Valve Index VR Review: Next-Gen VR Has Arrived - MMORPG.com

SBFord

Valve Index VR Review: Next-Gen VR Has Arrived - MMORPG.com

One of the most exciting hardware launches of the year is finally here: The Valve Index will begin shipping in mere days, and we’ve been lucky enough to spend the last two weeks testing it out for ourselves. While the competition seems content to focus on mobile solutions, Valve has been hard at work creating the enthusiast VR headset we’ve been waiting for. Did they succeed? Join us as we find out.

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Octagon7711

Slowly but surely VR is improving. I almost bought one the other day but after looking deeper into it, they still have work to do to cut down on the problems some people have been running into. But I've seen some impressive presentations.

SBFord

I look at the inside of that unit, the part that goes over the eyes, and think to myself, "Nope. Nope. Nope." I believe(d) my grandmother when she said not to get anything that close to your eyes, including TV.

Seriously, though, I'll just wait to see longitudinal studies on the effects of something that close to eyes and its effect on the brain before I sign on.

Lastly, I like seeing and hearing the world around me. There's immersion and there's too much immersion, in my opinion. I prefer the former.

Amathe

SBFord said:

my grandmother when she said not to get anything that close to your eyes ...

Trying to imagine what that conversation was about.

Octagon7711

SBFord said:

I look at the inside of that unit, the part that goes over the eyes, and think to myself, "Nope. Nope. Nope." I believe(d) my grandmother when she said not to get anything that close to your eyes, including TV.

Seriously, though, I'll just wait to see longitudinal studies on the effects of something that close to eyes and its effect on the brain before I sign on.

Lastly, I like seeing and hearing the world around me. There's immersion and there's too much immersion, in my opinion. I prefer the former.

Exactly, those things are throwing out radiation close to your eyes and frontal lobe, who knows what the long term effects may be.  I also would prefer AR as it overlaps reality instead of cutting it out.  Your grandmother sounds like a wise person.

Scot

The resolution is still not as good as my monitor, I may not have the spacial awareness you get from VR but the graphics are not as good.

GameByNight

Scot said:

The resolution is still not as good as my monitor, I may not have the spacial awareness you get from VR but the graphics are not as good.

You know, I am about as graphics conscious as they come, but the reality is *because* of that spatial awareness, the graphics don't matter as much. It sounds weird, but when you feel like you're there, even simply graphics can seem really cool.

Jakdstripper

For that price why not just get the 8k vr by Primax? Absolutely no screen door effect AND 200 degreese of vision...and to those worrying about the effects of vr on your eyes...getting old period will deteriorate your vision. Even with 0 screen time in your entire life your vision will go to shit as you get old. You have it for only a short while, that is all.

LunoTrickster34

SBFord said:

I look at the inside of that unit, the part that goes over the eyes, and think to myself, "Nope. Nope. Nope." I believe(d) my grandmother when she said not to get anything that close to your eyes, including TV.



Seriously, though, I'll just wait to see longitudinal studies on the effects of something that close to eyes and its effect on the brain before I sign on.



Lastly, I like seeing and hearing the world around me. There's immersion and there's too much immersion, in my opinion. I prefer the former.

The sitting close to your TV thing was a myth that used to be true due to radiation issues on really old TVs, but is no longer the case. All evidence in the last 50+ years says that sitting close to a TV does nothing except cause eye strain which is just a temporary effect and cannot cause any lasting damage.

In VR, the screens are perceived to be about as far away as most TVs, so it's actually healthier to be in VR than staring at a monitor.

You should be aware that the Valve Index doesn't have headphones on your ears so you can hear real world sound just fine if you want, and all they need to do is make use of the front-facing cameras in a software update and you will be able to both see and hear the real world at any time, so I'm sure the headset would be perfect for your needs.

LunoTrickster34

MisterZebub said:

VR seems doomed to end up in the same basement of nostalgia as 3D films and Aromarama.

How so? I think it's quite clear that VR is the true future of MMOs. I can't imagine there being many keyboard/mouse style MMOs in 15 years. Most companies will just move onto VR because it will be a more immersive and more social experience that allows for a lot more freedom in game design and is ultimately what most people really want out of MMOs: persistent and immersive worlds that can be explored and experienced with friends.

MMOman101

VR is not the near future of anything mass marketable.  I am willing to say VR at this point is dead.  Even with a "perfect" headset, it is dead.  If I have to sit down to play, VR is all but worthless, and I am not the only one to think so.  I know many people that bought head sets and sitting in a chair with an immersive screen does not make the experience good enough for the trade offs.  Cannot have a second source of entertainment on the background while playing, having a snack or a drink is much harder, getting up and dealing with anything is more difficult, talking to others, in the house is more difficult, and general fatigue while using it.

I have over 4500 finished square feet in my house and I don't have a spot to a VR setup that would allow me to move around freely.  Most homes, even big ones, are not setup for the space that VR really needs to shine.  The "treadmills" and a like a not good solutions.

The problem of VR adoption is far greater than a headset.  When we get all of the tools, good controllers, headsets, and the ability to move in one spot, while not costing a ton and not taking a bunch of space, or easy movement, it may have a chance at wider market appeal. 

The one thing the guitar hero fad should of taught everyone is people are willing to put up with space eating devices for only so long.  In short, VR is dead for the foreseeable future.  It will take a hell of a lot more than a new headset to change it.

LunoTrickster34

MMOman101 said:

VR is not the near future of anything mass marketable.  I am willing to say VR at this point is dead.  Even with a "perfect" headset, it is dead.  If I have to sit down to play, VR is all but worthless, and I am not the only one to think so.  I know many people that bought head sets and sitting in a chair with an immersive screen does not make the experience good enough for the trade offs.  Cannot have a second source of entertainment on the background while playing, having a snack or a drink is much harder, getting up and dealing with anything is more difficult, talking to others, in the house is more difficult, and general fatigue while using it.

I have over 4500 finished square feet in my house and I don't have a spot to a VR setup that would allow me to move around freely.  Most homes, even big ones, are not setup for the space that VR really needs to shine.  The "treadmills" and a like a not good solutions.

The problem of VR adoption is far greater than a headset.  When we get all of the tools, good controllers, headsets, and the ability to move in one spot, while not costing a ton and not taking a bunch of space, or easy movement, it may have a chance at wider market appeal. 

The one thing the guitar hero fad should of taught everyone is people are willing to put up with space eating devices for only so long.  In short, VR is dead for the foreseeable future.  It will take a hell of a lot more than a new headset to change it.

Most people in the VR community who play games that work well seated prefer to play them in VR. This includes games like RE7, Wipeout, Hellblade, Tetris Effect, Moss, Astro Bot, Elite Dangerous. Whatever information you have on people not liking it while seated, they are definitely a minority, and even if they don't like that today, they could enjoy it in the future with further improvements.

Astro Bot is the best VR game, and something that nearly every person, gamer or not would enjoy because of how magical it is, and importantly it's a seated game. I bet you'd love it to bits.

I often watch Netflix while playing Elite Dangerous in VR, so you can have a secondary or tertiary form of entertainment going on, or as many as you want.

You can eat and see food/drink or other people very easily with some of the upcoming VR headsets. If you mix AR and VR together that fixes those issues.

And you likely do have a spot in your house. All you need is 3 feet squared of space for active VR games, and standalones can be used away from your PC.

VR is actually growing with most newer headsets selling out all the time, with more and better games coming out than ever, and lots of investment still happening.

It seems that your ideas of VR are 100% backwards and in fairy tale land.

MMOman101

Yes, VR has had a terrible low saturation into the market and is all but dead as hardware because it is a great solution that everyone wants.  One of us is living in fairy tale land.  I suspect in 15 years you be proven wrong and me correct.  Now we just have to wait.

LunoTrickster34

MMOman101 said:

Yes, VR has had a terrible low saturation into the market and is all but dead as hardware because it is a great solution that everyone wants.  One of us is living in fairy tale land.  I suspect in 15 years you be proven wrong and me correct.  Now we just have to wait.

You realize that the low market saturation is meeting exceptions? Everyone that understands how tech adoption works knows that all technology mediums take 10+ years to establish. Smartphones took just over 10, and PCs took 20. VR may very well be somewhere inbetween. So if anything, I will likely be proven right in 15 years, when at least a billion people own a VR capable device.

Again, it's not dead because it's selling out all the time and the year-over-year sales are increasing and so is the retention rate and overall active userbase. You've already been proven wrong on all of your points. I mean how can someone seriously state that you can't multi-task entertainment in VR when it's actually the best medium for multi-tasking? Some people...

MMOman101

LunoTrickster34 said:

MMOman101 said:

Yes, VR has had a terrible low saturation into the market and is all but dead as hardware because it is a great solution that everyone wants.  One of us is living in fairy tale land.  I suspect in 15 years you be proven wrong and me correct.  Now we just have to wait.

You realize that the low market saturation is meeting exceptions? Everyone that understands how tech adoption works knows that all technology mediums take 10+ years to establish. Smartphones took just over 10, and PCs took 20. VR may very well be somewhere inbetween. So if anything, I will likely be proven right in 15 years, when at least a billion people own a VR capable device.

Again, it's not dead because it's selling out all the time and the year-over-year sales are increasing and so is the retention rate and overall active userbase. You've already been proven wrong on all of your points. I mean how can someone seriously state that you can't multi-task entertainment in VR when it's actually the best medium for multi-tasking? Some people...

The modern VR systems have been out for 5 years and less than 1% of the world wide gaming population owns a headset.  The problem with your analogy of PC and Smartphones is that people did want them.  They were just too cost prohibitive. 

VR is not anywhere near the initial price point of those devices and the infrastructure is setup for VR already outside of the devices.  A fraction of 1% of gamers bought a headset.  Of that fraction of "early adapters" many had the complaints that I listed. 

What you are saying though is 10 years from now ~70% of gamers will own VR systems, and then a company will start developing the a big box MMO and 5 years later most of us will be playing MMOs via VR. 

The trend data for VR is abysmal.  This with deep sale discounts and package bundles along with very wealthy companies spending a lot of money to push it. 

There were ~1 million total headsets sold in 2018.  There is ~5 million headsets in the market today.  We are not going from 5 million to 50 million in the next 5 years.  50 million is still a small fraction of the gaming population. 

VR is growing at ~10% a year.  We are suddenly going to see it jump from to ~100%, and then sustain that for years?

Here is an article for you:

https://arstechnica.com/gaming/2019/01/steam-survey-vr-headset-ownership-roughly-doubled-in-2018/

Even with "positive" sales we are talking about ~1% of steam users after 5 years, when the devices have seen long periods of discounts down to $200.  Steam users are on a platform that is pushing VR really hard and it still is ~1% of the market after 5 years. 

We are not even going to have to 15 years.  3-5 years from now VR will be out of the vernacular of the gaming community except for people who are pining for. 

LunoTrickster34

MMOman101 said:

LunoTrickster34 said:

MMOman101 said:

Yes, VR has had a terrible low saturation into the market and is all but dead as hardware because it is a great solution that everyone wants.  One of us is living in fairy tale land.  I suspect in 15 years you be proven wrong and me correct.  Now we just have to wait.

You realize that the low market saturation is meeting exceptions? Everyone that understands how tech adoption works knows that all technology mediums take 10+ years to establish. Smartphones took just over 10, and PCs took 20. VR may very well be somewhere inbetween. So if anything, I will likely be proven right in 15 years, when at least a billion people own a VR capable device.



Again, it's not dead because it's selling out all the time and the year-over-year sales are increasing and so is the retention rate and overall active userbase. You've already been proven wrong on all of your points. I mean how can someone seriously state that you can't multi-task entertainment in VR when it's actually the best medium for multi-tasking? Some people...

The modern VR systems have been out for 5 years and less than 1% of the world wide gaming population owns a headset.  The problem with your analogy of PC and Smartphones is that people did want them.  They were just too cost prohibitive. 

VR is not anywhere near the initial price point of those devices and the infrastructure is setup for VR already outside of the devices.  A fraction of 1% of gamers bought a headset.  Of that fraction of "early adapters" many had the complaints that I listed. 

What you are saying though is 10 years from now ~70% of gamers will own VR systems, and then a company will start developing the a big box MMO and 5 years later most of us will be playing MMOs via VR. 

The trend data for VR is abysmal.  This with deep sale discounts and package bundles along with very wealthy companies spending a lot of money to push it. 

There were ~1 million total headsets sold in 2018.  There is ~5 million headsets in the market today.  We are not going from 5 million to 50 million in the next 5 years.  50 million is still a small fraction of the gaming population. 

VR is growing at ~10% a year.  We are suddenly going to see it jump from to ~100%, and then sustain that for years?

Here is an article for you:

https://arstechnica.com/gaming/2019/01/steam-survey-vr-headset-ownership-roughly-doubled-in-2018/

Even with "positive" sales we are talking about ~1% of steam users after 5 years, when the devices have seen long periods of discounts down to $200.  Steam users are on a platform that is pushing VR really hard and it still is ~1% of the market after 5 years. 

We are not even going to have to 15 years.  3-5 years from now VR will be out of the vernacular of the gaming community except for people who are pining for. 

No, the modern VR systems have been out for just over 3 years or less in the case of PSVR. The two exceptions are Google Cardboard which is a clear dead-end and Gear VR which is also a dead-end as mobile VR has been largely been replaced by standalone VR. I'll remind you that PCs took 20 years. Go back to 3 years after the first true attempts at commercialized PCs and I can tell you quite confidently that even reaching a million sales on a product would have been miraculous.

People did not want PCs or Smartphones. Everyone in the 70s thought PCs wouldn't be used for much more than storing recipes on. It was thought of as a fad. Then came the Internet and it truly exploded, which by the way was considered a fad by the majority as well. Smartphones too, were considered a fad. There was no end to the death of smartphone articles before the iPhone launched.

VR is actually quite a bit cheaper than those devices. PCs were in the thousands and smartphones were in the late hundreds. VR is in the $200-400 range in most cases.

You say the trend data for VR is abysmal, and yet like I said, it's all within the expectations of manufacturers. No one gets to say it's abysmal except them. You've been reading (and clearly believing quite blindly) the media and analysts who have always over-hyped technology to impossible levels.

You say we are not going to go from 5 million to 50 million in the next 5 years, and yet that's exactly how exponential growth works which happened for all successful modernized technologies. If sales improve even 30% each year for 5 years, then it will surpass 50 million with absolute ease.

You are going to be so unbelievably wrong in 3-5 years, you'll be on the same level as the chairman of IBM: “I think there is a world market for about five computers.”

I guarantee it. I'd bet my life on it in an instant. All consoles will support VR at that point, and it will be nearing it's iPhone moment. But hey, when the majority of the MMO landscape in 15 years is VR-oriented, don't come crying to me. I did tell you so.

MMOman101

Ok, why are people not buying it now.  Why is production not increasing massively?  What is holding it back? 

Also the headsets sold ~1 units in 2018.

So even at 30% increase (units in millions)

2018:     1

1.3

1.69
2.197
2.8561
3.71293
4.826809
6.2748517
8.15730721
10.60449937
13.78584918
17.92160394
23.29808512
30.28751066
39.37376386
2033:      51.18589301

That is how math works.  Even at 30% growth it is still takes 14 years to get to 50 million units.  You would need ~300% increase in sales year over year to get to 50 million units in 5 years. 

Asm0deus

A little late on the review but better than none!
Next you have to review the reverb which from what I read in various game forums is the hands down best seated VR headset right now.

Also there some really interesting side hardware that can come into play which you guy should look into.

For example the walkover https://www.walkovr.com/

There also the cybershoes and captogloves which look kind of interesting.

People saying VR is just a passing fad are thinking it like the previous attempts but it not. Hey ho though some people still think and only use windows XP w/e floats your boat.

LunoTrickster34

MMOman101 said:

Ok, why are people not buying it now.  Why is production not increasing massively?  What is holding it back? 

Also the headsets sold ~1 units in 2018.

So even at 30% increase (units in millions)

2018:     1

1.3

1.69
2.197
2.8561
3.71293
4.826809
6.2748517
8.15730721
10.60449937
13.78584918
17.92160394
23.29808512
30.28751066
39.37376386
2033:      51.18589301

That is how math works.  Even at 30% growth it is still takes 14 years to get to 50 million units.  You would need ~300% increase in sales year over year to get to 50 million units in 5 years. 

Your numbers are way off. PSVR alone sold more than a million in 2018.

And there are many things holding it back because it's a 1st gen technology, which is exactly why expectations are in check and being met, because no one seriously expected it, or any product, to explode until gen 3 onwards.

Issues with VR currently: Low resolution, low field of view, eye strain, headaches, wired is still standard, is bulky and not comfortable for the mass consumer, can potentially be isolating, cannot track the full body, and has no killer app.

Most of those can be fixed in the next 3 years. We've now publicly seen plenty of 4000x4000 per eye or higher displays that would run easily with foveated rendering. We've seen prototype headsets with higher field of view without increasing size. We've seen prototype headsets that fix eye strain and headaches. We've solved wireless, and it's really just a matter of cost. The bulk may take a bit longer, but we already know that waveguide displays and pancake lenses get us to that Ready Player One visor. Isolation is fixed in certain enterprise headsets that will trickle down to consumers, just about every expression of the human body is seeing great progress in being tracked, and a killer app may very well be one of the 3 Valve games, one of which is releasing this year, and surprise surprise, it's very likely a Half Life game.

I don't think you realize just how fast VR is actually progressing behind the scenes, so the best way I can sum it up without directing you to a million sources is one gif: https://gfycat.com/briskhoarsekentrosaurus

Kniknax

It's like no one here has tried the Quest.

MMOman101

Let's say they sold 5 million units.

2018:          5
6.5
8.45
10.985
14.2805
18.56465
24.134045
31.3742585
40.78653605
2027:           53.02249687

You still take 6 years to get over 50 million.  That is horrible.  ~10 years to 50 million units means that all of the ones in the first half to three quarters are replaced. 

Here is your answer to my question:

Low resolution, low field of view, eye strain, headaches, wired is still standard, is bulky and not comfortable for the mass consumer, can potentially be isolating, cannot track the full body, and has no killer app.

Here is why what I said:

Cannot have a second source of entertainment on the background while playing, having a snack or a drink is much harder, getting up and dealing with anything is more difficult, talking to others in the house is more difficult, and general fatigue while using it.

The highlighted parts are basically the same.  Most of those are not solved with a new headset.  Full body moment is not. can potentially be isolating is not. 

The app is a chicken and egg issue to some extent. 

The rift was discounted to $200 for months and it came with the controllers, I almost bought one.  People I know who have them talked me out of it.  Sony was all but giving them away with new PS purchases.  If they were as sought after as you say, why the deep discounts? 

LunoTrickster34

MMOman101 said:

Let's say they sold 5 million units.

2018:          5
6.5
8.45
10.985
14.2805
18.56465
24.134045
31.3742585
40.78653605
2027:           53.02249687

You still take 6 years to get over 50 million.  That is
horrible.  ~10 years to 50 million units means that all of the ones in
the first half to three quarters are replaced. 

Here is your answer to my question:

Low resolution, low field of view, eye strain, headaches, wired is still
standard, is bulky and not comfortable for the mass consumer, can
potentially be isolating, cannot track the full body, and has no killer
app.

Here is why what I said:

Cannot have a second source of entertainment on the background while
playing, having a snack or a drink is much harder, getting up and
dealing with anything is more difficult, talking to others in the house
is more difficult, and general fatigue while using it.

The highlighted parts are basically the same.  Most of those are not solved with a new headset.  Full body moment is not. can
potentially be isolating is not. 

The app is a chicken and egg issue to some extent. 

The rift was discounted to $200 for months and it came with the controllers, I almost bought one.  People I know who have them talked me out of it.  Sony was all but giving them away with new PS purchases.  If they were as sought after as you say, why the deep discounts? 

I was actually talking about an installbase of 50 million, not 50 million units sold per year, which is pretty much the ball mark of the whole console gaming space.

I was also being conservative of the growth as it doesn't consider any breakthrough products. Smash hits like the iPhone disrupt the growth. Likewise, the first VR headset that fixes most of the issues I talked about in a standalone form factor for $400 is going to sell like hotcakes and be a big market disrupter, advancing the state of growth.

The highlighted parts are basically the same. Most of those are not solved with a new headset. Full body moment is not. can potentially be isolating is not.

Can you stop assuming things? Did I not present you with a gif that showed full body tracking? Unless you are talking about the strain of moving about which is fixed today by actually, just sitting down and playing that way. As for isolation, I already told you that it can be fixed with a new headset. Since you don't believe me, I'll prove it and hopefully you look at this gif: https://gfycat.com/achingrepentantleafhopper

If they were as sought after as you say, why the deep discounts?

Initially they launched at too high a price. They've fixed that and have had a pretty stable price range for a while now.

rounner

The extra base stations is a big deal, I've always had tracking issues.
More controller buttons is a big deal.
Don't care about screen resolution, there's no point in 8K at 120Hz for a few more graphics card generations.

MMOman101

I don't click on links, and I have no script in my browser so if you don't type it I don't see it. 

LunoTrickster34

MMOman101 said:

I don't click on links, and I have no script in my browser so if you don't type it I don't see it. 

Well the first one was a gif showing full body tracking via cameras, which means a new headset will enable it. The second is all about a headset that uses front-facing cameras to scan people in the real world and put them in VR. You get the full immersion of the tech and still are able to see anyone near you.

People tend to say isolation cannot be fixed, except it can be because VR and AR will combine.

MMOman101

I think you are without a hardcore fan of the tech and in the minority.  Even if there are 50 million active users in 5 years, that assumes a lot, it is still less than 20% of the gaming pop that would be reasonably assumed to use it. 

About 150 million ps4/xbox one sold, and about another 150 million PC gamers.

That 50 million is 16.66% market adoption after about almost a decade.  This also assumes all sales are new sales, not replacements, and all people who buy it stay active with it, and the extremely favorable 5 million headset sales for 2018, an over inflated number to begin with. 

So your own best case scenario is 20% of the market 5 years from now, after already being out for years.  All of the barriers to entry in VR, outside of the hardware being bad (if it is), are gone.  If we don't see massive growth, what will you will say next year.  If this hardware fixes the issues, we should see massive sales by then end of 2020 and very strong sales by the end of this year. 

Creeping along slowly only happens when there is serious barriers to entry and I don't see any for VR headsets, well outside of people not wanting VR headsets or issues that cannot be fixed by VR headsets.  Unless you want to tell me this new tech is garbage and that is what is holding the headset back.