How do we define "toxic" in a pvp game?

d_20

I've been following the discussion about the Dark Zone in The Division 2 and some commentators seem to relish the idea of having a very "toxic" environment there. I've been trying to think about what the attraction of that might be and how we define that term in a pvp environment. 

Definitely, I can see how if I was 12 to 21 or so I could get up to some "toxic" behavior with my friends in an open world pvp-type of experience. I don't think any of us in that age (talking about me and my friends) would have thought twice about killing another player or "griefing" just for the laughs. I don't think the concept of "toxic" would have entered our minds, honestly. I wish be had games like The Division back in the 80s.

So how do you develop a pvp game for a diverse community of gamers in 2019 that includes ages from 12 to 70? How can you even define "toxic"? 

For example, in this Division 2 Dark Zone discussion, the presenter seems to think the more "toxic" the enviroment, the better it will be. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y93V5R30Gfc (around 5:40)

What is "toxic" if it is permitted by gameplay and the ToS?

Lokero

In my experience, "toxic" is those people who are making personal insults and throwing rage fits in chat, in most games.  Those types who kick you from a party because you aren't using the flavor of the month cookie-cutter build are another good example.

I don't think of it being related to gameplay, really.  It's a socializing issue.

Octagon7711

I have no problem with a hardcore dark zone.  Have fun and enjoy yourself.  I'm sure the GMs will enforce the TOS as they see fit.

kitarad

For me 'toxic' in relation to a game seems to be related to behaviour that ultimately destroys the game you're playing. Some activity in small doses can encourage the growth of a game but when taken to excessive levels can kill it instead. 

NorseGod

The definition depends on the low-wage person in charge of censorship that day.

Quizzical

As with most negative sounding terms, it typically means "something that I dislike".  If someone wants an environment to be toxic, they really mean they want it to be something disliked by particular other people that they dislike.

NorseGod

Quizzical said:

As with most negative sounding terms, it typically means "something that I dislike".  If someone wants an environment to be toxic, they really mean they want it to be something disliked by particular other people that they dislike.

Get with it man, it's current year. It's called "ecosystem" now, not "environment".

Slapshot1188

Use of the word "toxic" needs to fade away.

ChildoftheShadows

I always think of "misery loves company". If someone is being excessively negative to the point of or in attempt to bring other players down. That is being toxic.

Arglebargle

Folks who aren't playing the game to play the game:  They're playing to make other players unhappy. 

"What is "toxic" if it is permitted by gameplay and the ToS?"  -  This is almost verbatim the words of certain griefers and gankers trying to justify their behavior in an MMO that friends of mine worked on as GMs and moderators.

ChildoftheShadows

Arglebargle said:

Folks who aren't playing the game to play the game:  They're playing to make other players unhappy. 

"What is "toxic" if it is permitted by gameplay and the ToS?"  -  This is almost verbatim the words of certain griefers and gankers trying to justify their behavior in an MMO that friends of mine worked on as GMs and moderators.

Oh yeah, there are always those that will always push that line and see what they can get away with. Once they get in trouble they tend to get really loud on the forums about how they were mistreated and singled out even though they were "following the tos".

Horusra

Pretty much the same as in any sport or game.  Cheating, excessive taunting, humiliating others, etc.  Think of things that get called for fouls or penalties in most sports.

k61977

There are two types of toxic for me.  There are the elitist that think they know everything and you have to do exactly what they want when they want.  Then you have the sociopath that enjoys taunting and humiliating others, whether that be something as simple as chain killing someone, spawn camping, ect...

NorseGod

Horusra said:

Pretty much the same as in any sport or game.  Cheating, excessive taunting, humiliating others, etc.  Think of things that get called for fouls or penalties in most sports.

"Ref, that guy that hit a game winning grand slam, excessively humiliated me."

What are you even talking about, man? Gaming is not sports and gamers are not athletes. It's a totally different culture of people with a different mindset.

"Coach, he offended me with his bad words." -said nobody ever.

RexKushman

 I've always secretly dreamed of hard linked IRL identities tied to internet accounts. I imagine the look on some shithead teenagers face when they meet real consequences for their behavior... I picture it being something like this..this guy is a fucking hero



Until then I'll just stick with mostly pve games, still some toxicity but much more managable.

Horusra

NorseGod said:

Horusra said:

Pretty much the same as in any sport or game.  Cheating, excessive taunting, humiliating others, etc.  Think of things that get called for fouls or penalties in most sports.

"Ref, that guy that hit a game winning grand slam, excessively humiliated me."

What are you even talking about, man? Gaming is not sports and gamers are not athletes. It's a totally different culture of people with a different mindset.

"Coach, he offended me with his bad words." -said nobody ever.

I can tell you have never played a team sport.  Your last line shows that.  It is not swearing it is taunting.  Telling someone you fucked them up is  toxic saying out loud you got fucked up is not.  One gets a penalty cause the game does not want it and the other does not.

Wenchesnmead

NorseGod said:

What are you even talking about, man? Gaming is not sports and gamers are not athletes. It's a totally different culture of people with a different mindset.

You have never played sports in your life im guessing?

NorseGod

Horusra said:

NorseGod said:

Horusra said:

I can tell you have never played a team sport. 

Funny, I was going to say the same thing to you.

But then again, I went through high school in the early '90s. We didn't have warm soy milk back then and damn sure didn't have cry-ins in the locker room. So it sounds that things have changed. Sad. You missed out.

Or you're LARPing.

klash2def

RexKushman said:

 I've always secretly dreamed of hard linked IRL identities tied to internet accounts. I imagine the look on some shithead teenagers face when they meet real consequences for their behavior... I picture it being something like this..this guy is a fucking hero



Until then I'll just stick with mostly pve games, still some toxicity but much more managable.

Dude this is a full ass grown man who was getting taunted by a group of little girls. Watch the video closely, instead of leaving and walking away (as he should have) he pushed the girl then punched her lights out.  This is assault on a minor. He is in jail now. The story is he was trying to break up a fight which again, isn't his place, he should have called the police.

I don't give a damn how loud they are or how much they taunt you, you never as a full grown ass man punch out a 11 year unarmed old child. At that point it does not matter what she said, you are punching a child. 

"Oh they were yelling at him." so what. they are kids, walk away and go home. wtf..... 

why are you glorifying this shit? its nothing heroic about punching a loudmouth 11 year old in the face as a full grown as 50 something year old man. 

NorseGod

klash2def said:

RexKushman said:

 

 he was trying to break up a fight 

I blame that Gillette commercial. Got a source on this story?

RexKushman

klash2def said:

RexKushman said:

 I've always secretly dreamed of hard linked IRL identities tied to internet accounts. I imagine the look on some shithead teenagers face when they meet real consequences for their behavior... I picture it being something like this..this guy is a fucking hero



Until then I'll just stick with mostly pve games, still some toxicity but much more managable.

Dude this is a full ass grown man who was getting taunted by a group of little girls. Watch the video closely, instead of leaving and walking away (as he should have) he pushed the girl then punched her lights out.  This is assault on a minor. He is in jail now. The story is he was trying to break up a fight which again, isn't his place, he should have called the police.

I don't give a damn how loud they are or how much they taunt you, you never as a full grown ass man punch out a 11 year unarmed old child. At that point it does not matter what she said, you are punching a child. 

"Oh they were yelling at him." so what. they are kids, walk away and go home. wtf..... 

why are you glorifying this shit? its nothing heroic about punching a loudmouth 11 year old in the face as a full grown as 50 something year old man. 

We'll have to agree to disagree on this. I think the whole "breaking up a fight isn't his place" nonsense is exactly what leads to people acting the way those "kids" were. Once she put her hands on him, which she did first, its a green light as far as I'm concerned. If people were more willing to confront others on their shit behavior we'd be living in a much better world. 
 

MadFrenchie

RexKushman said:

klash2def said:

RexKushman said:

 I've always secretly dreamed of hard linked IRL identities tied to internet accounts. I imagine the look on some shithead teenagers face when they meet real consequences for their behavior... I picture it being something like this..this guy is a fucking hero



Until then I'll just stick with mostly pve games, still some toxicity but much more managable.

Dude this is a full ass grown man who was getting taunted by a group of little girls. Watch the video closely, instead of leaving and walking away (as he should have) he pushed the girl then punched her lights out.  This is assault on a minor. He is in jail now. The story is he was trying to break up a fight which again, isn't his place, he should have called the police.

I don't give a damn how loud they are or how much they taunt you, you never as a full grown ass man punch out a 11 year unarmed old child. At that point it does not matter what she said, you are punching a child. 

"Oh they were yelling at him." so what. they are kids, walk away and go home. wtf..... 

why are you glorifying this shit? its nothing heroic about punching a loudmouth 11 year old in the face as a full grown as 50 something year old man. 

We'll have to agree to disagree on this. I think the whole "breaking up a fight isn't his place" nonsense is exactly what leads to people acting the way those "kids" were. Once she put her hands on him, which she did first, its a green light as far as I'm concerned. If people were more willing to confront others on their shit behavior we'd be living in a much better world. 
 

Have to disagree when it comes to children.  It's well-documented that their underdeveloped brains do not have the same capacity for impulse control adult brains do.  That's why kids can't be advertised to in the same way adults can.  He was even the first of the two to initiate physical contact by shoving her.


The kids weren't right, but that guy could've literally grabbed that girl by the arms and dangled her in front of himself (assuming he isn't a complete and utter slob and weakling).  There's nothing to be admired about damaging a person so relatively fragile to you.

SaunZ

toxic in mmorpg games is when a guy tells you he will run quests, dungeons and pvp with you... but then he runs with another girl because she has prettier gear.

Sz 

Celcius

Toxicity in games is less to do with game design and more to do with players. There are occasions where emergent gameplay can lead to toxicity more frequently, but it is still ultimately on the players. 

Caffynated

It used to mean people who threw temper tantrums and made the game less enjoyable. Ragers in LoL are the archetypal toxic gamer.

Now it's a meaningless buzzword that midwits throw out like "incel" or "alt-right" with no idea what they're talking about.

Phry

Caffynated said:

It used to mean people who threw temper tantrums and made the game less enjoyable. Ragers in LoL are the archetypal toxic gamer.

Now it's a meaningless buzzword that midwits throw out like "incel" or "alt-right" with no idea what they're talking about.

Probably how the term NPC came into being, users of terms like incels and alt-right etc. came under the NPC term as a lot of their arguments/accusations seemed to be 'scripted', kind of hillarious though that gaming terminology could be used in that way, accurately in some cases