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BDO perma bans guild master without giving reason.
Renoaku
Member EpicPosts: 3,157
No not me, but I find it rather interesting that GM's can't simply provide the guy a police case number so he can inquire about it if there were really law enforcement involved, looks like a case of GM's giving him the run-around?
https://www.reddit.com/r/blackdesertonline/comments/9lyd37/permabanned_our_guild_master_without_informing_why/
https://www.reddit.com/r/blackdesertonline/comments/9lyd37/permabanned_our_guild_master_without_informing_why/
Comments
I've got the straight edge.
Guilty as f#$%.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Then again he could've hired a lawyer to find out what kind of options he had and what was happening...
But at the very least he said SOMETHING that he REALLY shouldn't have if they found logs that merited 1) An immediate ban. 2) Informing the authorities about this person.
My SWTOR referral link for those wanting to give the game a try. (Newbies get a welcome package while returning players get a few account upgrades to help with their preferred status.)
https://www.ashesofcreation.com/ref/Callaron/
Could the company not just provide the case number, or information to him, or his lawyers?
I've got the straight edge.
There are a few problems here..
1 Our civilized society says innocent until PROVEN guilty.Not giving a player ANYTHING at all,it not only rude,but assuming guilt with no recourse,a very unprofessional stance by ANY developer.
I am not saying anyone is right or wrong in case of what the claim was but i do know your no better than the other guy if yoru actions are every bit as lame.
Possibilities such as CC fraud towards the owner and used by some hacker.Well obviously not directly his fault it happened,there was no intent to do anything wrong.There is a reason insurance covers fraud and banks will as well as do CC companies,they do not BLAME you or ridicule you or even accuse you or ban you.
I simply used an example as to why,you should treat your customers with respect no matter what happens.You can be upset/angry or whatever but operate like a customer support SHOULD,not like some ban hammer happy whatever.
BTW VERY few people should be allowed to remove a player,not just any and every GM.The owner of the business/president whomever shoudl pick those couple people based on integrity and personality,some people are just not fit to be a good GM but often there because they are a friend or FREE of wage.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
He also very likely knows why and won't be going to court over it.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
lol, yea, totaly for no reason i bet :P
"I'll never grow up, never grow up, never grow up! Not me!"
My Skyrim, Fallout 4, Starbound and WoW + other game mods at MODDB:
https://www.moddb.com/mods/skyrim-anime-overhaul
Brenics ~ Just to point out I do believe Chris Roberts is going down as the man who cheated backers and took down crowdfunding for gaming.
In the US the police do not have to tell you that you are being investigated only when you are charged with a crime and will be prosecuted in court. Everyday people driving cars are "investigated" when license plate readers run their tags and they are never notified that their tag was run. Right now you could call the police and say your neighbor is having a wild drunken party with underage people. The police would come and poke around to see what they can see. If you house is quiet and nothing is going on they do not have to come tell you they "investigated" a claim against you.
Secondly it is not a crime to lie and tell someone that you got a police investigation against them when you have not. Possible lawsuit for defamation if you can prove that lie monetarily harmed you. People lie all the time about calling the police and having their spouses investigated in pending divorce cases to try and unnerve the other spouse.
Third if an investigation is part of an "ongoing" investigation they do not have to tell a lawyer anything about it. They can even...lie....about the investigation happening. Freedom of information Act does not even get you that info in the US till the investigation is closed or no longer being pursed for a "reasonable", an object term for the judge hearing the FOIA case, time. The only caveat to that is that the police can not release that info to use against you in separate legal action without providing that info to the target as part of disclosure.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
But those don't apply to online game accounts, because the consumer doesn't own the account, the publisher does.
So DMKano is basically correct. MMO Publishers have the right to draw your name from a hat and ban you for it.
Not much you can do.
For example take the new game called "Fractured" which was on KickStarter not too long ago they actually had a user agreement up there already however it doesn't contain key things like "Users can't use cheats, hacks, modify the game, or sell for real money.
https://fracturedmmo.com/terms-of-service/
So a user who buys the game and then the agreement is changed, and the agreement a user reads does not say it will change in the future?
Ashes OF Creation, Also ahd the same issue no EULA, I don't remember if Crow Fall did, but I know all games on KickStarter often don't have User Agreements shown before a user backs a product.
Generally a game company won't ban without a really good reason but recently i've seen a few instances of bans without a good reason or evidence provided from different companies, especially ARC Games, and SBI, blaming customers for their own mistakes.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
2) EULAs change all the time....that's why when software of any kind has an update of any kind companies usually make you reagree to the new EULA
3) when you do "purchase" a game you aren't purchasing ownership of intellectual or physical property(game code/servers/rights to distribution) outside of the platform its delivered on(downloader/physical disc) but right to access the companies property. Thus they have a right to evict you from there property if they feel like you aren't acting in good faith and are not required to give you reason nor do they need your consent. Companies provide reasons for bans as a courtesy not because its a contractual obligation.
4) GMs wouldn't have access to any legal information you would have to go through the companies lawyers and as others have posted....if a person isn't charged then information about the investigation doesn't have to be provided.
Small claims is one way if you live in the country where you are taking legal actions, but going against a company in another country costs a lot more money, and given Kakao is in EU it gets very expensive.
If it wasn't expensive I would have taken legal action against the company that frauded me like $180 months ago but the costs were not cost effective for me, or for them to actually do anything due to being across country.
The last I remember hearing about a Lawsuit where a gamer sued some company over a virtual item lost, and I believe they won but it wasn't in U.S.
Just like there are Loot-Box Laws, coming into effect, I strongly believe that there needs to be "Laws" that protect "Digital Content" "Games" or "Accounts" to at least "Refund", or "Restore" an account", if the user did not actually violate any of the agreement. (The extent should be a refund of all funds put into a product.)
For Example, Lets say a user is playing World OF Warcraft, and Blizzard claims the user bought currency for Real Money, the company would have to prove the person paid real money, didn't just receive it in the mail.
Exploting, a user shouldn't ever be able just to be banned, over a game creators mistake, if the user had no idea it was an exploit in the first place, instead should be warned, or users notified aka Never Winter for example where users got banned for some just being part of groups where a person exploited.
Enchanting in games need to provide Warnings, on items that can be lost when enchanting, and micro-transactions need to be properly of how it functions and everything.
I've personally seen some games on the Google Play Store, which fail to properly inform consumers of certain mechanics, are not advertised properly, and Games that I feel wrongfully terminated users accounts, which to me seems like a legal way for game companies to commit fraud against users.
If EA loses its suit against Belgium.....guess whos probably not getting the next fifa game?
2)Blizzard example is a bad example. Blizzard already bans people for accepting large amount of gold from others who bought it....its participating in RMT(which being a middleman or end user is participating) not just the act of buying and selling.
Also these restrictions are in place to help control the laundering of money by criminal/terror elements in real life and changing said policy could have very deadly real world consequences.
if you want a good blizzard example...blizzard also bans people if its anti cheat software detects cheat programs on your computer even if you aren't actively using them on a blizzard product.
3) why not? bugs and exploits can do permanent damage to the companies product? why should they be restricted in "fixing" the damage in the most cost effective least damaging way possible? isn't it easier and less damaging as a whole to ban a few hundred accounts instead of rolling back 10s of thousands of accounts months?
4)why because its annoying? digital items dont have real world value and legislation for something that's annoying in a small subset of games seems excessive. if you start assigning digital items in game real world value you just run into the RMT and laundering issues again.
But they could simply sort the loot-box issue out by putting content in the cash shop like "Black Desert" online does so Real Money you just buy the outfit or skin you want and to be honest I'd rather play League OF Legends, over Smite due to skins that are really good being locked behind loot-box as well.
2.) I've never personally heard of banning legitimate players, but then I haven't played WOW in years so it is possible, but as an example (no company) not even Blizzard IMO should ban someone just because someone sends a person (an investment) without proof that the person bought it with real money.
I've done a little bit of digging on Blizzard, and it appears they have automated software that flags accounts if players get traded a large amount of gold, or mailed without a good reason.
This is also a reason why they introduced WOW token IMO is because illegal 3rd party sellers buy and sell WOW tokens using stolen information then buy gold, thus if a person buys the gold then hands it out to another player the other player could have problems.
. Also I've never heard of accounts being banned by Blizzard for example for using hack programs.
I have 2 Software development programs installed on my system that can be used to hack, or cheat games, Cheat Engine, and a lot of really nasty zip files, I've had some of these going back to when I did play WOW, as well as my Macro tools for mouse and keyboard never got banned from WOW.
3.) Exploits, It depends on the Exploit, for example if a person can sit at their keyboard and hit a certain key combo, and duplicate in-game currency like have 100k and turn it into a million then that should be obvious it's not intended.
However an Exploit where a certain skill, or game-play mechanic causes a boss to stop attacking for example isn't a players fault, and the developers of the game should disable such content until a fix is done, or warn players not to use a specific skill or something.
The problem here is proving a person knows something is an exploit, especially like in NeverWinter when kids under 18 actually play the game.
Also when a company knows about a bug or exploit of something they don't want players using and they fail to address it to the community in a warning first.
Rolling back accounts is pretty easy if the developers coded the game right in the first place and put the right tools there.
Gaming Services, do have "Real World Value", perhaps not so much a claim over the items having a real world value. However lets say a person is playing WOW, or even worse a game with a Cash Shop such as "Black Desert", or Elder Scrolls Online, lets say for the sake of argument a player who is playing ESO threw in $700 Real Dollrs, bought like 5 of the most expensive house, and a lot of Digital Items.
The money goes to the company, and so lets say 3 months later a person gets banned accused of botting, or hacking by a company that just decides to wrongfully terminate a users account without proof, and keep providing Generic Responses to the customer similar to what "Black Desert Online" did recently.
Now that player who did nothing wrong is out $700 Real Life Dollars, of their hard earned money they trusted with the company, the company in question refuses to even let them know what happened, and they lose all their content and there are no laws to protect such cases of false positives.
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To a certain point I agree, having Real World Value on games creates issues however have to look at it from a certain aspect, and with new EULA changes in most games that forbid outside exchanges beyond real money also due to crypto currency.
- Crypto Currency of many types can now be used for money laundering.
- There are certain games you can use to pass secret messages to others that not even the police can find (True Fact) and no one knows where to look no it's not using a mail system or WOW.
- Biggest issue right now with Criminals, is Fraud such as those tech scammers calling people, and Giftcard fraud.
- WOW Token, APEX, GW2 Credits, Warframe, "BDO Gifting" all these can easily be used by 3rd parties to do fraud, which is why you don't buy from 3rd parties and it's easy to track.
- For $2 You can buy credit card numbers nad matching info to go with them online, most retailers usch as walmart check "Digital Giftcard" purchases for valid Real Life information that should be on the card, however some do not, and lets just say either way it's easy to do and these get sold on sites, or apps like Offer-Up, G2A, Ebay, although Ebay has a policy against people selling digital giftcard people still do it.
So whenever you shop anywhere but a legitimate store in Real Life for example you have no idea if your buying something that is stolen, and also if you activate a card you have to check and make sure it's got no magnetic strip or scratched because people can clone and put back on the shelf.
https://www.fastpeoplesearch.com/ i'll give you a hint or something I found, if you search your own street address, or phone number it comes up with lots of information information is everywhere these days.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AK2hB4efNmY
However saying a persons Game Account holds absolutely no Real Life value when banned without a reason being given, or proving wrong doing is where I think something needs to be done legally to prevent this from any company, or in the last give refund back to the player if they did nothing wrong and the company or persons don't want them using the service anymore.
Heres an excerpt from EU BDO for example:
"Game License”means a license allowing the user to access and play the Game under the terms and conditions set forth in the agreement
You can purchase Kakao Cash in the Shop and Pearls in the In-game Shop.
The purchase of Kakao Cash is not a delivery of goods but the provision of digital content licensed by Kakao Games Europe to the User. Subject to the terms of the Agreement, Kakao Games Europe grants the User a non-transferable, non-sublicensable and non-exclusive license for the duration of the Agreement on the Kakao Cash the User purchased to use the Kakao Cash on the User’s Account in the Game to purchase Pearls.
The purchase of Pearls using Kakao Cash is not a delivery of goods but the provision of digital content licensed by Kakao Games Europe to the User. Subject to the terms of the Agreement, Kakao Games Europe grants the User a non-transferable, non-sublicensable and non-exclusive license for the duration of the Agreement on the Pearls the User purchased to use the Pearls on the User’s Account in the Game to purchase Virtual Items.
Once a Pearls package is purchased in the Shop, a Pearls Box is created in the Game for the User’s Account. The User is required to login in the Game, select a character and unwrap the Pearls Box in order to use the Pearls in the In-game Shop.
In the event a Party (the “Defaulting Party”) does not fulfil its obligations set forth in the Agreement, the other Party (the “Notifying Party”) shall notify the Defaulting Party:
- by contacting customer support if Kakao Games Europe is the Defaulting Party, or
- by contacting the User by email or with a notice displayed when the User attempts to connect to his or her Account or to the Game.
The notification shall describe the Defaults resulting from the Defaulting Party.
In the event Kakao Games Europe does not remedy to the attributable Defaults within two (2) month as from the date of receipt of the notice, the User shall be entitled to terminate the Agreement for cause. Only the impossibility for the User to access the Game for the User shall qualify as a Default of Kakao Games Europe justifying the termination of the Agreement by the User.
If the User is the Defaulting Party, Kakao Games Europe shall be entitled to (I) immediately stop providing all Services to the User without prior notice and without any indemnity or liability and (ii) terminate the Agreement for cause. Kakao Games Europe may, at its sole discretion, start providing the Services again to the User if the User remedies to the Defaults.
In the event of termination for cause (“ontbinding”) of the Agreement, no reversal will take place of that which Kakao Games Europe has already delivered and/or performed and User has paid. Where applicable, amounts invoiced by Kakao Games Europe before the termination in connection with that which Kakao Games Europe has already properly performed or delivered in the implementation of the Agreement will continue to be owed with due observance of the provision in the preceding sentence and will become immediately due and payable in full at the time of the termination.