We play games for fun right. Why use the word 'tolerate'. You tolerate things you don't like or find unpleasant. Is that the correct litmus for fun?
I think people should just play what they like and should not have to 'tolerate' anything they dislike.
By that litmus I would not be playing any games, there is always something I dislike.
That's sad you're playing games you dislike . I find somethings tedious but I would never stay for a game I dislike unless it was Everquest because it was my first game and I did not have any idea what this genre is like. Now I quit or avoid the parts I dislike. I would never engage in things I dislike unless it is for friends who are playing. For their sake I might stay for awhile but ultimately I would leave.
It's ludicrous to me to play something and I continue playing when so many things chafe my senses. It would be hard although I can understand that you might do that. Perhaps other aspects are so fantastic that the parts you dislike are tolerable but I've yet to come across such a fantastic game that fits that description..
I am really referring to niggles, its just what you decide to call them. Am I fed up now of climbing up towers in AC? Yes, but its not that bad I won't throw the game away for it. There is always something, but if the theme of the game is not for you forget it.
So I never play those treasure (is it?) finding games where you look at pictures and find stuff. But generally I like any puzzle games.
Me too I have small irritating things I don't like too but an actual dislike is not something I can tolerate for long.
Also I don't understand why it is considered weak or dumb to be intolerant of things you should not have to put up with if you don't want to. The OP seems to suggest it is a character flaw of some kind that is related to not being able to tolerate having others destroy what you have built or kill you repeatedly. The point is when I 'tolerate' being killed or having my things destroyed I am not enjoying myself so this tolerance is not to my benefit. The thing @Jean-Luc_Picard is talking about will benefit you the things you put up with in the end because it enables you to play the game. Tolerating being killed and having things I built destroyed does not benefit me in anyway so why should I 'tolerate' such mechanics.
We play games for fun right. Why use the word 'tolerate'. You tolerate things you don't like or find unpleasant. Is that the correct litmus for fun?
I think people should just play what they like and should not have to 'tolerate' anything they dislike.
By that litmus I would not be playing any games, there is always something I dislike.
That's sad you're playing games you dislike . I find somethings tedious but I would never stay for a game I dislike unless it was Everquest because it was my first game and I did not have any idea what this genre is like. Now I quit or avoid the parts I dislike. I would never engage in things I dislike unless it is for friends who are playing. For their sake I might stay for awhile but ultimately I would leave.
It's ludicrous to me to play something and I continue playing when so many things chafe my senses. It would be hard although I can understand that you might do that. Perhaps other aspects are so fantastic that the parts you dislike are tolerable but I've yet to come across such a fantastic game that fits that description..
I am really referring to niggles, its just what you decide to call them. Am I fed up now of climbing up towers in AC? Yes, but its not that bad I won't throw the game away for it. There is always something, but if the theme of the game is not for you forget it.
So I never play those treasure (is it?) finding games where you look at pictures and find stuff. But generally I like any puzzle games.
Me too I have small irritating things I don't like too but an actual dislike is not something I can tolerate for long.
Also I don't understand why it is considered weak or dumb to be intolerant of things you should not have to put up with if you don't want to. The OP seems to suggest it is a character flaw of some kind that is related to not being able to tolerate having others destroy what you have built or kill you repeatedly. The point is when I 'tolerate' being killed or having my things destroyed I am not enjoying myself so this tolerance is not to my benefit. The thing @Jean-Luc_Picard is talking about will benefit you the things you put up with in the end because it enables you to play the game. Tolerating being killed and having things I built destroyed does not benefit me in anyway so why should I 'tolerate' such mechanics.
We have also had people telling us that it somehow means we are afraid of PvP. If you don't like that style of game you just don't like it. I do think though if you are going to come round to liking PvP, then anything like looting, destroying peoples "homes" or really harsh death penalties is a turn off.
In another thread we talked about the game generating "loot" for a player to pick up from people he had taken down. But somehow I don't think this will satisfy them, and for me that's just not cricket.
If people dont like PVP rule sets stay out .. Go to a rulsets that you are comfortable with .. WTF is so hard for some people to get with this
OP is talking about MMORPG players being less tolerant of GRIEFING, you keep talking about PvP rulesets, they are not the same thing.
Just saying.
You realize that you can only be griefed in those rulesets................. just sayin
you cant be griefed in the other .....
If someone does not like the challenges of a pvp game , then play a game that does not permit those activites .. simple as that , if you go into a pvp game .. expect pvp
For some people being killed is the ultimate grief. Doesn't matter the penalty or time cost. I feel MMORPG players want single player level of control in an online environment. Some people are traumatized from 20 years ago and would never accept any PvP.
Yet some of the worst grief for me has come PvE. One of the reasons I avoid grouping because there usually is no recourse for asses wasting time group up. In PvP you can usually use some smarts to avoid being killed. Facing group only content with limited grouping options sucks especially if there is an ass(es) in the group.
For some people being killed is the ultimate grief. Doesn't matter the penalty or time cost. I feel MMORPG players want single player level of control in an online environment. Some people are traumatized from 20 years ago and would never accept any PvP.
Yet some of the worst grief for me has come PvE. One of the reasons I avoid grouping because there usually is no recourse for asses wasting time group up. In PvP you can usually use some smarts to avoid being killed. Facing group only content with limited grouping options sucks especially if there is an ass(es) in the group.
I have never met anyone who thought dying in a PvP game of any sort was worse than losing what they had spent so much time building up such as their armour or home.
PvE has its own version of grief, I agree but that does not help us with the PvP issue.
What are you talking about? You have been watching the news, right? You know very well why people are sick of being bullied and stepped on. Because it's wrong. It's fun for the person doing the bullying but not the person being bullied. What disturbs me is the fact that you needed this explained to you and couldn't figure it out yourself.
If people dont like PVP rule sets stay out .. Go to a rulsets that you are comfortable with .. WTF is so hard for some people to get with this
OP is talking about MMORPG players being less tolerant of GRIEFING, you keep talking about PvP rulesets, they are not the same thing.
Just saying.
You realize that you can only be griefed in those rulesets................. just sayin
you cant be griefed in the other .....
If someone does not like the challenges of a pvp game , then play a game that does not permit those activites .. simple as that , if you go into a pvp game .. expect pvp
Nonsense. If it actually wasn't just me taking most of the risk and it really is a challenge for someone to kill me then I have no problem with "PVP."
But no, in almost every PVP game out there they handicapp the PVEer, either to optimize foGvm r max PVE efficiency or accept punishing disadvantages to be better protected.
Meanwhile PVPer almost always can just fit for max death and destruction, and rarely incur the same level of risk and losses that I routinely have for many years across many games.
I recall once in EVE I made a mistake while hauling 4B in ore to Jita.
Didnt realize how easy hi sec ganking had become (or maybe players just became more knowledgeable) but a pair of cheap tornados alpha killed my hauler and in an almost uncanny manner of luck none of my cargo was destroyed.
So they risked about 250M ISK and few hours of gate camping to net 4B in goods.
Me, I lost roughly 3 weeks of mining effort....oh.yeah that's fair and competitive right.
Yet I went right back and got busy. I adjusted my playstyle, hauling in the heaviest tank fit I could build (used both armor and shields), greatly decreasing my hauling capacity.
Which was fine as I limited myself to only bringing in a billion or so in the final legs, flagging certain systems to avoid and scouting +3 ahead and +2 behind with my 5 accounts even in high sec, not just in null or low sec as I had always done.
But notice, me, the PVEer is doing almost all of the work to adjust my risk and survive.
Those guys in the Tornados, they just refit and got ready to kill the next hauler.
So quit trying to condescendingly lecture on who has the bigger "pair", clearly it's me. (and those like me)
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
And when your son is gathering mats to craft in Ark, he needs to deal with someone 70 levels above him, one shotting him over and over?
No, because that's not how Ark works. That is how MMO griefing works though.
So the problem is the unfair gameplay caused by vertical time/money-related progression.
No, the problem is asshats being asshats.
"I used to think the worst thing in life was to be all alone. It's not. The worst thing in life is to end up with people who make you feel all alone." Robin Williams
If people dont like PVP rule sets stay out .. Go to a rulsets that you are comfortable with .. WTF is so hard for some people to get with this
OP is talking about MMORPG players being less tolerant of GRIEFING, you keep talking about PvP rulesets, they are not the same thing.
Just saying.
You realize that you can only be griefed in those rulesets................. just sayin
you cant be griefed in the other .....
If someone does not like the challenges of a pvp game , then play a game that does not permit those activites .. simple as that , if you go into a pvp game .. expect pvp
Nonsense. If it actually wasn't just me taking most of the risk and it really is a challenge for someone to kill me then I have no problem with "PVP."
But no, in almost every PVP game out there they handicapp the PVEer, either to optimize foGvm r max PVE efficiency or accept punishing disadvantages to be better protected.
Meanwhile PVPer almost always can just fit for max death and destruction, and rarely incur the same level of risk and losses that I routinely have for many years across many games.
I recall once in EVE I made a mistake while hauling 4B in ore to Jita.
Didnt realize how easy hi sec ganking had become (or maybe players just became more knowledgeable) but a pair of cheap tornados alpha killed my hauler and in an almost uncanny manner of luck none of my cargo was destroyed.
So they risked about 250M ISK and few hours of gate camping to net 4B in goods.
Me, I lost roughly 3 weeks of mining effort....oh.yeah that's fair and competitive right.
Yet I went right back and got busy. I adjusted my playstyle, hauling in the heaviest tank fit I could build (used both armor and shields), greatly decreasing my hauling capacity.
Which was fine as I limited myself to only bringing in a billion or so in the final legs, flagging certain systems to avoid and scouting +3 ahead and +2 behind with my 5 accounts even in high sec, not just in null or low sec as I had always done.
But notice, me, the PVEer is doing almost all of the work to adjust my risk and survive.
Those guys in the Tornados, they just refit and got ready to kill the next hauler.
So quit trying to condescendingly lecture on who has the bigger "pair", clearly it's me.
You clearly learned your lesson and adapted in a PVP game .. well done thats what , normal logical people do that enter a compettive PVP game , ADapt and learn ..
Eve is a harsh world and i KNOW you are well aware of this .. You made a mistake tho , and paid the price .. And you are also aware that 90% of Fights in Eve are unbalanced and unfair , As you your self stated as much .In a previous post . If you are in a fair fight in Eve someone is doing something wrong ..
Fair and Competeitive ,, lmfao did you really enter a session of Eve expecting Fair and Competitive , I was certain you knew better ,In a previous post , If you are in a fair fight in Eve someone is doing something wrong ..
If you entered a n Eve session expecting Fair play , i dont know what to say , i thought you would know better .. Just as i would never enter Felucca expecting the Reds to play nice today ..
As far as your balls go , i dont know what you are talking about , never mentioned them or anything at all pertaining to your balls , You brought them into the discussion not me ...
Now onto the actual subject , In what mainstream MMO aside from Eve and UO fel , Where is this happening .. And if anyone is in either of these spaces expecting a happy and fair PVE experience they are simply a fuggin idiot ..
What are all these PVP games where pvers are handicapped .. And if a PVER handicaps themselves knowing they are PVE geared , and step into the PVP arena ,, ohh well for being stupid ..
And besides Eve and UO Fel , what risk is there for any of these PVERs and PVPers .. there is no risk ...
And ill add you have the same exact rule set and opurtunity to turn the tables and do they same to the guys in the tornados that ganked you..Thats what is fair , But if you choose not to play that way , are they supposed to only play in an OPEN world PVP game they you want and expect them to .. really ?
When I first started playing MMO's I'd try everything to see how it was. I'd suffer through some games hoping the end game made it worth it. Now I pretty much know what I like and what I don't and since I don't enjoy griefing either giving or receiving I stay away from those games unless it's zoned or allows flagging, or has some really great escape mechanisms.
"We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." SR Covey
When I first started playing MMO's I'd try everything to see how it was. I'd suffer through some games hoping the end game made it worth it. Now I pretty much know what I like and what I don't and since I don't enjoy griefing either giving or receiving I stay away from those games unless it's zoned or allows flagging, or has some really great escape mechanisms.
and that my entire point in this thread , If people dont like PVP and games that risk everything and being griefed like UO and EVE , Just stay the fuck out of them .. Problem solved you would think , i dont understand all the hurt that goes on here ..
Anyone here go to a restaurant nite after nite that they dont like whats served , or do you adjust your style and go to a restaurant that serves what you like ..
Well guess what the fuck there serving up in a PVP game ... if you dont like it move on ..
Hell , i play LOTRO when i want to chill and just PVE it a great time , (Moors is fun also) But if i dont want to be involved in PVP i dont log into UO fel and walk around E Brit woods hoping to skin some harmless deer ..
They do stay out of them. Eventually someone comes to the forums and says how great the game is and calling everyone that doesn't like it Care Bears and how it's too bad that the game is dying.
A viscious cycle we choose not to be part of.
Post edited by VengeSunsoar on
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
When I first started playing MMO's I'd try everything to see how it was. I'd suffer through some games hoping the end game made it worth it. Now I pretty much know what I like and what I don't and since I don't enjoy griefing either giving or receiving I stay away from those games unless it's zoned or allows flagging, or has some really great escape mechanisms.
and that my entire point in this thread , If people dont like PVP and games that risk everything and being griefed like UO and EVE , Just stay the fuck out of them .. Problem solved you would think , i dont understand all the hurt that goes on here ..
Anyone here go to a restaurant nite after nite that they dont like whats served , or do you adjust your style and go to a restaurant that serves what you like ..
Well guess what the fuck there serving up in a PVP game ... if you dont like it move on ..
Hell , i play LOTRO when i want to chill and just PVE it a great time , (Moors is fun also) But if i dont want to be involved in PVP i dont log into UO fel and walk around E Brit woods hoping to skin some harmless deer ..
Trammel is credited with saving UO (due to the player population reacting to griefers and gankers by QUITTING). The devs there weren't so happy with 'just stay the fuck out', because, you know, they liked to pay their rent.
Folks I know pretty much avoid any non-consensual PvP games. So other folks are going to have to pick up the slack, 'cause we sure aren't. For me this isn't so much an evolved opinion, it's how I did things from the get go.
If you are holding out for the perfect game, the only game you play will be the waiting one.
They do stay out of them. Eventually someone comes to the forums and says how great the game is and calling everyone that doesn't like it Care Bears and how it's too bad that the game is dying.
A viscious cycle we choose not to be okay of.
that is a another subject altogether , but kudos to those smart enough to avoid something they dont like ...
When I first started playing MMO's I'd try everything to see how it was. I'd suffer through some games hoping the end game made it worth it. Now I pretty much know what I like and what I don't and since I don't enjoy griefing either giving or receiving I stay away from those games unless it's zoned or allows flagging, or has some really great escape mechanisms.
and that my entire point in this thread , If people dont like PVP and games that risk everything and being griefed like UO and EVE , Just stay the fuck out of them .. Problem solved you would think , i dont understand all the hurt that goes on here ..
Anyone here go to a restaurant nite after nite that they dont like whats served , or do you adjust your style and go to a restaurant that serves what you like ..
Well guess what the fuck there serving up in a PVP game ... if you dont like it move on ..
Hell , i play LOTRO when i want to chill and just PVE it a great time , (Moors is fun also) But if i dont want to be involved in PVP i dont log into UO fel and walk around E Brit woods hoping to skin some harmless deer ..
Trammel is credited with saving UO (due to the player population reacting to griefers and gankers by QUITTING). The devs there weren't so happy with 'just stay the fuck out', because, you know, they liked to pay their rent.
Folks I know pretty much avoid any non-consensual PvP games. So other folks are going to have to pick up the slack, 'cause we sure aren't. For me this isn't so much an evolved opinion, it's how I did things from the get go.
LMFAO congratulations .. you fucking Win .. Exactly they Made a playground for those who dont like PVP to stay the fuck out of it .. Exactly my point .. Thx for reinforcing it ... wtf
So the devs of UO were smart enough to make a play space so the PVers could stay out of PVP .. Why arent some of the people in this thread smart enough to follow that lead and just stay out of those Ruelsets .. i Just dont get it ..Hell and I stay in Tram alot ... But when i enter Fel i know what to expect and dont cry "Griefer" if i get ganked .. But when there i enjoy it alot , im on my guard and very wary of my surroundings ,Its a very differnet gameplay , and very enjoyable and rewarding ,
Now if Joeydressmaker goes into Fel and gets griefed do we feel bad for him .. No .. He made a concious decision to enter that Ruleset , or is ignorant and stupid and in for a harsh lesson ..
So we all know that UO gave direction for an alternate play space for PVERs .. so why would pVEr go to Fel and expect to be treated the same ..as Tram .. Is he stupid , ignorant or naieve.. you choose ..
The point I was inferring was that UO before Trammel had no choice. And people voted by pulling their dollars. When they had a choice, a big chunk voted Trammel. Hell, I didn't play early UO despite knowing a bunch of folks who worked on it: It was obviously not suited to my playstyle.
For modern games of that ilk, I only play on private servers where access is gated. So I do agree in part. Just seems that the simple lesson of Trammel is forgotten by MMO devs time and again. If you make it easy to grief and gank, better have a good plan to retain customers and their money.
Their monetary loss, not mine.
If you are holding out for the perfect game, the only game you play will be the waiting one.
The point I was inferring was that UO before Trammel had no choice. And people voted by pulling their dollars. When they had a choice, a big chunk voted Trammel. Hell, I didn't play early UO despite knowing a bunch of folks who worked on it: It was obviously not suited to my playstyle.
For modern games of that ilk, I only play on private servers where access is gated. So I do agree in part. Just seems that the simple lesson of Trammel is forgotten by MMO devs time and again. If you make it easy to grief and gank, better have a good plan to retain customers and their money.
Their monetary loss, not mine.
Well the response from devs has been Games like GW2 , ESO , SWTO, BDO .. etc the list goes on and on , there is nor risk/ no loss .. and i agree with why we ended up there ..So the lesson was not forgtten , but the Open World Full Loot PVp as been removed from all games but Eve ... aside from a couple of outlying niche
but it once again reinforces another point i have been trying to make ..
what are the current mainstream MMORPGs that this rampant ganking and griefing is taking place in ..
There isnt one ...................... There are Many many options for folks to play games and NEVER NEVER ever encounter or worry about any such actions ..
And when your son is gathering mats to craft in Ark, he needs to deal with someone 70 levels above him, one shotting him over and over?
No, because that's not how Ark works. That is how MMO griefing works though.
So the problem is the unfair gameplay caused by vertical time/money-related progression.
No, the problem is asshats being asshats.
Everyone is ass when he can. This is tested many times. If people believe there are no consequences they start to act bad. Even very good people. In fact the animals do the same. This is the human nature.
And human nature can be controlled by personal morality and ethics.
"I used to think the worst thing in life was to be all alone. It's not. The worst thing in life is to end up with people who make you feel all alone." Robin Williams
My son plays Ark and they have their bases destroyed and dinos killed. These type of things would horrify the average MMORPG player. Full loot, base destroyed and dinos killed is just something to take in stride. This game does have character development and grinding for buildings.
MMORPG players on the hand seem to hate being killed or grieved even they lose very little. Why is there a stark difference?
Erm... Your son plays this percieved pinnacle of MMO-goodness you seem to miss? There might be a hint of an answer in why your son, not YOU, play the thing?
We dont need casuals in our games!!! Errm... Well we DO need casuals to fund and populate our games - But the games should be all about "hardcore" because: We dont need casuals in our games!!! (repeat ad infinitum)
My son plays Ark and they have their bases destroyed and dinos killed. These type of things would horrify the average MMORPG player. Full loot, base destroyed and dinos killed is just something to take in stride. This game does have character development and grinding for buildings.
MMORPG players on the hand seem to hate being killed or grieved even they lose very little. Why is there a stark difference?
Erm... Your son plays this percieved pinnacle of MMO-goodness you seem to miss? There might be a hint of an answer in why your son, not YOU, play the thing?
Nonsense. If it actually wasn't just me taking most of the risk and it really is a challenge for someone to kill me then I have no problem with "PVP."
But no, in almost every PVP game out there they handicapp the PVEer, either to optimize foGvm r max PVE efficiency or accept punishing disadvantages to be better protected.
Meanwhile PVPer almost always can just fit for max death and destruction, and rarely incur the same level of risk and losses that I routinely have for many years across many games.
I recall once in EVE I made a mistake while hauling 4B in ore to Jita.
Didnt realize how easy hi sec ganking had become (or maybe players just became more knowledgeable) but a pair of cheap tornados alpha killed my hauler and in an almost uncanny manner of luck none of my cargo was destroyed.
So they risked about 250M ISK and few hours of gate camping to net 4B in goods.
Me, I lost roughly 3 weeks of mining effort....oh.yeah that's fair and competitive right.
Yet I went right back and got busy. I adjusted my playstyle, hauling in the heaviest tank fit I could build (used both armor and shields), greatly decreasing my hauling capacity.
Which was fine as I limited myself to only bringing in a billion or so in the final legs, flagging certain systems to avoid and scouting +3 ahead and +2 behind with my 5 accounts even in high sec, not just in null or low sec as I had always done.
But notice, me, the PVEer is doing almost all of the work to adjust my risk and survive.
Those guys in the Tornados, they just refit and got ready to kill the next hauler.
So quit trying to condescendingly lecture on who has the bigger "pair", clearly it's me.
What means PvEer in PvP game? So the game shall let you play solo and take advantage safe? In fact I think you played at some of the right ways. Obviously you also could make/join a corp and retaliate.
Obviously the other fix is to remove the PvP from EVE and to let the solo players farm safe, and compete in some instance. A possible solution. Will you play EVE then?
No, I'm a somewhat more rare form of carebear, I enjoy the extra challenge of sucessfully completing my PVE centric efforts in a hostile setting as long as I have a fair chance to evade which EVE clearly provides.
Even the gank in my example was totally avoidable, I just had lived in null sec so long I was unaware how "proficient" gankers had become in recent years.
This largely due to a change in mechanics, in earlier day ganking in high sec damaged a players sec status so severely it take them w0eeks of grinding rats in null sec to work it off, which discouraged many would be gankers.
Now they can prepurchase an item in station to magically erase their bad sec status. This quick return greatly increased player willingness to gank which CCP implicitly supports.
Regardless, Scorch is correct in his thinking, I go into PVP games expecting other players to behave differently than I so I don't cry foul when I get killed.
Well except perhaps when my own corp and alliance mates give me a rash of crap for losing a ship, that pisses me off, though even then I understand why they do it.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Children don't value their time and progression the same way as most adults do, hence the popularity of minecraft, ark and others among their age group.
For them, there is always another tomorrow, while adults come to understand with each passing year how untrue that really is.
Some adults don't value their time very much either, judging from the many bad games they'll play.
Conversely, adults are more able to handle setbacks, and tend to enjoy long term investment more.
Ark is a game with very heavy (time) investment requirements. I suspect its popularity among children is in spite of that.
Id be surprised if your implication were true, that adults on average have LESS patience and enjoy less investment. Id posit it would be due to an unnatural infantilization.
What are you talking about? You have been watching the news, right? You know very well why people are sick of being bullied and stepped on. Because it's wrong. It's fun for the person doing the bullying but not the person being bullied. What disturbs me is the fact that you needed this explained to you and couldn't figure it out yourself.
What are YOU talking about? We are talking about entertainment. I feel bad if that's how you feel about grief in game.
Tolerance is required in most games to enjoy them because most aren't perfect. The whole point is that MMORPG players seem less tolerant of grief in similiar situations than other gamers. No more no less.
We play games for fun right. Why use the word 'tolerate'. You tolerate things you don't like or find unpleasant. Is that the correct litmus for fun?
I think people should just play what they like and should not have to 'tolerate' anything they dislike.
By that litmus I would not be playing any games, there is always something I dislike.
That's sad you're playing games you dislike . I find somethings tedious but I would never stay for a game I dislike unless it was Everquest because it was my first game and I did not have any idea what this genre is like. Now I quit or avoid the parts I dislike. I would never engage in things I dislike unless it is for friends who are playing. For their sake I might stay for awhile but ultimately I would leave.
It's ludicrous to me to play something and I continue playing when so many things chafe my senses. It would be hard although I can understand that you might do that. Perhaps other aspects are so fantastic that the parts you dislike are tolerable but I've yet to come across such a fantastic game that fits that description..
What Scot meant is that in every game, there will be things you dislike, or at least like much less that the rest.
For instance, I like ESO a lot, I'm having a blast playing, but I dislike the zoning and would have preferred a seamless world like BDO. Also, I prefer adventuring, exploring the world and completing epic quests, but I also engage in activities I like less like crafting dailies.
Having to craft 2 rings and one necklace every day and put them in a box, which takes about 2 minutes maximum, that is something I tolerate.
Being ganked as a newbie as soon as I leave a town, without any chance to fight back, is something I tolerated back then in pre-trammel UO because there was no other such game on the market and it was the best choice, but that I wouldn't tolerate nowadays. I'd just play another, better designed game.
Also, if I may add on to this, @Jean-Luc_Picard, I enjoy the ups AND downs in a game. It's the contrast that I look for. If I played "the perfect game", I'd be bored silly as everything went just as planned, perfectly.
In the end, it's weighing the good with the bad. As long as the good outweighs the bad, I'm still playing
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
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Also I don't understand why it is considered weak or dumb to be intolerant of things you should not have to put up with if you don't want to. The OP seems to suggest it is a character flaw of some kind that is related to not being able to tolerate having others destroy what you have built or kill you repeatedly. The point is when I 'tolerate' being killed or having my things destroyed I am not enjoying myself so this tolerance is not to my benefit. The thing @Jean-Luc_Picard is talking about will benefit you the things you put up with in the end because it enables you to play the game. Tolerating being killed and having things I built destroyed does not benefit me in anyway so why should I 'tolerate' such mechanics.
In another thread we talked about the game generating "loot" for a player to pick up from people he had taken down. But somehow I don't think this will satisfy them, and for me that's just not cricket.
Yet some of the worst grief for me has come PvE. One of the reasons I avoid grouping because there usually is no recourse for asses wasting time group up. In PvP you can usually use some smarts to avoid being killed. Facing group only content with limited grouping options sucks especially if there is an ass(es) in the group.
PvE has its own version of grief, I agree but that does not help us with the PvP issue.
No, because that's not how Ark works. That is how MMO griefing works though.
But no, in almost every PVP game out there they handicapp the PVEer, either to optimize foGvm
r max PVE efficiency or accept punishing disadvantages to be better protected.
Meanwhile PVPer almost always can just fit for max death and destruction, and rarely incur the same level of risk and losses that I routinely have for many years across many games.
I recall once in EVE I made a mistake while hauling 4B in ore to Jita.
Didnt realize how easy hi sec ganking had become (or maybe players just became more knowledgeable) but a pair of cheap tornados alpha killed my hauler and in an almost uncanny manner of luck none of my cargo was destroyed.
So they risked about 250M ISK and few hours of gate camping to net 4B in goods.
Me, I lost roughly 3 weeks of mining effort....oh.yeah that's fair and competitive right.
Yet I went right back and got busy. I adjusted my playstyle, hauling in the heaviest tank fit I could build (used both armor and shields), greatly decreasing my hauling capacity.
Which was fine as I limited myself to only bringing in a billion or so in the final legs, flagging certain systems to avoid and scouting +3 ahead and +2 behind with my 5 accounts even in high sec, not just in null or low sec as I had always done.
But notice, me, the PVEer is doing almost all of the work to adjust my risk and survive.
Those guys in the Tornados, they just refit and got ready to kill the next hauler.
So quit trying to condescendingly lecture on who has the bigger "pair", clearly it's me. (and those like me)
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
"We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." SR Covey
A viscious cycle we choose not to be part of.
Folks I know pretty much avoid any non-consensual PvP games. So other folks are going to have to pick up the slack, 'cause we sure aren't. For me this isn't so much an evolved opinion, it's how I did things from the get go.
If you are holding out for the perfect game, the only game you play will be the waiting one.
For modern games of that ilk, I only play on private servers where access is gated. So I do agree in part. Just seems that the simple lesson of Trammel is forgotten by MMO devs time and again. If you make it easy to grief and gank, better have a good plan to retain customers and their money.
Their monetary loss, not mine.
If you are holding out for the perfect game, the only game you play will be the waiting one.
There might be a hint of an answer in why your son, not YOU, play the thing?
We dont need casuals in our games!!! Errm... Well we DO need casuals to fund and populate our games - But the games should be all about "hardcore" because: We dont need casuals in our games!!!
(repeat ad infinitum)
Even the gank in my example was totally avoidable, I just had lived in null sec so long I was unaware how "proficient" gankers had become in recent years.
This largely due to a change in mechanics, in earlier day ganking in high sec damaged a players sec status so severely it take them w0eeks of grinding rats in null sec to work it off, which discouraged many would be gankers.
Now they can prepurchase an item in station to magically erase their bad sec status. This quick return greatly increased player willingness to gank which CCP implicitly supports.
Regardless, Scorch is correct in his thinking, I go into PVP games expecting other players to behave differently than I so I don't cry foul when I get killed.
Well except perhaps when my own corp and alliance mates give me a rash of crap for losing a ship, that pisses me off, though even then I understand why they do it.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Ark is a game with very heavy (time) investment requirements. I suspect its popularity among children is in spite of that.
Id be surprised if your implication were true, that adults on average have LESS patience and enjoy less investment. Id posit it would be due to an unnatural infantilization.
Tolerance is required in most games to enjoy them because most aren't perfect. The whole point is that MMORPG players seem less tolerant of grief in similiar situations than other gamers. No more no less.
In the end, it's weighing the good with the bad. As long as the good outweighs the bad, I'm still playing
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR