I might be forgetting some detail but not like i can remember everything about the thousands of games that come through these turn styles.However i seem to remember that he was claiming the profits would come from some $5 death penalty idea. There was no mention of asking us for money,although that did come about 2 weeks later.I was very skeptical o the $5 dollar death penalty idea and thought ok the price/cost is fair bu not if there is some exploit that encourages dying,that would turn it into p2w.
Well it did not take very long before it became far worse than that.Caspien/team became a sellout to money,nothing uncommon in this industry but it is what it is.
So if you want to be misleading...dishonest,ruin your own game for the almighty dollar,you deserve any backlash you receive.
Here is the ordeal...The original idea is great,some nice housing ideas,i like the systems,we were never given ANYTHING to go on about the world or creatures but what was told seemed good enough.All of this was great IF he got the money up front to make it happen,you CANNOT develop a game properly going on an uncertain budget.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
@StaalBurgher As you know, the last event was literally built around RNG lootboxes. They raised $300k per Caspien.
Is that something to be proud of?
Is there anything they wont sell to get the funds? Do you care? That’s an honest question. This is the guy who said that one of the main reason he doesn’t have a publisher is lootboxes. Now, not only will SoulPacks be sold after launch (RNG packs of souls to make characters, some of which will start with a multiple years skill ramp) but now he literally built a whole event around RNG sales. Are you really OK with that?
PS- The player base is still minuscule. 20k paid accounts last I heard with huge bunches barely interested any more. They keep raising money by selling more advantages to the same people. Do you really think that’s healthy?
No, it is not something to be proud of, I don't like it at all. Although I can't remember the details now of what you are calling "lootboxes". I really don't follow the ins-and-outs of this project. I do know however that there is often a lot of hyperbole around here.
Well for one he won't sell control to a publisher...? There is that at least.
No, I don't care for the purposes of getting this particular game built. This is the only project that is attempting to do permadeath and online character persistence. I feel even ritual human sacrifice could be justified.
No, I don't think it is healthy selling advantages in-game.
I just don't see other options available to them. None of this explains 300 threads of "criticism". Will all these negatives cause the game to fail? Potentially but we don't know exactly. What we do know is that without money there will be no game at all.
@StaalBurgher As you know, the last event was literally built around RNG lootboxes. They raised $300k per Caspien.
Is that something to be proud of?
Is there anything they wont sell to get the funds? Do you care? That’s an honest question. This is the guy who said that one of the main reason he doesn’t have a publisher is lootboxes. Now, not only will SoulPacks be sold after launch (RNG packs of souls to make characters, some of which will start with a multiple years skill ramp) but now he literally built a whole event around RNG sales. Are you really OK with that?
PS- The player base is still minuscule. 20k paid accounts last I heard with huge bunches barely interested any more. They keep raising money by selling more advantages to the same people. Do you really think that’s healthy?
No, it is not something to be proud of, I don't like it at all. Although I can't remember the details now of what you are calling "lootboxes". I really don't follow the ins-and-outs of this project. I do know however that there is often a lot of hyperbole around here.
Well for one he won't sell control to a publisher...? There is that at least.
No, I don't care for the purposes of getting this particular game built. This is the only project that is attempting to do permadeath and online character persistence. I feel even ritual human sacrifice could be justified.
No, I don't think it is healthy selling advantages in-game.
I just don't see other options available to them. None of this explains 300 threads of "criticism". Will all these negatives cause the game to fail? Potentially but we don't know exactly. What we do know is that without money there will be no game at all.
If he would start to do what he says he will do a lot if the criticism goes away. Take for example the fact that over a year ago he gave a State of Elyria post listing 3 major milestones for 2018. One of which was just days/weeks away supposedly. He delivered zero. Not one. Does that deserve criticism? Has that been addressed on his official forums?
Has there even been a published updated schedule (as promised) in years? It’s 2019 and last one I see was mid 2017.
Or more on target with the thread: When this site finally posts an article questioning the game’s progress, after years of support including helping him launch his Kickstarter, is it appropriate for him to state he’s cutting this site off and is going to funnel all his exclusives through PCGamer? A site which as far as I can tell has had a total of one article about COE.
Should he be criticized for responding like that?
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
But there is. I know a lot of players who have stopped putting money in the game because they aren't seeing progress. There are people that come here and say if you could see NDA chat you would see progress being made.
Does no one else see how insane it is that backers are being blocked from actual information because they haven't spent enough money? Now we have information paywalls.
If there is actual information that in the 10k+ exclusive that shows progress or eases fears. Share that with the other backers. Then, they might feel better about the progress of the game and would likely be more willing to go back to buying the random items that are sold in the digital store.
If he would start to do what he says he will do a lot if the criticism goes away.
Aww Slap ol buddy.. you are under the illusion that he can do what he said he will do..
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
If he would start to do what he says he will do a lot if the criticism goes away. Take for example the fact that over a year ago he gave a State of Elyria post listing 3 major milestones for 2018. One of which was just days/weeks away supposedly. He delivered zero. Not one. Does that deserve criticism? Has that been addressed on his official forums?
Has there even been a published updated schedule (as promised) in years? It’s 2019 and last one I see was mid 2017.
Or more on target with the thread: When this site finally posts an article questioning the game’s progress, after years of support including helping him launch his Kickstarter, is it appropriate for him to state he’s cutting this site off and is going to funnel all his exclusives through PCGamer? A site which as far as I can tell has had a total of one article about COE.
Should he be criticized for responding like that?
I think right now they are struggling with the extreme technical difficulties of their design. Lots of the "easier" stuff has been done but now they have to put things together. Difficulties that can potentially sink the whole project which, fair enough, lots of people on here said is likely to happen. Naturally you need to have milestones to keep yourself on track internally but I don't think they should publish any. It is just not going to be accurate. They are learning on the job to a great extent and this is where a major drawback of public development is revealing itself. They are locked into a lot of design choices. They are limited in what they can change to ease some of the technical sticking points. Not that I am asking for sympathy for them on that score. You live by crowdfunding, you die by crowdfunding.
But please don't pretend that this site was ever supportive of COE. At the beginning it was maybe a bit more balanced but there were many ridiculous claims about scams and cash grabs because of the billing model, talents etc. Over the top rubbish right from the get go.
The posters here have been celebrating every real or imagined problem they have had for at least the last 12 months. It is not out of the blue for him to "cut MMORPG out". *face palm* Don't get me wrong, I think it is stupid. Caspian should shut up and get on with his project. You can't punish the internet for not liking you. It's absurd. Although it is clear big publishers get an easier ride when it comes to previews. It is unfair but that is life. Moaning about it is not going to help. That is why I have to *face palm* when Caspian once again comments publicly about this rubbish. Just shut up for God's sake.
Yet... 300 threads, man, 3-0-0 threads... for a project you all think is going nowhere because (1) project lead is incompetent, (2) design is technically impossible, (3) there is no market for it. The only thing that has kept up this posting activity is your collective dislike of Caspian.
Hey slapshot, totally agree with everything you have said. I was wondering though was that a screen grab from twitter? I tried looking him up and couldn't find him.
Hey slapshot, totally agree with everything you have said. I was wondering though was that a screen grab from twitter? I tried looking him up and couldn't find him.
But there is. I know a lot of players who have stopped putting money in the game because they aren't seeing progress. There are people that come here and say if you could see NDA chat you would see progress being made.
Does no one else see how insane it is that backers are being blocked from actual information because they haven't spent enough money? Now we have information paywalls.
If there is actual information that in the 10k+ exclusive that shows progress or eases fears. Share that with the other backers. Then, they might feel better about the progress of the game and would likely be more willing to go back to buying the random items that are sold in the digital store.
I don't see how that has anything to do with their funding methods. They would still have to sell cash shop items or something. Whether it is from a larger percentage of the population isn't relevant.
It would be funny if it weren't for the fact that major publishers do the same thing. Keep writing positive stuff about games and never give out poor reviews for publishers is how ign got exclusive access to anthem. Question things and give poor reviews is how you miss out on press events.
I would agree if the franchise in question or the developer was a proven commodity that delivers, but you cant expect this kind of treatment for an unproven asset or company. Yes I can see someone kissing Apple or Ubisoft's ass for some sort of exclusive but "Bobs Software Studio" isn't going get that kind of treatment.
I don't see how that has anything to do with their funding methods. They would still have to sell cash shop items or something. Whether it is from a larger percentage of the population isn't relevant.
Because if someone feels comfortable in a project they are more likely to suggest it to a friend. If I'm not paying for something and decide I don't like it, I'm certainly not going to tell my friend to also pay for it.
And I had no illusion they would close the digital store. It simply gives a larger crowd who may feel more comfortable buying items.
And again, an information paywall is simply a poor system, Completely regardless of making money.
If there is actual information that in the 10k+ exclusive that shows progress or eases fears. Share that with the other backers.
...what would be a point in spending that much money if you got the same level of 'involvement' as those who spent way less?
Just because you don't get/disagree with something does not make it insane.
What? I thought these backers wanted to support passion projects, not buy their way into elite little (largely superfluous) social circles..
It's almost like these folks' primary motivation isn't an altruism to help innovative projects get funded at all, but the idea they're getting some kind of unprecedented deal for buying into the hype earlier than ever before.... Crazy.
I think right now they are struggling with the extreme technical difficulties of their design. ...
They are locked into a lot of design choices. They are limited in what they can change to ease some of the technical sticking points.
...
These are the two main points I wish to discuss here.
First, extreme technical difficulties. SBS/Caspien brought this on themselves with the SpatialOS fiasco. They relied on a technology believing it did things that it didn't. Basically, they underestimated the difficulty, had a nebulous technical plan without any backup plans. Their technology plan appears to be woefully inadequate, built without an accurate or complete understanding the core technology they wanted to use. SpatialOS sounded good to them, but I don't think they actually understood what it could and couldn't do. So, when they did discover the limitations of SpatialOS, they discarded that technology as a platform, and are trying to build a platform themselves without any background, experience or aptitude for building systems-level.
Second. Design choices. The only thing locking SBS/Caspien into any design choice is Caspien's own stubbornness. He made wild claims about features of his game, and is discovering that these features may not be feasible. He is driving on towards the cliff, despite numerous warning signs that suggest an alternate ways down. It wasn't his original plan and he doesn't give credence to the warnings or suggestions because others told him that first. This seems to clearly be an ego issue. He made promises. People criticized promises. He thinks, "I'll show them!", and continues down the original path just to prove that his detractors were wrong. He sees changing plans or cutting features as some kind of personal insult. He'd lose face in his mind, and that isn't happening.
There's a chance that I'm misreading the situation based on information hidden behind some paywall. But this is just me analyzing the personality behind the public events that have occurred / are occurring with CoE.
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
Mendel said: SBS/Caspien brought this on themselves with the SpatialOS fiasco.
They relied on a technology believing it did things that it didn't.
Basically, they underestimated the difficulty, had a nebulous technical plan without any backup plans.
Their technology plan appears to be woefully inadequate, built without an accurate or complete understanding the core technology they wanted to use.
SpatialOS sounded good to them, but I don't think they actually understood what it could and couldn't do.
So, when they did discover the limitations of SpatialOS.
Can you elaborate why one could anticipate SpatialOS scripting language depriciation?
Can you elaborate what SpatialOS couldn't do?
Can you elaborate on their 'technical plan' - whatever that is supposed be, and provide some evidence of lack of backup plans/alternatives?
Can you elaborate and enlighten me with complete understanding of core technology they wanted to use and where exactly their 'technical plans' were supposedly inadequate?
Can you elaborate what SpatialOS can and can't do?
Can you elaborate on those limitations?
You certainly must be way past any 'paywall' to posses all that very internal knowledge of the project, not to say pro level experience in sw/game development.
This thread exposes an ongoing problem with gaming journalism.
In order to have access to studios, gaming journalist (Disclaimer: Not all of them) have to give glowing reviews or be sanctioned by the studio. And that's if studios don't out-right pay for good reviews with their marketing budgets.
It should be the other way around. If a studio wants glowing reviews, then make a good game.
Studio Access = New Site Content = Site Traffic = Advertisements = $$$ = Motive
That's why gaming journalist reviews are not proof that a game is good. Is it good? Or did they say good things because the have to?
Absolutely agree! People have different like and dislikes in games and that's ok, but some things can be judged objectively with more or less standard parameters. Caspian's temper tantrum has nothing to do with objectivity and everything to do with unrealistic expectations. Once you start expecting people(gamers and journalists) to ignore facts and/or shady business practices then you have already lost. If journalists are cornered into waxing poetic over a turd sandwich then the articles they write will become as useless as the occasional fodder they are obligated to cover. Stand tough mmorpg.com and don't let them wear you down!
The posters here have been celebrating every real or imagined problem they have had for at least the last 12 months. It is not out of the blue for him to "cut MMORPG out". *face palm* Don't get me wrong, I think it is stupid. Caspian should shut up and get on with his project. You can't punish the internet for not liking you. It's absurd. Although it is clear big publishers get an easier ride when it comes to previews. It is unfair but that is life. Moaning about it is not going to help. That is why I have to *face palm* when Caspian once again comments publicly about this rubbish. Just shut up for God's sake.
Yet... 300 threads, man, 3-0-0 threads... for a project you all think is going nowhere because (1) project lead is incompetent, (2) design is technically impossible, (3) there is no market for it. The only thing that has kept up this posting activity is your collective dislike of Caspian.
@Slapshot1188 - creates the majority of the threads about this game. Ironically, his personal crusade and witch-hunt aside, he probably is the greatest PR/ally the game has on this site.
Tbh, I wouldn't even remember this game existed if it weren't for his constant critical threads.
I don't think anyone is "celebrating" their problems, but some folks around here do like that "I was right!" feeling. Even Slapshot didn't start out wanting them to fail... though, I think he might have boarded the actual hate-train over time.
You are only proving the point for why there's so much criticism of Caspien, though. You, yourself, are *face palm*ing and saying he needs to just shut up and go make his game.
That's kind of where most of the criticism comes from. He just keeps saying dumb things that make him look childish and ridiculous and throwing fits whenever anyone questions him, rather than showing some kind of work.
There's just not much else to say about the project, currently. As it stands now, all we ever see is Caspien's big mouth.. well, there's the fundraisers too. There just isn't much other news about CoE.
If they ever start showing some type of actual game, or even just hire a competent PR person, then there'd be something worth having a real discussion.
Easy, by reading the SpatialOS documentation. The JavaScript language was clearly marked as "experimental".
...and?
Experimental software is one of the highest risk factors in COCOMO modelling. Their planned use of a high risk software platform makes their plan suspect. If you don't feel that is a factor in project success, well, that's on you.
And, my knowledge of SpatialOS isn't the issue, SBS's is. My opinion based on public information is that SBS clearly did not understand fully what the product did and didn't do. Instead, it appears they projected their wishes and hopes onto a product's features. They thought SpatialOS could do what they wanted. When they decided it didn't fit their needs, they abandoned it. To me, that is entirely SBS's fault. And choosing to rebuild a core technology when a project had intended to use an off-the-shelf solution is a major project setback, no matter what project management methodology you choose to employ.
I don't have personal experience with SpatialOS. I have no real need to. I do, however, read, particularly about new technology, especially new technology pertaining to MMORPG development.
So, in questioning me about SpatialOS, you've shown not to be capable of understanding me. Because I was concentrating on how SBS has approached and tried to use SpatialOS, not any criticism of the product. SBS is the one who has chosen to discard that package and not modifying their game designs that *might* be impractical or unfeasible to implement.
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
Comments
There was no mention of asking us for money,although that did come about 2 weeks later.I was very skeptical o the $5 dollar death penalty idea and thought ok the price/cost is fair bu not if there is some exploit that encourages dying,that would turn it into p2w.
Well it did not take very long before it became far worse than that.Caspien/team became a sellout to money,nothing uncommon in this industry but it is what it is.
So if you want to be misleading...dishonest,ruin your own game for the almighty dollar,you deserve any backlash you receive.
Here is the ordeal...The original idea is great,some nice housing ideas,i like the systems,we were never given ANYTHING to go on about the world or creatures but what was told seemed good enough.All of this was great IF he got the money up front to make it happen,you CANNOT develop a game properly going on an uncertain budget.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
Well for one he won't sell control to a publisher...? There is that at least.
No, I don't care for the purposes of getting this particular game built. This is the only project that is attempting to do permadeath and online character persistence. I feel even ritual human sacrifice could be justified.
No, I don't think it is healthy selling advantages in-game.
I just don't see other options available to them. None of this explains 300 threads of "criticism". Will all these negatives cause the game to fail? Potentially but we don't know exactly. What we do know is that without money there will be no game at all.
Has there even been a published updated schedule (as promised) in years? It’s 2019 and last one I see was mid 2017.
Or more on target with the thread: When this site finally posts an article questioning the game’s progress, after years of support including helping him launch his Kickstarter, is it appropriate for him to state he’s cutting this site off and is going to funnel all his exclusives through PCGamer? A site which as far as I can tell has had a total of one article about COE.
Should he be criticized for responding like that?
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
But there is. I know a lot of players who have stopped putting money in the game because they aren't seeing progress. There are people that come here and say if you could see NDA chat you would see progress being made.
Does no one else see how insane it is that backers are being blocked from actual information because they haven't spent enough money? Now we have information paywalls.
If there is actual information that in the 10k+ exclusive that shows progress or eases fears. Share that with the other backers. Then, they might feel better about the progress of the game and would likely be more willing to go back to buying the random items that are sold in the digital store.
But please don't pretend that this site was ever supportive of COE. At the beginning it was maybe a bit more balanced but there were many ridiculous claims about scams and cash grabs because of the billing model, talents etc. Over the top rubbish right from the get go.
The posters here have been celebrating every real or imagined problem they have had for at least the last 12 months. It is not out of the blue for him to "cut MMORPG out". *face palm* Don't get me wrong, I think it is stupid. Caspian should shut up and get on with his project. You can't punish the internet for not liking you. It's absurd. Although it is clear big publishers get an easier ride when it comes to previews. It is unfair but that is life. Moaning about it is not going to help. That is why I have to *face palm* when Caspian once again comments publicly about this rubbish. Just shut up for God's sake.
Yet... 300 threads, man, 3-0-0 threads... for a project you all think is going nowhere because (1) project lead is incompetent, (2) design is technically impossible, (3) there is no market for it. The only thing that has kept up this posting activity is your collective dislike of Caspian.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
Just because you don't get/disagree with something does not make it insane.
And again, an information paywall is simply a poor system, Completely regardless of making money.
It's almost like these folks' primary motivation isn't an altruism to help innovative projects get funded at all, but the idea they're getting some kind of unprecedented deal for buying into the hype earlier than ever before.... Crazy.
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
Can you elaborate what SpatialOS couldn't do?
Can you elaborate on their 'technical plan' - whatever that is supposed be, and provide some evidence of lack of backup plans/alternatives?
Can you elaborate and enlighten me with complete understanding of core technology they wanted to use and where exactly their 'technical plans' were supposedly inadequate?
Can you elaborate what SpatialOS can and can't do?
Can you elaborate on those limitations?
You certainly must be way past any 'paywall' to posses all that very internal knowledge of the project, not to say pro level experience in sw/game development.
Thanks.
https://forums.improbable.io/t/javascript-sdk-removed-in-version-12/3188
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.