Class Race restrictions, namely (High/Ashen) Elf Paladin (and Cleric)

Adamantine

Is this still current ?

https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/5228/pantheon-class-and-race-combinations

They said at one point they'd consider to allow Paladin and Cleric for Pantheon elf, but it doesnt seem like that happened.

Personally I really wanted to recreate a character I most strongly feel that I didnt played enough in Vanguard, and make it my main.

It was a Highelf Paladin.

Highelf Paladin was allowed in Vanguard from the very beginning on.

And checking EverQuest, which I've never played - according to the web this is allowed in EverQuest, too.

However in Pantheon, according to this list, its no longer an allowed combination.

Looking at the elves in Pantheon, Ashen Elf is clearly meant to be Highelf, while Ember Elf is meant to be Wood Elf.

However, they share the same list of class race restrictions, a shared list which clearly favors traditional class picks of Wood Elf over those for Highelves. Thus: no Paladin. Also no Cleric.

I wonder if I should give in and just create the character as a Dwarf instead. However I dont usually play Dwarf. I dont like their looks and I dont like the attitude they're usually described to have. But maybe, possibly, they actually look good in Pantheon ? I sort of doubt it, really, but possibly ?

Really loved the Lineage 2 female dwarves by the way. They've been super cute. Also looked nothing like dwarves, more like gnomes or halflings. I really love the stylish Manga look; unfortunately all games with that look suck.

Neanderthal

It does seem a little odd that elves can't be cleric/paladin but I wonder how old that chart is.

Dwarfs in Pantheon are short and blue.  So basically smurfs.  I don't know if that would appeal to you or not.

Xarko

I think the chart is like 2 years old

Adamantine

Xarko said:

I think the chart is like 2 years old

Indeed it is, but the website still only says "human" and "dwarf" on the page for the Paladin class, too.

https://www.pantheonmmo.com/classes/paladin/

Kyleran

Personally, being old school & traditional as you know I always am so Paladins are Human and Lawful Good only. (1st edition)

3rd - 5th editions water the class down so much its just another fancy name for fighter.

Ungood

I'd like to think we are beyond this kind of thing, and class restrictions a waste unless they are very game-lore-driven, like what Camelot Unchained or DAoC set up.

At the same time, I am an old school gamer and remembers when Dwarf and Elf were both a race and a class.

But, there might be a good reason for it. Wait and see.

ultimateduck

The impossible has happened. I agree with Ungood. 

Adamantine

Kyleran said:

Personally, being old school & traditional as you know I always am so Paladins are Human and Lawful Good only. (1st edition)

3rd - 5th editions water the class down so much its just another fancy name for fighter.

Neither EverQuest nor Vanguard nor Pantheon are based on any version of DnD.

Adamantine

Ungood said:

I'd like to think we are beyond this kind of thing, and class restrictions a waste unless they are very game-lore-driven, like what Camelot Unchained or DAoC set up.

At the same time, I am an old school gamer and remembers when Dwarf and Elf were both a race and a class.

But, there might be a good reason for it. Wait and see.

I already explained in the original posting of the thread why I think Elves cant be Paladin and Cleric. Its highly logical. I dont expect any meaningful ingame explanation, even less so one that would in any way convince me.

Again, neither EverQuest nor any of its successors is based on any iteration of DnD. And DnD was at no point the only rulesystem available for pen and paper. Thus you cannot remember what never happened. And the idea of DnD1 to make one race have its own single class is very awful anyway, as are many ideas of DnD1.

This is a modern MMO. We have the luxury now to create a well designed, elegant, and self consistent rulesystem thats at the same time complex and balanced. Specifically developers can examine the performance of different players and evaluate if a class needs fixing.

Scot

Adamantine said:

Kyleran said:

Personally, being old school & traditional as you know I always am so Paladins are Human and Lawful Good only. (1st edition)

3rd - 5th editions water the class down so much its just another fancy name for fighter.

Neither EverQuest nor Vanguard nor Pantheon are based on any version of DnD.

Not talking about combat rules, but there were similarities in theme and class design to DnD in many of the first MMOs which follows through to today (picking up ideas from other table top RPG's as they came out). Did EQ begin allowing this it may well have not? If the game does start with that set up over time the restrictions will be relaxed as that nearly always happens.

At least in this instance you are not dealing with gender locked classes, then you can wait forever for that to be looked at.

Adamantine

Yes yes everybody learned from DnD and DnD learned from Lord of the Rings and Lord of the Rings learned from all that was before, too.

As I said: according to the internet, EQ1 already allowed High Elves to be Paladin. And Cleric.

I wouldnt go any near any genderlocked classsystem. Not for a MMO, anyway. I am annoyed enough about race restrictions for classes as is.

Well I could see a female only restriction for a Valkyr class and I could see a male only restriction for an Eunuch class, but general classes like Paladin or Necromancer etc should be available to both genders.

Gutlard

I guess we'll be stuck with Pantheon Devs' lore/rules to fit within their own game?

But I'm sure when the ball has been rolling for a while, they'll start catering to 'the masses' more and more and make changes that don't make sense, and water things down too much from the original vision; you know, the usual.

Gut Out!

Nanfoodle

Fits in the lore and also for a kickstarter MMO they have a very large verity. Every class has a few options and some classes have up to 6 racial options like the Bard. Thats allot of assets that need to be created and the more options the more assets. Some of this can be changed post launch when they have more money and as the lore grows and changes. I personally will be happy if they just work on getting whats planed done. So we have the game and not worry about the small stuff. Small stuff can get out of hand and end up taking away from the core game. 

Adamantine

Well, yeah.

Nothing in your posts changes that I want to play elven paladin and am not amused that I cant.

Tiamat64

Pantheon:  EQ with less options.

Kumapon

That class race combo is over two years old and is out of date. Nothing is set in stone yet, so everything is up in the air at the moment. 

If your into Pantheon Elf lore, here is a nice video 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ChFtXJK9wQ

BazgrimTV

Even though that matrix is from 2017, it is still up-to-date. All race/class combinations in Pantheon do indeed have a specific reason based in lore. A lot of thought and discussion was put into each one before releasing the official chart. Here is the explanation from a newsletter that includes a quote from VR's Lead Writer Justin Gerhart:

"Another hot button issue was that of the lack of a Cleric or Paladin class available to our Elves. While the superficial answer of “think of them as wood elves, not high elves” makes sense to most veteran gamers, there is a deeper lore meaning behind that rationale. Justin explained that the races that were prone to produce Clerics and Paladins were ones that were deeply connected to their deities, and that relationship was one that was central to their daily lives. The Elves are a bit different in that regard:

'While their pantheon is important to the Elves, their response to several tragic and divisive historical moments has superseded the way they see themselves. To a degree Elves have become more ideological than religious. While some races are separated into different factions based on which deity they worship, Elves are split between two extremes (Ashen and Ember) and the nominal middle called Lucent. Those division represent the way they think is best to protect and prosper their people. Is it interwoven with their worship? Yes. But faith isn’t the first-thought focus of their life. It’s fair to ask if that is an imbalance for them'

It is also important to note that many of the lore based decisions on which race can be which class are also dictated to some degree by overall game representations and balance, and more importantly that just because something is currently so, doesn’t mean it can’t or won’t change in the future. Elves are a good example here, as while they currently don’t produce the pious classes, they may, through future events or interactions, develop a sect that takes up that mantle.

We will have to keep a close watch on the lore to see what might develop in the future."

Source: https://www.pantheonmmo.com/newsletter/2017_march_loremaster/

Adamantine

Yeah sorry, but that one doesnt fly with me at all.

I want to play class combo X and get told "oh the lore is different in that game" then my answer is a straight "ok great not playing that game then bye".

I dont really understand why they're trying to reinvent the wheel in this anyway. Darkelves are Mermaids now ? Gnomes are Golems now ? Pfft.

Adamantine

Thats marketing b.s.

They use the same races as always, they use the same classes as always, they use the same concept as always - such as arbritarily restricting class choices for races.

And if at all their use of the usual stereotypes is only worse than before. Seriously, Gnomes are golems now ? Yeesh. Thats really a parody of usual Gnomes.

And they have introduced these small random changes into the system ... to what end ? Apparently only to be different, not to actually improve anything.

Thus if I get blocked from playing the race and class I want to play just because somebody came up with some completely arbritary reasons, I have zero understanding for that. Absolutely zip.

Orthelian

I don't know why, with all the organic flux that fantasy worlds have been through for decades upon decades, you want to strangle it down to one common setting. I hope you are forever disappointed with this attitude. Something is not "reinventing the wheel only to be different" simply because you don't personally like a certain iteration on the trope, in a sea of iterations.

cheyane

If they make up a lore and then have restrictions they want to adhere to that, I guess. If they want to create a lore and make a decision to strictly decide that certain races have the classes and not others, it's a bit difficult to argue since it's their creation.  Have to wait and see what happens. No point getting into a fit about it now. Or ask them at the next Q and A and make up your mind then.