6. Too easy. When you can run a pug through a dungeon for 30 minutes and no one needs to type one word.....
If you're playing with people who know how to play their class, outside of barking a few orders now and again there should be no social chatting going on.
That was my main gripe with EQ. You had to be social as the combat was so insipid you'd be bored rigid otherwise.
Socialising should be done in taverns/cantinas like the real world, not during combat.
You've never watched anime or read comic books, have you? Monologue-ing during a fight is standard fare
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
A, Newsflash. A large chunk of the population are below average socially, morally, and logically (regardless of what your leanings are, you feel this way).
B, I don't know about other folks, but given the current climate in the world and specifically USA ...
A, probably not true at all. Most likely a bell curve where a good amount of people are social and moral to some degree (what slide rule can you really measure this on?). And logically? Probably just a small amount of extremely HIGH IQ people who are so logical that nothing else matters. Otherwise, most people can look at a situation and use some "logical street smarts" to get the lay of the land. Not sure where you pulled this from.
B, Your view of the world and its history must be VERY small if you think the current climate in the world is so significantly different from eras past. Also I seem to remember history having some pretty bleak and horrid times where slavery was ok, War was usually the preferred option and that the rights of the people weren't really much to talk about.
I think we are marginally better now. That's just how the world does it, we make things "marginally better" as we march forward in time.
I think everyone thinks their generation or another generation is destroying society no matter what they do.
Not their generation, but rather the one or two previous generations (parents/grandparents) or the one or two latest generations (kids/grandkids). Never their own generation
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
2. Crafting jack of all trades...no reliance on anyone else because you can do everything yourself.
Don't see this.
So someone can create a jack-of-all trades and spend the time needed to learn the 6 or whatever number of crafts.
Guess what that someone would have done 5 or 10 years ago - or today in e.g. LotR. Clue: if there are 6 professions they create 6 characters ......
It wasn't that easy to become a high level crafter for end game in one trade, let alone all of them. I would throw this in the too easy category as well. Crafting nowadays can be maxed out in hours, in old school MMO's they required as much dedication as getting to max level on your toon. Trades actually mattered then and took effort to max out. Even the most casual player can max out all trades on one account in today's MMOs.
21 years of UO and ill still have not GMed all the crafting , altho i did Gm Tailoring this weekend
THE reason game communities are worse now is anonymity. You are polite and respectful in society because there are consequences. Online there are none.
The more things change the more they stay the same. I remember games having the same problems now as they had back then. Not everyone grouped or took their time playing back then either.
"We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." SR Covey
A, Newsflash. A large chunk of the population are below average socially, morally, and logically (regardless of what your leanings are, you feel this way).
B, I don't know about other folks, but given the current climate in the world and specifically USA ...
A, probably not true at all. Most likely a bell curve where a good amount of people are social and moral to some degree (what slide rule can you really measure this on?). And logically? Probably just a small amount of extremely HIGH IQ people who are so logical that nothing else matters. Otherwise, most people can look at a situation and use some "logical street smarts" to get the lay of the land. Not sure where you pulled this from.
B, Your view of the world and its history must be VERY small if you think the current climate in the world is so significantly different from eras past. Also I seem to remember history having some pretty bleak and horrid times where slavery was ok, War was usually the preferred option and that the rights of the people weren't really much to talk about.
I think we are marginally better now. That's just how the world does it, we make things "marginally better" as we march forward in time.
A. I said a large chunk, and that's all I will say because saying more will take the conversation elsewhere. We can sit here and make pretend that socially, there aren't fringe types that represent a large chunk of humans, and that those humans are divided and both apathetically look at each other as the "problem" to illogical/ideological levels. We can make pretend that those fringes are not in control and the only choice left for folks with common sense is to pick a "lesser of 2 evils" which puts them at odds with others who they more than likely share values with.
B. I don't think my world view is "small" because I can birds-eye-view that socially, humanity is 1000x more connected than we're meant to be and it's having the literal opposite effect that the obtuse folks who created the platforms expected. There's regression happening, clear as day.
Maybe it's all based on point of view but mine isn't closed off, it's quite the opposite because I'm out of my bubble, interact and observe.
Regardless my point is my point which is, the answer to "community" (in MMORPGs) isn't to ram forced interaction into game play mechanics and communication. It should be organic to in-game tasks unless the player(s) desire more. Then they can be provided tools to "make friends".
"As far as the forum code of conduct, I would think it's a bit outdated and in need of a refre *CLOSED*"
True Pvper could care less about civility. I prefer to be despised and hated. My role inside a mmorpg is to PvP. I'm not looking to Pve with my friends. My goal is to make you frustrated and create drama. I want to gank you inside a dungeon and take all your hard earned loot. I want you to rage quit and uninstall the game. I love tears they bring me happiness. My actions make the community stronger. Friendships are formed out of hatred for me. We all have different roles...
Newsflash. A large chunk of the population are below average socially, morally, and logically (regardless of what your leanings are, you feel this way). As social interactivity increases so does the divide. Social interaction wasn't meant to be a buffet. Social interaction is meant to be sought out, found, maintained, and easily closed out.
The overall issue stated above has bled into games. Folks don't have issues PLAYING with other people, it's the unnecessary interaction they wish to avoid. The population in console/PC games are even more skewed into polar opposites. I feel people don't want to be required to "make friends" to relax and play a video game. I think the best thing a game could do is remove all forms of shout chat, focus on accepted/declined area/vicinity interaction and provide players the tools to create their own relationships, and social groups if they desire them. Player grouping should be based on tasks, and challenges in game. Groups should form organically without relying on party systems
*Player A wishes to communicate *Player B accepts "Hey I like how you play, want to work together for a bit?" "Sure"
or
*Player Troll Name wishes to communicate *Player B declines Player B has to take into consideration their behavior and how it affects their ability to communicate with others.
I don't know about other folks, but given the current climate in the world and specifically USA I don't want to care about anybody else beyond the immediate tasks at hand unless I WANT to, not as a requirement. Games should be a place where we all escape the bull$#!% not continue it. THAT's how you make connections and learn about other people outside of your bubble, having a common task/cause without preconceived notions.
I don't want to see racist meme screen names, or offensive guild names. I don't want to hear your opinions, or know about your personal life in discord. I don't want to see your political opinion in your avatar picture. I don't want to have troll wars in general chat/LFG/Trade/Nation/Region as none of those shout style mediums are necessary to kill the f#$%ing dragon, chop down trees, or trade goods. Save that stuff for the outside world as it burns down around us.
TL;DR
Read what the f#$% I wrote. Game developers have to start refactoring player interaction from the ground up.
BTW @Vermillion_Raventhal, I for one appreciate the threads you start here. They usually lead to good, polite discussions about interesting game related subjects.
Not naming any names but there are a couple of other prolific thread starters here who should take a look at your topics and compare them to their own disastrous ones
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
BTW @Vermillion_Raventhal, I for one appreciate the threads you start here. They usually lead to good, polite discussions about interesting game related subjects.
Not naming any names but there are a couple of other prolific thread starters here who should take a look at your topics and compare them to their own disastrous ones
hmm this is somewhat a negative i think, since no matter what you do how people do their things differs to each other
Community was the core of the original MMO. Servers were small towns where you could run into the same people all the time and you needed each other to advance in all way. People tend to be nicer when they others in all things.
My reasons why MMORPG communities suck now
1. Gameplay more solo focused than not.
2. Crafting jack of all trades...no reliance on anyone else because you can do everything yourself.
3. Auction Houses...even if you do have to buy from others there is no personal interaction.
4. Destination rather than journey....every new MMO that comes out the first to max gets there in like 2 days at most. Speaks for itself. When they journey is going to take forever anyway you tend to stop and smell the roses more. This gives community a chance to flourish.
5. Megaservers/phasing.....when you never see the same person twice outside of your guild how on Earth can a sense of community be possible? I used to make friends all the time in early MMORPG's, it was near impossible not to because they were social games above all else.
6. Too easy. When you can run a pug through a dungeon for 30 minutes and no one needs to type one word.....
7. The internet in general is a cesspool in 2018 and it won't get better...ever.
The solo focus is a wrong reason, both UO and AC1 where very solo friendly, yet had great tight knit communities.
I think the solo focused is different than solo friendly. UO for example had solo friendly combat but that was not the sole focus of the game. Most MMO are solo focused in content until end game which most players don't even do.
How exactly do you think people get a few hundred or a few thousand hours in themepark games if it only take a few hours to reach max level.
Never said they did. Just the games are solo focused til end game. Playing a single player story mode online is not the same as being able to win in combat solo.
I think most people do run dungeons, raids, or pvp in those themepark game. What else are you going to do in those themepark game after reaching max level.
I think most people do run dungeons, raids, or pvp in those themepark game. What else are you going to do in those themepark game after reaching max level.
Play other games until the next update? That's what I see a lot of MMO players do.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
BTW @Vermillion_Raventhal, I for one appreciate the threads you start here. They usually lead to good, polite discussions about interesting game related subjects.
Not naming any names but there are a couple of other prolific thread starters here who should take a look at your topics and compare them to their own disastrous ones
Thank you. You guys truly help me see other angles and reasons. I love MMORPG theorycraft and design.
True Pvper could care less about civility. I prefer to be despised and hated. My role inside a mmorpg is to PvP. I'm not looking to Pve with my friends. My goal is to make you frustrated and create drama. I want to gank you inside a dungeon and take all your hard earned loot. I want you to rage quit and uninstall the game. I love tears they bring me happiness. My actions make the community stronger. Friendships are formed out of hatred for me. We all have different roles...
You sound like a child to me. And you've actually been this way for years?
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
True Pvper could care less about civility. I prefer to be despised and hated. My role inside a mmorpg is to PvP. I'm not looking to Pve with my friends. My goal is to make you frustrated and create drama. I want to gank you inside a dungeon and take all your hard earned loot. I want you to rage quit and uninstall the game. I love tears they bring me happiness. My actions make the community stronger. Friendships are formed out of hatred for me. We all have different roles...
You sound like a child to me. And you've actually been this way for years?
They made a TV series about that, Arrested Development.
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
True Pvper could care less about civility. I prefer to be despised and hated. My role inside a mmorpg is to PvP. I'm not looking to Pve with my friends. My goal is to make you frustrated and create drama. I want to gank you inside a dungeon and take all your hard earned loot. I want you to rage quit and uninstall the game. I love tears they bring me happiness. My actions make the community stronger. Friendships are formed out of hatred for me. We all have different roles...
You sound like a child to me. And you've actually been this way for years?
I've seen this exact type of player in Lineage 2. There was a ganker in the Heretics Catacomb on my server who logged in every single day, and camped that dungeon all day. They would PK any player who ever walked in, and had multiple characters on different accounts that they would log into if you somehow killed the main PKer. They capped out the PK number apparently, and just kept going.
They honestly have a little bit of truth in what they say, people would form groups in our clan to go kill the person so our lower levels could go farm there, or protect them while farming.
It's an interesting way to play though IMO. You always see players who want to be friends with everyone, usually PKs or ganks are caused by anger or irritation. If a player wants to cause issues and PK just for fun all the time, that's just a different way of playing I guess.
True Pvper could care less about civility. I prefer to be despised and hated. My role inside a mmorpg is to PvP. I'm not looking to Pve with my friends. My goal is to make you frustrated and create drama. I want to gank you inside a dungeon and take all your hard earned loot. I want you to rage quit and uninstall the game. I love tears they bring me happiness. My actions make the community stronger. Friendships are formed out of hatred for me. We all have different roles...
True Pvper could care less about civility. I prefer to be despised and hated. My role inside a mmorpg is to PvP. I'm not looking to Pve with my friends. My goal is to make you frustrated and create drama. I want to gank you inside a dungeon and take all your hard earned loot. I want you to rage quit and uninstall the game. I love tears they bring me happiness. My actions make the community stronger. Friendships are formed out of hatred for me. We all have different roles...
You sound like a child to me. And you've actually been this way for years?
I've seen this exact type of player in Lineage 2. There was a ganker in the Heretics Catacomb on my server who logged in every single day, and camped that dungeon all day. They would PK any player who ever walked in, and had multiple characters on different accounts that they would log into if you somehow killed the main PKer. They capped out the PK number apparently, and just kept going.
They honestly have a little bit of truth in what they say, people would form groups in our clan to go kill the person so our lower levels could go farm there, or protect them while farming.
It's an interesting way to play though IMO. You always see players who want to be friends with everyone, usually PKs or ganks are caused by anger or irritation. If a player wants to cause issues and PK just for fun all the time, that's just a different way of playing I guess.
i remember a great experience i had in vanilla wow questing in Duskwood cemetery and this prick undead rogue was just relentlessly ganking, dead gnomes everywhere , it was a real blood bath . I don't remember what level he was but i do remember one brave soul spamming chat to start a party to take him down. When we eventually found and killed him it was more satisfying then any boss i had taken down thereafter. I also ended up getting a guild invite that day from the guy who formed the group which i stayed with for quite some time all the way through Wrath.
7. The internet in general is a cesspool in 2018 and it won't get better...ever.
It's not so grim.... humans wont last forever. Time destroys all.
It will get better, we just won't the around to see it
One can find peace in knowing that humanity's stain will be erased eventually
I always laugh at the "We're destroying the earth!" doom & gloomers. We couldn't destroy it if we launched all our nukes at once. The Earth has survived a hell of a lot more than we piddly humans can dish out (Mountains being born and dieing, magma flowing freely, ice ages and scorching heat that rendered the surface unlivable, volcanoes galore). What those doom & gloomers are really worried about is their own precious skins
You didn't read what the philosopher @DMKano said did you?
True Pvper could care less about civility. I prefer to be despised and hated. My role inside a mmorpg is to PvP. I'm not looking to Pve with my friends. My goal is to make you frustrated and create drama. I want to gank you inside a dungeon and take all your hard earned loot. I want you to rage quit and uninstall the game. I love tears they bring me happiness. My actions make the community stronger. Friendships are formed out of hatred for me. We all have different roles...
You sound like a child to me. And you've actually been this way for years?
I've seen this exact type of player in Lineage 2. There was a ganker in the Heretics Catacomb on my server who logged in every single day, and camped that dungeon all day. They would PK any player who ever walked in, and had multiple characters on different accounts that they would log into if you somehow killed the main PKer. They capped out the PK number apparently, and just kept going.
They honestly have a little bit of truth in what they say, people would form groups in our clan to go kill the person so our lower levels could go farm there, or protect them while farming.
It's an interesting way to play though IMO. You always see players who want to be friends with everyone, usually PKs or ganks are caused by anger or irritation. If a player wants to cause issues and PK just for fun all the time, that's just a different way of playing I guess.
I have no problem with someone who wants to play this way. I think it's perfectly viable.
In Lineage 2, EvilSeed was a really nice guy but that's what he liked to do.
I question the motivation. EvilSeed was always civil. He just pk'ed people.
This whole "care less about civility, prefer to be despised, creating drama, etc." It's just so teenage dork edgy.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
No time outs, no necessary grouping. MMORPG's survived the Me generation of Locust/solo only players but the Snowflake/Butterflies generation are as inconstant as their name implies. Difficult to maintain a community with so many here today gone tomorrow types.
2. Crafting jack of all trades...no reliance on anyone else because you can do everything yourself.
Don't see this.
So someone can create a jack-of-all trades and spend the time needed to learn the 6 or whatever number of crafts.
Guess what that someone would have done 5 or 10 years ago - or today in e.g. LotR. Clue: if there are 6 professions they create 6 characters ......
It wasn't that easy to become a high level crafter for end game in one trade, let alone all of them. I would throw this in the too easy category as well. Crafting nowadays can be maxed out in hours, in old school MMO's they required as much dedication as getting to max level on your toon. Trades actually mattered then and took effort to max out. Even the most casual player can max out all trades on one account in today's MMOs.
It was harder in games pre-WoW I agree - so not a long list of games. It was also boring as hell. Or maybe I should say pre-DAoC since crafting in DAoC wasn't hard it was just annoying as a result of the rng. So really in was just the originals and came down to grind and time which - in my experience - some people would do. And ESO I suppose these days but that is a forced delay thing.
What this comes down to is that crafting has encouraged solo play. Yes you might get a small group of crafters in the same place, grinding away but typically its anti-group.
The "ideal goal", imo, is for devs to encourage "group" (guild) crafting. Done even half well though "collaborative crafting" would upset the solo crafters no end .... so not likely to happen.
True Pvper could care less about civility. I prefer to be despised and hated. My role inside a mmorpg is to PvP. I'm not looking to Pve with my friends. My goal is to make you frustrated and create drama. I want to gank you inside a dungeon and take all your hard earned loot. I want you to rage quit and uninstall the game. I love tears they bring me happiness. My actions make the community stronger. Friendships are formed out of hatred for me. We all have different roles...
You sound like a child to me. And you've actually been this way for years?
I've seen this exact type of player in Lineage 2. There was a ganker in the Heretics Catacomb on my server who logged in every single day, and camped that dungeon all day. They would PK any player who ever walked in, and had multiple characters on different accounts that they would log into if you somehow killed the main PKer. They capped out the PK number apparently, and just kept going.
They honestly have a little bit of truth in what they say, people would form groups in our clan to go kill the person so our lower levels could go farm there, or protect them while farming.
It's an interesting way to play though IMO. You always see players who want to be friends with everyone, usually PKs or ganks are caused by anger or irritation. If a player wants to cause issues and PK just for fun all the time, that's just a different way of playing I guess.
i remember a great experience i had in vanilla wow questing in Duskwood cemetery and this prick undead rogue was just relentlessly ganking, dead gnomes everywhere , it was a real blood bath . I don't remember what level he was but i do remember one brave soul spamming chat to start a party to take him down. When we eventually found and killed him it was more satisfying then any boss i had taken down thereafter. I also ended up getting a guild invite that day from the guy who formed the group which i stayed with for quite some time all the way through Wrath.
I can name a handful of players like this in the MMORPG I play, and... it is interesting. Although I dislike getting killed, especially if I'm on an important mission, I can honestly say they add to the experience? There are only some places where this type of play is commonly feasible, and it's clearly indicated by the game (you can technically be killed anywhere, but defenses get orders of magnitude stronger the closer you get to the capitol and training sector).
Flying through unguarded, unmonitored space and wondering 'will I run into <X> or <Y>' adds an element of uncertainty and danger; this in turn increases the payoff after a successful run: risk vs. reward. On the opposite extreme we could be holding hands and singing kumbaya all the time but that would be dull. It's more compelling with a tapestry of different interactions always occurring.
"The simple is the seal of the true and beauty is the splendor of truth" -Subrahmanyan Chandrasekhar Authored 139 missions in VendettaOnline and 6 tracks in Distance
Comments
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
"We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." SR Covey
B. I don't think my world view is "small" because I can birds-eye-view that socially, humanity is 1000x more connected than we're meant to be and it's having the literal opposite effect that the obtuse folks who created the platforms expected. There's regression happening, clear as day.
Maybe it's all based on point of view but mine isn't closed off, it's quite the opposite because I'm out of my bubble, interact and observe.
Regardless my point is my point which is, the answer to "community" (in MMORPGs) isn't to ram forced interaction into game play mechanics and communication. It should be organic to in-game tasks unless the player(s) desire more. Then they can be provided tools to "make friends".
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Not naming any names but there are a couple of other prolific thread starters here who should take a look at your topics and compare them to their own disastrous ones
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
hmm this is somewhat a negative i think, since no matter what you do how people do their things differs to each other
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
They honestly have a little bit of truth in what they say, people would form groups in our clan to go kill the person so our lower levels could go farm there, or protect them while farming.
It's an interesting way to play though IMO. You always see players who want to be friends with everyone, usually PKs or ganks are caused by anger or irritation. If a player wants to cause issues and PK just for fun all the time, that's just a different way of playing I guess.
Aloha Mr Hand !
Aloha Mr Hand !
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
What this comes down to is that crafting has encouraged solo play. Yes you might get a small group of crafters in the same place, grinding away but typically its anti-group.
The "ideal goal", imo, is for devs to encourage "group" (guild) crafting. Done even half well though "collaborative crafting" would upset the solo crafters no end .... so not likely to happen.
Flying through unguarded, unmonitored space and wondering 'will I run into <X> or <Y>' adds an element of uncertainty and danger; this in turn increases the payoff after a successful run: risk vs. reward. On the opposite extreme we could be holding hands and singing kumbaya all the time but that would be dull. It's more compelling with a tapestry of different interactions always occurring.
"The simple is the seal of the true and beauty is the splendor of truth" -Subrahmanyan Chandrasekhar
Authored 139 missions in Vendetta Online and 6 tracks in Distance