WoW's Game Director On BfA's Pre-Event; Metzen on Toxic Nerd Culture - World of Warcraft - MMORPG.co

SBFord

WoW's Game Director On BfA's Pre-Event; Metzen on Toxic Nerd Culture - World of Warcraft - MMORPG.com

World of Warcraft News - A pair of interesting interviews about World of Warcraft: Battle for Azeroth have cropped up, one with Game Director Ion Hazzikostas and John Hight about the drama and issues around the expansion pre-event. The other is with former Blizzard developer Chris Metzen on the issue of nerd toxicity.

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Albatroes

To translate Metzen's words: I always knew that a large part of our playerbase was either 12 yr olds or middle aged nerds with the minds of 12 yr olds that's why I loved it when they added the popcorn toy.

Margrave

And just like that, Metzen insured that I will not be returning to WoW.

What atrocious customer relations he has.

Never a good idea to call customers, former, potential, or otherwise, names.

I will not return as long as he continues to write for them.

He's just upset that his little narrative wasn't loved by all. He showed what he's made of with this. I thought it would have been sterner stuff.

MadFrenchie

It's not just nerd rage online, this is a very human trait, unfortunately.  It's not unique to gamers, either.  The internet has just given a very large forum to those people (as well as all other types).


You guys remember the principal from Ferris Bueller's Day Off?  Yea, that guy got harassed in person back in the 80s for his work as the "bad guy."

SBFord

Margrave said:

And just like that, Metzen insured that I will not be returning to WoW.

What atrocious customer relations he has.

Never a good idea to call customers, former, potential, or otherwise, names.

I will not return as long as he continues to write for them.

He's just upset that his little narrative wasn't loved by all. He showed what he's made of with this. I thought it would have been sterner stuff.

You do realize that Metzen retired at least a couple years ago and doesn't write for them any more?

Holdslowhope

Margrave said:

And just like that, Metzen insured that I will not be returning to WoW.



What atrocious customer relations he has.



Never a good idea to call customers, former, potential, or otherwise, names.



I will not return as long as he continues to write for them.



He's just upset that his little narrative wasn't loved by all. He showed what he's made of with this. I thought it would have been sterner stuff.

Do you need a safe place?

Sovrath

MisterZebub said:

SBFord said:

Margrave said:

And just like that, Metzen insured that I will not be returning to WoW.


What atrocious customer relations he has.


Never a good idea to call customers, former, potential, or otherwise, names.


I will not return as long as he continues to write for them.


He's just upset that his little narrative wasn't loved by all. He showed what he's made of with this. I thought it would have been sterner stuff.

You do realize that Metzen retired at least a couple years ago and doesn't write for them any more?

Rabble rabble rabble...... Huh? Oh.... Well I guess we're going back to Wow! "oh you go pack your panties and I'll go pack my scanties and away we'll go, whoa oh oh"

In all seriousness this kind of shit is why I'm taking a vacation from gaming. If the brunt of the player base is seen, or actually are, a bunch of juvenile jerks and are therefore held in contempt, why the hell continue to participate in this tired little circus. Maybe it's time we all just called it a day and found other avenues of entertainment/employment.

And that's why I don't tell people I play video games. "Regular people" see them as a haven for "juvenile jerks", toxic nerds, etc.

Why would I want to be associated with that? Oh, I know there are a LOT of regular, great people who play video games. But when a segment of the population taints the hobby because they are so "in your face" then makes it so that I don't want to be a part of it.

vanderghast

Margrave said:

Never a good idea to call customers, former, potential, or otherwise, names.

This mentality is exactly what's wrong. This absurd notion that the customer is in any way 'right' or entitled to anything. The only thing you are entitled to is choosing if you want to patronize a product with your money. Don't like the product? Don't buy it.

This whiney "you can't treat a customer this way" attitude IS the problem. You aren't special. Your measly 14 bucks a month doesn't entitle you to anything.

Frankly, i'd love to work for a company that allowed its reps to talk to people like you honestly.

If your customer is acting like a whiney little child, calling them out isn't a bad thing. Spending money on a product doesn't give you a license to act like an ass.

Aeander

Sovrath said:

MisterZebub said:

SBFord said:

Margrave said:

And just like that, Metzen insured that I will not be returning to WoW.


What atrocious customer relations he has.


Never a good idea to call customers, former, potential, or otherwise, names.


I will not return as long as he continues to write for them.


He's just upset that his little narrative wasn't loved by all. He showed what he's made of with this. I thought it would have been sterner stuff.

You do realize that Metzen retired at least a couple years ago and doesn't write for them any more?

Rabble rabble rabble...... Huh? Oh.... Well I guess we're going back to Wow! "oh you go pack your panties and I'll go pack my scanties and away we'll go, whoa oh oh"

In all seriousness this kind of shit is why I'm taking a vacation from gaming. If the brunt of the player base is seen, or actually are, a bunch of juvenile jerks and are therefore held in contempt, why the hell continue to participate in this tired little circus. Maybe it's time we all just called it a day and found other avenues of entertainment/employment.

And that's why I don't tell people I play video games. "Regular people" see them as a haven for "juvenile jerks", toxic nerds, etc.

Why would I want to be associated with that? Oh, I know there are a LOT of regular, great people who play video games. But when a segment of the population taints the hobby because they are so "in your face" then makes it so that I don't want to be a part of it.

That's not how I see it. The way I see it, the "regular people" hold such contempt for intelligent people and shut-ins - the stereotypical nerds, that they will take any opportunity to justify their bias. A few bad apples suddenly become representative of the whole community, because that makes us a convenient scape goat and foot stool for the same people who historically looked down on most of us. It's hard not to view these things as a continuation of high school cliques, in a sense. 

MadFrenchie

vanderghast said:

Margrave said:

Never a good idea to call customers, former, potential, or otherwise, names.

This mentality is exactly what's wrong. This absurd notion that the customer is in any way 'right' or entitled to anything. The only thing you are entitled to is choosing if you want to patronize a product with your money. Don't like the product? Don't buy it.

This whiney "you can't treat a customer this way" attitude IS the problem. You aren't special. Your measly 14 bucks a month doesn't entitle you to anything.

Frankly, i'd love to work for a company that allowed its reps to talk to people like you honestly.

If your customer is acting like a whiney little child, calling them out isn't a bad thing. Spending money on a product doesn't give you a license to act like an ass.

You wouldn't work there long, because the company wouldn't be very successful.

Even if a customer is acting like an ass, there's always something insightful to be gleaned from examining the complaints.  

"Your most unhappy customers are your greatest source of learning." - Bill Gates

Xasapis

vanderghast said:

Margrave said:

Never a good idea to call customers, former, potential, or otherwise, names.

This mentality is exactly what's wrong. This absurd notion that the customer is in any way 'right' or entitled to anything. The only thing you are entitled to is choosing if you want to patronize a product with your money. Don't like the product? Don't buy it.

This whiney "you can't treat a customer this way" attitude IS the problem. You aren't special. Your measly 14 bucks a month doesn't entitle you to anything.

Frankly, i'd love to work for a company that allowed its reps to talk to people like you honestly.

If your customer is acting like a whiney little child, calling them out isn't a bad thing. Spending money on a product doesn't give you a license to act like an ass.

Here's a novel thought. Game professionals need you, the gamer. You don't need them.

Behaving with anything less than a professional curtsy towards paying customers (amount is irrelevant, what you asked is what you got), is the epitome of entitlement. Expecting them to remain customers is merely a sign of an abusive relationship that certain people think is sustainable.

In the case of Blizzard, I believe they lost control when they started implemented completely unnecessary tools, that were used to stifle any meaningful player interaction.

I do agree with your last paragraph. It however works both ways.

Nibs

Xasapis said:

vanderghast said:

Margrave said:

Never a good idea to call customers, former, potential, or otherwise, names.

This mentality is exactly what's wrong. This absurd notion that the customer is in any way 'right' or entitled to anything. The only thing you are entitled to is choosing if you want to patronize a product with your money. Don't like the product? Don't buy it.

This whiney "you can't treat a customer this way" attitude IS the problem. You aren't special. Your measly 14 bucks a month doesn't entitle you to anything.

Frankly, i'd love to work for a company that allowed its reps to talk to people like you honestly.

If your customer is acting like a whiney little child, calling them out isn't a bad thing. Spending money on a product doesn't give you a license to act like an ass.

Here's a novel thought. Game professionals need you, the gamer. You don't need them.

Behaving with anything less than a professional curtsy towards paying customers (amount is irrelevant, what you asked is what you got), is the epitome of entitlement. Expecting them to remain customers is merely a sign of an abusive relationship that certain people think is sustainable.

In the case of Blizzard, I believe they lost control when they started implemented completely unnecessary tools, that were used to stifle any meaningful player interaction.

I do agree with your last paragraph. It however works both ways.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ceS_jkKjIgo

laserit

MisterZebub said:

MadFrenchie said:

It's not just nerd rage online, this is a very human trait, unfortunately.  It's not unique to gamers, either.  The internet has just given a very large forum to those people (as well as all other types).


You guys remember the principal from Ferris Bueller's Day Off?  Yea, that guy got harassed in person back in the 80s for his work as the "bad guy."

Larry Hagman stated that back when played J. R. Ewing Jr. On the soap opera Dallas he was attacked and hit over the head by angry little old ladies on more than one occasion because his character was such a bastard. He said "it hurt! In Texas little old ladies carry guns in their purses."

You really have to feel for that guy who played Joffrey Baratheon 

Aeander

Ultimately, contempt breeds contempt. The best communities are made by studios which respect their customers (ie Digital Extremes' Warframe). Gamers don't take kindly to contempt, but they do typically reciprocate respect. 

FrodoFragins

Margrave said:

And just like that, Metzen insured that I will not be returning to WoW.



What atrocious customer relations he has.



Never a good idea to call customers, former, potential, or otherwise, names.



I will not return as long as he continues to write for them.



He's just upset that his little narrative wasn't loved by all. He showed what he's made of with this. I thought it would have been sterner stuff.

he quit blizzard over a year ago. But, he was a crummy artist who moved to writing since people like samwise were better than him even on WC1 and 2. And all of his lore was ripped off from other properties anyway

Sovrath

Xasapis said:

Here's a novel thought. Game professionals need you, the gamer. You don't need them.

Well, you need them if you want games. So yeah, it's a two way street.

laserit

A monetization model tells you exactly what a company thinks about their customers

Respect

There is not much of that left anymore. 

tomahawk1930

"Be excellent to each other."
-Bill and Ted

Played a lot of multiplayer games over the years. Met a ton of cool people. Met a ton of asshats. We start to run into problems when we paint our experiences with others in such large brushstrokes.

Xasapis

Sovrath said:

Xasapis said:

Here's a novel thought. Game professionals need you, the gamer. You don't need them.

Well, you need them if you want games. So yeah, it's a two way street.

Not really. If 50% of the people playing games stop gaming altogether, nothing will happen to them besides stopping one very enjoyable hobby. For game professionals however, that amount of customers lost translates to a massive amount of revenue lost.

The percentage I used is extreme, but there are plenty of cases where games lost their entire player base, leading to studios shutting down.

Generally speaking, there is a fine line between passion and obsession. Ideally you want people to be passionate about your project. Too many however are feeding the obsession or facilitate the obsessive behaviors and then wonder where the toxicity came from.

Viper482

On one hand I think Metzen has some good points....on the other.....the freaking writers of these events are complicit in the fact they KNEW this would cause a huge community reaction. They also fed little bits of the story at a time on purpose so you WOULD jump to conclusions or at least speculate what was going on. Anyone who did not see this would divide the community is an idiot and shouldn't be writing for them....of course they knew! And the fact people have become emotionally invested in the lore should be celebrated. The reactions were not nerd toxicity, they were emotional reactions which most of the time are irrational regardless of the circumstances.

Saying that....I think a lot of Horde players are misguided in that they have been led on to believe the Horde were boy scouts all this time....I mean you have a race of freaking zombies on your side, come on.

#morallygraymyass

Aeander

Xasapis said:

Sovrath said:

Xasapis said:

Here's a novel thought. Game professionals need you, the gamer. You don't need them.

Well, you need them if you want games. So yeah, it's a two way street.

Not really. If 50% of the people playing games stop gaming altogether, nothing will happen to them besides stopping one very enjoyable hobby. For game professionals however, that amount of customers lost translates to a massive amount of revenue lost.

The percentage I used is extreme, but there are plenty of cases where games lost their entire player base, leading to studios shutting down.

Generally speaking, there is a fine line between passion and obsession. Ideally you want people to be passionate about your project. Too many however are feeding the obsession or facilitate the obsessive behaviors and then wonder where the toxicity came from.

One doesn't even have to go as far as stopping gaming. To make a statement, one only needs to shift to a competitor.

Mad at Bungie for the customer contempt they've repeatedly shown with Destiny 2? Go to Warframe as many have. Hell, many have given the Division a second look precisely because it has substantially improved while Destiny continues to take steps backwards.

Disappointed with the terrible launch and lack of long term support for Diablo 3? Well, such disappointment is at least partially responsible for the overwhelming success of Path of Exile.

We're currently seeing a massive increase in the popularity of JRPGs and traditional RPGs because several major western publishers are failing to meet the needs of singleplayer gamers.

The list goes on. If anything, leaving disrespectful or lackluster developers to support quality ones speaks louder than quitting the hobby outright. 

Tintagil

Interesting interview and I think it’s worth listening to the whole thing. There is some good stuff that ties it together at the end. Personally, I appreciate Metzen’s authenticity. He had some pretty basic, yet important things to say. For instance:

“Gosh, would I want people to talk this way about me. Probably not.”

“Stop, take a breath and remember these are human beings on the other side of the expression.”

“Remember empathy…we are all in it together”

So, be patient, be mindful, and treat people the way you want to be treated (i.e., the Golden Rule). Solid advice, and something we all should keep in mind when interacting with each other.

MadFrenchie

Viper482 said:

On one hand I think Metzen has some good points....on the other.....the freaking writers of these events are complicit in the fact they KNEW this would cause a huge community reaction. They also fed little bits of the story at a time on purpose so you WOULD jump to conclusions or at least speculate what was going on. Anyone who did not see this would divide the community is an idiot and shouldn't be writing for them....of course they knew! And the fact people have become emotionally invested in the lore should be celebrated. The reactions were not nerd toxicity, they were emotional reactions which most of the time are irrational regardless of the circumstances.

Saying that....I think a lot of Horde players are misguided in that they have been led on to believe the Horde were boy scouts all this time....I mean you have a race of freaking zombies on your side, come on.

#morallygraymyass

They made the same mistake Bungie made with Destiny- they left important plot points out of the game completely.

Sylvanas is still evil, no doubt.  She's a warmonger- justifying atrocities now with a "what-if" scenario she herself admits could be generations from now if it even happens at all.  But at least the extremes of her plan aren't outta left-field once you read the additional lore.

JeffSpicoli

Albatroes

Viper482 said:

On one hand I think Metzen has some good points....on the other.....the freaking writers of these events are complicit in the fact they KNEW this would cause a huge community reaction. They also fed little bits of the story at a time on purpose so you WOULD jump to conclusions or at least speculate what was going on. Anyone who did not see this would divide the community is an idiot and shouldn't be writing for them....of course they knew! And the fact people have become emotionally invested in the lore should be celebrated. The reactions were not nerd toxicity, they were emotional reactions which most of the time are irrational regardless of the circumstances.



Saying that....I think a lot of Horde players are misguided in that they have been led on to believe the Horde were boy scouts all this time....I mean you have a race of freaking zombies on your side, come on.



#morallygraymyass

Part of the problem with the writing (to me at least) is that either some of the team dont know what previously happened or they purposely write it in a way so it can sell more (i.e. books w/e). Couple that with the lack of probably 80% of wow's current population not even really aware of what happened in the game probably before SoO. The writers aren't really writing Sylvanas in a way that is ground breaking to her character since she's always wanted to do things like this. The main difference is that she's in a position to do the things she's always wanted. The only thing I'd personally like to delve deeper in on (or maybe someone can save me the time of investigating) is why Lor'themator (sp) is okay with Sylvanas raising the blood elves as undead but no one else is (orcs and their honor so that's obvious). As for Metzen, personally I could careless what he says about the game since he no longer writes for them. Its almost equivalent as if ghostcrawler came out one day saying he made the changes he did to the game just to purposely piss people off. That said, I do see a lot of blizzard CMs thinking this can relay into how they can represent the coming, just like berating someone just because they find running 4 different difficulties of the same content boring.

Aeander

My question is why there was such an outrage now. As in why now? World of Warcraft has been bastardizing the lore of the RTS games for years in order to make anyone and everyone into raid bosses and shift racial allegiances to make the two factions equal. While the result has made sense from a gameplay perspective, the lore of World of Warcraft has long been a joke compared to the lore of its prequels.