Well I am not sure what anyone else's take away was from this, but this topic has shown me something in regards to PvP games.
I read what other people have said about why they enjoy PvP games, and thought about why I play PvP focused games, and it was simple, I play a PvP game because I enjoy the fights. I enjoy the whole thrill of facing and fighting another player, with that said, the more convoluted fuckery that a company puts into the game that pulls away from this, just makes the game worse.
With that pointed out, Battle Royal games, which are basically Full Loot Open World PvP Games that have been refined down to the purest form of this mechanic, makes it so that none of these other Indie games will have any chance to pull in a larger audience, by offering those same mechanics with a bunch of unnecessary bullshit attached.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
Well I am not sure what anyone else's take away was from this, but this topic has shown me something in regards to PvP games.
I read what other people have said about why they enjoy PvP games, and thought about why I play PvP focused games, and it was simple, I play a PvP game because I enjoy the fights. I enjoy the whole thrill of facing and fighting another player, with that said, the more convoluted fuckery that a company puts into the game that pulls away from this, just makes the game worse.
With that pointed out, Battle Royal games, which are basically Full Loot Open World PvP Games that have been refined down to the purest form of this mechanic, makes it so that none of these other Indie games will have any chance to pull in a larger audience, by offering those same mechanics with a bunch of unnecessary bullshit attached.
"For you."
Look, it's no different today than it was 10-15 years ago. There are people that enjoy PVP and those than don't. Of those that do a small number enjoy it mixed with their MMORPG. Of those there is a small number that enjoy full loot as well. When someone that likes either of those styles develops a game, that's the style they develop.
I play pvp mmos because I enjoy the fights, the experience, the win, the loss, all of it. I don't play any type of arena game be it BR or otherwise because it's all meaningless. There is no feeling of loss, no reason to stay alive other than a score board which I don't care about. That "unnecessary bullshit" is a requirement for me. Without it the game is dull and boring.
It's the same for PVE games for me too. When they removed experience loss in newer games like WoW and EQ2 I no
longer feared death there either. It's the same thing. I want that
feeling. GW2 took that lame shit a step further. I TRIED to die in GW2
and I swear to god the game tried to keep me alive on it's own, what a
damn joke.
ChildoftheShadows said: I TRIED to die in GW2
and I swear to god the game tried to keep me alive on it's own, what a
damn joke.
You must not have been trying that hard, it's super easy to die in that game, just fall off a ledge.
or play PvP, the other players are more than happy to show you how easy it is to die.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
Look, it's no different today than it was 10-15 years ago. There are people that enjoy PVP and those than don't. Of those that do a small number enjoy it mixed with their MMORPG. Of those there is a small number that enjoy full loot as well. When someone that likes either of those styles develops a game, that's the style they develop.
I play pvp mmos because I enjoy the fights, the experience, the win, the loss, all of it. I don't play any type of arena game be it BR or otherwise because it's all meaningless. There is no feeling of loss, no reason to stay alive other than a score board which I don't care about. That "unnecessary bullshit" is a requirement for me. Without it the game is dull and boring.
It's the same for PVE games for me too. When they removed experience loss in newer games like WoW and EQ2 I no
longer feared death there either. It's the same thing. I want that
feeling. GW2 took that lame shit a step further. I TRIED to die in GW2
and I swear to god the game tried to keep me alive on it's own, what a
damn joke.
No, there are people who like to compete, and others who do not. Many people are afraid from competition and even more from competition with consequences. And in fact many of them hates it. Because fear always leads to aggression. So some of them are aggressive in the forums. Some are aggressive with words and actions - KS and griefing in the games, if it is allowed. Honestly that kind of players are few. Then come the players who agree to compete, but do not like the consequences. They are many. They can swallow a lost game in LoL and Fortnite, but cannot do the same with a long term MMORPG. They are usually cooperative, as they see in cooperation way to play safer. Then come the players who like to compete and cooperate, both. The majority. They just play games and have fun, so the lost game, or gear, in general time, it is not a big deal. And then come the players who dislike cooperation, but want to compete. Often these solo players terrorize the others. There are psychological reasons behind every of these behaviors.
This entire post is based on a faulty premise because in the full loot PvP game I play there are many lootable items which are rare, very hard to come by, or which represent hundreds of hours of effort. This is what I mean by "the irreplaceability and relative indestructibility of items" back on page 14. I'm not interested in "what other posters have said" as much as my own play experiences. One is theory, the other is evidence.
"Overall the largest economic effect is that high ticket items have no value" is patently ridiculous. Risk doesn't decrease value; if anything it increases the value of certain items.
Just to be clear, are talking about the mobile game in your Sig ?
It's a PC game which runs on mobile; the very first MMORPG ported from one to the other, and it runs cross platform.
I'll take that as a yes.
Alright, again.
My Theseus that Risk does in fact decrease the value of items in a Full Loot Game.
I base this on the game mechanic itself, where Full Loot makes it so someone can take all the equipment from another player, so with that in mind, what motive does anyone have to invest large sums of time (Translated anyway you want, In Game Coin, Time Spent Farming, Buying Items from the Auction House, Etc) into purchasing or posses these high ticket items if they can be very easily taken from them?
Again, look at what all the other posters that have talked about equipment when playing Full Loot Games, all gear should be low cost easy to replace stuff.
With a core point of: Never have something you can't afford to lose.
In a game like that, the only worth of a high ticket item is to give the illusion of value tiers, but in reality those that get these rare drops often will just auction house (or Bank and Sell via another means) them because otherwise someone will be able to kill them for it and they make nothing from this, with the flip side of that set up, is no one has any motive to actually buy theses high ticket items, because someone can just kill them for it and take all their investment away.
In fact, many posters on this topic alone have expressed openly the thrill they get when they loot high ticket item off another player, that is what they want from the game, players foolishly investing into these high ticket items, but, at the same time, none of them would even think of using or equipping these items, for the very reason that someone would enjoy taking it from them.
Thus these items are more a burden to the game than a boon, and typically all that happens are these rare drop items end up in banks, or auction houses, where they can't be stolen.
So, now it is your tern to tell me how these High Ticket Items have any real value in that kind of environment.
Or maybe explain to me why anyone would spend 100's of hours on an item in a game where it can be stolen from them in a matter of seconds.
And to be open here, this is a huge part of my theory on why these games die, so if you can put a dent into this, this would open the door to a total reconsideration of my stand on these games.
Well then here is my Lycomedes:
The following is a supply and demand curve diagram. Perhaps you're familiar with the concept.
Curve on the right is supply, curve on the left is demand. Where they intersect is equilibrium. X axis is quantity, Y axis is price. Let's say some pirates begin interrupting the supply of a given item by looting it from other players (very loosely, this is "Risk"). This will shift the supply curve to the left (decreased quantity):
As you can see, the new equilibrium is at a higher price. If you were holding a given quantity of a certain item subject to increased risk, that item is now worth more currency. Value has increased. Q.E.D.
This isn't just a theory, of course. I've actually watched it happen.
Circling back around to your argument, "no one has any motive to actually buy theses high ticket items, because someone can just kill them for it and take all their investment away" isn't really true. This is like asking what's the point in living if one day you have to die? The point is, well, to live.
Motivations could be to use the items in such and such a way, or perhaps to sell them according to shifting market currents. Just because there is risk associated with a particular endeavor, that doesn't take away the purpose of the endeavor.
"The simple is the seal of the true and beauty is the splendor of truth" -Subrahmanyan Chandrasekhar Authored 139 missions in VendettaOnline and 6 tracks in Distance
We have seen so many games coming out during the years that promise great gameplay and full loot PVP.
Has it ever worked I mean really?
We can take an example, a classic indi sandbox full loot mantra we have all heard.
Be a crafter
Be a villian
Be a hunter of rare animals
Be a trader and make your fortune by trade.
Be a guildleader and stake your claim on a land and prosper to create a kingdom
Yadda Yadda Yadda
We have all heard these classic commercial phrases, but really they all have come down to pure pvp nothing about pve just pvp with a very small gaming community that hails it for the win.
It dosent matter how much pve activity you put into your game the game will die with full loot pvp due to the simple reason the majority don't like full loot pvp and those who enjoys it are the ones who stick around hence the lable MMO full loot pvp arena for a game that suppose to be an adventure with trade, craft, exploration, building ect.
So sad really that indi developers never can understand the basics that full loot ppv never works no matter how much pve content you provide due to pvper gonna hurt your game and scare away the pve player and you end up with a pvp arena mmo that will burn slowly until the pvper finds another game and do it all over again.
There is an entire sub genre called "survival games" which seem to challenge some of your assertions.
Now as to why full loot is acceptable in survival games but not MMORPGs I'm still trying to figure out.
Survival games tend to be built around much smaller number of players. Some survival games can be 4 players max like 7 Days To Die on consoles. So they have mechanics around such. MMOs are built for large pool of players having the "possibility" of interacting at once. So trolls in MMOs would have a larger impact to sabotage compared to small scale games that are built around limited need to interact.
We have seen so many games coming out during the years that promise great gameplay and full loot PVP.
Has it ever worked I mean really?
We can take an example, a classic indi sandbox full loot mantra we have all heard.
Be a crafter
Be a villian
Be a hunter of rare animals
Be a trader and make your fortune by trade.
Be a guildleader and stake your claim on a land and prosper to create a kingdom
Yadda Yadda Yadda
We have all heard these classic commercial phrases, but really they all have come down to pure pvp nothing about pve just pvp with a very small gaming community that hails it for the win.
It dosent matter how much pve activity you put into your game the game will die with full loot pvp due to the simple reason the majority don't like full loot pvp and those who enjoys it are the ones who stick around hence the lable MMO full loot pvp arena for a game that suppose to be an adventure with trade, craft, exploration, building ect.
So sad really that indi developers never can understand the basics that full loot ppv never works no matter how much pve content you provide due to pvper gonna hurt your game and scare away the pve player and you end up with a pvp arena mmo that will burn slowly until the pvper finds another game and do it all over again.
There is an entire sub genre called "survival games" which seem to challenge some of your assertions.
Now as to why full loot is acceptable in survival games but not MMORPGs I'm still trying to figure out.
Survival games tend to be built around much smaller number of players. Some survival games can be 4 players max like 7 Days To Die on consoles. So they have mechanics around such. MMOs are built for large pool of players having the "possibility" of interacting at once. So trolls in MMOs would have a larger impact to sabotage compared to small scale games that are built around limited need to interact.
Survival games tend to have quicker progression or quicker harvesting and sometimes both so getting back to where you were is pretty easy. When making an MMO developers need to decide if they want long grinds for gear or not and develop loot rules around that. Players need to stop thinking that mmos need to have end game gear grinds too, so the idea of losing your gear is not that big of a deal and more of an inconvenience.
Still I think the best implementation either don’t have full loot or just have partial loot so players can have some long term gear progression/collection. The idea you could have long term gear collection (horizontal imo)give long term goals while the risk of loss could be resources.
We have seen so many games coming out during the years that promise great gameplay and full loot PVP.
Has it ever worked I mean really?
We can take an example, a classic indi sandbox full loot mantra we have all heard.
Be a crafter
Be a villian
Be a hunter of rare animals
Be a trader and make your fortune by trade.
Be a guildleader and stake your claim on a land and prosper to create a kingdom
Yadda Yadda Yadda
We have all heard these classic commercial phrases, but really they all have come down to pure pvp nothing about pve just pvp with a very small gaming community that hails it for the win.
It dosent matter how much pve activity you put into your game the game will die with full loot pvp due to the simple reason the majority don't like full loot pvp and those who enjoys it are the ones who stick around hence the lable MMO full loot pvp arena for a game that suppose to be an adventure with trade, craft, exploration, building ect.
So sad really that indi developers never can understand the basics that full loot ppv never works no matter how much pve content you provide due to pvper gonna hurt your game and scare away the pve player and you end up with a pvp arena mmo that will burn slowly until the pvper finds another game and do it all over again.
There is an entire sub genre called "survival games" which seem to challenge some of your assertions.
Now as to why full loot is acceptable in survival games but not MMORPGs I'm still trying to figure out.
Survival games tend to be built around much smaller number of players. Some survival games can be 4 players max like 7 Days To Die on consoles. So they have mechanics around such. MMOs are built for large pool of players having the "possibility" of interacting at once. So trolls in MMOs would have a larger impact to sabotage compared to small scale games that are built around limited need to interact.
I think it's more that the type of players and the fact that other activities usually come before survival and PvP.
Very interesting discussion, if you skip past the people saying the same thing over and over. Some common themes appear.
To answer the OP; They are making them because there is a demand for them. They understand they are niche and have gone the crowdfunding route to secure funding for the most part. The fact that a game like Camelot Unchained or Crowfall got funded proves a market.
The problem is, to date, no one has really done Full Loot PVP right. The games named in this thread are either 10-15 years old, or are still in an Alpha state, or were dismal bad games right out of the gate.
The developers of the new breed of sandbox MMO's have learned a great deal from the lessons of the past, and many of them have had much more hands on access to real data from those older games. Information we simply don't have.
That is why the founding Idea of Crowfall is that the war ends. The lands you fight over are dying, and will soon be gone, while your eternal Crow soul goes on to fight again. Eventually a winning side is declared, the world is destroyed, and you return to your Eternal Kingdom with the contents of your bank (from that one world) if you win, and only some of the contents of your bank if you lose. I could write an entire page just about Crowfall really. Suffice to say they have solved a good portion of the concerns posted in this thread. Now they just need to get to the point where the game play is sharp and fun and , you know, complete.
Quick bullet points on Crowfall and Loot; 1)There will be many worlds running at once, with different loot rules and different amounts of risk. Most of them not full loot. Some so full loot you can lose your actual body you are flying. 2)You can only enter a world with a small amount of items in your bank, and you can only leave a world with a small amount of items in your bank. Thus, the items made in that world are mostly for use in that world and are soon washed off to history, besides the small amount of (hopefully) good stuff you have stashed to leave the plane. 3) Someone said they wished someone would make Eve into a Fantasy MMO, and that is exactly what Crowfall is. Time based skill advancement? Check. Multiple worlds with differing risk/reward? Check. Fully player run economy outside of a few seed items? Check. Immortal pilot that can take on many forms? Check. Just compare the systems. Crowfall is Eve where you fly an elf or minotaur or whatever instead of a spaceship. 4) Crowfall will also have different rules per world besides just loot. It is a very complex system to try and explain. Some worlds will be guild vrs guild, some FFA, some godswars, some race wars, and even a random starsign war. The end result is a huge variety of world combinations of risk/reward AND mix of players. You might be playing alongside someone who was your mortal enemy in the previous dying world.
I could go on and on, but I will stop by saying you should at least check out what they are trying to do, because if they can pull it off with their random world generator and massive variety, it's going to be a very fun game.
Camelot Unchained on the other hand has its own hook, giant battles. That hasn't been done well yet either. I'm not as up to date on this game, but I am keeping an eye on it. If they manage to provide a stable mass battle game, that is fun to play, players will show up. Even if it is niche.
I'm currently playing a little Legends of Aria here and there. Haven't been killed yet. Wouldn't matter if I was. I already have literally Dozens of armor and weapon sets for my fighter. The game needs more time in the oven though. They are trying to finish the map, but they really need a polish pass on all of the skill and systems. All in good time I guess.
One final parting note...
If you ever played full loot PVP game and you got ganked, then you went back ALONE to get your stuff back, YOU ARE DOING IT WRONG. LOL. Really, just cut your losses and move on to doing something else for a while. Even ancient UO gave you 4 character slots for a reason.
( Note to self-Don't say anything bad about Drizzt.)
Very interesting discussion, if you skip past the people saying the same thing over and over. Some common themes appear.
To answer the OP; They are making them because there is a demand for them. They understand they are niche and have gone the crowdfunding route to secure funding for the most part. The fact that a game like Camelot Unchained or Crowfall got funded proves a market.
The problem is, to date, no one has really done Full Loot PVP right. The games named in this thread are either 10-15 years old, or are still in an Alpha state, or were dismal bad games right out of the gate.
The developers of the new breed of sandbox MMO's have learned a great deal from the lessons of the past, and many of them have had much more hands on access to real data from those older games. Information we simply don't have.
That is why the founding Idea of Crowfall is that the war ends. The lands you fight over are dying, and will soon be gone, while your eternal Crow soul goes on to fight again. Eventually a winning side is declared, the world is destroyed, and you return to your Eternal Kingdom with the contents of your bank (from that one world) if you win, and only some of the contents of your bank if you lose. I could write an entire page just about Crowfall really. Suffice to say they have solved a good portion of the concerns posted in this thread. Now they just need to get to the point where the game play is sharp and fun and , you know, complete.
Quick bullet points on Crowfall and Loot; 1)There will be many worlds running at once, with different loot rules and different amounts of risk. Most of them not full loot. Some so full loot you can lose your actual body you are flying. 2)You can only enter a world with a small amount of items in your bank, and you can only leave a world with a small amount of items in your bank. Thus, the items made in that world are mostly for use in that world and are soon washed off to history, besides the small amount of (hopefully) good stuff you have stashed to leave the plane. 3) Someone said they wished someone would make Eve into a Fantasy MMO, and that is exactly what Crowfall is. Time based skill advancement? Check. Multiple worlds with differing risk/reward? Check. Fully player run economy outside of a few seed items? Check. Immortal pilot that can take on many forms? Check. Just compare the systems. Crowfall is Eve where you fly an elf or minotaur or whatever instead of a spaceship. 4) Crowfall will also have different rules per world besides just loot. It is a very complex system to try and explain. Some worlds will be guild vrs guild, some FFA, some godswars, some race wars, and even a random starsign war. The end result is a huge variety of world combinations of risk/reward AND mix of players. You might be playing alongside someone who was your mortal enemy in the previous dying world.
I could go on and on, but I will stop by saying you should at least check out what they are trying to do, because if they can pull it off with their random world generator and massive variety, it's going to be a very fun game.
Camelot Unchained on the other hand has its own hook, giant battles. That hasn't been done well yet either. I'm not as up to date on this game, but I am keeping an eye on it. If they manage to provide a stable mass battle game, that is fun to play, players will show up. Even if it is niche.
I'm currently playing a little Legends of Aria here and there. Haven't been killed yet. Wouldn't matter if I was. I already have literally Dozens of armor and weapon sets for my fighter. The game needs more time in the oven though. They are trying to finish the map, but they really need a polish pass on all of the skill and systems. All in good time I guess.
One final parting note...
If you ever played full loot PVP game and you got ganked, then you went back ALONE to get your stuff back, YOU ARE DOING IT WRONG. LOL. Really, just cut your losses and move on to doing something else for a while. Even ancient UO gave you 4 character slots for a reason.
Screeps does it very correctly.
The inability to log out does an amazing job at reigning in "roleplay-less" combat (gains nothing in the form of land/security/politics).
The fact that making attack units uses the same energy resources as your economy units or for other investments, means that you can run the numbers of picking on a newbie and realize you come out behind.
Defenders have nice advantages meaning equal level combat turns into siege combat (meaning both sides get time to make plays) . And unequal combat turns into the above. Likewise a skilled weaker colony can disrupt high level economic strategies and force expensive standing forces, or find third parties that want to abuse misappropriated spending.
Players also get limited access to the ability to just say no to an attack. Though in some cases it will just delay it a day or two. It's also worth mentioning that it's not skill less, and that there is counter play in baiting out protection mode at the wrong time, the wrong place, or even to disrupt a third party.
It even has immensely skillful play and an amazing skill curve.
To a real FFA PvP this game should be like crack. Especially if they believe a FFA game should support multiple play styles like PvE, exploration, and similar.
Practice doesn't make perfect, practice makes permanent.
"At one point technology meant making tech that could get to the moon, now it means making tech that could get you a taxi."
Ungood said: Think about what others have said, They will all talk about how the gear they lose is easy to replace, in many ways, inconsequential to them, and will extol upon this virtue, or never having anything you are not willing to swiftly lose.
Now Obviously they are PK gankers with the goal to kill other players for loot, and thus outfit disposable gear as they hunt for players will less disposal loot to make the game profitable for them, and, less profitable for others.
But if everyone adopted their approach, just using disposable gear easy to recover gear, dying has no sting beyond dying to a PvP game that has no loot, or even dying to a PvE game, where nothing is lost, thus making the full loot a minor annoyance at best. As for the victor, they simply get loot gen trash that has no market value, so killing has little profit for them as well.
Overall the largest economic effect is that high ticket items have no value given all they provide is a greater loss to the person that has it, and a greater reward for the person that takes it. Which, makes it vastly pointless for anyone to buy.
This means, it lessens all the other aspects of the game that would lead up to those high ticket items.
Before you disagree with me, Again, read what other posters have said about when playing these games, they have easy to replace disposable gear.
Thus it becomes the inherent nature of the game design to devolve into a world of nothing but gankers, as no crafter or builder, or harvester is going to waste time in a game like that, as it is simply not profitable for them.
The only way this gets combated, is with a rise in mega guilds, where large guilds will take control of the higher value resources, protect their crafters and builders, and thus ensure that only they are theirs have access to the strongest and highest ticket items, this becomes a spiral upward, as they gain better gear, items, equipment and work in large teams to protect their own, thus ensure they maintain control and possession of their high ticket items, they build a vast power disparity between them and everyone else, and only other mega guilds can have a chance to rival them, thus everyone needs to be a thrall to a larger guild if they want to have any chance at meaningful progression, independents and small guilds may as well move on to some other game as well.
These systems by design are self defeating to community growth, or player progression.
In short, the Full Loot Mechanic does not add anything to the game that can't be provided better by other means.
You pretty much won the thread with this post. How is it these dev's cant figure this out? So easy to see but so many refuse to even think this out just a bit to come to the same obvious conclusion.
Perma death and full loot PvP are two completely separate ideas.
They are the exact same idea; A mechanics that adds risk to PvP.
As I see it, anyone too candy ass to play Perma Death but wants Full Loot is just a pitiful ganker looking for game full of loot pinatas, feel free to try and change my mind.
No.
Perma death means you only get one life.
Full loot means the winner can take everything.
They are different mechanics that have different effects on a large scale.
Well, we shall agree they have different effects on a large scale.
Full Loot Attracts Gankers and PKers who just want to prey upon the other members of the games population for their own gain.
Perma Death attracts people looking for a challenge.
Now ask you one question;
What does Full Loot Offer to a game environment, that Non-Loot cannot provide better, outside promoting murdering people for their loot.
I would say commutability of items and all the political spectra engendered thereby.
Look... have you ever played Dwarf Fortress? One of the great things about it is when you pick something up it's not just handed to you by the game but passed down from generations of previous owners, all of whom may have struggled over it for various reasons.
In a MMORPG this has a very real economic effect, as I hinted at earlier.
But it really does not have this effect.
Think about what others have said, They will all talk about how the gear they lose is easy to replace, in many ways, inconsequential to them, and will extol upon this virtue, or never having anything you are not willing to swiftly lose.
Now Obviously they are PK gankers with the goal to kill other players for loot, and thus outfit disposable gear as they hunt for players will less disposal loot to make the game profitable for them, and, less profitable for others.
But if everyone adopted their approach, just using disposable gear easy to recover gear, dying has no sting beyond dying to a PvP game that has no loot, or even dying to a PvE game, where nothing is lost, thus making the full loot a minor annoyance at best. As for the victor, they simply get loot gen trash that has no market value, so killing has little profit for them as well.
Overall the largest economic effect is that high ticket items have no value given all they provide is a greater loss to the person that has it, and a greater reward for the person that takes it. Which, makes it vastly pointless for anyone to buy.
This means, it lessens all the other aspects of the game that would lead up to those high ticket items.
Before you disagree with me, Again, read what other posters have said about when playing these games, they have easy to replace disposable gear.
Thus it becomes the inherent nature of the game design to devolve into a world of nothing but gankers, as no crafter or builder, or harvester is going to waste time in a game like that, as it is simply not profitable for them.
The only way this gets combated, is with a rise in mega guilds, where large guilds will take control of the higher value resources, protect their crafters and builders, and thus ensure that only they are theirs have access to the strongest and highest ticket items, this becomes a spiral upward, as they gain better gear, items, equipment and work in large teams to protect their own, thus ensure they maintain control and possession of their high ticket items, they build a vast power disparity between them and everyone else, and only other mega guilds can have a chance to rival them, thus everyone needs to be a thrall to a larger guild if they want to have any chance at meaningful progression, independents and small guilds may as well move on to some other game as well.
These systems by design are self defeating to community growth, or player progression.
In short, the Full Loot Mechanic does not add anything to the game that can't be provided better by other means.
I cannot see why people have classified @Ungood as a troll. I think especially here he has made some very valid points and I for one think having him banned has only diminished this discussion. That is not the way to handle differing opinions. I am honestly quite disappointed with the way some of you here bullied and had him removed from this discussion.
You pretty much won the thread with this post. How is it these dev's cant figure this out? So easy to see but so many refuse to even think this out just a bit to come to the same obvious conclusion.
Except for the fact that most of what he says is untrue.
1st paragraph - In most full loot PVP standard gear is easily made/purchased, but exceptional gear is more difficult to attain. Without a clear quick turnover and destruction of gear, crafting supply in a sandbox will quickly overwhelm demand, ruining the economy. 2nd paragraph - Not everyone is a PK Ganker. You need a strategy if you are a defender too. 3rd paragraph - It is not just disposable gear and nothing is lost. It is risk vrs reward. It is time invested. The rewards vary accordingly for everyone. 4th paragraph - Big ticket items do exist in most games and do have high value in most games. Most PvP player weigh the risk vrs reward of using a big ticket item, and are wise enough not to wear their best stuff when out soloing. Wearing weak gear is one strategy, wearing strong gear is another. 5th paragraph - Being able to lose an item does not automatically mean no one will try to get them. In fact some would say the greater risks heightens the game play. 6th paragraph - Just a reminder to read again while focusing on one point in a much larger issue. 7th paragraph - Prognostication? Nah, just an attempt to draw a conclusion from his own point of view. 8th paragraph - The only possible way this calamity can be countered is by Giant Monolithic Mega Guilds controlling your every move !! Not better game systems, or anything the developers can do. Get your tinfoil hats here! 9th paragraph - Another self serving conclusion. 10th sentence - Obviously.
Really, it is just a bunch of long winded hyperbole.
Beyond that, his views are myopic and backward looking at the games of the past. The new breed of sandboxes are well aware of these issues and are actively trying to eliminate them. There are valid reasons for gear removal in sandbox games. Full loot is
only one tool in that box. Most of the newer sandboxes coming are taking
multiple approaches.
The value of the loot destruction/full loot on death approach is that when two forces of immortal warriors battle, eventually you can remove your opponents ability to return to the field of battle and oppose you, at least temporarily. This stops the zerg fests where everyone just keeps coming back to the same battle again and again and again. Eventually the losing side has to pull back and make/buy/equip new gear.
Game systems matter.
( Note to self-Don't say anything bad about Drizzt.)
Perma death and full loot PvP are two completely separate ideas.
They are the exact same idea; A mechanics that adds risk to PvP.
As I see it, anyone too candy ass to play Perma Death but wants Full Loot is just a pitiful ganker looking for game full of loot pinatas, feel free to try and change my mind.
No.
Perma death means you only get one life.
Full loot means the winner can take everything.
They are different mechanics that have different effects on a large scale.
Well, we shall agree they have different effects on a large scale.
Full Loot Attracts Gankers and PKers who just want to prey upon the other members of the games population for their own gain.
Perma Death attracts people looking for a challenge.
Now ask you one question;
What does Full Loot Offer to a game environment, that Non-Loot cannot provide better, outside promoting murdering people for their loot.
I would say commutability of items and all the political spectra engendered thereby.
Look... have you ever played Dwarf Fortress? One of the great things about it is when you pick something up it's not just handed to you by the game but passed down from generations of previous owners, all of whom may have struggled over it for various reasons.
In a MMORPG this has a very real economic effect, as I hinted at earlier.
But it really does not have this effect.
Think about what others have said, They will all talk about how the gear they lose is easy to replace, in many ways, inconsequential to them, and will extol upon this virtue, or never having anything you are not willing to swiftly lose.
Now Obviously they are PK gankers with the goal to kill other players for loot, and thus outfit disposable gear as they hunt for players will less disposal loot to make the game profitable for them, and, less profitable for others.
But if everyone adopted their approach, just using disposable gear easy to recover gear, dying has no sting beyond dying to a PvP game that has no loot, or even dying to a PvE game, where nothing is lost, thus making the full loot a minor annoyance at best. As for the victor, they simply get loot gen trash that has no market value, so killing has little profit for them as well.
Overall the largest economic effect is that high ticket items have no value given all they provide is a greater loss to the person that has it, and a greater reward for the person that takes it. Which, makes it vastly pointless for anyone to buy.
This means, it lessens all the other aspects of the game that would lead up to those high ticket items.
Before you disagree with me, Again, read what other posters have said about when playing these games, they have easy to replace disposable gear.
Thus it becomes the inherent nature of the game design to devolve into a world of nothing but gankers, as no crafter or builder, or harvester is going to waste time in a game like that, as it is simply not profitable for them.
The only way this gets combated, is with a rise in mega guilds, where large guilds will take control of the higher value resources, protect their crafters and builders, and thus ensure that only they are theirs have access to the strongest and highest ticket items, this becomes a spiral upward, as they gain better gear, items, equipment and work in large teams to protect their own, thus ensure they maintain control and possession of their high ticket items, they build a vast power disparity between them and everyone else, and only other mega guilds can have a chance to rival them, thus everyone needs to be a thrall to a larger guild if they want to have any chance at meaningful progression, independents and small guilds may as well move on to some other game as well.
These systems by design are self defeating to community growth, or player progression.
In short, the Full Loot Mechanic does not add anything to the game that can't be provided better by other means.
I cannot see why people have classified @Ungood as a troll. I think especially here he has made some very valid points and I for one think having him banned has only diminished this discussion. That is not the way to handle differing opinions. I am honestly quite disappointed with the way some of you here bullied and had him removed from this discussion.
I don't support ANYONE getting perma-banned. I think he definitely had some personal issues which I hope he gets straight but the site gives me and everyone a way to handle the interactions with us. I simply added him to my ignore list (first and only member). The best way to handle someone who says ridiculous things is to let them talk so everyone can see
Every time someone leaves the site (voluntary or banned), the community is diminished. Well, except for the guys that pop in to spam links for BabaYaba Mystic spell lines and fake passports...
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
Knowing how to listen to players is not easy. Separating the wheat from the chaff is not easy. My first mmo was UO and I still have flashbacks of being looted. Frankly I think full loot games serve a purpose. It gets investors to piss away their money on developers who don't know how to make a product that makes money, and sustains a substantial amount of players .
Mark Jacobs is one of the few who understand how to have great pvp without upsetting players with a full loot game .
I also think the small fraction of players who want full loot pvp tend to give the impression that their numbers are greater than they really are. They fool investors and developers into chasing an illusion.
I want full loot for the sake of realism vs. artificial barriers. But I also want a Justice System that punishes repeated "crime" and a wide scope of Factions.
I think there's a huge market-in-waiting for a game that doesn't have rampant PKing, but does have freedom and the ability to play it out without artificial barriers.
I want full loot for the sake of realism vs. artificial barriers. But I also want a Justice System that punishes repeated "crime" and a wide scope of Factions.
I think there's a huge market-in-waiting for a game that doesn't have rampant PKing, but does have freedom and the ability to play it out without artificial barriers.
People'll just whine if they are punished for pking and looting people.
I want full loot for the sake of realism vs. artificial barriers. But I also want a Justice System that punishes repeated "crime" and a wide scope of Factions.
I think there's a huge market-in-waiting for a game that doesn't have rampant PKing, but does have freedom and the ability to play it out without artificial barriers.
People'll just whine if they are punished for pking and looting people.
Some would. Tough shjt. If you're going to lose players, lose the ones that will keep that downward spiral going. And all games lose players. The question is how many.
I want full loot for the sake of realism vs. artificial barriers. But I also want a Justice System that punishes repeated "crime" and a wide scope of Factions.
I think there's a huge market-in-waiting for a game that doesn't have rampant PKing, but does have freedom and the ability to play it out without artificial barriers.
See, this is wrong thinking. First you think about common RPG with horizontal progression - the full loot, FFA PvP, OW competition and in fact OW cooperation cannot work in such game. It must be instanced. Then comes the punishment - why? You want to punish the players because the play the game? This is simply stupid. If there is a full loot it should be implemented wise. So in general you need totally different design from the usual themepark game. As in the common case there you play like a squirrel - collecting gear, items, resources, quests, levels. And full loot is equal to permadeath. You have to restart the game.
Knowing how to listen to players is not easy. Separating the wheat from the chaff is not easy. My first mmo was UO and I still have flashbacks of being looted. Frankly I think full loot games serve a purpose. It gets investors to piss away their money on developers who don't know how to make a product that makes money, and sustains a substantial amount of players .
Mark Jacobs is one of the few who understand how to have great pvp without upsetting players with a full loot game .
I also think the small fraction of players who want full loot pvp tend to give the impression that their numbers are greater than they really are. They fool investors and developers into chasing an illusion.
Yes the players who want full loot PVP really do think their numbers are greater than they are. If their numbers were so great why dont private UO servers ever have more than 1K players on them, or games like MO ever work well. PVP full loot games just plain suck and these players dont realize they are not a large enough audience to make money on.
I want full loot for the sake of realism vs. artificial barriers. But I also want a Justice System that punishes repeated "crime" and a wide scope of Factions.
I think there's a huge market-in-waiting for a game that doesn't have rampant PKing, but does have freedom and the ability to play it out without artificial barriers.
See, this is wrong thinking. First you think about common RPG with horizontal progression - the full loot, FFA PvP, OW competition and in fact OW cooperation cannot work in such game. It must be instanced. Then comes the punishment - why? You want to punish the players because the play the game? This is simply stupid. If there is a full loot it should be implemented wise. So in general you need totally different design from the usual themepark game. As in the common case there you play like a squirrel - collecting gear, items, resources, quests, levels. And full loot is equal to permadeath. You have to restart the game.
Well that's exactly right, ikcin. If you have open world PvP, you have to make the game to fit that. It's essential. Themeparks, with their vast power gaps, you just can't have OWPvP.
You misspoke, I think, calling it "horizontal" progression. That's vertical progression in Themepark games, in a very big way. But I get your point.
Knowing how to listen to players is not easy. Separating the wheat from the chaff is not easy. My first mmo was UO and I still have flashbacks of being looted. Frankly I think full loot games serve a purpose. It gets investors to piss away their money on developers who don't know how to make a product that makes money, and sustains a substantial amount of players .
Mark Jacobs is one of the few who understand how to have great pvp without upsetting players with a full loot game .
I also think the small fraction of players who want full loot pvp tend to give the impression that their numbers are greater than they really are. They fool investors and developers into chasing an illusion.
Yes the players who want full loot PVP really do think their numbers are greater than they are. If their numbers were so great why dont private UO servers ever have more than 1K players on them, or games like MO ever work well. PVP full loot games just plain suck and these players dont realize they are not a large enough audience to make money on.
Name one high budget or high quality PVP MMORPG. Sometimes games just suck. I hate that PVP players are supposed to play shit shows just because they are PVP.
PVP online games vastly out number COOP online games.
Knowing how to listen to players is not easy. Separating the wheat from the chaff is not easy. My first mmo was UO and I still have flashbacks of being looted. Frankly I think full loot games serve a purpose. It gets investors to piss away their money on developers who don't know how to make a product that makes money, and sustains a substantial amount of players .
Mark Jacobs is one of the few who understand how to have great pvp without upsetting players with a full loot game .
I also think the small fraction of players who want full loot pvp tend to give the impression that their numbers are greater than they really are. They fool investors and developers into chasing an illusion.
Yes the players who want full loot PVP really do think their numbers are greater than they are. If their numbers were so great why dont private UO servers ever have more than 1K players on them, or games like MO ever work well. PVP full loot games just plain suck and these players dont realize they are not a large enough audience to make money on.
Name one high budget or high quality PVP game. Sometimes games just suck. I hate that PVP players are supposed to play shit shows just because they are PVP.
I'm actually pretty satisfied with the PvP-intensive MMORPG I'm playing. Yes, it's rough around the edges (*cough*UI*cough*) but it really, really nails the PvP in all the ways that matter to me. You don't end up with these huge, level-based power gaps (although taking on a cap ship in a fighter may be a dubious proposition), there are very few "magic barriers", and it is highly sensitive to player skill.
There are thirteen factions, each of which can range in attitude towards you from wanting to kill you on sight to protecting you with their very finest and everything in between. Pretty close to what @Amaranthar is describing, really.
"The simple is the seal of the true and beauty is the splendor of truth" -Subrahmanyan Chandrasekhar Authored 139 missions in VendettaOnline and 6 tracks in Distance
Comments
I read what other people have said about why they enjoy PvP games, and thought about why I play PvP focused games, and it was simple, I play a PvP game because I enjoy the fights. I enjoy the whole thrill of facing and fighting another player, with that said, the more convoluted fuckery that a company puts into the game that pulls away from this, just makes the game worse.
With that pointed out, Battle Royal games, which are basically Full Loot Open World PvP Games that have been refined down to the purest form of this mechanic, makes it so that none of these other Indie games will have any chance to pull in a larger audience, by offering those same mechanics with a bunch of unnecessary bullshit attached.
or play PvP, the other players are more than happy to show you how easy it is to die.
The following is a supply and demand curve diagram. Perhaps you're familiar with the concept.
https://imgur.com/WSKUMYn
Curve on the right is supply, curve on the left is demand. Where they intersect is equilibrium. X axis is quantity, Y axis is price. Let's say some pirates begin interrupting the supply of a given item by looting it from other players (very loosely, this is "Risk"). This will shift the supply curve to the left (decreased quantity):
https://imgur.com/is3Sa3H
As you can see, the new equilibrium is at a higher price. If you were holding a given quantity of a certain item subject to increased risk, that item is now worth more currency. Value has increased. Q.E.D.
This isn't just a theory, of course. I've actually watched it happen.
Circling back around to your argument, "no one has any motive to actually buy theses high ticket items, because someone can just kill them for it and take all their investment away" isn't really true. This is like asking what's the point in living if one day you have to die? The point is, well, to live.
Motivations could be to use the items in such and such a way, or perhaps to sell them according to shifting market currents. Just because there is risk associated with a particular endeavor, that doesn't take away the purpose of the endeavor.
"The simple is the seal of the true and beauty is the splendor of truth" -Subrahmanyan Chandrasekhar
Authored 139 missions in Vendetta Online and 6 tracks in Distance
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
Philosophy of MMO Game Design
Still I think the best implementation either don’t have full loot or just have partial loot so players can have some long term gear progression/collection. The idea you could have long term gear collection (horizontal imo)give long term goals while the risk of loss could be resources.
Some common themes appear.
To answer the OP; They are making them because there is a demand for them. They understand they are niche and have gone the crowdfunding route to secure funding for the most part. The fact that a game like Camelot Unchained or Crowfall got funded proves a market.
The problem is, to date, no one has really done Full Loot PVP right. The games named in this thread are either 10-15 years old, or are still in an Alpha state, or were dismal bad games right out of the gate.
The developers of the new breed of sandbox MMO's have learned a great deal from the lessons of the past, and many of them have had much more hands on access to real data from those older games. Information we simply don't have.
That is why the founding Idea of Crowfall is that the war ends. The lands you fight over are dying, and will soon be gone, while your eternal Crow soul goes on to fight again. Eventually a winning side is declared, the world is destroyed, and you return to your Eternal Kingdom with the contents of your bank (from that one world) if you win, and only some of the contents of your bank if you lose.
I could write an entire page just about Crowfall really. Suffice to say they have solved a good portion of the concerns posted in this thread. Now they just need to get to the point where the game play is sharp and fun and , you know, complete.
Quick bullet points on Crowfall and Loot;
1)There will be many worlds running at once, with different loot rules and different amounts of risk. Most of them not full loot. Some so full loot you can lose your actual body you are flying.
2)You can only enter a world with a small amount of items in your bank, and you can only leave a world with a small amount of items in your bank. Thus, the items made in that world are mostly for use in that world and are soon washed off to history, besides the small amount of (hopefully) good stuff you have stashed to leave the plane.
3) Someone said they wished someone would make Eve into a Fantasy MMO, and that is exactly what Crowfall is. Time based skill advancement? Check. Multiple worlds with differing risk/reward? Check. Fully player run economy outside of a few seed items? Check. Immortal pilot that can take on many forms? Check. Just compare the systems.
Crowfall is Eve where you fly an elf or minotaur or whatever instead of a spaceship.
4) Crowfall will also have different rules per world besides just loot. It is a very complex system to try and explain. Some worlds will be guild vrs guild, some FFA, some godswars, some race wars, and even a random starsign war. The end result is a huge variety of world combinations of risk/reward AND mix of players. You might be playing alongside someone who was your mortal enemy in the previous dying world.
I could go on and on, but I will stop by saying you should at least check out what they are trying to do, because if they can pull it off with their random world generator and massive variety, it's going to be a very fun game.
Camelot Unchained on the other hand has its own hook, giant battles. That hasn't been done well yet either. I'm not as up to date on this game, but I am keeping an eye on it.
If they manage to provide a stable mass battle game, that is fun to play, players will show up.
Even if it is niche.
I'm currently playing a little Legends of Aria here and there. Haven't been killed yet. Wouldn't matter if I was. I already have literally Dozens of armor and weapon sets for my fighter. The game needs more time in the oven though. They are trying to finish the map, but they really need a polish pass on all of the skill and systems. All in good time I guess.
One final parting note...
If you ever played full loot PVP game and you got ganked, then you went back ALONE to get your stuff back, YOU ARE DOING IT WRONG. LOL.
( Note to self-Don't say anything bad about Drizzt.)
An acerbic sense of humor is NOT allowed here.
The inability to log out does an amazing job at reigning in "roleplay-less" combat (gains nothing in the form of land/security/politics).
The fact that making attack units uses the same energy resources as your economy units or for other investments, means that you can run the numbers of picking on a newbie and realize you come out behind.
Defenders have nice advantages meaning equal level combat turns into siege combat (meaning both sides get time to make plays) . And unequal combat turns into the above. Likewise a skilled weaker colony can disrupt high level economic strategies and force expensive standing forces, or find third parties that want to abuse misappropriated spending.
Players also get limited access to the ability to just say no to an attack. Though in some cases it will just delay it a day or two. It's also worth mentioning that it's not skill less, and that there is counter play in baiting out protection mode at the wrong time, the wrong place, or even to disrupt a third party.
It even has immensely skillful play and an amazing skill curve.
To a real FFA PvP this game should be like crack. Especially if they believe a FFA game should support multiple play styles like PvE, exploration, and similar.
Practice doesn't make perfect, practice makes permanent.
"At one point technology meant making tech that could get to the moon, now it means making tech that could get you a taxi."
( Note to self-Don't say anything bad about Drizzt.)
An acerbic sense of humor is NOT allowed here.
Every time someone leaves the site (voluntary or banned), the community is diminished. Well, except for the guys that pop in to spam links for BabaYaba Mystic spell lines and fake passports...
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
But I also want a Justice System that punishes repeated "crime" and a wide scope of Factions.
I think there's a huge market-in-waiting for a game that doesn't have rampant PKing, but does have freedom and the ability to play it out without artificial barriers.
Once upon a time....
And all games lose players. The question is how many.
Once upon a time....
Punishments in games is not unheard of.
If you have open world PvP, you have to make the game to fit that. It's essential.
Themeparks, with their vast power gaps, you just can't have OWPvP.
You misspoke, I think, calling it "horizontal" progression. That's vertical progression in Themepark games, in a very big way. But I get your point.
Once upon a time....
PVP online games vastly out number COOP online games.
There are thirteen factions, each of which can range in attitude towards you from wanting to kill you on sight to protecting you with their very finest and everything in between. Pretty close to what @Amaranthar is describing, really.
"The simple is the seal of the true and beauty is the splendor of truth" -Subrahmanyan Chandrasekhar
Authored 139 missions in Vendetta Online and 6 tracks in Distance