The only exception is EVE Online. Which has most of the 2nd part of quality content. Also the only exception that is successful as far as full loot pvp mmos go...funny that
I think wiki says Eve start out by raising 2.6 million. So I don't think it's initial budget is big. They most likely spend more money later.
Games like daoc or everquest also have low initial budget too. But that is almost 20 years ago.
if i would make a full loot pvp mmorpg, i woudn't make ffa
if i would make it ffa, i would at least make a "punishing" alignment system something like: evil characters can't cast healing spells etc the rp aspect of it would be that divinities that grant healing spells to their worshippers only answer to the prayers of good character or something like that but evil players would have some other spells that good characters could not cast
anyway: not being able to cast healing spells might make it impossible for players to complete the most difficult tiers of the game, but for them to get these items would be through pc trade and pvp loot not through pve or npc interaction
also: some of the high tier items might have alignment requirements also: i would give good aligned socities civilization buffs
now that i think about it: even if all these mechanics would be in place, i would still make safe zones... and the game would still be ffa outside those safe zones...
Talking about games where thousands of players exist simultaneously in a single instance and mechanics related to such games.
I can't speak to the Classic servers. But I know that back in the actual Chronicles, etc.. circa 2004, when I played L2 religiously, Karma absolutely did affect players' behavior. Players were *real* careful about going red if their PK count was high. They'd often take the Sin Eater quest and go off to some remote corner to wash off some of the Karma and erase the PKs, hoping not to be found.
Of course, there were so-called "perma-reds" whom couldn't have cared less about karma. They weren't concerned about that. They were just out to ruin someone else's day, just because they could, reputation be damned. Sociopaths, you might say. Welcome to literally any MMO, in that case - PvE or PvP. That type will always find ways to grief other players regardless of the game. I've seen it in every MMO I've ever played; far too many to count (or admit for that matter lol), at this point.
But for most people, who did care about not having their own progression negatively affected, and didn't want to spend too much time with a gremlin sucking up all their xp, Karma was a pretty good deterrent. Didn't stop people from going Red, but it was enough for them to take it seriously and not go overboard. No one would have ever gotten anything accomplished if it was just a Wild West of people running around ganking each other non-stop.
Yes, they did, as they drop items. And it was highly abused - as to provoke some spoiler to PK you 4 times and then to take his materials. But it was relatively easy to clean the PK points and the karma. If it was hard to clean the PK points, then the OW PvP would not exist in L2. Also the perma-reds - that depends on the social structure of the server. In highly populated private servers with constant number of players it was simply impossible. And it was not the karma or even the PK points, what made the players to avoid the PK. It was the clan system. Karma was mainly RP. Some additional drama.
You never played L2 on official servers then. everything you are trying to say here is 100% bullshit. Private servers are one thing, the Official servers were very different. On the official servers, you could not just easily grind out new weapons like the 1000% drop rate on private servers.
I played in 2004 and after months of grinding mats to finally create my dual swords, I went red and lost them the same day. It was one of my most crushing memories from L2. We had perma reds but even OW PVP was taken seriously between clans as you could face some very serious setbacks.
Yes there were exploiters and all that as well, but L2 back then was very high risk for very little chance of a reward.
I think you have some insight there; however, I'm left wondering with horizonal progression only what would motivate a player to do that?
I don't think MMORPGs are broken (some innovation would be nice) and some people like spending a great deal of time in game working on characters. Not as many people have the time for that as for Battlefield, which is okay - but those games do need to take progression into consideration when designing PvP.
Checkers just doesn't do it for me, even if full on equal PvP. Some people want more. (or different)
PVP doesn't need to be completely equal, that gets stale IMO, but it shouldn't be a blow out like most MMO's make it. If you're level 50 against a 55 in most games you are almost instantly dead. In Eve or Darkfall however, the story is different. You can spend a short period of time developing a starter character and actually make a difference in a fight. Sometimes win 1v1's as well.
ikcin said: What is the most played game now? Fortnite - it has permadeath and full loot. In general FPS were always much more popular than WoW ever been. What is the main difference between MMORPG and mobas or battle royale games? Can you answer?
---------------------------
No problem as the answer is PvP + Substantial Progression.
In WOW a Level 1 character doesn't have a shot in a million of taking out a Level 70, but I'm guessing a brand new player in Fortnite has a chance of killing a veteran in that game. (1) If incapable of beating the player, the new player at least has a way to make a substantial contribution to a win. Am I wrong about that?
Gamers are HUGE fans of PvP across the board when that PvP is balanced; however, they really hate it when some untouchable god-like being can roast them in one shot as they try to gather enough materials to put together a first suit of 'tattered cloth armor'.
Full loot/permadeath in a game like Fortnite is altogether different than in a game like WOW where you might be wearing armor that took you literally months of work to earn.
If you think full PvP in Battle Royale translates well to progression based MMORPGs you'd be wrong as the market has proven so very many times.
That would be your answer.
People love equal PvP. People hate unequal PvP.
*mic drop*
NOTES ---------------------------------------------------------------- 1: I'm only guessing here as I've not played Fortnite.
The answer is the time. Take LoL - it is a game with vertical progression, quests, raids, grind, gear progression, sieges, and PvP. Also even kind of immortality, as the characters and the mobs respawn. It has literally everything you could find in a generic MMORPG, but compressed in less than an hour game. And there is not conflict between the PvP and the PvE. But even in LoL you will get disadvantage if you log off, so if you do not play part of the time of the game. See, this is actually the problem. That in the most MMORPGs the progression is time based. And the players who pay to save time, or play more, get big advantage. Then the other players do not have chance to compete. And the new players start with big disadvantage. So in the game does not win the better player, but the player who have more free time or money to waste.
Also PvP is never equal, if it was the only result from any competition will be tie. But it should be, or at least players should believe, that the PvP is fair. That does not mean equal gear, levels, weapons. That means equal rules for the win. Obviously when the rules give advantage to the player who pays/plays more, the competition is not fair. And the easiest solution is to separate the time based solo progression and the competition - instanced game.
The sophisticated solution is to implement horizontal progression, which gives to the players more options instead more power, so to keep the open world.
And also to implement the competition and the cooperation among the players in the character progression.
I think you have some insight there; however, I'm left wondering with horizonal progression only what would motivate a player to do that?
I don't think MMORPGs are broken (some innovation would be nice) and some people like spending a great deal of time in game working on characters. Not as many people have the time for that as for Battlefield, which is okay - but those games do need to take progression into consideration when designing PvP.
Checkers just doesn't do it for me, even if full on equal PvP. Some people want more. (or different)
If that buffoon had insight into anything I would be surprised.
However, you did hit on something I miss in MMO's. Teams. I know the Trinity is the current model, but I really enjoyed (thinking of L2 here) how we had buffers, CC, DD (varying flavors), Tanks and heals. I know other games have done this and it is no longer a popular concept. I miss that a lot. Not all of the older ideas were bad, I think they just need to be realized in different ways.
Having said that, I am not a huge fan of Archetypes, class locking, etc. I feel if you pick up an ax and start using it, you will eventually learn the best way to use it or master it. Someone said it a while ago, and I 100% agree. There should not be quest hubs around. I feel you should wonder the world, and as you discover things, like rare hidden books of knowledge (as one example) you can learn the skill or spell that was hidden.
One feature I would like to see also is no "world or trade chat". You can only chat with people you "know" in game. In other words, you would have to be in close proximity and share some item spell or whatever that allows you to keep you in touch. You would have to seek out and find merchants and hope they were still alive.
I am a fan of (the idea of) PvE permadeath as well like SWG Jedi had for a while. Three deaths and you are gone. I realize this is a wildly unpopular opinion.
I realize this is not a popular opinion, and that no matter how expansive the map, in a matter of hours after release (or likely before release) there will be full maps of where to go to do what.
Also, bring back a monthly sub fee's and get rid of cash shops in any way shape or form. I sued to think cosmetic was ok, but to hell with that also. Let crafters make fancy clothes/costumes (as an example) to sell to people.
If you want a new idea, go read an old book.
In order to be insulted, I must first value your opinion.
If you have PvP in an RPG, and it's a fair fight, then two people are in a FUBAR situation.
In general this is true even for PvE. Anyone adequately playing a role, will not often put themselves in 50/50 situations. Or at least live long to brag about all of them.
Practice doesn't make perfect, practice makes permanent.
"At one point technology meant making tech that could get to the moon, now it means making tech that could get you a taxi."
If you have PvP in an RPG, and it's a fair fight, then two people are in a FUBAR situation.
In general this is true even for PvE. Anyone adequately playing a role, will not often put themselves in 50/50 situations. Or at least live long to brag about all of them.
That is why the game should give fair chances, with fair rules. This is a fair game. In the fights, or any competition there are winners and losers, there is not equality. In a well designed games the reason to PvE is the PvP, and the reason to PvP is the PvE - this is a good open world design. And it makes the players to RP and gives them better immersion.
You do no conquer a castle to have a castle achievement. You conquer a castle because it will give you territory control, so taxes, control over the trade, access to resources. And you do not need these things just to improve your character, you need them to defend and to keep conquering. A good OW design.
What is stopping max level gankers from camping your level 1 character without safe zone, no alighnment system, and no faction.
If you have PvP in an RPG, and it's a fair fight, then two people are in a FUBAR situation.
In general this is true even for PvE. Anyone adequately playing a role, will not often put themselves in 50/50 situations. Or at least live long to brag about all of them.
That is why the game should give fair chances, with fair rules. This is a fair game. In the fights, or any competition there are winners and losers, there is not equality. In a well designed games the reason to PvE is the PvP, and the reason to PvP is the PvE - this is a good open world design. And it makes the players to RP and gives them better immersion.
You do no conquer a castle to have a castle achievement. You conquer a castle because it will give you territory control, so taxes, control over the trade, access to resources. And you do not need these things just to improve your character, you need them to defend and to keep conquering. A good OW design.
What is stopping max level gankers from camping your level 1 character without safe zone, no alighnment system, and no faction.
Again - horizontal progression. Maybe with zones with different risk/reward. Obviously in the newbie zones the rewards will be smaller. So the developer could adjust the risk, with guards, like in EVE - not 100% safety, but safer.
Also, why? Why do you think some players gank noobs in a game? Often there are such - gankers, but they are few, and in the most cases they are bored. So give them a good game and you will have less of them, so few they will not matter.
Lol, what planet you from. Why do you think people dont' gank noobs. And what FFA full loot mmorpg dont' have any safespace, alignment or faction. Even with all that people still gank noobs, why do you think people don't?
You need some mechanism to prevent things becoming gank fest. Maybe a robust guild system will do too.
People willing to gank noobs don’t care about loot. It doesn’t work. Too many variables would need to be on place all the time for pure ffa pvp to be successful and it will never happen.
If you have PvP in an RPG, and it's a fair fight, then two people are in a FUBAR situation.
In general this is true even for PvE. Anyone adequately playing a role, will not often put themselves in 50/50 situations. Or at least live long to brag about all of them.
That is why the game should give fair chances, with fair rules. This is a fair game. In the fights, or any competition there are winners and losers, there is not equality. In a well designed games the reason to PvE is the PvP, and the reason to PvP is the PvE - this is a good open world design. And it makes the players to RP and gives them better immersion.
You do no conquer a castle to have a castle achievement. You conquer a castle because it will give you territory control, so taxes, control over the trade, access to resources. And you do not need these things just to improve your character, you need them to defend and to keep conquering. A good OW design.
What is stopping max level gankers from camping your level 1 character without safe zone, no alighnment system, and no faction.
Again - horizontal progression. Maybe with zones with different risk/reward. Obviously in the newbie zones the rewards will be smaller. So the developer could adjust the risk, with guards, like in EVE - not 100% safety, but safer.
Also, why? Why do you think some players gank noobs in a game? Often there are such - gankers, but they are few, and in the most cases they are bored. So give them a good game and you will have less of them, so few they will not matter.
Lol, what planet you from. Why do you think people dont' gank noobs. And what FFA full loot mmorpg dont' have any safespace, alignment or faction. Even with all that people still gank noobs, why do you think people don't?
You need some mechanism to prevent things becoming gank fest. Maybe a robust guild system will do too.
I asked you why do you think players gank noobs?
I never say people do not gank noobs - as that will be nonsense - what people, in what game? Again what is that full loot FFA game with safe spaces? As if the game has such, obviously it is not FFA. Also I'm not sure what do you mean by alignment. Again - what are all that people, and what is that gank fest? Seriously you sound like Trump - big words, without any meaning.
If you do not have levels, how the max levels will gank? I never played a game that could be called a gank fest. Obviously it would be a very bad game.
OK, maybe not even Trump. Like NRA advertisement - you must buy a gun, as the world outside is too dangerous, you need a gun! Amazingly how all these noobs without guns could survive.
Have you played a full loot mmorpg game before? I'm mostly a themepark player myself. I really just play full loot mmorpg now because most of them lack content so I can play casually.
Can you even name me a game which don't have safe space, alignment, or faction?
Read wiki on mortal online, darkfall on what alignment is. You can also google Ultima Online or Legend of aria on it.
ikcin said: What is the most played game now? Fortnite - it has permadeath and full loot. In general FPS were always much more popular than WoW ever been. What is the main difference between MMORPG and mobas or battle royale games? Can you answer?
---------------------------
No problem as the answer is PvP + Substantial Progression.
In WOW a Level 1 character doesn't have a shot in a million of taking out a Level 70, but I'm guessing a brand new player in Fortnite has a chance of killing a veteran in that game. (1) If incapable of beating the player, the new player at least has a way to make a substantial contribution to a win. Am I wrong about that?
Gamers are HUGE fans of PvP across the board when that PvP is balanced; however, they really hate it when some untouchable god-like being can roast them in one shot as they try to gather enough materials to put together a first suit of 'tattered cloth armor'.
Full loot/permadeath in a game like Fortnite is altogether different than in a game like WOW where you might be wearing armor that took you literally months of work to earn.
If you think full PvP in Battle Royale translates well to progression based MMORPGs you'd be wrong as the market has proven so very many times.
That would be your answer.
People love equal PvP. People hate unequal PvP.
*mic drop*
NOTES ---------------------------------------------------------------- 1: I'm only guessing here as I've not played Fortnite.
The answer is the time. Take LoL - it is a game with vertical progression, quests, raids, grind, gear progression, sieges, and PvP. Also even kind of immortality, as the characters and the mobs respawn. It has literally everything you could find in a generic MMORPG, but compressed in less than an hour game. And there is not conflict between the PvP and the PvE. But even in LoL you will get disadvantage if you log off, so if you do not play part of the time of the game. See, this is actually the problem. That in the most MMORPGs the progression is time based. And the players who pay to save time, or play more, get big advantage. Then the other players do not have chance to compete. And the new players start with big disadvantage. So in the game does not win the better player, but the player who have more free time or money to waste.
Also PvP is never equal, if it was the only result from any competition will be tie. But it should be, or at least players should believe, that the PvP is fair. That does not mean equal gear, levels, weapons. That means equal rules for the win. Obviously when the rules give advantage to the player who pays/plays more, the competition is not fair. And the easiest solution is to separate the time based solo progression and the competition - instanced game.
The sophisticated solution is to implement horizontal progression, which gives to the players more options instead more power, so to keep the open world.
And also to implement the competition and the cooperation among the players in the character progression.
I think you have some insight there; however, I'm left wondering with horizonal progression only what would motivate a player to do that?
I don't think MMORPGs are broken (some innovation would be nice) and some people like spending a great deal of time in game working on characters. Not as many people have the time for that as for Battlefield, which is okay - but those games do need to take progression into consideration when designing PvP.
Checkers just doesn't do it for me, even if full on equal PvP. Some people want more. (or different)
Horizontal progression is vertical progression but shallow. You become more powerful like you do in real life. You gain new skills and ability but you don't suddenly take 100 stabs to die vs. 3. You don't become untouchable to someone because you level gives you a power platform.
The only advantage to vertical progression is numbers and one shotting lower level mobs. Some people like numbers. You sacrifice the ability to play how and where you want. You have "unrealistic" game world where suddenly your all powerful world hero next expansion can be killed by a regular wolf. You sacrifice the game world where 99% of it becomes irrelevant.
Horizontal progression is vertical progression but shallow. You become more powerful like you do in real life. You gain new skills and ability but you don't suddenly take 100 stabs to die vs. 3. You don't become untouchable to someone because you level gives you a power platform.
Obviously you know what is horizontal progression. Then, WTF you say it is vertical, but shallow? As it is obviously not. Instead more power you get more choices. And this could give you significant advantage in certain situations - depends on you, on the choices you make.
The only advantage to vertical progression is numbers and one shotting lower level mobs. Some people like numbers. You sacrifice the ability to play how and where you want. You have "unrealistic" game world where suddenly your all powerful world hero next expansion can be killed by a regular wolf. You sacrifice the game world where 99% of it becomes irrelevant.
And that makes no sense. Also we are talking about MMOs. Your idea for the next expansion is... Let say all the so called MMORPGs you played, and probably all, are crap. As the evolution of the genre stopped with WoW - themepark, EVE - sandbox, and Lineage 2 - sandpark. Since then nothing really new happened. That is why I do not talk about certain games, but about rules, features, mechanisms. As to talk about the MMORPGs now is a waste of time.
Horizontal progression is really shallow vertical progression. You may not level up but gear, abilities and etc certainly make you more powerful. Thus there is some vertical progression. Saying shallow vertical progression just ends the argument that you are gaining power and there is no such thing as horizontal progression.
No clue what you are talking about. Mentioned no games and what I said could apply to most vertical progression MMORPG. I just said that vertical progression tends to have many set backs and very little positive except gaining numbers and one shotting lower levels. People like those but the cost is some of what I mentioned.
All you have done is try to sound like some expert on what and what isn't a MMORPG. Yet you basically telling people like me who is talking about the genre in general to be more general while you talk about specifics of your own imaginary MMORPG standards. I am not sure if that irony is recognized or not.
Have you played a full loot mmorpg game before? I'm mostly a themepark player myself. I really just play full loot mmorpg now because most of them lack content so I can play casually.
Can you even name me a game which don't have safe space, alignment, or faction?
Read wiki on mortal online, darkfall on what alignment is. You can also google Ultima Online or Legend of aria on it.
I played EVE. Tried Mortal and Darkfall, but did not like the combat, the RPG, the graphics. There are many good ideas in these games. But the implementation is poorly made. Alignment is just RP. But in general it is screwed in the most games. PK should not be related with alignment.
What is the PK? A player attacks another player, who does not or can not retaliate, and the first one wins the combat simulation. There are two sides - the attacker and the defender. So, why the attacker attacks? Why the defender does not defend? And in the last case - if the defender cannot retaliate because of a power gap, that is just a bad game design.
You just state the problem without the solution. Unless you are making a newly created character exact the same power with people play a long time. There will be power gap.
Even in horizontal progression game. There will be level/skill increase phase which take time to reach max level/skill. Not to mention, not everyone is build for pvp. Some people build their character to max their potential for pve or crafting.
I think you said fight in Lineage 2 is rarely fair. That is what people say, in this type of game almost all fight isn't fair.
And like I said, every single of these type of game have some system to prevent everyone from ganking everyone. I didn't play much full loot game, but I don't think there are any games which is a FFA without any restricted area, justice system, or faction.
Horizontal progression is really shallow vertical progression. You may not level up but gear, abilities and etc certainly make you more powerful. Thus there is some vertical progression. Saying shallow vertical progression just ends the argument that you are gaining power and there is no such thing as horizontal progression.
No clue what you are talking about. Mentioned no games and what I said could apply to most vertical progression MMORPG. I just said that vertical progression tends to have many set backs and very little positive except gaining numbers and one shotting lower levels. People like those but the cost is some of what I mentioned.
All you have done is try to sound like some expert on what and what isn't a MMORPG. Yet you basically telling people like me who is talking about the genre in general to be more general while you talk about specifics of your own imaginary MMORPG standards. I am not sure if that irony is recognized or not.
Seems you know how it works, but you do not understand it. You may have even levels, as level is just a word. More options do not make you more powerful. Take LoL, as it seems in this forum the abstract thinking is not popular and everything shall be expressed with examples. So in LoL you could be extremely good with one hero, or to have 100 different heroes - when are you more powerful? Also there you combine the hero, with your choices for gear, runes, and additional skills. Some combinations are definitely better in certain situations. For example in the jungle you may have several very good combinations for one hero, that are completely useless if you play on the top. Horizontal progression gives you choices instead power. So it allows skill based, tactical and strategical play. While the vertical progression is easier to implement, also it is very good for a solo RPG. But for a MMO game it is terrible. It limits and in fact often makes impossible the cooperation and the competition among the players.
Obviously you do not talk about the genre in general. So better point that game where you think the progression is horizontal.
There you go talking about a specific game. You gripe when others use other games and you’re not even talking about a mmorpg. Just stop.
Horizontal progression is really shallow vertical progression. You may not level up but gear, abilities and etc certainly make you more powerful. Thus there is some vertical progression. Saying shallow vertical progression just ends the argument that you are gaining power and there is no such thing as horizontal progression.
No clue what you are talking about. Mentioned no games and what I said could apply to most vertical progression MMORPG. I just said that vertical progression tends to have many set backs and very little positive except gaining numbers and one shotting lower levels. People like those but the cost is some of what I mentioned.
All you have done is try to sound like some expert on what and what isn't a MMORPG. Yet you basically telling people like me who is talking about the genre in general to be more general while you talk about specifics of your own imaginary MMORPG standards. I am not sure if that irony is recognized or not.
Seems you know how it works, but you do not understand it. You may have even levels, as level is just a word. More options do not make you more powerful. Take LoL, as it seems in this forum the abstract thinking is not popular and everything shall be expressed with examples. So in LoL you could be extremely good with one hero, or to have 100 different heroes - when are you more powerful? Also there you combine the hero, with your choices for gear, runes, and additional skills. Some combinations are definitely better in certain situations. For example in the jungle you may have several very good combinations for one hero, that are completely useless if you play on the top. Horizontal progression gives you choices instead power. So it allows skill based, tactical and strategical play. While the vertical progression is easier to implement, also it is very good for a solo RPG. But for a MMO game it is terrible. It limits and in fact often makes impossible the cooperation and the competition among the players.
Obviously you do not talk about the genre in general. So better point that game where you think the progression is horizontal.
There you go talking about a specific game. You gripe when others use other games and you’re not even talking about a mmorpg. Just stop.
I do, as nobody here talks about the games in general. In the best case the people make some generalizations from the subjective experience in the games they have played. And in fact this is even worse than pointing a certain game. The result are such conclusions like - horizontal progression is a shallow vertical progression, which is simply wrong.
The problem is your imaginary game dont' exist. You just keep saying if it don't work properly it is a failed design. And everything will work together without implement any rules in these type of game.
Horizontal progression is really shallow vertical progression. You may not level up but gear, abilities and etc certainly make you more powerful. Thus there is some vertical progression. Saying shallow vertical progression just ends the argument that you are gaining power and there is no such thing as horizontal progression.
No clue what you are talking about. Mentioned no games and what I said could apply to most vertical progression MMORPG. I just said that vertical progression tends to have many set backs and very little positive except gaining numbers and one shotting lower levels. People like those but the cost is some of what I mentioned.
All you have done is try to sound like some expert on what and what isn't a MMORPG. Yet you basically telling people like me who is talking about the genre in general to be more general while you talk about specifics of your own imaginary MMORPG standards. I am not sure if that irony is recognized or not.
Seems you know how it works, but you do not understand it. You may have even levels, as level is just a word. More options do not make you more powerful. Take LoL, as it seems in this forum the abstract thinking is not popular and everything shall be expressed with examples. So in LoL you could be extremely good with one hero, or to have 100 different heroes - when are you more powerful? Also there you combine the hero, with your choices for gear, runes, and additional skills. Some combinations are definitely better in certain situations. For example in the jungle you may have several very good combinations for one hero, that are completely useless if you play on the top. Horizontal progression gives you choices instead power. So it allows skill based, tactical and strategical play. While the vertical progression is easier to implement, also it is very good for a solo RPG. But for a MMO game it is terrible. It limits and in fact often makes impossible the cooperation and the competition among the players.
Obviously you do not talk about the genre in general. So better point that game where you think the progression is horizontal.
There you go talking about a specific game. You gripe when others use other games and you’re not even talking about a mmorpg. Just stop.
I do, as nobody here talks about the games in general. In the best case the people make some generalizations from the subjective experience in the games they have played. And in fact this is even worse than pointing a certain game. The result are such conclusions like - horizontal progression is a shallow vertical progression, which is simply wrong.
The problem is your imaginary game dont' exist. You just keep saying if it don't work properly it is a failed design. And everything will work together without implement any rules in these type of game.
What I really can't understand is why you guys keep giving this fool breath? It's not a debate nor even a discussion, it's an arrogant ass that changes the rules to fit his flawed point of view that also tries to present his opinions as facts. Quit wasting your time. Or don't, I guess beating your head against a wall can be fun if you are bored enough. Just saying.
If you want a new idea, go read an old book.
In order to be insulted, I must first value your opinion.
Not sure if this has been said in this thread yet, but Albion Online is going Free to Play on April 10th. It is a full loot PvP game that is actually doing well.
Comments
Games like daoc or everquest also have low initial budget too. But that is almost 20 years ago.
if i would make it ffa, i would at least make a "punishing" alignment system
something like: evil characters can't cast healing spells etc
the rp aspect of it would be that divinities that grant healing spells to their worshippers only answer to the prayers of good character or something like that
but evil players would have some other spells that good characters could not cast
anyway: not being able to cast healing spells might make it impossible for players to complete the most difficult tiers of the game, but for them to get these items would be through pc trade and pvp loot not through pve or npc interaction
also: some of the high tier items might have alignment requirements
also: i would give good aligned socities civilization buffs
now that i think about it: even if all these mechanics would be in place, i would still make safe zones... and the game would still be ffa outside those safe zones...
I played in 2004 and after months of grinding mats to finally create my dual swords, I went red and lost them the same day. It was one of my most crushing memories from L2. We had perma reds but even OW PVP was taken seriously between clans as you could face some very serious setbacks.
Yes there were exploiters and all that as well, but L2 back then was very high risk for very little chance of a reward.
Anyway, @QuarterStack is correct.
If you want a new idea, go read an old book.
In order to be insulted, I must first value your opinion.
However, you did hit on something I miss in MMO's. Teams. I know the Trinity is the current model, but I really enjoyed (thinking of L2 here) how we had buffers, CC, DD (varying flavors), Tanks and heals. I know other games have done this and it is no longer a popular concept. I miss that a lot. Not all of the older ideas were bad, I think they just need to be realized in different ways.
Having said that, I am not a huge fan of Archetypes, class locking, etc. I feel if you pick up an ax and start using it, you will eventually learn the best way to use it or master it. Someone said it a while ago, and I 100% agree. There should not be quest hubs around. I feel you should wonder the world, and as you discover things, like rare hidden books of knowledge (as one example) you can learn the skill or spell that was hidden.
One feature I would like to see also is no "world or trade chat". You can only chat with people you "know" in game. In other words, you would have to be in close proximity and share some item spell or whatever that allows you to keep you in touch. You would have to seek out and find merchants and hope they were still alive.
I am a fan of (the idea of) PvE permadeath as well like SWG Jedi had for a while. Three deaths and you are gone. I realize this is a wildly unpopular opinion.
I realize this is not a popular opinion, and that no matter how expansive the map, in a matter of hours after release (or likely before release) there will be full maps of where to go to do what.
Also, bring back a monthly sub fee's and get rid of cash shops in any way shape or form. I sued to think cosmetic was ok, but to hell with that also. Let crafters make fancy clothes/costumes (as an example) to sell to people.
If you want a new idea, go read an old book.
In order to be insulted, I must first value your opinion.
In general this is true even for PvE. Anyone adequately playing a role, will not often put themselves in 50/50 situations. Or at least live long to brag about all of them.
Practice doesn't make perfect, practice makes permanent.
"At one point technology meant making tech that could get to the moon, now it means making tech that could get you a taxi."
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
You need some mechanism to prevent things becoming gank fest. Maybe a robust guild system will do too.
Can you even name me a game which don't have safe space, alignment, or faction?
Read wiki on mortal online, darkfall on what alignment is. You can also google Ultima Online or Legend of aria on it.
The only advantage to vertical progression is numbers and one shotting lower level mobs. Some people like numbers. You sacrifice the ability to play how and where you want. You have "unrealistic" game world where suddenly your all powerful world hero next expansion can be killed by a regular wolf. You sacrifice the game world where 99% of it becomes irrelevant.
No clue what you are talking about. Mentioned no games and what I said could apply to most vertical progression MMORPG. I just said that vertical progression tends to have many set backs and very little positive except gaining numbers and one shotting lower levels. People like those but the cost is some of what I mentioned.
All you have done is try to sound like some expert on what and what isn't a MMORPG. Yet you basically telling people like me who is talking about the genre in general to be more general while you talk about specifics of your own imaginary MMORPG standards. I am not sure if that irony is recognized or not.
Even in horizontal progression game. There will be level/skill increase phase which take time to reach max level/skill. Not to mention, not everyone is build for pvp. Some people build their character to max their potential for pve or crafting.
I think you said fight in Lineage 2 is rarely fair. That is what people say, in this type of game almost all fight isn't fair.
And like I said, every single of these type of game have some system to prevent everyone from ganking everyone. I didn't play much full loot game, but I don't think there are any games which is a FFA without any restricted area, justice system, or faction.
If you want a new idea, go read an old book.
In order to be insulted, I must first value your opinion.