Vanilla WoW has more grind modern WoW. Evidence: I played both. I leveled with no assistance to level 80 in modern and leveled up to 45 in vanilla with assistance.
...my bad. I forgot I am asking you something you can't provide.
I gave you evidence. You gave nothing to refute it. Should be easy right. So my evidence wins. Modern MMORPG are less grindy than old MMORPG.
I think he's right. Many consider leveling to be a grind. Objectively leveling is typically faster in games today than in games 10-15+ years ago. Therefore grinding is less.
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
I think he's right. Many consider leveling to be a grind. Objectively leveling is typically faster in games today than in games 10-15+ years ago. Therefore grinding is less.
For discussion like this, we need a clear definition. For "Grind", I'd say that's anything that you repeat exactly the same, over and over again.
I think he's right. Many consider leveling to be a grind. Objectively leveling is typically faster in games today than in games 10-15+ years ago. Therefore grinding is less.
For discussion like this, we need a clear definition. For "Grind", I'd say that's anything that you repeat exactly the same, over and over again.
People have been talking about the grind and grinding out levels since EQ. It's just repetition in MMO speak.
Isn't no leveling at all in a multiplayer setting basically what battle royal is?
That's more of what I was thinking but BR games have no ability customization and are still loot based. Whoever finds the best guns/ammo/shields has a pretty good advantage.
That's a ridiculous comparison. Endgame in WoW and Endgame in GW2 is nothing like Battle Royal. The world is fully exploreable. In GW2 all my characters are level 80. I even level skipped my Revenant to max level and did my own exploration once I skipped to max level.
You are holding forth GW2 as your example, probably the MMORPG with a design I could not be less interested in.
Oh yes, that useless leveling mechanic grandfathered in from older MMOS, WOW Classic stands poised to be the most successful MMORPG (re) launch this year.
Whether you like it or not, you are in the minority, gamers love their progression, the more the better, it's what built the RPG / MMORPG genres.
You are looking for what we used to call Adventure games like Kings Quest, Myst and the like.
Uh, you realized MMORPG players are vast minority of players and stuff like that is part of the reason. Tried to introduce people into MMORPG and bad gameplay and grinds drive them away.
Also, if someone is looking for a game world to play it with other players recommend a single player game, FPS, MOBA or BR is just an asshole move.
MMORPG is not for everyone, nor SHOULD it be. So what? If YOU don't like the "bad gameplay" (opinion there) and "grind", why do YOU even want to play them?
Trying to say "MMORPG" without progression is an asshole move, too. Drop the "RPG" at the end and I will listen more attentively
People mistakenly assume RP in MMORPG stands for Role Playing, it actually means Regular Progression, a core pillar in fact.
Now progression can come in many forms besides levels, but without solid progression mechanics there really is no game play.
A game with no progression is akin to mountain climbing by circling the base instead of going for the top.
I'm sure it would still be an adventure but who really bothers doing it? But hey, for those who enjoy it, feel free to call it mountain circling, just don't mess with our climbing, or MMORPGs.
Lol, what you talking about. I'm pretty sure almost all MMORPG assume RP stands for role playing.
That being said, I think most (not sure what percentage) RPG players prefer an RPG with progression. So a non progression RPG isn't mainstream.
Isn't no leveling at all in a multiplayer setting basically what battle royal is?
That's more of what I was thinking but BR games have no ability customization and are still loot based. Whoever finds the best guns/ammo/shields has a pretty good advantage.
That's a ridiculous comparison. Endgame in WoW and Endgame in GW2 is nothing like Battle Royal. The world is fully exploreable. In GW2 all my characters are level 80. I even level skipped my Revenant to max level and did my own exploration once I skipped to max level.
You are holding forth GW2 as your example, probably the MMORPG with a design I could not be less interested in.
Oh yes, that useless leveling mechanic grandfathered in from older MMOS, WOW Classic stands poised to be the most successful MMORPG (re) launch this year.
Whether you like it or not, you are in the minority, gamers love their progression, the more the better, it's what built the RPG / MMORPG genres.
You are looking for what we used to call Adventure games like Kings Quest, Myst and the like.
Uh, you realized MMORPG players are vast minority of players and stuff like that is part of the reason. Tried to introduce people into MMORPG and bad gameplay and grinds drive them away.
Also, if someone is looking for a game world to play it with other players recommend a single player game, FPS, MOBA or BR is just an asshole move.
MMORPG is not for everyone, nor SHOULD it be. So what? If YOU don't like the "bad gameplay" (opinion there) and "grind", why do YOU even want to play them?
Trying to say "MMORPG" without progression is an asshole move, too. Drop the "RPG" at the end and I will listen more attentively
People mistakenly assume RP in MMORPG stands for Role Playing, it actually means Regular Progression, a core pillar in fact.
Now progression can come in many forms besides levels, but without solid progression mechanics there really is no game play.
A game with no progression is akin to mountain climbing by circling the base instead of going for the top.
I'm sure it would still be an adventure but who really bothers doing it? But hey, for those who enjoy it, feel free to call it mountain circling, just don't mess with our climbing, or MMORPGs.
Lol, what you talking about. I'm pretty sure almost all MMORPG assume RP stands for role playing.
That being said, I think most (not sure what percentage) RPG players prefer an RPG with progression. So a non progression RPG isn't mainstream.
My sort of tongue in cheek commentary often escapes others... .or...
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I figured themepark MMO would become something more akin to looter shooters without the looting.
Quick leveling or to no levels Classes with clear roles and distinct action roles. 32 player city hubs and with smaller open world. Solo and 2-8 man missions, 8 man dungeons and 20 man raids. Gear being more solutions and gated content keys.
I played GW2 for a solid chunk. I don't understand why people say items are only cosmetic. When I played there was constant gear upgrades through drops and crafting. But even then people claimed there wasn't. Either I was constantly hallucinating or there was a gear with stats and upgrades and a fully fleshed out itemization system.
Nobody said GW2 didnt have item progression. It has levels as well. What we talking about here is that the level grind isnt needed since most of us play at max level which scales the whole world. It's not needed to still have the same progression mechanics as endgame in most other MMOs.
In WoW and ESO most people play at max level. Any popular game with tons of players has most people playing at max level. I know ESO scales the world. I think WoW does too now.
How is the progression mechanics different? You get better items and equip them, right?
I didn't last long enough in GW2 to get to max level, and I haven't played WoW in years and years, and I didn't play ESo to max level either.
What, specifically, is different in them now that the world scales? How did this change mechanics? Instead of running raids you just clear maps for various stuff that aren't item upgrades?
I did play DCUO at end game for a while. I'm not sure if its like that with the constant grind for finding costume piece sets and clues or whatnot for skill points. I know I'm not a fan of that.
GW2, ESO, and WOW have a level grind to max level. That is a 100% fact. If you are saying the games stay the same play-wise and you keep doing exactly what you were doing leveling up at max level, instead of like in old-wow and most older mmorpgs where what you did to level and what you do at max is very different, okay. I can see that.
So are you arguing for not stop-leveling experience, instead of no leveling then? What's the difference?
The problem continues to be that all developers (and players) are looking for the "one game to rule them all" and insisting that they have to appeal to pretty much every person on the planet.
RPGs were always niche MMOs were always niche A few games broke those barriers
Instead of recognizing that those few games are the outliers we continue to argue and debate as though there is one single answer to the right type of game that will appeal to everyone.
If there was a formula for fun then things would be so much easier...
90% of games have RP element in them > so RPG were niche
billions people online in some kind of massive multiplayer , mostly for social interface > MMOs were niche
How about admit that those guy who failed are waste of money idiot ?
They had money
They had skill
but they failed to put things together . That's what happen in past 3 decades .
There are formula for fun , but make player stress bring more money so they never did .
Ever since those guy start made game as service instead an object , gaming gone down hill .
Actually, Leveling serves a solid purpose, and so does gating things behind that leveling progress.
The main purpose of leveling, at least for a first time player (IE: New Player) is to cut up the game into easy to understand chunks, and allow them to be presented to the player as they progress.
To use a Simple Example: Combat for a generic MMO. You start at level 1, with one attack skill, and learn how to use that skill. Then at level 3 you learn a second attack skill, and at this time you learn how the skills can work together, so then you go and practice those combos. Then at level 5, you learn a 3rd attack skill, etc, etc, and as more skills get given to you, the easier it is to understand how they work, because they were not all dumped upon you at once and left with information overload.
That is a main reason for leveling, to allow the game to to be presented to the player in sections over time, as they level up.
This is also why some games do not let players access some content, like player housing, or dungeons, or new areas, till they are a high enough level, because those areas might have features, and things they want the player to learn about before they have to face it in those areas or in that manner.
Now, in this regard, I think GW2 had a nice idea with earning Tomes of Leveling, this way, you kinda needed to learn the game and how to play (Which many didn't anyway) the first time up, but after that, you could speed cap your alts.
In that regard, they used the leveling feature as it was intended, to teach the players the game, at least for their first time playing.. after that, they could shoot an alt up to cap with no effort beyond 80 clicks.
So, Leveling has its reasons to exist in games. I think some people think too much of their own awesomeness to appreciate its function and purpose.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
Actually, Leveling serves a solid purpose, and so does gating things behind that leveling progress.
The main purpose of leveling, at least for a first time player (IE: New Player) is to cut up the game into easy to understand chunks, and allow them to be presented to the player as they progress.
To use a Simple Example: Combat for a generic MMO. You start at level 1, with one attack skill, and learn how to use that skill. Then at level 3 you learn a second attack skill, and at this time you learn how the skills can work together, so then you go and practice those combos. Then at level 5, you learn a 3rd attack skill, etc, etc, and as more skills get given to you, the easier it is to understand how they work, because they were not all dumped upon you at once and left with information overload.
That is a main reason for leveling, to allow the game to to be presented to the player in sections over time, as they level up.
This is also why some games do not let players access some content, like player housing, or dungeons, or new areas, till they are a high enough level, because those areas might have features, and things they want the player to learn about before they have to face it in those areas or in that manner.
Now, in this regard, I think GW2 had a nice idea with earning Tomes of Leveling, this way, you kinda needed to learn the game and how to play (Which many didn't anyway) the first time up, but after that, you could speed cap your alts.
In that regard, they used the leveling feature as it was intended, to teach the players the game, at least for their first time playing.. after that, they could shoot an alt up to cap with no effort beyond 80 clicks.
So, Leveling has its reasons to exist in games. I think some people think too much of their own awesomeness to appreciate its function and purpose.
Or you could just have class quest that show you exactly how and when to use spells and abilities.
Actually, Leveling serves a solid purpose, and so does gating things behind that leveling progress.
The main purpose of leveling, at least for a first time player (IE: New Player) is to cut up the game into easy to understand chunks, and allow them to be presented to the player as they progress.
To use a Simple Example: Combat for a generic MMO. You start at level 1, with one attack skill, and learn how to use that skill. Then at level 3 you learn a second attack skill, and at this time you learn how the skills can work together, so then you go and practice those combos. Then at level 5, you learn a 3rd attack skill, etc, etc, and as more skills get given to you, the easier it is to understand how they work, because they were not all dumped upon you at once and left with information overload.
That is a main reason for leveling, to allow the game to to be presented to the player in sections over time, as they level up.
This is also why some games do not let players access some content, like player housing, or dungeons, or new areas, till they are a high enough level, because those areas might have features, and things they want the player to learn about before they have to face it in those areas or in that manner.
Now, in this regard, I think GW2 had a nice idea with earning Tomes of Leveling, this way, you kinda needed to learn the game and how to play (Which many didn't anyway) the first time up, but after that, you could speed cap your alts.
In that regard, they used the leveling feature as it was intended, to teach the players the game, at least for their first time playing.. after that, they could shoot an alt up to cap with no effort beyond 80 clicks.
So, Leveling has its reasons to exist in games. I think some people think too much of their own awesomeness to appreciate its function and purpose.
Or you could just have class quest that show you exactly how and when to use spells and abilities.
What the hell are you talking about? Class quests?
Really these No level ideas seem to get dumber and dumber as these discussions go on.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
I remember in EQ when players started complaining often about having to level their characters, so what was their solution? They started buying fully finished characters on ebay and for several hundred dollars.
Actually, Leveling serves a solid purpose, and so does gating things behind that leveling progress.
The main purpose of leveling, at least for a first time player (IE: New Player) is to cut up the game into easy to understand chunks, and allow them to be presented to the player as they progress.
To use a Simple Example: Combat for a generic MMO. You start at level 1, with one attack skill, and learn how to use that skill. Then at level 3 you learn a second attack skill, and at this time you learn how the skills can work together, so then you go and practice those combos. Then at level 5, you learn a 3rd attack skill, etc, etc, and as more skills get given to you, the easier it is to understand how they work, because they were not all dumped upon you at once and left with information overload.
That is a main reason for leveling, to allow the game to to be presented to the player in sections over time, as they level up.
This is also why some games do not let players access some content, like player housing, or dungeons, or new areas, till they are a high enough level, because those areas might have features, and things they want the player to learn about before they have to face it in those areas or in that manner.
Now, in this regard, I think GW2 had a nice idea with earning Tomes of Leveling, this way, you kinda needed to learn the game and how to play (Which many didn't anyway) the first time up, but after that, you could speed cap your alts.
In that regard, they used the leveling feature as it was intended, to teach the players the game, at least for their first time playing.. after that, they could shoot an alt up to cap with no effort beyond 80 clicks.
So, Leveling has its reasons to exist in games. I think some people think too much of their own awesomeness to appreciate its function and purpose.
Or you could just have class quest that show you exactly how and when to use spells and abilities.
What the hell are you talking about? Class quests?
Really these No level ideas seem to get dumber and dumber as these discussions go on.
Uh, you have a quest you learn how you to use fireball. Next quest you learn how to use firestorm. Next quest teaches you how to Ice blast.
I played GW2 for a solid chunk. I don't understand why people say items are only cosmetic. When I played there was constant gear upgrades through drops and crafting. But even then people claimed there wasn't. Either I was constantly hallucinating or there was a gear with stats and upgrades and a fully fleshed out itemization system.
Nobody said GW2 didnt have item progression. It has levels as well. What we talking about here is that the level grind isnt needed since most of us play at max level which scales the whole world. It's not needed to still have the same progression mechanics as endgame in most other MMOs.
In WoW and ESO most people play at max level. Any popular game with tons of players has most people playing at max level. I know ESO scales the world. I think WoW does too now.
How is the progression mechanics different? You get better items and equip them, right?
I didn't last long enough in GW2 to get to max level, and I haven't played WoW in years and years, and I didn't play ESo to max level either.
What, specifically, is different in them now that the world scales? How did this change mechanics? Instead of running raids you just clear maps for various stuff that aren't item upgrades?
I did play DCUO at end game for a while. I'm not sure if its like that with the constant grind for finding costume piece sets and clues or whatnot for skill points. I know I'm not a fan of that.
GW2, ESO, and WOW have a level grind to max level. That is a 100% fact. If you are saying the games stay the same play-wise and you keep doing exactly what you were doing leveling up at max level, instead of like in old-wow and most older mmorpgs where what you did to level and what you do at max is very different, okay. I can see that.
So are you arguing for not stop-leveling experience, instead of no leveling then? What's the difference?
The subject is regarding removing levels from MMORPGs. Aka my argument is that you dont need traditional character levels grind in MMOs.
Some here counterargument was that all MMOs need progression.
Which I elaborate that I nor anybody else ever said to remove all progression from MMOs. We said just remove the player levels. It's not a needed mechanic to have a meaningful progression. It actually burdens gameplay having character levels and gated world.
I clarified some more, GW2's endgame is 100% level scaled, meaning you still progress in low level zones as you do in high level zones. If the level mechanics were removed from GW2, nothing about a player's play style and progression would change compared to a playing who is level 80. Nothing would change because the whole world is one level, aka endgame.
In WoW most of your time is at max level, which rarely will you go back to low level meaninglessness areas. These areas become wasted content. But if WoW didnt have levels, ALL ZONES WOULD BE USEFUL GAME CONTENT. No such thing as outleveling content in a WoW mmo with no levels. You still would have progression like any max level player does in WoW currently. As in Dungeons, Raids, Gear, mounts, skins, etc. Your choice on how you want to go about doing it. Again no different from a WoW player at endgame.
So the argument that a levelless system is void of progression is flawed. i hope I was able to respectful clear that up for you to understand.
Vanilla WoW has more grind modern WoW. Evidence: I played both. I leveled with no assistance to level 80 in modern and leveled up to 45 in vanilla with assistance.
...my bad. I forgot I am asking you something you can't provide.
I gave you evidence. You gave nothing to refute it. Should be easy right. So my evidence wins. Modern MMORPG are less grindy than old MMORPG.
Not sure why you give that troll breath man. You make good valid points and present defensible arguments, all that twit has is the lol button. He is a troll, nothing more. Worse than useless. Don't feed it.
On to your point, I tend to agree. I feel like games used to be more about the journey than the end game. Generalizing, of course, but that is the feeling I have.
If you want a new idea, go read an old book.
In order to be insulted, I must first value your opinion.
I figured themepark MMO would become something more akin to looter shooters without the looting.
Quick leveling or to no levels Classes with clear roles and distinct action roles. 32 player city hubs and with smaller open world. Solo and 2-8 man missions, 8 man dungeons and 20 man raids. Gear being more solutions and gated content keys.
Isn't it already happening? I dont' play many games but I thought most major western mmorpg have pretty short leveling. Many seemed as short as other shooter or ARPG.
RPGs are traditionally all about leveling and lobby shooters are not.
I understand why some of you confuse the two since online RPGs have borrowed so heavily from shooter game play (think short duration scenario PvP with scoreboards - often with "level scaling" to minimize disparities) and shooters have done the same from RPGs (think permanent ability progression trees) more and more over the years.
There have always been players who prefer one type over the other type. But only lately have I've been reading some people wanting all their games, be they shooters or RPGs, to be exactly the same according to their preference.
The solution is easy: pick the type you like and play those exclusively and STFU about trying to change the other genre you don't really like in the first place to be like the one you do like.
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
Isn't no leveling at all in a multiplayer setting basically what battle royal is?
That's more of what I was thinking but BR games have no ability customization and are still loot based. Whoever finds the best guns/ammo/shields has a pretty good advantage.
That's a ridiculous comparison. Endgame in WoW and Endgame in GW2 is nothing like Battle Royal. The world is fully exploreable. In GW2 all my characters are level 80. I even level skipped my Revenant to max level and did my own exploration once I skipped to max level.
You are holding forth GW2 as your example, probably the MMORPG with a design I could not be less interested in.
Oh yes, that useless leveling mechanic grandfathered in from older MMOS, WOW Classic stands poised to be the most successful MMORPG (re) launch this year.
Whether you like it or not, you are in the minority, gamers love their progression, the more the better, it's what built the RPG / MMORPG genres.
You are looking for what we used to call Adventure games like Kings Quest, Myst and the like.
Uh, you realized MMORPG players are vast minority of players and stuff like that is part of the reason. Tried to introduce people into MMORPG and bad gameplay and grinds drive them away.
Also, if someone is looking for a game world to play it with other players recommend a single player game, FPS, MOBA or BR is just an asshole move.
MMORPG is not for everyone, nor SHOULD it be. So what? If YOU don't like the "bad gameplay" (opinion there) and "grind", why do YOU even want to play them?
Trying to say "MMORPG" without progression is an asshole move, too. Drop the "RPG" at the end and I will listen more attentively
Right they are not for everyone. I largely don't play MMORPG. But a lot of people on this forum are not happy with the state of genre. Yet as has been the case since I have been on these forums those with alternate ideas get told to play other games.
Used to be told to go play quake and it changes as the next hot online game type comes around. It is basically an insult that your ideas don't belong and neither do you. It is an asshole move because largely the people who say don't even understand the discussion. Just different is bad.
Sorry to tell you this but you can play a role in MMORPG without vertical progression because you have other players to play roles with. 90% of content played in the genre is levelless or level scaled. MMORPG are not directly RPG.
You are going to tell me WoW would not be a MMORPG if everyone started at end game? It would be the same game basically.
It really depends on what the poster is asking for, doesn't it? I've seen my share of "play THIS game, instead!" posts and sometimes, they are warranted. Other times, I agree with you that they're 100% being a dick.
An MMORPG without progression (let's not forget this important part: NO PROGRESSION) is not just a "different idea", it goes out of the bounds of the "RPG" genre. There are not only lots of games, but lots of genres that fit this bill.
The point you're not making, or people are not getting, is the desire for a world to explore and play in. THAT brings us back to MMOs, which used to do this rather well. Unfortunately, there are not millions of players desiring this kind of "no progress" gameplay and like ALL businesses, if there are not enough "customers", it will never see the light of day.
The post that prompted this thread was spot on, I think. The games suggested, admittedly NOT MMOs, had ALL the other desires listed. As Meatloaf once said, "3 out of 4 ain't bad..."
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
What is the basis for this opinion? Specifics, please.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
Actually, Leveling serves a solid purpose, and so does gating things behind that leveling progress.
The main purpose of leveling, at least for a first time player (IE: New Player) is to cut up the game into easy to understand chunks, and allow them to be presented to the player as they progress.
To use a Simple Example: Combat for a generic MMO. You start at level 1, with one attack skill, and learn how to use that skill. Then at level 3 you learn a second attack skill, and at this time you learn how the skills can work together, so then you go and practice those combos. Then at level 5, you learn a 3rd attack skill, etc, etc, and as more skills get given to you, the easier it is to understand how they work, because they were not all dumped upon you at once and left with information overload.
That is a main reason for leveling, to allow the game to to be presented to the player in sections over time, as they level up.
This is also why some games do not let players access some content, like player housing, or dungeons, or new areas, till they are a high enough level, because those areas might have features, and things they want the player to learn about before they have to face it in those areas or in that manner.
Now, in this regard, I think GW2 had a nice idea with earning Tomes of Leveling, this way, you kinda needed to learn the game and how to play (Which many didn't anyway) the first time up, but after that, you could speed cap your alts.
In that regard, they used the leveling feature as it was intended, to teach the players the game, at least for their first time playing.. after that, they could shoot an alt up to cap with no effort beyond 80 clicks.
So, Leveling has its reasons to exist in games. I think some people think too much of their own awesomeness to appreciate its function and purpose.
Or you could just have class quest that show you exactly how and when to use spells and abilities.
You mean... like... progression?
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
Isn't no leveling at all in a multiplayer setting basically what battle royal is?
That's more of what I was thinking but BR games have no ability customization and are still loot based. Whoever finds the best guns/ammo/shields has a pretty good advantage.
That's a ridiculous comparison. Endgame in WoW and Endgame in GW2 is nothing like Battle Royal. The world is fully exploreable. In GW2 all my characters are level 80. I even level skipped my Revenant to max level and did my own exploration once I skipped to max level.
You are holding forth GW2 as your example, probably the MMORPG with a design I could not be less interested in.
Oh yes, that useless leveling mechanic grandfathered in from older MMOS, WOW Classic stands poised to be the most successful MMORPG (re) launch this year.
Whether you like it or not, you are in the minority, gamers love their progression, the more the better, it's what built the RPG / MMORPG genres.
You are looking for what we used to call Adventure games like Kings Quest, Myst and the like.
Uh, you realized MMORPG players are vast minority of players and stuff like that is part of the reason. Tried to introduce people into MMORPG and bad gameplay and grinds drive them away.
Also, if someone is looking for a game world to play it with other players recommend a single player game, FPS, MOBA or BR is just an asshole move.
MMORPG is not for everyone, nor SHOULD it be. So what? If YOU don't like the "bad gameplay" (opinion there) and "grind", why do YOU even want to play them?
Trying to say "MMORPG" without progression is an asshole move, too. Drop the "RPG" at the end and I will listen more attentively
Right they are not for everyone. I largely don't play MMORPG. But a lot of people on this forum are not happy with the state of genre. Yet as has been the case since I have been on these forums those with alternate ideas get told to play other games.
Used to be told to go play quake and it changes as thenext hot online game type comes around. It is basically an insult that your ideas don't belong and neither do you. It is an asshole move because largely the people who say don't even understand the discussion. Just different is bad.
Sorry to tell you this but you can play a role in MMORPG without vertical progression because you have other players to play roles with. 90% of content played in the genre is levelless or level scaled. MMORPG are not directly RPG.
You are going to tell me WoW would not be a MMORPG if everyone started at end game? It would be the same game basically.
It really depends on what the poster is asking for, doesn't it? I've seen my share of "play THIS game, instead!" posts and sometimes, they are warranted. Other times, I agree with you that they're 100% being a dick.
An MMORPG without progression (let's not forget this important part: NO PROGRESSION) is not just a "different idea", it goes out of the bounds of the "RPG" genre. There are not only lots of games, but lots of genres that fit this bill.
The point you're not making, or people are not getting, is the desire for a world to explore and play in. THAT brings us back to MMOs, which used to do this rather well. Unfortunately, there are not millions of players desiring this kind of "no progress" gameplay and like ALL businesses, if there are not enough "customers", it will never see the light of day.
The post that prompted this thread was spot on, I think. The games suggested, admittedly NOT MMOs, had ALL the other desires listed. As Meatloaf once said, "3 out of 4 ain't bad..."
So you are basically saying RPG = numbers and gear score?
Your saying if in WoW you took away levels and gear then made everything cosmetic drop it would stop being WoW? Stops being an RPG with all the content and quest? It just becomes a BR?
I don't see it that way. I guess you could say it still would have story progression.
It is interesting that as much as people talk about story and the like defining RPG. It seems like people believe more in numbers and gear score.
Actually, Leveling serves a solid purpose, and so does gating things behind that leveling progress.
The main purpose of leveling, at least for a first time player (IE: New Player) is to cut up the game into easy to understand chunks, and allow them to be presented to the player as they progress.
To use a Simple Example: Combat for a generic MMO. You start at level 1, with one attack skill, and learn how to use that skill. Then at level 3 you learn a second attack skill, and at this time you learn how the skills can work together, so then you go and practice those combos. Then at level 5, you learn a 3rd attack skill, etc, etc, and as more skills get given to you, the easier it is to understand how they work, because they were not all dumped upon you at once and left with information overload.
That is a main reason for leveling, to allow the game to to be presented to the player in sections over time, as they level up.
This is also why some games do not let players access some content, like player housing, or dungeons, or new areas, till they are a high enough level, because those areas might have features, and things they want the player to learn about before they have to face it in those areas or in that manner.
Now, in this regard, I think GW2 had a nice idea with earning Tomes of Leveling, this way, you kinda needed to learn the game and how to play (Which many didn't anyway) the first time up, but after that, you could speed cap your alts.
In that regard, they used the leveling feature as it was intended, to teach the players the game, at least for their first time playing.. after that, they could shoot an alt up to cap with no effort beyond 80 clicks.
So, Leveling has its reasons to exist in games. I think some people think too much of their own awesomeness to appreciate its function and purpose.
Or you could just have class quest that show you exactly how and when to use spells and abilities.
What the hell are you talking about? Class quests?
Really these No level ideas seem to get dumber and dumber as these discussions go on.
Uh, you have a quest you learn how you to use fireball. Next quest you learn how to use firestorm. Next quest teaches you how to Ice blast.
This sounds like far, far, more tedious and aggravating than simply saying "At level 2 you can learn an additional spell, you can pick between Fire Ball and Ice Blast, at level 6 you can learn Fire Storm or Ice Storm"
I can't even begin to fathom how much this would piss-off anyone trying to make an alt that they now need to go and do all these "introductory" quests again, when before they could not even handle something as open progress as leveling.
This is a prime example of trying to replace leveling with a more annoying game mechanic. Which might be why, developers just stick to leveling to provide the learning experience for a game.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
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For "Grind", I'd say that's anything that you repeat exactly the same, over and over again.
Once upon a time....
That being said, I think most (not sure what percentage) RPG players prefer an RPG with progression. So a non progression RPG isn't mainstream.
It's a joke son.....
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Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
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Quick leveling or to no levels Classes with clear roles and distinct action roles. 32 player city hubs and with smaller open world. Solo and 2-8 man missions, 8 man dungeons and 20 man raids. Gear being more solutions and gated content keys.
How is the progression mechanics different? You get better items and equip them, right?
I didn't last long enough in GW2 to get to max level, and I haven't played WoW in years and years, and I didn't play ESo to max level either.
What, specifically, is different in them now that the world scales? How did this change mechanics? Instead of running raids you just clear maps for various stuff that aren't item upgrades?
I did play DCUO at end game for a while. I'm not sure if its like that with the constant grind for finding costume piece sets and clues or whatnot for skill points. I know I'm not a fan of that.
GW2, ESO, and WOW have a level grind to max level. That is a 100% fact. If you are saying the games stay the same play-wise and you keep doing exactly what you were doing leveling up at max level, instead of like in old-wow and most older mmorpgs where what you did to level and what you do at max is very different, okay. I can see that.
So are you arguing for not stop-leveling experience, instead of no leveling then? What's the difference?
The main purpose of leveling, at least for a first time player (IE: New Player) is to cut up the game into easy to understand chunks, and allow them to be presented to the player as they progress.
To use a Simple Example: Combat for a generic MMO. You start at level 1, with one attack skill, and learn how to use that skill. Then at level 3 you learn a second attack skill, and at this time you learn how the skills can work together, so then you go and practice those combos. Then at level 5, you learn a 3rd attack skill, etc, etc, and as more skills get given to you, the easier it is to understand how they work, because they were not all dumped upon you at once and left with information overload.
That is a main reason for leveling, to allow the game to to be presented to the player in sections over time, as they level up.
This is also why some games do not let players access some content, like player housing, or dungeons, or new areas, till they are a high enough level, because those areas might have features, and things they want the player to learn about before they have to face it in those areas or in that manner.
Now, in this regard, I think GW2 had a nice idea with earning Tomes of Leveling, this way, you kinda needed to learn the game and how to play (Which many didn't anyway) the first time up, but after that, you could speed cap your alts.
In that regard, they used the leveling feature as it was intended, to teach the players the game, at least for their first time playing.. after that, they could shoot an alt up to cap with no effort beyond 80 clicks.
So, Leveling has its reasons to exist in games. I think some people think too much of their own awesomeness to appreciate its function and purpose.
Really these No level ideas seem to get dumber and dumber as these discussions go on.
Some here counterargument was that all MMOs need progression.
Which I elaborate that I nor anybody else ever said to remove all progression from MMOs. We said just remove the player levels. It's not a needed mechanic to have a meaningful progression. It actually burdens gameplay having character levels and gated world.
I clarified some more, GW2's endgame is 100% level scaled, meaning you still progress in low level zones as you do in high level zones. If the level mechanics were removed from GW2, nothing about a player's play style and progression would change compared to a playing who is level 80. Nothing would change because the whole world is one level, aka endgame.
In WoW most of your time is at max level, which rarely will you go back to low level meaninglessness areas. These areas become wasted content. But if WoW didnt have levels, ALL ZONES WOULD BE USEFUL GAME CONTENT. No such thing as outleveling content in a WoW mmo with no levels. You still would have progression like any max level player does in WoW currently. As in Dungeons, Raids, Gear, mounts, skins, etc. Your choice on how you want to go about doing it. Again no different from a WoW player at endgame.
So the argument that a levelless system is void of progression is flawed. i hope I was able to respectful clear that up for you to understand.
Philosophy of MMO Game Design
On to your point, I tend to agree. I feel like games used to be more about the journey than the end game. Generalizing, of course, but that is the feeling I have.
If you want a new idea, go read an old book.
In order to be insulted, I must first value your opinion.
You remove levels, there will still be gear, resources or w/e power gaps that will gate the content.
It has nothing to do with levels, what you are advocating for is world scaling.
I understand why some of you confuse the two since online RPGs have borrowed so heavily from shooter game play (think short duration scenario PvP with scoreboards - often with "level scaling" to minimize disparities) and shooters have done the same from RPGs (think permanent ability progression trees) more and more over the years.
There have always been players who prefer one type over the other type. But only lately have I've been reading some people wanting all their games, be they shooters or RPGs, to be exactly the same according to their preference.
The solution is easy: pick the type you like and play those exclusively and STFU about trying to change the other genre you don't really like in the first place to be like the one you do like.
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An MMORPG without progression (let's not forget this important part: NO PROGRESSION) is not just a "different idea", it goes out of the bounds of the "RPG" genre. There are not only lots of games, but lots of genres that fit this bill.
The point you're not making, or people are not getting, is the desire for a world to explore and play in. THAT brings us back to MMOs, which used to do this rather well. Unfortunately, there are not millions of players desiring this kind of "no progress" gameplay and like ALL businesses, if there are not enough "customers", it will never see the light of day.
The post that prompted this thread was spot on, I think. The games suggested, admittedly NOT MMOs, had ALL the other desires listed. As Meatloaf once said, "3 out of 4 ain't bad..."
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
Your saying if in WoW you took away levels and gear then made everything cosmetic drop it would stop being WoW? Stops being an RPG with all the content and quest? It just becomes a BR?
I don't see it that way. I guess you could say it still would have story progression.
It is interesting that as much as people talk about story and the like defining RPG. It seems like people believe more in numbers and gear score.
I can't even begin to fathom how much this would piss-off anyone trying to make an alt that they now need to go and do all these "introductory" quests again, when before they could not even handle something as open progress as leveling.
This is a prime example of trying to replace leveling with a more annoying game mechanic. Which might be why, developers just stick to leveling to provide the learning experience for a game.