Seems that Pantheon should be outsourced.

delete5230

Visionary Realms should oversee a development team that's capable of building characters and a world.

I will hand it to Brad and VR, they do have a creative mind. Their ideas are great !!
But like modern CEO's and management that oversee the "greedy intentions" of what has been developed for over ten years... Visionary Realms could do the same with controlling development of the good.

Development teams such as ArenaNet, Zenimax, Square Enix and Blizzard can make beautiful games where NPC's and characters fit. They can produce, just need to be told how to produce it.  They can even offer their own ideas once they learn Visionary Realms mindset.... It's all about the vision.

However the problem stands how do you pay them in a crowd funded game ?

Much like a King overseeing a Kingdom, they mold their territory as they see fit.  After all that's what management does.



I'll be honest and blunt, 
Unless their is a huge secret, this game is AT LEAST five years away and with problems with the final product..... The only way I'm wrong is if their is a well kept secret.  I don't think I'm alone in this. 

Slapshot1188

18 months

delete5230

Slapshot1188 said:

18 months

Much longer, unless you want a Vanguard grade game. 

Xarko

They're/There/Their

Kyleran

Is it Monday already? Must be if there's a new @delete5230 "Pantheon is Doomed" thread in the forums. (Friday topics usually cover "MMORPGs are too easy /Doomed")  

I do agree, seems like there is no real date for delivery and discernable progress has been quite slow.

18 months isn't even a good joke response for this game considering how little we've seen to date.

Perhaps it is all a big secret, and everything will all be unveiled in a grand opening in the next few years, but not going to hold my breath for it.

Outsourcing is rarely the answer, unless one can afford to pay a competent studio to do the work, costing big money which is something this indie studio (nor most others) do not have tons of to toss around. 

Amathe

Waiting on Pantheon with @delete5230 is like driving to Disney with a small child.

Are we there yet?

Are we there yet?

Sovrath

delete5230 said:

dom, they mold their territory as they see fit.  After all that's what management does.



I'll be honest and blunt, 
Unless their is a huge secret, this game is AT LEAST five years away and with problems with the final product..... The only way I'm wrong is if their is a well kept secret.  I don't think I'm alone in this. 

First of all, you are not on the team so you have no idea how long it is away.

5 years, 2 years, 8 years etc. You dont' know. As far as we know you've also never managed a development team.

But sure let's say another two years. Outsourcing development isn't going to make this game come any faster it's just going to make it so its' different people working on the game.

I'm pretty sure the people at Pantheon want to work on this game so this is their project. They'll get it done when they get it done.

Like I said before, just walk away, do something else and when it's done it will be done. And if it's not done then you've not invested too much into it.

bentrim

This is the ...unfortunate...path we have put ourselves on, by buying into "investing" and KS, to fund these business SCAMS. Yes I called them SCAMS, because they...1. Have No pure plan or path for release. 2. Are NOT funded (this is supposed to be a business model). And 3. Have ABSOLUTELY no regulation or laws limiting what they can say or do. So what you have is NOTHING but a mere idea that someone has come up with to either, collect money and distribute it wherever they see fit, or put it in their pocket....(same place BTW). The ONLY answer to fix this is to NO LONGER give these "scammers" ANY funding until there is an ACTUAL product that can be had. And PLEASE, STOP with the "these things take time" BULLSHIT, because ANY GOOD business model has a plan and a time frame......JUST SAY NO!!!!!!!!! 

Sovrath

bentrim said:

This is the ...unfortunate...path we have put ourselves on, by buying into "investing" and KS, to fund these business SCAMS. Yes I called them SCAMS, because they...1. Have No pure plan or path for release. 2. Are NOT funded (this is supposed to be a business model). And 3. Have ABSOLUTELY no regulation or laws limiting what they can say or do. So what you have is NOTHING but a mere idea that someone has come up with to either, collect money and distribute it wherever they see fit, or put it in their pocket....(same place BTW). The ONLY answer to fix this is to NO LONGER give these "scammers" ANY funding until there is an ACTUAL product that can be had. And PLEASE, STOP with the "these things take time" BULLSHIT, because ANY GOOD business model has a plan and a time frame......JUST SAY NO!!!!!!!!! 

Actually, I have a very good track record for kickstarter projects so maybe people just need to be a bit more savvy about where they throw their money.

Also, if one is dead set on getting "something" for their money as opposed to giving money in the correct spirit of kickstarter (or whatever platform they use) then "don't."

Just don't.

bentrim

Actually, I have a very good track record for kickstarter projects so maybe people just need to be a bit more savvy about where they throw their money.

Also, if one is dead set on getting "something" for their money as opposed to giving money in the correct spirit of kickstarter (or whatever platform they use) then "don't."

Just don't.

Read more at https://forums.mmorpg.com/discussion/482438/seems-that-pantheon-should-be-outsourced#IUyXpUtjikSALUwe.99               And Sovrath, that is EXACTLY what I posted. People who do ACTUALLY WANT SOMETHING FOR THEIR MONEY...ahhmmmm...not sure who does NOT (and please I will take all you want to give me)...but I digress...should NOT fund these non-regulated or non governed entities because there ARE NO RULES...so you have just reemphasized my point for me....thanks :-)

Utinni

"ESTIMATED DELIVERY  Jan 2017"

Soon guys!!

gervaise1

The management effort involved in outsourcing stuff - whilst different - is generally more complicated. For example you will have less internal team management but more contractual and financial management and the need for more "accurate" project management. And if your cash flow is uncertain that will also add a host of added complications.

Utinni

DMKano said:

Name a more iconic duo

Delete5230 and ramblings about Pantheon

Wizardry and comparing every game to FF11

moshra

Utinni said:

DMKano said:

Name a more iconic duo

Delete5230 and ramblings about Pantheon

Wizardry and comparing every game to FF11

Or UT99

Tokken

I'm still wondering if this old school game idea / design will be successful in the modern gaming community.  I'm certainly interested.....

moshra

DMKano said:

Name a more iconic duo

Delete5230 and ramblings about Pantheon

Mars Orbital and good bye threads

Sovrath

bentrim said:

Actually, I have a very good track record for kickstarter projects so maybe people just need to be a bit more savvy about where they throw their money.

Also, if one is dead set on getting "something" for their money as opposed to giving money in the correct spirit of kickstarter (or whatever platform they use) then "don't."

Just don't.

Read more at https://forums.mmorpg.com/discussion/482438/seems-that-pantheon-should-be-outsourced#IUyXpUtjikSALUwe.99               And Sovrath, that is EXACTLY what I posted. People who do ACTUALLY WANT SOMETHING FOR THEIR MONEY...ahhmmmm...not sure who does NOT (and please I will take all you want to give me)...but I digress...should NOT fund these non-regulated or non governed entities because there ARE NO RULES...so you have just reemphasized my point for me....thanks :-)

Keep in mind I'm not saying people shouldn't fund these things. I'm saying that if people don't understand the spirit of what kickstarter is trying to do and don't understand that you are just "voting with your wallet and hoping for the best" then they shouldn't.

I personally don't care that it's unregulated. It's pretty straightforward. You want to help to get something off the ground? Be a part of it and vote with your wallet.

Pick better projects. Still doesnt' guarantee that they will be launched but that's not the point. You can't guarantee these things.

SavageHorizon

Nope it should not, why would the community want the game to be turned into something completely different from the original consept.

No thanks. 

Mendel

I'm one voice (maybe the only voice) that says Brad is good at one specific game design, but maybe that's it.  EQ1 and Vanguard and Pantheon are all the product of Brad's imagination and are (and appear to be) eerily similar.  Too similar, maybe.  These products are good, but aren't advancing the genre (and our expectations) down the line.  This seems to be Brad's comfort zone, and while many are eagerly anticipating Pantheon, there may be many who will simply say "been there, done that" and move along.  Six month and one year retention rates will determine that.

When I first heard of Pantheon and Brad's involvement, I hoped that it was something to push, pull or cajole the genre past the basic concepts of combat and crafting.  I was disappointed to learn that this simply didn't seem to be the case.  I feel Pantheon would have been perfect if it delivered in the 2004-2007 time frame.  It could have competed with WoW and other games of that generation in molding expectations for future games.  With a 2004-2007 release date, I feel certain that Pantheon would have been a major success.  I'm less certain with a 2020-2023 release date.

Amathe

DMKano said:

Name a more iconic duo

Delete5230 and ramblings about Pantheon

@Gdemami and LOL. 

Nanfoodle

Sovrath said:

delete5230 said:

dom, they mold their territory as they see fit.  After all that's what management does.



I'll be honest and blunt, 
Unless their is a huge secret, this game is AT LEAST five years away and with problems with the final product..... The only way I'm wrong is if their is a well kept secret.  I don't think I'm alone in this. 

First of all, you are not on the team so you have no idea how long it is away.

5 years, 2 years, 8 years etc. You dont' know. As far as we know you've also never managed a development team.

But sure let's say another two years. Outsourcing development isn't going to make this game come any faster it's just going to make it so its' different people working on the game.

I'm pretty sure the people at Pantheon want to work on this game so this is their project. They'll get it done when they get it done.

Like I said before, just walk away, do something else and when it's done it will be done. And if it's not done then you've not invested too much into it.

Over 20 years of MMOing and one thing I have learned. Reading every update and counting the week till a MMO will come out will make it take forever. Watched pot and all. Im in no rush, Im having fun playing other games. When Pantheon comes out, I will be there. 

SavageHorizon

Mendel said:

I'm one voice (maybe the only voice) that says Brad is good at one specific game design, but maybe that's it.  EQ1 and Vanguard and Pantheon are all the product of Brad's imagination and are (and appear to be) eerily similar.  Too similar, maybe.  These products are good, but aren't advancing the genre (and our expectations) down the line.  This seems to be Brad's comfort zone, and while many are eagerly anticipating Pantheon, there may be many who will simply say "been there, done that" and move along.  Six month and one year retention rates will determine that.

When I first heard of Pantheon and Brad's involvement, I hoped that it was something to push, pull or cajole the genre past the basic concepts of combat and crafting.  I was disappointed to learn that this simply didn't seem to be the case.  I feel Pantheon would have been perfect if it delivered in the 2004-2007 time frame.  It could have competed with WoW and other games of that generation in molding expectations for future games.  With a 2004-2007 release date, I feel certain that Pantheon would have been a major success.  I'm less certain with a 2020-2023 release date.

................................................................ 

It doesn't want to compete with WOW and these other games. Have you learned anything over the last 10 + years of MMO's trying to compete with WOW and other leading mmo's ffs. 

It will be niche and the devs have never said anything different. You really don't have to play it or wait around for a release so your point is mute. 

Think you got me mixed up. 

I think you meant Vanguard, right? 

Mendel

SavageHorizon said:

Mendel said:

I'm one voice (maybe the only voice) that says Brad is good at one specific game design, but maybe that's it.  EQ1 and Vanguard and Pantheon are all the product of Brad's imagination and are (and appear to be) eerily similar.  Too similar, maybe.  These products are good, but aren't advancing the genre (and our expectations) down the line.  This seems to be Brad's comfort zone, and while many are eagerly anticipating Pantheon, there may be many who will simply say "been there, done that" and move along.  Six month and one year retention rates will determine that.

When I first heard of Pantheon and Brad's involvement, I hoped that it was something to push, pull or cajole the genre past the basic concepts of combat and crafting.  I was disappointed to learn that this simply didn't seem to be the case.  I feel Pantheon would have been perfect if it delivered in the 2004-2007 time frame.  It could have competed with WoW and other games of that generation in molding expectations for future games.  With a 2004-2007 release date, I feel certain that Pantheon would have been a major success.  I'm less certain with a 2020-2023 release date.

................................................................ 

It doesn't want to compete with WOW and these other games. Have you learned anything over the last 10 + years of MMO's trying to compete with WOW and other leading mmo's ffs. 

It will be niche and the devs have never said anything different. You really don't have to play it or wait around for a release so your point is mute. 

Think you got me mixed up. 

I think you meant Vanguard, right? 

Nope.  Pantheon.  I get the impression that Pantheon is the Vanguard that Brad wished he had made.

Rusque

DMKano said:

Name a more iconic duo

Delete5230 and ramblings about Pantheon

Erillion and Star Citizen?

Albatroes

Nanfoodle said:

Sovrath said:

delete5230 said:

dom, they mold their territory as they see fit.  After all that's what management does.



I'll be honest and blunt, 
Unless their is a huge secret, this game is AT LEAST five years away and with problems with the final product..... The only way I'm wrong is if their is a well kept secret.  I don't think I'm alone in this. 

First of all, you are not on the team so you have no idea how long it is away.

5 years, 2 years, 8 years etc. You dont' know. As far as we know you've also never managed a development team.

But sure let's say another two years. Outsourcing development isn't going to make this game come any faster it's just going to make it so its' different people working on the game.

I'm pretty sure the people at Pantheon want to work on this game so this is their project. They'll get it done when they get it done.

Like I said before, just walk away, do something else and when it's done it will be done. And if it's not done then you've not invested too much into it.

Over 20 years of MMOing and one thing I have learned. Reading every update and counting the week till a MMO will come out will make it take forever. Watched pot and all. Im in no rush, Im having fun playing other games. When Pantheon comes out, I will be there. 

Unfortunately, with today's market, that isn't the average person that gets involved with the backing of stuff like this. Too many people who back stuff in KS or other places tend to think its about giving and getting, minus the risk.

Anyone who is somewhat successful in terms of stocks is about calculating what you are willing to lose, because you will, even if its only once. This is where investing getting a bit awkward for the average person because someone who is again somewhat successful in stocks tends to play a spread (investing in multiple things) while the average person will invest on emotion. Said average person also does not realize that there is a lot things being marketed towards them with that knowledge. Someone like Sovrath might look into a project and notice little things off like phrasing or other aspects involved in attention to detail, making me avoid the project, whereas again the average one looks at the emotion and invests.

As for Pantheon, although I'm hopefully, I feel like Brad has always suffered from at least one major problem when it came to game design (and honestly most KS mmorpgs look like they are having the same issue), which is how much content is enough to develop. Everyone who is serious about developing a mmorpg needs to be honest with the fact that even if it makes it to the 'release,' 1) updates will be slow (I'd say 2 'sizeable updates a year would be realistic, when you take into account the 2nd point) and 2) a good portion of a team's starting staff will be cut, which isn't bad depending on what they have outsourced/contracted and to who. If Brad plays it smart and makes community based content, updates wont really be an issue. I know people meme on Wizardry for talking about FFXI alot but for people who actually played every aspect of that game, it was very well designed with each new expansion further filling out the game instead of just funneling people from hub to hub. Old content was just as relevant as new content (at least until Abyssea, then it got weird). I'd say the only real games that somewhat follow this approach are ESO/GW2/AA (to my knowledge, could be others). Even though I dont feel they properly executed in certain ways, the fact remains that a lot of the stuff that was at the start of those games, has still remained relevant even to this day.

This brings us to the point of 'success and how I feel this team should approach it. Anyone who things this game will be a sleeper hit is an idiot, that's the unfortunate truth. There's too much out there and too much on the way; however, if they can snag a loyal following, that should be good enough. Hell even someone as popular as Ninja was willing to give SE up to a million dollars if they did FFXI classic servers given that was a game he played a lot of before he got 'famous.' That's why you want loyalty, because you don't really know who exactly your old school gamers are and how much influence they have. Sure its a double-edge sword because it spikes traffic followed by a steep decline (which everyone is expecting will happen to wow classic) but you're also going to weed out those that want to stay (which again, people are expecting will happen to wow classic). I think one of the devs of DE from Warframe (might've been Steve) said it best, "We're not trying to turn the market on its head. We're just trying to make a place for ourselves" (paraphrased). If more devs take that approach, they will be 'successful because not only are they getting a loyal following but more importantly, they're making a game they actually want to.

Tl;dr: If you're smart and patient, you'll eventually get what you want.

Xarko

Rusque said:

DMKano said:

Name a more iconic duo

Delete5230 and ramblings about Pantheon

Erillion and Star Citizen?

Don't forget about the pig. I know he said duo, but pig and rabbit are inseparable citizens at this point.