PVP is the most popular form of online play... by far !
Just not in MMORPG's...
Attempts at making virtual worlds always fail, because some players like to control their risk (PVE), which means they'll avoid games where that's not possible (non-consensual PVP).
You'll never have a game that makes all players happy.
I am still hoping someone can name a single server, PvP, full-loot, perma-death, persistent world, crafting, character building, base building MMO with a justice system and inheritance system.
You know, a game that the OP says nobody does right. Also a game that has all the things that others say is missing in PvP games.
I am asking because Haven and Hearth and Salem are the only games that I know that seems to have everything that others say is missing in a properly done PvP game.
Are there any other games like them? I have developed 30 characters in Salem over the last 5 years. I can play them separately or simultaneously, working together as a group or as individual adventurers, and any of them can join any other players, groups or towns. Some get killed and then their possessions, if any, can be inherited or left to be salvaged by others in the 5 year old single server persistent world.
So, please, can anyone tell me that there are other games like that?
And everyone still don’t know what your point is. Advertising said games?
. . . never works. Ever. No Justice system in any game creates any kind of parity between PvE players and PvPers. Never has, never will.
There is never any JUSTICE for the PvE player. He never gets his stuff back, never gets any satisfaction for having been PK'd, camped, ganked or griefed. There are only penalties for the PKer, none of which create a deterrent and many of which are actually an encouragement and fervently sought after.
So long as PvE is used as a lure to create a "target rich environment" for PvPers, who are the real players for whom the game is made, there is never going to be a successful full-loot PvP game.
. . . never works. Ever. No Justice system in any game creates any kind of parity between PvE players and PvPers. Never has, never will.
There is never any JUSTICE for the PvE player. He never gets his stuff back, never gets any satisfaction for having been PK'd, camped, ganked or griefed. There are only penalties for the PKer, none of which create a deterrent and many of which are actually an encouragement and fervently sought after.
So long as PvE is used as a lure to create a "target rich environment" for PvPers, who are the real players for whom the game is made, there is never going to be a successful full-loot PvP game.
There is no solution.
No one has ever done a Justice System right. Ever. They always leave "outs" for the PKers. The one I love to point at the most is "prison." And it turns out to have "escape", which is just more game play for the PKer and doesn't do a thing as a deterrent.
I've offered ideas for Justice Systems that truly affect the PKers. I just offered an idea above, in the post you are quoting from I believe, that would definitely affect the PKers. And would cripple their characters if they do it too much. Which would definitely reduce PKing drastically. And what do I get? Ignoring the offer and a drive-by "never worked before", even though it's never been done before.
PVP is the most popular form of online play... by far !
Just not in MMORPG's...
Attempts at making virtual worlds always fail, because some players like to control their risk (PVE), which means they'll avoid games where that's not possible (non-consensual PVP).
Just MMORPG players really. I think the character and time investing also adds to this. The power gap, powerlessness and general unfairness adds to it as well.
. . . never works. Ever. No Justice system in any game creates any kind of parity between PvE players and PvPers. Never has, never will.
There is never any JUSTICE for the PvE player. He never gets his stuff back, never gets any satisfaction for having been PK'd, camped, ganked or griefed. There are only penalties for the PKer, none of which create a deterrent and many of which are actually an encouragement and fervently sought after.
So long as PvE is used as a lure to create a "target rich environment" for PvPers, who are the real players for whom the game is made, there is never going to be a successful full-loot PvP game.
There is no solution.
No one has ever done a Justice System right. Ever. They always leave "outs" for the PKers. The one I love to point at the most is "prison." And it turns out to have "escape", which is just more game play for the PKer and doesn't do a thing as a deterrent.
I've offered ideas for Justice Systems that truly affect the PKers. I just offered an idea above, in the post you are quoting from I believe, that would definitely affect the PKers. And would cripple their characters if they do it too much. Which would definitely reduce PKing drastically. And what do I get? Ignoring the offer and a drive-by "never worked before", even though it's never been done before.
Justice system that works should culminate with an IP ban for the greifers and gankers. And more.
Your contention that your system of justice would work where all else have failed, is the same coda we hear from all of these game devs.
My system of justice is to never give these games my money. Pretty much the same for almost everyone in my gaming circle.
If you are holding out for the perfect game, the only game you play will be the waiting one.
. . . never works. Ever. No Justice system in any game creates any kind of parity between PvE players and PvPers. Never has, never will.
There is never any JUSTICE for the PvE player. He never gets his stuff back, never gets any satisfaction for having been PK'd, camped, ganked or griefed. There are only penalties for the PKer, none of which create a deterrent and many of which are actually an encouragement and fervently sought after.
So long as PvE is used as a lure to create a "target rich environment" for PvPers, who are the real players for whom the game is made, there is never going to be a successful full-loot PvP game.
There is no solution.
No one has ever done a Justice System right. Ever. They always leave "outs" for the PKers. The one I love to point at the most is "prison." And it turns out to have "escape", which is just more game play for the PKer and doesn't do a thing as a deterrent.
I've offered ideas for Justice Systems that truly affect the PKers. I just offered an idea above, in the post you are quoting from I believe, that would definitely affect the PKers. And would cripple their characters if they do it too much. Which would definitely reduce PKing drastically. And what do I get? Ignoring the offer and a drive-by "never worked before", even though it's never been done before.
Justice system that works should culminate with an IP ban for the greifers and gankers. And more.
Your contention that your system of justice would work where all else have failed, is the same coda we hear from all of these game devs.
My system of justice is to never give these games my money. Pretty much the same for almost everyone in my gaming circle.
That's fine, you don't have to buy anything you don't want to buy.
But I've shown how my system would work. It basic logic. And I've shown why previous efforts, many just to con players in and some with the failed thinking that PKers should not really suffer because of their choices (which drive other players away), failed to stop random Ganking. And again, it's just basic logic.
It's the logic of human nature, that players won't destroy their own characters, ->and game play<-, at work here. And even if they did, it wouldn't last for long before they are ineffective at it. And become the hunted, instead of the hunter.
Why is it so hard to get people to understand this?
I wonder what makes the western MMORPG market so adverse to pking. It also seems less accepting of pay to win. The eastern market doesn't seem to have the same issues. Entitlement, fairness, control I guess are at play.
I wonder what makes the western MMORPG market so adverse to pking. It also seems less accepting of pay to win. The eastern market doesn't seem to have the same issues. Entitlement, fairness, control I guess are at play.
Maybe because eastern games had that from the start so asian players sees that as normal practice, we in the west didn't had that in the golden age of mmorpg.
that's why all these BR games are so popular. it's basically a full loot pvp game with no grinding. full loot straight to the action. full loot pvp is super fun when done right.
the problem becomes when you try and merge grinding/leveling with full loot ganking. when you force pvp onto people that just want to pve.
i agree that EvE online found the best balance to date. can't think of a single game that did it better. Aion came close with their rift system. for the life of me cannot understand why no other mmo developer hasn't gone the way of EvE. it's just so perfect. it allows all types of playstyles to interact, without forcing either pvpers or pvers onto each other. you can literally choose how much risk you want to take, and those players hell bent on doing nothing but ganking are forced to stay far away from pvers.
the only issue that EvE has really is the fact that you are always a ship. such a shame that they abandoned walking in space stations. that was truly the next step for that game.
Eve is a complete grindfest and spread sheet game. The number of players in it are also dubious. I have said it a dozen times now the population is probably a fifth of what it looks like, meaning the average number of accounts for each individual is 5. Obviously not everyone has 5 but some guys have 10 or 20.
Its also plex driven that big surge a few years ago has literally kept the game populated. I dont know how many people are joining or rejoining but the group I played with, maybe 30 people havent been playing in quite awhile. Its that niche game where the hardcores will play it to death and pay with in game currency which if you have the experience is ridiculously easy to make. Even with Plex being outrageous now compared to what they used to be the amount of isk in the game is also equally ridiculous.
As far as BRs go they feed the trolls. They also feed the ADD insta gratification mentality everyone wants now. While too many games are grinding and make you feel like its a 'job' many are also making it too easy to 'achieve' things. Everyone talks about 'balance' with MMOs but the real balance issues are class based but how the game is designed and developed between grind and 'easy mode'. BRs despite their huge interest now are a passing fad. Once the next big thing comes along and the streamers and content creators all move on to that these BRs will be nothing. You see it now within the genre. Apex came out and everyone has flocked to it. PuBG used to be king fortnite came out and people went to that game now its APex. no 'brand' loyalty and definitely showing the ADD mentality of the players of these games. None of them are particularly good or even decent. But theyre the flavor of the month and someone that they watch play it tries to explain the tiny things that make one 'better' than the other. Which doesnt mean its good it just does things differently. But in the end theyre all so similar that depending on who is streaming it that will be the one that has the most going on.
Thats why when theyre new people flock to them because everything IS new and not a grind or easy there is no point of reference until you play awhile. Some are so obviously cut and pastes from other games most people dont need any time ot see their short comings.
But ANY MMO that wants to come out cant be full anything all the time be it PvE or PvE. With maps getting bigger and bigger there is really no reason not to have the tried and true 'zone' method. Some zones are safe others arent. Its pretty simple. Any MMO that ever had any sort of longer lasting success has employed that system. Even in seemless 'openworld' maps its not hard to do it. Archeage did it fairly well. Only thing issue htere is their zones had chokepoint and entry spots you couldnt just go into a zone anywhere freely. So it was easier to know when you were getting close to a 'bad' area.
that's why all these BR games are so popular. it's basically a full loot pvp game with no grinding. full loot straight to the action. full loot pvp is super fun when done right.
the problem becomes when you try and merge grinding/leveling with full loot ganking. when you force pvp onto people that just want to pve.
i agree that EvE online found the best balance to date. can't think of a single game that did it better. Aion came close with their rift system. for the life of me cannot understand why no other mmo developer hasn't gone the way of EvE. it's just so perfect. it allows all types of playstyles to interact, without forcing either pvpers or pvers onto each other. you can literally choose how much risk you want to take, and those players hell bent on doing nothing but ganking are forced to stay far away from pvers.
the only issue that EvE has really is the fact that you are always a ship. such a shame that they abandoned walking in space stations. that was truly the next step for that game.
Eve is a complete grindfest and spread sheet game. The number of players in it are also dubious. I have said it a dozen times now the population is probably a fifth of what it looks like, meaning the average number of accounts for each individual is 5. Obviously not everyone has 5 but some guys have 10 or 20.
Its also plex driven that big surge a few years ago has literally kept the game populated. I dont know how many people are joining or rejoining but the group I played with, maybe 30 people havent been playing in quite awhile. Its that niche game where the hardcores will play it to death and pay with in game currency which if you have the experience is ridiculously easy to make. Even with Plex being outrageous now compared to what they used to be the amount of isk in the game is also equally ridiculous.
As far as BRs go they feed the trolls. They also feed the ADD insta gratification mentality everyone wants now. While too many games are grinding and make you feel like its a 'job' many are also making it too easy to 'achieve' things. Everyone talks about 'balance' with MMOs but the real balance issues are class based but how the game is designed and developed between grind and 'easy mode'. BRs despite their huge interest now are a passing fad. Once the next big thing comes along and the streamers and content creators all move on to that these BRs will be nothing. You see it now within the genre. Apex came out and everyone has flocked to it. PuBG used to be king fortnite came out and people went to that game now its APex. no 'brand' loyalty and definitely showing the ADD mentality of the players of these games. None of them are particularly good or even decent. But theyre the flavor of the month and someone that they watch play it tries to explain the tiny things that make one 'better' than the other. Which doesnt mean its good it just does things differently. But in the end theyre all so similar that depending on who is streaming it that will be the one that has the most going on.
Thats why when theyre new people flock to them because everything IS new and not a grind or easy there is no point of reference until you play awhile. Some are so obviously cut and pastes from other games most people dont need any time ot see their short comings.
But ANY MMO that wants to come out cant be full anything all the time be it PvE or PvE. With maps getting bigger and bigger there is really no reason not to have the tried and true 'zone' method. Some zones are safe others arent. Its pretty simple. Any MMO that ever had any sort of longer lasting success has employed that system. Even in seemless 'openworld' maps its not hard to do it. Archeage did it fairly well. Only thing issue htere is their zones had chokepoint and entry spots you couldnt just go into a zone anywhere freely. So it was easier to know when you were getting close to a 'bad' area.
Have only one account and never used any spreadsheet and I have hundreds of billions of isk.
The grind is what you make it, you can do plenty of things in eve solo without feeling it as a grind.
I wonder what makes the western MMORPG market so adverse to pking. It also seems less accepting of pay to win. The eastern market doesn't seem to have the same issues. Entitlement, fairness, control I guess are at play.
They see themselves as one day being in those shoes, and likely have been in other games at some point.
It's also worth mentioning that in eastern grinders gaining more power is typically a matter of solo grind. While western games start as early as your first few hours to get you into a cooperative group dungeon.
Practice doesn't make perfect, practice makes permanent.
"At one point technology meant making tech that could get to the moon, now it means making tech that could get you a taxi."
Cheap...easy to make and a good way to support the cash shop by creating anger between players that would pay anything to get even. I doubt you see any of these games that are not under the guise of f2p or early access,all low budget trashy developers. As to Fortnite..lol,you mark my words,everything i have said about gamer's in general will show to be true in the next few weeks.You see most gamer's are puppets,they follow the trend,now that some famous names are leaving FN for Apex just watch how Fortnite will drop very fast.
As to the subject of these shallow mmos doing the pvp thing,who cares,it's simple,ignore those games/developers,just find something way more interesting to play.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
Cheap...easy to make and a good way to support the cash shop by creating anger between players that would pay anything to get even. I doubt you see any of these games that are not under the guise of f2p or early access,all low budget trashy developers. As to Fortnite..lol,you mark my words,everything i have said about gamer's in general will show to be true in the next few weeks.You see most gamer's are puppets,they follow the trend,now that some famous names are leaving FN for Apex just watch how Fortnite will drop very fast.
As to the subject of these shallow mmos doing the pvp thing,who cares,it's simple,ignore those games/developers,just find something way more interesting to play.
You bring up a valid point. What a lot of these BR fanboys don't understand is that a lot of these streamers they like to follow are under contract for a certain amount of time to stream a certain game for a certain publisher. As soon as the next check comes in, that streamer is off to the next game they are getting paid to stream. That or the case of "indie streamers" they get paid straight from their communities themselves keep the cash coming in jumping from new release to new release.
most double dip. I dont think it is a requirement to tel your viewers youre being 'sponsored' many do it. I dont think even they do it all the time. Its a business and they make their business decisions. Many are complete sell outs thats how it goes.
I flip through twitch on occasion and I watch random streamers and the truth is some of the most profitable ones arent even gamers. Theyre people who have a decent sized community of vary faithful and generous followers. There is one girl who is over the top positive and is all about making viewers and her community feel 'special'. Its awkward at some times. But she streams five or six times a week on occasion streaming WoW but not for the game but for the community. She has a very steady income and she also has some 'special' streams and those are when the income is incredible. Her New Years stream was 12-15K, her 'front page' stream was maybe 10K her birthday stream was probably close to 20K. She doesnt list subs but she has less than 30K followers so a guesstimate on subs would be under 1000, probably even under 500. So her sub revenue definitely pales to the big guys who have thousands and tens of thousands of subs. But she isnt beholden to anyone.
So slightly off topic but not really. Its the age we live in where watching people do things is more common than doing things yourself. Where everyone of all ages now has their faces shoved into a phone or other device. Even when theyre out on a 'date' or supposed to be enjoying the company of another LIVE human being.
MMOs and games USED to be that outlet. The 'make believe' world. But now people are living it every moment through their phones or other devises. Facebook, twitter, snapchat whatever all have much better pvp (even with all the censoring) than any game does and people have become so desensitized to what they say or post under their real names playing a game with a fake cartoon body just doesnt do it for them.
Pvp is fun. It adds a dynamic that can’t be had with pve in any game. There are plenty of people out there who want that dynamic in a mmo and many devs are of those same people. They keep trying because someday someone will get another successful formula. There are plenty of non pvp, non full loot mmos so if that’s not your thing why put so much heart into degrading those that want to try it? Leave them alone and let them do their thing. Go play a pve game.
Eve is a complete grindfest and spread sheet game. The number of players in it are also dubious. I have said it a dozen times now the population is probably a fifth of what it looks like, meaning the average number of accounts for each individual is 5. Obviously not everyone has 5 but some guys have 10 or 20.
No, it is not. Lineage 2 is a grindfest. In EVE you can leave your ships to do their job. In L2 or WoW, or AA, you have to play all the time. In fact WoW is the worst, as L2 grind is based on mobs, so you could use illegal bots or legal macros. In WoW you have do to the quests by yourself. EVE is the less grindy game from all above.
all a matter of perspective. You DONT NEED gear in WOW, some CHOOSE to grind it. Just like some chose to do other things. Wow is simply the 'best' aspect of 'progressive' gaming. Meaning to get better gear you have to have keep getting the gear necessary to get it. Of course in some cases you can be carried but at a point everyone needs to have some sort of equality. Like I said though thats a choice. Some people are now into mount grinding. Others are probably still queuing for AV 10 year later.
No matter what you do in EVE is becomes monotonous. I played the game for over 10 years I know what it is and what it isnt. At a certain point the options become limited. It is a very diminishing return type of game. The 'better' you get the less there is to do. So then it basically becomes an asset collection game. Which I guess technically every game eventually becomes. But with Eve no matter how much you have you can never feel safe that 'its enough'. Especially if you have the mentality of being a 'player' of the highest level.
that's why all these BR games are so popular. it's basically a full loot pvp game with no grinding. full loot straight to the action. full loot pvp is super fun when done right.
the problem becomes when you try and merge grinding/leveling with full loot ganking. when you force pvp onto people that just want to pve.
i agree that EvE online found the best balance to date. can't think of a single game that did it better. Aion came close with their rift system. for the life of me cannot understand why no other mmo developer hasn't gone the way of EvE. it's just so perfect. it allows all types of playstyles to interact, without forcing either pvpers or pvers onto each other. you can literally choose how much risk you want to take, and those players hell bent on doing nothing but ganking are forced to stay far away from pvers.
the only issue that EvE has really is the fact that you are always a ship. such a shame that they abandoned walking in space stations. that was truly the next step for that game.
Probably because Eve didnt have avatars.....Thats what maeks the games so complicated.....Eve didnt have to have combat animations like msot games do....While many thought this was great, to me it was awful and boring....The skill system was interesting, nothing else in the game was.
Always cracks me up when people start throwing out RL penalties and rules an apply them to a PVP game ...
Let me know when you can pull a Hobbit from your rectum , launch Firballs from your fingertips in RL while your Dragon pet attempts to hold aggro
They apply to human psychology. If you fight in basketball you are tossed even though it's a game.
The same concept applies to video games. Negative PvP actions that have no accountability will be done. Having fireballs or guns or hand to hand has little to no difference.
Always cracks me up when people start throwing out RL penalties and rules an apply them to a PVP game ...
Let me know when you can pull a Hobbit from your rectum , launch Firballs from your fingertips in RL while your Dragon pet attempts to hold aggro
They apply to human psychology. If you fight in basketball you are tossed even though it's a game.
The same concept applies to video games. Negative PvP actions that have no accountability will be done. Having fireballs or guns or hand to hand has little to no difference.
Let me tell ya , if someone is so upset by and protective of there fucking pixels there already broken and probably lost at RL as well ...
Always cracks me up when people start throwing out RL penalties and rules an apply them to a PVP game ...
Let me know when you can pull a Hobbit from your rectum , launch Firballs from your fingertips in RL while your Dragon pet attempts to hold aggro
They apply to human psychology. If you fight in basketball you are tossed even though it's a game.
The same concept applies to video games. Negative PvP actions that have no accountability will be done. Having fireballs or guns or hand to hand has little to no difference.
Let me tell ya , if someone is so upset by and protective of there fucking pixels there already broken and probably lost at RL as well ...
Always cracks me up when people start throwing out RL penalties and rules an apply them to a PVP game ...
Let me know when you can pull a Hobbit from your rectum , launch Firballs from your fingertips in RL while your Dragon pet attempts to hold aggro
They apply to human psychology. If you fight in basketball you are tossed even though it's a game.
The same concept applies to video games. Negative PvP actions that have no accountability will be done. Having fireballs or guns or hand to hand has little to no difference.
really .. does not apply ..
If you fight in Basketball one could actually break your fucking nose , or worse , actually kill you
Comments
Once upon a time....
The one I love to point at the most is "prison." And it turns out to have "escape", which is just more game play for the PKer and doesn't do a thing as a deterrent.
I've offered ideas for Justice Systems that truly affect the PKers. I just offered an idea above, in the post you are quoting from I believe, that would definitely affect the PKers. And would cripple their characters if they do it too much. Which would definitely reduce PKing drastically.
And what do I get? Ignoring the offer and a drive-by "never worked before", even though it's never been done before.
Once upon a time....
Your contention that your system of justice would work where all else have failed, is the same coda we hear from all of these game devs.
My system of justice is to never give these games my money. Pretty much the same for almost everyone in my gaming circle.
If you are holding out for the perfect game, the only game you play will be the waiting one.
But I've shown how my system would work. It basic logic.
And I've shown why previous efforts, many just to con players in and some with the failed thinking that PKers should not really suffer because of their choices (which drive other players away), failed to stop random Ganking. And again, it's just basic logic.
It's the logic of human nature, that players won't destroy their own characters,
->and game play<-, at work here. And even if they did, it wouldn't last for long before they are ineffective at it. And become the hunted, instead of the hunter.
Why is it so hard to get people to understand this?
Once upon a time....
Its also plex driven that big surge a few years ago has literally kept the game populated. I dont know how many people are joining or rejoining but the group I played with, maybe 30 people havent been playing in quite awhile. Its that niche game where the hardcores will play it to death and pay with in game currency which if you have the experience is ridiculously easy to make. Even with Plex being outrageous now compared to what they used to be the amount of isk in the game is also equally ridiculous.
As far as BRs go they feed the trolls. They also feed the ADD insta gratification mentality everyone wants now. While too many games are grinding and make you feel like its a 'job' many are also making it too easy to 'achieve' things. Everyone talks about 'balance' with MMOs but the real balance issues are class based but how the game is designed and developed between grind and 'easy mode'. BRs despite their huge interest now are a passing fad. Once the next big thing comes along and the streamers and content creators all move on to that these BRs will be nothing. You see it now within the genre. Apex came out and everyone has flocked to it. PuBG used to be king fortnite came out and people went to that game now its APex. no 'brand' loyalty and definitely showing the ADD mentality of the players of these games. None of them are particularly good or even decent. But theyre the flavor of the month and someone that they watch play it tries to explain the tiny things that make one 'better' than the other. Which doesnt mean its good it just does things differently. But in the end theyre all so similar that depending on who is streaming it that will be the one that has the most going on.
Thats why when theyre new people flock to them because everything IS new and not a grind or easy there is no point of reference until you play awhile. Some are so obviously cut and pastes from other games most people dont need any time ot see their short comings.
But ANY MMO that wants to come out cant be full anything all the time be it PvE or PvE. With maps getting bigger and bigger there is really no reason not to have the tried and true 'zone' method. Some zones are safe others arent. Its pretty simple. Any MMO that ever had any sort of longer lasting success has employed that system. Even in seemless 'openworld' maps its not hard to do it. Archeage did it fairly well. Only thing issue htere is their zones had chokepoint and entry spots you couldnt just go into a zone anywhere freely. So it was easier to know when you were getting close to a 'bad' area.
Practice doesn't make perfect, practice makes permanent.
"At one point technology meant making tech that could get to the moon, now it means making tech that could get you a taxi."
I doubt you see any of these games that are not under the guise of f2p or early access,all low budget trashy developers.
As to Fortnite..lol,you mark my words,everything i have said about gamer's in general will show to be true in the next few weeks.You see most gamer's are puppets,they follow the trend,now that some famous names are leaving FN for Apex just watch how Fortnite will drop very fast.
As to the subject of these shallow mmos doing the pvp thing,who cares,it's simple,ignore those games/developers,just find something way more interesting to play.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
I flip through twitch on occasion and I watch random streamers and the truth is some of the most profitable ones arent even gamers. Theyre people who have a decent sized community of vary faithful and generous followers. There is one girl who is over the top positive and is all about making viewers and her community feel 'special'. Its awkward at some times. But she streams five or six times a week on occasion streaming WoW but not for the game but for the community. She has a very steady income and she also has some 'special' streams and those are when the income is incredible. Her New Years stream was 12-15K, her 'front page' stream was maybe 10K her birthday stream was probably close to 20K. She doesnt list subs but she has less than 30K followers so a guesstimate on subs would be under 1000, probably even under 500. So her sub revenue definitely pales to the big guys who have thousands and tens of thousands of subs. But she isnt beholden to anyone.
So slightly off topic but not really. Its the age we live in where watching people do things is more common than doing things yourself. Where everyone of all ages now has their faces shoved into a phone or other device. Even when theyre out on a 'date' or supposed to be enjoying the company of another LIVE human being.
MMOs and games USED to be that outlet. The 'make believe' world. But now people are living it every moment through their phones or other devises. Facebook, twitter, snapchat whatever all have much better pvp (even with all the censoring) than any game does and people have become so desensitized to what they say or post under their real names playing a game with a fake cartoon body just doesnt do it for them.
No matter what you do in EVE is becomes monotonous. I played the game for over 10 years I know what it is and what it isnt. At a certain point the options become limited. It is a very diminishing return type of game. The 'better' you get the less there is to do. So then it basically becomes an asset collection game. Which I guess technically every game eventually becomes. But with Eve no matter how much you have you can never feel safe that 'its enough'. Especially if you have the mentality of being a 'player' of the highest level.
Battle Royale > full loot pvp-only MMO.
The same concept applies to video games. Negative PvP actions that have no accountability will be done. Having fireballs or guns or hand to hand has little to no difference.