When will Caspien get realistic?

Slapshot1188

Back in October, on these very forums... Caspien said his team was now back on (the new) track for timeline (July 2017). He even directly stated:

"All that aside, the company is making huge progress, the game is coming along nicely, and our Alpha 1 backers will be getting into the game using the VoxElyria client as early as January."

Since that post, they have laid off staff, publicly stated that Store Bought items can be used AFTER launch, stated that they replaced all they needed from SpatialOS and yet STILL have not had Alpha 1 Backers into their pre-alpha VoxElyria game.   It's now 9 months after his post.  

Publicly, as far as I know... he is still saying that they are pretty much on the timeline below:

1. V3 of the Website (Q3 2017)
2. ElyriaMUD (Q4 2017)
3. Alpha 1 (T1 2018)
4. Server Selection (T1 2018)
5. Settlement / Domain Selection (T2 2018)
6. KoE (T2 2018)
7. Design Experiences (T3 2018)
8. Alpha 2 (T3 2018)
9. Beta 1 (S1 2019)
10. Prologue & CoE Adventure Toolkit (S1 2019)
11. Exposition (S1 2019)
12. Beta 2 (S1/S2 2019)
13. Stress Test (Any paid account)(S2 2019)
14. Launch (S2 2019)

They should have done ElyriaMud (now Vox Elyria), Alpha 1, Server Selection, Settlement/Domain selection and KoE by now.  They should be ramping up for Alpha 2.

Instead, they are still stuck before #2 on the list.   I mean, he even skipped the July State of Elyria this year IMHO just to avoid the obvious elephant in the room...

Putting your head in the sand has NEVER been the way that problems get resolved.

I'll go back to my response from October:

The problem isn't the MMORPG forums. 

The problem is that your game was supposed to be in 3 month no wipe Headstart now and full release by the end of the year.  Instead you have released nothing except more and more monetization items.  Maybe by January (per your post) people will have a client to move their minecraft figures around.  If... instead of blaming everyone else... you actually did what you said and had launched your game's Exposition by now.. there wouldn't be a need to blame anyone.  But since you're  now saying you will be 2 years late.  That's on you.   Suck it up, stop deflecting, do what you promise and guess what.  All the complaints go away.

and

I mean... the discussion starts and ends with the fact that they said they would be fully launching the game around now.  They were told how unrealistic that was.  They actually went and mocked the people who told them this.  To date: 

They have not launched... 
they haven't had their 3 month Headstart... 
they haven't had Beta 2... 
They haven't had Beta 1...
 They haven't had Alpha 2...
They haven't had Alpha 1...
They haven't had the Prologue
They haven't had the Kingdoms Game
They haven't had the Mud 
They haven't actually done ANY of that which was supposed to be done

They HAVE sold things
Sold more things
Decided to find new ways to sell the same things
Announced they will sell more things
Promised to allow people to buy DLC for the Prologue
This all ties into the OP because they wouldn't need such crazy monetization if they had been launching now.  Because their timeline more than doubled they need to find the cash to fund it.


Nine months later and that exact quote still applies. When will he just get realistic?

Slapshot1188

@JeromyWalsh Feel free to use this thread to give a realistic update on your expected timeline and release date.  It's the least you can do for a customer base that gave you $4.6M so far.   Don't you agree?

I mean, there should be SOME minimal level of accountability right?

Mendel

At least, can we get a glimpse at the lunch menu.  $4.6M US should do quite a nice spread for a sizable crew for quite a few consecutive days.  You are tipping 18% or better, right?  ($838,000 is 18% -- I did the math for you).

Albatroes

I'm thinking something crazy but what if they aren't really planning to make a game?

Dakeru

In all fairness Slap, I think going for the ostrich approach really isn't that bad of an idea for him currently.
It's probably better to come out with at least.. something.. before surfacing again.

Funny Fact:
The whole Price - Deroir ordeal reminded me of you.
How many games would have been safed (or at least fully released) if they had considered your input, rather than seeing you as "that guy who spoke up on our private internet space without being asked"?

Iselin

Dakeru said:

In all fairness Slap, I think going for the ostrich approach really isn't that bad of an idea for him currently.
It's probably better to come out with at least.. something.. before surfacing again.

Funny Fact:
The whole Price - Deroir ordeal reminded me of you.
How many games would have been safed (or at least fully released) if they had considered your input, rather than seeing you as "that guy who spoke up on our private internet space without being asked"?

The way Slappy is always calling Caspien out makes him some kind of *ist. Maybe a WASPist

Slapshot1188

Albatroes said:

I'm thinking something crazy but what if they aren't really planning to make a game?

See, I totally think he believes what he says.  It’s just been pure incompetence and not an intentional scam IMHO.

Kyleran

Might surprise some here, but I think Caspian should just stay dark on the overall timeline.

None of us are great at predicting the future, but we can be more accurate in near term events.

He should publish a clear timeline for key deliverables in the next 3 to 6 months, no further.

They should be very realistic, based on all known risks, and I'd recommend using only the pessimistic view.

Mark Jacobs missed the July 4th beta one after about a two year delay on it.  Unforseen events and code quality issues as reasons, perhaps valid,  maybe not.

Point is if an experienced industry vet known for being more honest and open than most struggles after 5 plus years to hit even one date, much less publish a full delivery time line why would we expect JW to be able to?

BTW, Mark went mostly dark on times several years ago, wasn't until this past Jan he gave everyone the July date with a promise of release by end of 2019 if all went well. 

FlyinDutchman87

vaporware.....

They just couldn't get the funding they needed. Time to pack it in. 

Slapshot1188

Kyleran said:

Might surprise some here, but I think Caspian should just stay dark on the overall timeline.

None of us are great at predicting the future, but we can be more accurate in near term events.

He should publish a clear timeline for key deliverables in the next 3 to 6 months, no further.

They should be very realistic, based on all known risks, and I'd recommend using only the pessimistic view.

Mark Jacobs missed the July 4th beta one after about a two year delay on it.  Unforseen events and code quality issues as reasons, perhaps valid,  maybe not.

Point is if an experienced industry vet known for being more honest and open than most struggles after 5 plus years to hit even one date, much less publish a full delivery time line why would we expect JW to be able to?

BTW, Mark went mostly dark on times several years ago, wasn't until this past Jan he gave everyone the July date with a promise of release by end of 2019 if all went well. 

I expect people to do what they say they will do.  That goes for MJ as well as Caspien.  The difference is that MJ is giving refunds to people and Caspien is just holding sale after sale.  But heck if someone is pissed about CU being delayed they should go get their refund.   Try that with CoE and let me know how it goes.

That also applies to "going dark".  Sorry, but there needs to be some accountability.  You can't just "go dark" when you have taken people's money, refuse refunds and are literally years late on your delivery.  

daarco

Relax, either it will be released sometime or it will not.
People may or may not freely invest some money into something they belive in.
Not much to argue about.

Kyleran

Slapshot1188 said:

Kyleran said:

Might surprise some here, but I think Caspian should just stay dark on the overall timeline.

None of us are great at predicting the future, but we can be more accurate in near term events.

He should publish a clear timeline for key deliverables in the next 3 to 6 months, no further.

They should be very realistic, based on all known risks, and I'd recommend using only the pessimistic view.

Mark Jacobs missed the July 4th beta one after about a two year delay on it.  Unforseen events and code quality issues as reasons, perhaps valid,  maybe not.

Point is if an experienced industry vet known for being more honest and open than most struggles after 5 plus years to hit even one date, much less publish a full delivery time line why would we expect JW to be able to?

BTW, Mark went mostly dark on times several years ago, wasn't until this past Jan he gave everyone the July date with a promise of release by end of 2019 if all went well. 

I expect people to do what they say they will do.  That goes for MJ as well as Caspien.  The difference is that MJ is giving refunds to people and Caspien is just holding sale after sale.  But heck if someone is pissed about CU being delayed they should go get their refund.   Try that with CoE and let me know how it goes.

That also applies to "going dark".  Sorry, but there needs to be some accountability.  You can't just "go dark" when you have taken people's money, refuse refunds and are literally years late on your delivery.  

Actually, legally he can....as long as there is some evidence of continuing activity, he is meeting KS's terms. 

As for sales in his store,  he clearly states no refunds.

Refunds are nice to have, but optional except where required by law.l

Mike-McQueen

The Chronicle 2.0

Wizardry

The major problem with this game has been from day 1...deceptive practices.

A video game that involves money NEEDS to be 100% fair across the board,that pretty much eliminates now a day standards for crowd funding.

If it was done totally honest,no perks for being a backer and NO cash shop,i might have stayed interested.
The whole idea of a crowd funded game is you GIVE money because you feel it is worth it and NOT a simple cash shop purchase to one up on other potential customers.

The combination that is crowd funded gaming is deception to entice,bait in people to give them money and the result is a sloppy system/design that is based on GUESSING how much money will be there.
Crowd funding is imo a definitive answer to FAIL,look at SC,that amount of crowd funding by Robert's own words is worth about 2-5x,so we are talking 300+ million and he has a game that looks like an over night Indie project.Crowd funding can NOT work,it is a terrible idea that is simply there to scam people out of their money.

Slapshot1188

Kyleran said:

Slapshot1188 said:

Kyleran said:

Might surprise some here, but I think Caspian should just stay dark on the overall timeline.

None of us are great at predicting the future, but we can be more accurate in near term events.

He should publish a clear timeline for key deliverables in the next 3 to 6 months, no further.

They should be very realistic, based on all known risks, and I'd recommend using only the pessimistic view.

Mark Jacobs missed the July 4th beta one after about a two year delay on it.  Unforseen events and code quality issues as reasons, perhaps valid,  maybe not.

Point is if an experienced industry vet known for being more honest and open than most struggles after 5 plus years to hit even one date, much less publish a full delivery time line why would we expect JW to be able to?

BTW, Mark went mostly dark on times several years ago, wasn't until this past Jan he gave everyone the July date with a promise of release by end of 2019 if all went well. 

I expect people to do what they say they will do.  That goes for MJ as well as Caspien.  The difference is that MJ is giving refunds to people and Caspien is just holding sale after sale.  But heck if someone is pissed about CU being delayed they should go get their refund.   Try that with CoE and let me know how it goes.

That also applies to "going dark".  Sorry, but there needs to be some accountability.  You can't just "go dark" when you have taken people's money, refuse refunds and are literally years late on your delivery.  

Actually, legally he can....as long as there is some evidence of continuing activity, he is meeting KS's terms. 

As for sales in his store,  he clearly states no refunds.

Refunds are nice to have, but optional except where required by law.l

Yeah.. I understand there is no law requiring it.  Simply saying that when you take $4.6M in people's money (and won't give it back) and are so ridiculously behind schedule that there needs to be some sort of accountability.  Going Dark is just IMHO the absolutely worst thing you can do.

Kyleran

Slapshot1188 said:

Kyleran said:

Slapshot1188 said:

Kyleran said:

Might surprise some here, but I think Caspian should just stay dark on the overall timeline.

None of us are great at predicting the future, but we can be more accurate in near term events.

He should publish a clear timeline for key deliverables in the next 3 to 6 months, no further.

They should be very realistic, based on all known risks, and I'd recommend using only the pessimistic view.

Mark Jacobs missed the July 4th beta one after about a two year delay on it.  Unforseen events and code quality issues as reasons, perhaps valid,  maybe not.

Point is if an experienced industry vet known for being more honest and open than most struggles after 5 plus years to hit even one date, much less publish a full delivery time line why would we expect JW to be able to?

BTW, Mark went mostly dark on times several years ago, wasn't until this past Jan he gave everyone the July date with a promise of release by end of 2019 if all went well. 

I expect people to do what they say they will do.  That goes for MJ as well as Caspien.  The difference is that MJ is giving refunds to people and Caspien is just holding sale after sale.  But heck if someone is pissed about CU being delayed they should go get their refund.   Try that with CoE and let me know how it goes.

That also applies to "going dark".  Sorry, but there needs to be some accountability.  You can't just "go dark" when you have taken people's money, refuse refunds and are literally years late on your delivery.  

Actually, legally he can....as long as there is some evidence of continuing activity, he is meeting KS's terms. 

As for sales in his store,  he clearly states no refunds.

Refunds are nice to have, but optional except where required by law.l

Yeah.. I understand there is no law requiring it.  Simply saying that when you take $4.6M in people's money (and won't give it back) and are so ridiculously behind schedule that there needs to be some sort of accountability.  Going Dark is just IMHO the absolutely worst thing you can do.

Not if there isn't any good news to tell.

MadFrenchie

He can go dark so long as the timeline doesn't get to the point where it unfairly prejudices backers.  It's actually a question that hasn't really been answered by the courts yet.  At what point is a timeline so grossly inaccurate as to constitute misleading backers into pledging based on false information?

Nilden

MadFrenchie said:

He can go dark so long as the timeline doesn't get to the point where it unfairly prejudices backers.  It's actually a question that hasn't really been answered by the courts yet.  At what point is a timeline so grossly inaccurate as to constitute misleading backers into pledging based on false information?

Fangrim

The game where the backers die of old age before it's released. Why anyone would want to play an MMORPG with ageing and permanent death in it is beyond me anyway.

Ungood

Oh look.. Slapshot it pissing on CoE again.. is it Tuesday already?

Interitus

Honestly most kickstarter games (MMO or not) go past their schedule.   There are certainly aspects of CoE that you could argue if they are achievable with the resources they have. Thus asking Caspian to be realistic. But going after the schedule being wrong is a lazy fight.

Albatroes

Slapshot1188 said:

Albatroes said:

I'm thinking something crazy but what if they aren't really planning to make a game?

See, I totally think he believes what he says.  It’s just been pure incompetence and not an intentional scam IMHO.

Idk man. All these "delays" and not being completely upfront about what the KS was actually for until a later date sends too many signals to me, like that guy who "tried" to develop divergence online or whatever. That guy opened up a KS like once a year or something, getting between 50-100k each time then claiming he couldn't "finish" the project, even going as far to change the name once or twice to get money from gullibles. To me, Caspien is just trying to ride this thing out as long as he can until there's nothing left to milk.

Azaron_Nightblade

KS MMO.
At the very least massive delays are to be expected. Provided we ever see a full game at all.

Lokero

Albatroes said:

Slapshot1188 said:

Albatroes said:

I'm thinking something crazy but what if they aren't really planning to make a game?

See, I totally think he believes what he says.  It’s just been pure incompetence and not an intentional scam IMHO.

Idk man. All these "delays" and not being completely upfront about what the KS was actually for until a later date sends too many signals to me, like that guy who "tried" to develop divergence online or whatever. That guy opened up a KS like once a year or something, getting between 50-100k each time then claiming he couldn't "finish" the project, even going as far to change the name once or twice to get money from gullibles. To me, Caspien is just trying to ride this thing out as long as he can until there's nothing left to milk.

I'm with Slap on this one.

I have absolutely no faith in the CoE project, but I fully believe that Caspien genuinely wants to make the game and is passionate about it.

I think he's just completely in over his head and has no clue what he's doing or how to actually lead such a big project.(read: incompetent)

I think he's a delusional dreamer, but that he's (trying to)following that dream

Slapshot1188

Lokero said:

Albatroes said:

Slapshot1188 said:

Albatroes said:

I'm thinking something crazy but what if they aren't really planning to make a game?

See, I totally think he believes what he says.  It’s just been pure incompetence and not an intentional scam IMHO.

Idk man. All these "delays" and not being completely upfront about what the KS was actually for until a later date sends too many signals to me, like that guy who "tried" to develop divergence online or whatever. That guy opened up a KS like once a year or something, getting between 50-100k each time then claiming he couldn't "finish" the project, even going as far to change the name once or twice to get money from gullibles. To me, Caspien is just trying to ride this thing out as long as he can until there's nothing left to milk.

I'm with Slap on this one.

I have absolutely no faith in the CoE project, but I fully believe that Caspien genuinely wants to make the game and is passionate about it.

I think he's just completely in over his head and has no clue what he's doing or how to actually lead such a big project.(read: incompetent)

I think he's a delusional dreamer, but that he's (trying to)following that dream

Yup.  IMHO the root problem is his inability to admit reality.  I think a perfect example was the SpatialOS thing.  One month he’s talking about how great it is and then a month or two later he announces that they had to ditch it, but not to worry because he had already replaced most of its functionality with off the shelf stuff. This was the software he called the fabric the game was built on.  It was announced as the answer to all doubters, yet no big deal to replace it.  

It was his chance to just come clean.  Now here we are...7-8 months later... still waiting on the start of the pre-Alpha VoxElyria.  Still touting the line that All Is Well... just like the Captain of the Titanic. He reminds me of Brad McQuaid in many ways.  Some folks are just not meant to be the CEO. Let them dream, but let someone else run the business.


PS- Welcome back Mystic

Ungood

Albatroes said:

I'm thinking something crazy but what if they aren't really planning to make a game?

I believe that they are sincerely trying to make a game,  which is why they have still kept their loyalty base as it where. There is something about a passionate dream that makes you want to root for and believe in them.

JW has bet his house, and many others on his team have no doubt taken pay cuts and bet their dependable jobs for this venture, just as a new studio, they really don't have the experience to understand what they have gotten into, and have put unrealistic expectations on what they could accomplish.

Much in the same way I have seen people bid on projects, and while  my employer wanted to take them because they were a low price and offered a good completion date, I had to flatly turn them down, because it was clear from their bid, that they really had no idea what the project entailed.

Happens with many "dollar and a dream" businesses, no surprise to me that it would happen with KS MMO's.

But.. I still wish them the best.