow players to choose to be an enemy or a friend.
I think games become boring when you kill another just because they are a different race. In Everquest I could group with an Ogre as a High Elf. I loved that. For me gaming is about playing together against the monsters and not becoming a monster and slaughtering another race or neighbour or your own race.
My view of MMOs has always been one of cooperation, not competition.....I have no interest in killing my neighbor and ruining his gaming experience.
Be they Middies an Hibs or Dark Elves and Orcs, they are not your neighbours. If you are playing in a regional PvP game you leave your neighbourhood and so does he for the express purpose of enjoying some PvP.
That's one of the reasons to me it all makes sense, you are not fighting the guy in the next allotment.
I have read so many fantasy books where dark elves became a dwarf's friend. There is no need to kill other players and you can play games by cooperating and nothing wrong with that playstyle and I think games are richer for it when they allow players to choose to be an enemy or a friend.
I think games become boring when you kill another just because they are a different race. In Everquest I could group with an Ogre as a High Elf. I loved that. For me gaming is about playing together against the monsters and not becoming a monster and slaughtering another race or neighbour or your own race.
It does not have to be about other races, I was just thinking of some I have played. It does not seem that PvP is for you under any circumstances. That's how I felt when I played my first MMO AC, but changed my mind for my next MMO. You have to go with what you enjoy, you could in a regional PvP just do the non-PvP, but best to go with a MMO that has none I would think?
Because in other genres you can install the game, kill people within seconds of opening the game.
In an MMO (outside EVE where you can do the same, and Planetside 1/2)...you grind hours/days/weeks/months...you get amazing items...here comes douche who either is super powerful with max skills, or max level or best items and kills you in one hit and if you hit him its 1 damage or nothing at all. And then he loots everything on your body and then you repeat the grind.
This is why EVE Online is so successful. Start up game, kill people in rookie ship. If you die in rookie ship, you get new rookie ship. But if the other player sucks or you have more PLAYER skill (not character skill) you can win the battle.
Planetside 1/2 of course is more a FPS so you can kill anyone if you are good at FPS games.
Or league of legend style games...its 100% fair, and you work with your team against the same number of other team...best skilled team wins...no grinding hours or months of your life...hop in, play kill people. No overwhelming zerg numbers, no overpowered items, no grinding 1000s of hours, no overpowered characters.
Most sandbox MMOs fail because they don't recreate LoL or Planetside 1/2 or EVE Online.
Ill ask again beings folks want to keep posting this nonsense and not back it up , What current mainstream MMO (outside of Eve and UO Fel) is this horriffic act of looting happening in ..?
And even in Eve and UO this can be avoided with even the simplest lvl of research that lab monkeys could manage ...
Comments
All I want is the truth
Just gimme some truth
John Lennon
Fallout 76 is looking to be the next great example. Take an IP beloved by millions of gamers, and put it in a Rust like, PVP survival game.
Devs know this won't fly with many of the series fans, but instead of coming clean and admitting they are creating a typical gankbox, they coyly say they have "plans" to discourage bad behavior. (No real details of course)
We all know those plans will come for naught, at least until they provide private instances in the future, a model Funcom correctly offered from the beginning, and many players took advantage of.
Heck, recently Funcom offered multiple rulesets on their official servers including PVE only and a more limited PVP server which prevents players from losing some progession unawares.
Surprising Bethesda didn't watch and learn from this, but developers without any experience creating open PVP games often believe they can control player behavior.
They will soon discover they are wrong. Asshats will always find a way to be who they are as just like war, nothing ever changes.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
UO was fun to me and probably ruined my whole MMORPG outlook. It was so random and player centric while not forcing me to group. Even the crazy beta bugs which usually were either funny or fun just added too it. I would love to see a game where it allows mature player interactions while having anti-grief mechanism in place. Seem's now games go out of their way to limit interaction to just random groups, guilds and sterile PvP.
Griefing is using a game mechanic in a way it wasn't intended in order to ruin another player's game. It's usually done in a way that provides no real benefit to the griefer other than some apparent joy in trying to make another player's experience a miserable one. The chair thing in early UO comes to mind, where players built a crapton of chairs and dropped piles of them at all the exits of a city to keep players from entering/leaving.
Aloha Mr Hand !
I do not however consider a game where I could have spent many ,many hours in dungeons gathering and fighting for my gear and subsequently losing that gear to someone else totally unacceptable simply because of the huge time, effort and attachment I have to the character and items.
I would not describe myself as grief intolerant but rather that my effort and time is too valuable for me to just piss away by engaging in activity that brings me no joy whatsoever akin to some cases to abuse because high level characters camping my corpse is one such scenario. Not going to bother with the snide suggestion that somehow what I consider as fun is lesser than if I engage in PvP because the other activity is involving more brain power. Not going there and will not be baited to.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
Not only that, but speaking of TF2, you can host your own server with admin options. My experience has been that the vast majority of admins aren't gonna let you sit around typing racist expletives or other bullshit in chat very long before kicking or banning you. Overwatch has no such servers, so Blizzard has to go another route to police them.
EDIT- I actually once saw an admin not only ban the player in a Valve multiplayer game, but used the admin option to unbind all the players keys, queue up on all voice, announce the player's name and inform him he was about to do it before doing so and banning him.
In an MMO (outside EVE where you can do the same, and Planetside 1/2)...you grind hours/days/weeks/months...you get amazing items...here comes douche who either is super powerful with max skills, or max level or best items and kills you in one hit and if you hit him its 1 damage or nothing at all. And then he loots everything on your body and then you repeat the grind.
This is why EVE Online is so successful. Start up game, kill people in rookie ship. If you die in rookie ship, you get new rookie ship. But if the other player sucks or you have more PLAYER skill (not character skill) you can win the battle.
Planetside 1/2 of course is more a FPS so you can kill anyone if you are good at FPS games.
Or league of legend style games...its 100% fair, and you work with your team against the same number of other team...best skilled team wins...no grinding hours or months of your life...hop in, play kill people. No overwhelming zerg numbers, no overpowered items, no grinding 1000s of hours, no overpowered characters.
Most sandbox MMOs fail because they don't recreate LoL or Planetside 1/2 or EVE Online.
My Skyrim, Fallout 4, Starbound and WoW + other game mods at MODDB:
https://www.moddb.com/mods/skyrim-anime-overhaul
That's one of the reasons to me it all makes sense, you are not fighting the guy in the next allotment.
I think games become boring when you kill another just because they are a different race. In Everquest I could group with an Ogre as a High Elf. I loved that. For me gaming is about playing together against the monsters and not becoming a monster and slaughtering another race or neighbour or your own race.