The Virtual World mmorpg

kjempff

I would like to throw in an opener for a discussion of what Virtual World mmorpg means, and how we can reference this to Pantheon. In this I will be trying to describe the feeling you(I) get when playing, which can be subjective but also hopefully find some common ground, at least for some parts.

Since this can sidetrack easy, lets try to stay on the topic of what makes you feel like you are in a Virtual World, and what Pantheon might be doing to make you achieve that. If you don't care about being immersed in a mmorpg that is a perfectly valid approach, but you don't have join in just to state that.

Please quote specific parts instead of the entire wall of text, correct me, call me a weirdo, and add your ideas to what makes you feel like being in a Virtual World.

So what is this feeling of being in a virtual world ?

It is about being immersed, which means that you to some degree forget that you are just playing a game. Some can easily get into this state of mind, some dive deep and loose themselves completely while others keep a controlled distance. Another game word "Flow" also describes this state of mind that gamers get into, which helps being immersed.

Some games are able to get me into this state while others remain in my consciousness as "just a game". Everquest was a mmorpg that could get me immersed (and I am sure other oldschool mmorpgs are just as good at that), while all modern mmorpgs constantly break my suspension of disbelief, meaning they constantly remind me that I am just playing a game and as such makes it hard to find moments of immersion.

For me, this suspension of disbelief is what a Virtual world mmorpg is all about, and it is what defines the oldschool mmorpg spirit. All other specifics are essentially unimportant details, and yet not completely but neither define the oldschool spirit and virtual world and can in principle be replaced, as long as the replacement doesn't introduce immersion breaking.

Therefore, to create a Virtual World mmorpg able to immerse me (players), it needs to minimize the things that brings me out of the flow, out of this suspension of disbelief. This is where it gets subjective, and each person has their own limit and ability to get into the immersed state of mind, but still in the grand view of things a thousand little details will find some common ground and therefore work as a whole - Because immersion is never a total state of escapism but any degree and has highs and lows through your session.

Virtual World and Immersion goes hand in hand.

Story driven.

The major reason modern mmorpgs can not keep me immersed and provide a Virtual World experience is because they are story driven. This means the feeling while playing is that I am being herded by the game through story content and experiences. In a game like Eq the initiative was in the hand of the player, and while the game was full of stories the gameplay was not driven by stories, and that is what litteraly makes it the opposite - It is a hard concept to grasp if you have only played story driven mmorpgs. 

I may have become particularly sensitive to the feeling of being herded in story driven mmorpgs because of so much time in WoW/Eq2 and later mmorpgs have burned me out on that concept. Story driven was refreshing in "vanilla" of WoW/Eq2 and also not very dominant in those early versions, and coming from Everquest the less complicated game style was what I needed at the time, it is just that since then story driven has taken over completely and I just can't enjoy it anymore - Every time these mmorpgs tell me to do stuff instead of giving me the option to seek out adventures myself, it breaks my immersion; and we all know this is 95% of what you do in these mmorpgs.

It is my big hope that Pantheon will return my freedom of choice and let me (my character) hold the initiative.

Pantheons perception system might be doing exactly that, though I am not convinced till I see it (feel it) in action. If the game is still story driven underneath, the perception system will just be a mask (kind of like GW2 events is really just a mask for the standard !? quest system). I am fairly optimistic as Brad was behind much of this open-ended quest philosophy of Everquest, but he is still just one person in a team, and I would not say Vanguard was particularly open-ended in its questing.

If we take Everquest as an example of an open-ended quest (story): The player finds a torn scroll with only some letters readable "return to rightful owner" and "Captain Yadda Yadda"; now the player can choose to ignore the scroll or take initiative to find out what this is all about.. maybe it doesn't make sense at that moment, but then you overhear someone in the tavern talk about Captain Yadda Yadda being corrupt and involved with [whatever] you might seek him out or other information; and on doing that you notice a trapdoor to the sewers for another quest or later exploration, and all this is part of a huge web of stories, some just lore and others again a part of epic quests.

The whole point here is that it is you who take the initiative to the adventure (story) and the game is only providing you open-ended pieces to follow up on it. This means that you were in control and you actively solved the quest, and this makes you care and be involved, and also gives a feeling of accomplishment, and just as important it makes you feel you are in a Virtual World, not in a game.

Themepark and tiered game.

Nothing to spell themepark like tiers and quest hubs, and those things are a perfect way to ruin immersion. No believable world is a themepark, it is just not logic that a living breathing world should happen to be split up in bite sized chunks of equal (power)level enemies and follow a certain theme setting (hence the term themepark). It may seem like details to some, but if the entire game world is build as a themepark is a constant reminder that this is just a game.

Will Pantheon be a themepark or a Virtual World ? I have followed Pantheon for a long time, and this question is still kinda open until we see some more.

Longevity.

To deliver a Virtual World a mmorpg need to focus on reusable game systems rather than one time consumed content (which is the bane of story driven mmorpgs because players gobble it up faster than you can make it).

Pantheon has a high focus on tactical group combat, and if that works and is fun it can provide a lot of longevity.
Of course the world has to be a good size with loads of content, possible events and evolving story to keep interest up; too small and it fast become a Themepark instead of a Virtual World. 

Randomized spawn and drops adds to longevity (and feeling of being in a Virtual World), and here Pantheon is very much on top of it; also as I understand it, the disposition system is also randomized so every fight is different.

kjempff

(continued)

Faction and Lore.

An important part of a Virtual World is of course lore and conflict.

I don't have much to add here, except that it is important to have extensive faction systems with great freedom for players to work towards befriending faction groups as well as consequences for your actions, with included rewards, special quests, items, crafting, access to areas and whatever makes sense. I am sure Pantheon will have plenty of this .. right ?

Information and Community.

I might be strange in this regard but I like to seek information in-game, by chatting with other players. This is everything from combat tactics and tricks, and where is Captain Yadda or how do I get the Sword of Tru(no don't go there). In Everquest it was a great passtime during combat sessions to chitterchatter about everything and nothing and it was a great source of knowledge about the game for those who cared seek it.

I don't like asking for help, so in that regard the heavy group focus in Pantheon is not my favorite part, but I do like grouping because it is usually a case of everyone gets something out of it.

For Pantheon, lack of in-game maps is on one hand a way of keeping information in-game, but I am almost certain it will have the opposite effect because players will just tab out or work around it with overlays - I would have preferred a cartography system where you buy/craft/draw maps, but you can't have it all i guess.

Another way to avoid the wiki problem where players just look up everything instead of finding answers in game, could be to randomize quests/events/perception triggers; this is not in scope for Pantheon afaik ? but it would have been awesome for the feeling of Virtual World.

delete5230

No videos !!! 
Other than start screen absolutely NO VIDEOS !! 
-This takes you from your story to someone else's. 
-A group doesn't need to watch a movie together, their on their own mission. 

Realms !!! 
Everyone should be in dedicated realms. 
-I understand it's smart to have shards and replicas
-I understand population control, maintenance up keep, family and friends However it kills immersion none the less  

Monster/mob population !!! 
Developers need to relax on this, modern games have monster/mobs every two feet.... In other words too crowded. 
-Players should be able to feel comfortable and choose their battles 
-Players should be able to move comfortably instead of being annoyed by trash 
-A solo player should be able to move across the area but using caution 
-Using smart design, solo players should not be able to enter prize content (blocked by strong guards/monsters).

Trash difficulty !!!
I've never given this a thought until watching early Pantheon videos 
-Groups fighting one trash bad guy for 5 minuets, really ? 
-Groups should be able to cover more content in say one hour.
-Should be difficult, but not lengthy...Balance the boring. 

Smart AI intelligence !!! 
-Each type of monster/mob has it's own personality 
-Dating back to early days this was true, BUT DEEPER THAN EVER. 

Non published secrets, tricks, abilities !! 
-Make the people work for knowledge. 
-Sure internet, word of mouth...So what, make people talk and study. 
-Inject mystery.  I know something you don't causes communication. 
-Creates fan sites, web pages, YouTubes...Free advertisement !

delete5230

In a game without quest, artificial intelligence can be EVERYTHING.  

Example: 
Your in a cave watching and timing a patrol and it's movements.  You know if you activate it your group will die.  It takes 5 minuets to understand it moves in a circle stops then moves forward then stops again.  Indicators tell the player it is looking stronger and its aggro radius has increased when stopped. 

Group works smarter than harder, more than ever before ! 

Who needs quest if the environment itself is THE QUEST  

Reference:  DarkFall Unholy Wars... They nailed AI intellagance !! 

kjempff

delete5230 said:

No videos

I assume you mean cutscenes. Yes, cutscenes are for story driven games, that really want to push their narrative onto the player instead of letting the players "make up their own stories" by being part of the world. 

How about something like voice acting ? That is not really pushing a narrative, but then again is it worth the development cost ? I mean I kinda like npc with some voice personality, but you can't really go halfway with voice acting, if one npc has it then everyone should. Opinions ?

delete5230 said:

Monster/mob population !!! 
Developers need to relax on this, modern games have monster/mobs every two feet.... In other words too crowded. 

Yeah this is also a typical problem with themepark that the developer feel they need to baby entertain their players (keep dangling that rattle in front of babys face so they don't start crying again). It is the fear of loosing players if they experience any moments of reflection, which in this case could be not being entertained in a continuous stream of action. But also in the same category of player reflection, could be caused by grind, rng luck, moments of despair or fear of loosing, realization of being underpowered or needing to improve their player skill, and more - Keep dangling that rattle and overdesign for win condition. 
I am not saying players who love story driven themepark are babies, it is great just to kick back and switch the brain off with some light entertainment, but players play for different reasons and in a Virtual World mmorpg the entertainment is there but the player need to reach out and pick it.

Anyway, back to crowded world. It is probably also a real estate price issue, because empty space cost machine resources and has no direct value, except that it makes the world feel "real" (logic).

delete5230 said:

-Inject mystery

Mystery, yes something of a lost art in modern mmorpgs. I believe this is very much tied to them being story driven and content-cramped themeparks, and a highly effective development process where nothing slip through that doesn't have a direct function.
Again the open-ended questing is great for adding mystery, because even if the player is not active on a quest they will still see, hear, read, etc, the signs and hints, and because the player hasn't yet put the pieces together this will appear as mysterious and hopefully also trigger their curiosity.
Also just things that never get explained are great for a Virtual World because that triggers the players imagination and therefore create their own stories - Creating your own story is not only about stories and open-ended quests and the other concrete stuff the game provides, but also what your mind makes up to explain the world you are in.

kjempff

parrotpholk said:

I will play Pantheon and enjoy what it represents but I think people would be best served tempering expectations as to what this team can achieve.  When we start having conversations such as this then it leads me to think peoples expectations are set a bit to high.

A themepark it will not be in my opinion but I cant imagine this being as grand a scale as people are talking about.  I like Brad and his "visions" but also know it takes grand money to pull off grand ideas.

I guess some of it is a bit over the top, especially the part about world size and amount of content in regards to Pantheons scope at this time

But most is just a matter of design principles, and (in my uninformed opinion) does not necessarily cost more money than creating the content for a story driven mmorpg.
If you create effective systems and work procedures for adding open-ended content, then content creation should not be more costly to make than story driven content ? also in light of not having to micro manage player experience so much, not having to produce cutscenes, and that non story driven content last longer and is not "one-time consume", hmm what other cost effective things are there.. opinions?

I am aware that if they already are making a story driven mmorpg then it will not change direction an all of this is just dreams for another game, but on the other hand the project is not so far that the players know what it will be at this time.. because these things are not revealed by gameplay footage or statement of intents, but at a later more completed state of the game.

Neanderthal

Yeah, I think some people who imagine that Pantheon will make them feel like they did back in the early days of EQ are going to be disappointed.  None of them are MMORPG virgins anymore and you can't have two first times.

As for Everquest, I got immersed in EQ in a major way back then myself but it was a themepark game despite what anyone says.  It was not a "on-rails" themepark but it definately wasn't a sandbox.

Look, when I was new to EQ and it was my first MMO a lot of that feeling I got was generated by my own imagination.  Here I was in this fantasy world and it seemed like anything was possible.  Well, it seemed like anything was possible only because I was ignorant of the limitations of the game in those early days.  Ok, I'm not that naive anymore and I'm sure none of the other people who played back then are either.

This doesn't mean nobody could enjoy Pantheon but as I said, anyone who thinks it's going to make them feel like they did in 1999 is almost certainly going to be let down.  I know I'll never feel that way again.  

Even so, I have wished for years for a game that would take the best part of EQ and build a new game around that.  But I guess that's never going to happen.  I know Pantheon isn't doing that.

kjempff

Neanderthal said:

Even so, I have wished for years for a game that would take the best part of EQ and build a new game around that.  But I guess that's never going to happen.  I know Pantheon isn't doing that.

Well, what I am describing is my idea of what the best parts of Everquest were. I do not think that which I am describing is nostalgia, but very much possible to repeat as a design philosophy today. It is not some lofty ideas of the perfect mmo that magically will solve everything, but a few pretty concrete ideas:
Open-ended questing instead of story driven, not a themepark world but a living breathing Virtual World (not to be confused with sandbox) are really the basics of it all. I am not projecting next gen ideas like EqNext onto the project, I know that is not happening. Also I do not have the illusion that you can re-live an experience, but I do believe that you can design over the same principles without that meaning being stuck in the past.

I would not be posting in the Pantheon forums if I didn't think this could be what Pantheon are doing, it is just that we simply do not know. There are indications that it could be (perception system for example) and also indications in the other direction (main story quest). Maybe it will be a middle ground like Vanguard, certainly a lot of concepts are taken from Vanguard but that is more details and not the basic philosophy... Everquest oldschool (open-ended & Virtual World) vs WoW/Eq2/etc (story driven & themepark world) ?

Neanderthal

I agree with you on the open ended questing and not wanting a story driven game.  But just out of curiosity, what exactly do you mean when you say "a living breathing Virtual World" ?  That's pretty vague.  It sounds great but what exactly does it mean?

delete5230

One of many definitions for me with A "living breathing world" is this: 

Developers design a world with many things I can do, they give me this world and say here do anything you want.. Will give you a lake over here full of alligators or a crafting bench over their, a Forest up and around that hill if you dare to go.  Chat and make friends and get more creative with other people if you would like.  Log in and really pretend that your a Wood Elf if that's your thing.  Take a load off and escape reality for a few hours if you had a bad day, immerse yourself.  Hay that's new, those players over their have musical instruments and playing a song !! 

I'm not describing a survival sandbox here, where you find a stick, use it to dig out a rock, attach the rock to the stick and cut down a tree, use the trees to build a house and put a door on it to protect it from other players..... That's just crap to me. 

I want a partially built world where you don't start from absolute scrap.  I want to feel like I was floating on the ocean for a few weeks and happened on a new country that I know nothing about and I have to make something of my self. 

A strange new world

Wizardry

I know often i say too much but game design is not something you can toss out opinions in a couple sentences,it just isn't.
However on this topic it is VERY simple,i expect the world to look exactly like a real world we live in right now.

That means no markers floating in the air over npc heads or sparklies in the air hand holding you to a target etc etc.I expect a NPC to move,even if only a bit or once in awhile,at least move like you are really alive.I expect the world to operate like a real world,stores operate like a store,supply and demand prices fluctuate.

I expect mobs to be plausibly real,meaning they all have different sight ranges,hearing ranges,maybe some can't hear but see really well.They all have various resistances,maybe resistance to tiny pointy objects or resistant to water or fire etc etc.

Buildings should have doors unless it is a hut then perhaps a flap but show some effort.perhaps it is older days,no electricity fine,then players need to light some candles or torches in their homes or buildings.

Weather and i want to notice the difference,Fire spells should not work well in water/rain,light spells not good at night and vice versa.

Ok i think i said enough,keep it plausibly real.

Mendel

How about this for simple:  A virtual world gives me a reason to stay inside when it's raining, both IRL and in-game.

kjempff

If I had to make it short and simple I would say "living breathing" would be that the entities in the world have their own business independently of you the player. The entities do not only exist to serve the (out of character) player, and entities that has no direct purpose (quest, merchant etc) also exist and do their thing all in order to make the world "live". A few examples could be that the guard take a dinner break, the merchant does a daily trip to another town to restock, a faction that send out an expedition to do something, an orc uprising against a village, etc.

Virtual World is the feeling of being part a world while you play, instead of being conscious of being an operator of a game. It has a lot to do with how the game systems work and whether they feel natural to the setting. Like rewards coming out of nowhere and getting quests without talking to someone, would be an example of how not to be a Virtual World.
To be short I would say something like Things that bypass your character and the world and interact directly with you the operator, should be avoid in a Virtual World.
I would not go as far as @Wizardry but I get the fundamental, to me it just have to make sense within the game setup/logic, and again it is subjective because it is up to everyone level of acceptance of "unnatural" things.

delete5230

kjempff said:

If I had to make it short and simple I would say "living breathing" would be that the entities in the world have their own business independently of you the player. A few examples could be that the guard take a dinner break, the merchant does a daily trip to another town to restock, a faction that send out an expedition to do something, an orc uprising against a village, etc.

Virtual World is the feeling of being part a world while you play. It has a lot to do with how the game systems work and whether they feel natural to the setting. Like rewards coming out of nowhere and getting quests without talking to someone would be an example of how not to be a Virtual World. I would not go as far as @Wizardry , it just have to make sense within the game setting, and again it is subjective because it is up to everyone level of acceptance of "unnatural" things.

Not really my definition but its all subjective. 

What your talking about are dynamic events, this happens in a lot of mmo's anymore. However this helps too along with an nice sunset, or wild rivers stuff like that.

I view it as the people are running the show using freedom as their motivation. 

kjempff

delete5230 said:

kjempff said:

If I had to make it short and simple I would say "living breathing" would be that the entities in the world have their own business independently of you the player. A few examples could be that the guard take a dinner break, the merchant does a daily trip to another town to restock, a faction that send out an expedition to do something, an orc uprising against a village, etc.

Virtual World is the feeling of being part a world while you play. It has a lot to do with how the game systems work and whether they feel natural to the setting. Like rewards coming out of nowhere and getting quests without talking to someone would be an example of how not to be a Virtual World. I would not go as far as @Wizardry , it just have to make sense within the game setting, and again it is subjective because it is up to everyone level of acceptance of "unnatural" things.

Not really my definition but its all subjective. 

What your talking about are dynamic events, this happens in a lot of mmo's anymore. However this helps too along with an nice sunset, or wild rivers stuff like that.

I view it as the people are running the show using freedom as their motivation. 

No I am not talking about dynamic events in any way whatsoever !

I can try to be even more clear: A story driven (themepark) evolves around providing experiences to you personally, and the world and its content is build with that purpose. Your story is already written.

A Virtual World is build to provide characters a place to exist, and what you choose to do with that character makes your story.
The world revolve around the sun, not around the player. You are not the hero destined to save the land, you are one character among other characters and entities to inhabit the world.

delete5230

kjempff said:

delete5230 said:

kjempff said:

If I had to make it short and simple I would say "living breathing" would be that the entities in the world have their own business independently of you the player. A few examples could be that the guard take a dinner break, the merchant does a daily trip to another town to restock, a faction that send out an expedition to do something, an orc uprising against a village, etc.

Virtual World is the feeling of being part a world while you play. It has a lot to do with how the game systems work and whether they feel natural to the setting. Like rewards coming out of nowhere and getting quests without talking to someone would be an example of how not to be a Virtual World. I would not go as far as @Wizardry , it just have to make sense within the game setting, and again it is subjective because it is up to everyone level of acceptance of "unnatural" things.

Not really my definition but its all subjective. 

What your talking about are dynamic events, this happens in a lot of mmo's anymore. However this helps too along with an nice sunset, or wild rivers stuff like that.

I view it as the people are running the show using freedom as their motivation. 

No I am not talking about dynamic events in any way whatsoever !

I can try to be even more clear: A story driven (themepark) evolves around providing experiences to you personally, and the world and its content is build with that purpose. Your story is already written.

A Virtual World is build to provide characters a place to exist, and what you choose to do with that character makes your story.
The world revolve around the sun, not around the player. You are not the hero destined to save the land, you are one character among other characters and entities to inhabit the world.

Sorry, I didn't mean to use the phrase dynamic event but instead the world moves dynamic.  You were clear enough.... This is what I believe we have enough of in other games-on-line.  This method usually doesn't last that long, people get too used to it and its just "another thing no one pays attention too". 

A virtual world or Living breathing to me at least, Is hard to explain or put words to action thing created by developers.  Much like an artist, only he can give the amazing effect.  



First and second generation mmorpgs had the "artist"... Because they were artist they made a game.  Now it's companies instead and they hire skilled programing... See the difference ? 

To add insult to injury, the skilled programmer is told what to do and hurry up !!!  
So this is how crap was born, Big Business. 


Please don't take this is arguing. I agree with both views. 

Amathe

Very nice post OP.  

Kyleran

Amathe said:

Very nice post OP.  

Yet, like me, you have no real comment on it. (A rare thing for both of us) 

I think it stunned me into submission. 

kjempff

Kyleran said:

Amathe said:

Very nice post OP.  

Yet, like me, you have no real comment on it. (A rare thing for both of us) 

I think it stunned me into submission. 

Well thank you, I did try a bit harder to make more sense than I sometimes do