Credit to delete, he does spur conversation. Often at his expense though, lol.
I don't believe outsourcing will make any justifiable difference. In the end, people are going to get what they paid for eventually. Be that an incomplete game tied together with an apology, a decent MMO to kill some time on before the next hype train or perhaps the greatest MMORPG created to date.
Personally, I'm getting my entertainment from reading these threads every so often :P
dom, they mold their territory as they see fit. After all that's what management does.
I'll be honest and blunt, Unless their is a huge secret, this game is AT LEAST five years away and with problems with the final product..... The only way I'm wrong is if their is a well kept secret. I don't think I'm alone in this.
First of all, you are not on the team so you have no idea how long it is away.
5 years, 2 years, 8 years etc. You dont' know. As far as we know you've also never managed a development team.
But sure let's say another two years. Outsourcing development isn't going to make this game come any faster it's just going to make it so its' different people working on the game.
I'm pretty sure the people at Pantheon want to work on this game so this is their project. They'll get it done when they get it done.
Like I said before, just walk away, do something else and when it's done it will be done. And if it's not done then you've not invested too much into it.
Over 20 years of MMOing and one thing I have learned. Reading every update and counting the week till a MMO will come out will make it take forever. Watched pot and all. Im in no rush, Im having fun playing other games. When Pantheon comes out, I will be there.
Unfortunately, with today's market, that isn't the average person that gets involved with the backing of stuff like this. Too many people who back stuff in KS or other places tend to think its about giving and getting, minus the risk.
Anyone who is somewhat successful in terms of stocks is about calculating what you are willing to lose, because you will, even if its only once. This is where investing getting a bit awkward for the average person because someone who is again somewhat successful in stocks tends to play a spread (investing in multiple things) while the average person will invest on emotion. Said average person also does not realize that there is a lot things being marketed towards them with that knowledge. Someone like Sovrath might look into a project and notice little things off like phrasing or other aspects involved in attention to detail, making me avoid the project, whereas again the average one looks at the emotion and invests.
As for Pantheon, although I'm hopefully, I feel like Brad has always suffered from at least one major problem when it came to game design (and honestly most KS mmorpgs look like they are having the same issue), which is how much content is enough to develop. Everyone who is serious about developing a mmorpg needs to be honest with the fact that even if it makes it to the 'release,' 1) updates will be slow (I'd say 2 'sizeable updates a year would be realistic, when you take into account the 2nd point) and 2) a good portion of a team's starting staff will be cut, which isn't bad depending on what they have outsourced/contracted and to who. If Brad plays it smart and makes community based content, updates wont really be an issue. I know people meme on Wizardry for talking about FFXI alot but for people who actually played every aspect of that game, it was very well designed with each new expansion further filling out the game instead of just funneling people from hub to hub. Old content was just as relevant as new content (at least until Abyssea, then it got weird). I'd say the only real games that somewhat follow this approach are ESO/GW2/AA (to my knowledge, could be others). Even though I dont feel they properly executed in certain ways, the fact remains that a lot of the stuff that was at the start of those games, has still remained relevant even to this day.
This brings us to the point of 'success and how I feel this team should approach it. Anyone who things this game will be a sleeper hit is an idiot, that's the unfortunate truth. There's too much out there and too much on the way; however, if they can snag a loyal following, that should be good enough. Hell even someone as popular as Ninja was willing to give SE up to a million dollars if they did FFXI classic servers given that was a game he played a lot of before he got 'famous.' That's why you want loyalty, because you don't really know who exactly your old school gamers are and how much influence they have. Sure its a double-edge sword because it spikes traffic followed by a steep decline (which everyone is expecting will happen to wow classic) but you're also going to weed out those that want to stay (which again, people are expecting will happen to wow classic). I think one of the devs of DE from Warframe (might've been Steve) said it best, "We're not trying to turn the market on its head. We're just trying to make a place for ourselves" (paraphrased). If more devs take that approach, they will be 'successful because not only are they getting a loyal following but more importantly, they're making a game they actually want to.
Tl;dr: If you're smart and patient, you'll eventually get what you want.
Why do people use the illustration of stocks when they talk about backing a game? In no way are the similar. I chucked $200 bucks at a game...
1. Because thats what I can afford to do 2. It got me 4 copies to a game I will one day play, so there is value there 3. I know giving them money gives them a proof of concept and get them more backing. So there is a greater chance I will get to play one day
If they dont cross that line with a finished product, it will be sad but it wont change my life. The "market as it is" as you put it. Is just fine. I remember when there was just one MMO to play. I remember getting a second MMO and it took 3/4 of my life trying to play both. Now there is so much content in 1 MMO, with family life and a life. I cant keep up to one MMO let alone all the great MMOs out doing well.
We are just fine, the ship is not sinking and more MMOs are coming out this year.
I'm one voice (maybe the only voice) that says Brad is good at one specific game design, but maybe that's it. EQ1 and Vanguard and Pantheon are all the product of Brad's imagination and are (and appear to be) eerily similar. Too similar, maybe. These products are good, but aren't advancing the genre (and our expectations) down the line. This seems to be Brad's comfort zone, and while many are eagerly anticipating Pantheon, there may be many who will simply say "been there, done that" and move along. Six month and one year retention rates will determine that.
When I first heard of Pantheon and Brad's involvement, I hoped that it was something to push, pull or cajole the genre past the basic concepts of combat and crafting. I was disappointed to learn that this simply didn't seem to be the case. I feel Pantheon would have been perfect if it delivered in the 2004-2007 time frame. It could have competed with WoW and other games of that generation in molding expectations for future games. With a 2004-2007 release date, I feel certain that Pantheon would have been a major success. I'm less certain with a 2020-2023 release date.
It is more likely that this genre is what Brad enjoys. It is his passion. I have been playing EQ1 off and on since release and will continue to do so, no matter what else comes out. It is what I enjoy.
In a semi related note, people just need to over it. The game will come (or not) when it gets here.
To me, giving money to a game company is more like going out on a date. You buy someone a meal and a few drinks. Maybe this leads to romance. Maybe it leads to disappointment. Wherever it leads, you don't own anything.
EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests
To me, giving money to a game company is more like going out on a date. You buy someone a meal and a few drinks. Maybe this leads to romance. Maybe it leads to disappointment. Wherever it leads, you don't own anything.
Even if we all get what we want from the date....I'm sure it still ends in disappointment.
All this talking about Pantheon and Kickstarter, while forgetting that Pantheon didn’t get any money from KS (as it failed), and most of the funding comes from private investment.
Once the blueprint zone is ready, all they have to do is World building, so development will be much faster once all the features are in place.
All this talking about Pantheon and Kickstarter, while forgetting that Pantheon didn’t get any money from KS (as it failed), and most of the funding comes from private investment.
Once the blueprint zone is ready, all they have to do is World building, so development will be much faster once all the features are in place.
still been in development since 2014 with hardly anything to show.
Someone like Sovrath might look into a project and notice little things off like phrasing or other aspects involved in attention to detail, making me avoid the project, whereas again the average one looks at the emotion and invests.
That's kind of it. I see how it's presented, see how they "say things."
I look at what they have done previously and what they have done on the project they want to kickstart.
I didn't give money to Pantheon until they showed significant progress. And then I threw them $100. As far as I'm concerned that money is gone. If they can launch with that help (among others) then great. if not then no worries.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
Why do people use the illustration of stocks when they talk about backing a game? In no way are the similar. I chucked $200 bucks at a game...
Because he's not directly equating the giving money to a game to buying "stocks." He's talking about calculating risk and then giving money to a variety of projects that may all come through.
So how to determine where to put money.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
Waiting on Pantheon with @delete5230 is like driving to Disney with a small child.
Are we there yet?
Are we there yet?
Maybe
the small child is justified if your family is driving from Washington state to
Florida. And that’s driving with a father that’s obsessed with driving the
minimum speed limit and stopping to read the placard of every statue and
monument along the way…..Understand the father is a well known Brain
Surgeon.
So thanks, you helped me to exactly make my point !
Waiting on Pantheon with @delete5230 is like driving to Disney with a small child.
Are we there yet?
Are we there yet?
Maybe
the small child is justified if your family is driving from Washington state to
Florida. And that’s driving with a father that’s obsessed with driving the
minimum speed limit and stopping to read the placard of every statue and
monument along the way…..Understand the father is a well known Brain
Surgeon.
Hey my parents used to do that but instead of going to flordia we were driving to PA or RI as my dad was in the military and we started from CA
Just had to stop and see the "worlds largest thermometer" when driving through Death Valley from Vegas to LA.
Stopped to get a DQ Blizzard there which was only time they wouldn't turn it upside down as they explained it would just plop down on the counter.
Probably the same for Pantheon; if they showed you the insides it's probably all fluid like and runny right now....like snot.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I'm a big fan of this game. Follow it all the time and have backed at a good amount.
I'm hoping the game releases soon, but I also know that it won't. If you've followed this game at all you know they have only complete one of the major zones areas and it's not fully fleshed out yet.
This game is at least 2 years away from commercial release.
Visionary Realms should oversee a development team that's capable of building characters and a world.
I will hand it to Brad and VR, they do have a creative mind. Their ideas are great !! But like modern CEO's and management that oversee the "greedy intentions" of what has been developed for over ten years... Visionary Realms could do the same with controlling development of the good.
Development teams such as ArenaNet, Zenimax, Square Enix and Blizzard can make beautiful games where NPC's and characters fit. They can produce, just need to be told how to produce it. They can even offer their own ideas once they learn Visionary Realms mindset.... It's all about the vision.
However the problem stands how do you pay them in a crowd funded game ?
Much like a King overseeing a Kingdom, they mold their territory as they see fit. After all that's what management does.
I'll be honest and blunt, Unless their is a huge secret, this game is AT LEAST five years away and with problems with the final product..... The only way I'm wrong is if their is a well kept secret. I don't think I'm alone in this.
Please, explain to me how you came up with the number of AT LEAST five years? I'd love to hear your expert opinion and reasons for why its AT LEAST five years away.
Visionary Realms should oversee a development team that's capable of building characters and a world.
I will hand it to Brad and VR, they do have a creative mind. Their ideas are great !! But like modern CEO's and management that oversee the "greedy intentions" of what has been developed for over ten years... Visionary Realms could do the same with controlling development of the good.
Development teams such as ArenaNet, Zenimax, Square Enix and Blizzard can make beautiful games where NPC's and characters fit. They can produce, just need to be told how to produce it. They can even offer their own ideas once they learn Visionary Realms mindset.... It's all about the vision.
However the problem stands how do you pay them in a crowd funded game ?
Much like a King overseeing a Kingdom, they mold their territory as they see fit. After all that's what management does.
I'll be honest and blunt, Unless their is a huge secret, this game is AT LEAST five years away and with problems with the final product..... The only way I'm wrong is if their is a well kept secret. I don't think I'm alone in this.
Please, explain to me how you came up with the number of AT LEAST five years? I'd love to hear your expert opinion and reasons for why its AT LEAST five years away.
Some of us know people working on the project. Unless something radically changes it will be 5 years. Head on over to FoH website if you need further information.
I'm one voice (maybe the only voice) that says Brad is good at one specific game design, but maybe that's it. EQ1 and Vanguard and Pantheon are all the product of Brad's imagination and are (and appear to be) eerily similar. Too similar, maybe. These products are good, but aren't advancing the genre (and our expectations) down the line. This seems to be Brad's comfort zone, and while many are eagerly anticipating Pantheon, there may be many who will simply say "been there, done that" and move along. Six month and one year retention rates will determine that.
When I first heard of Pantheon and Brad's involvement, I hoped that it was something to push, pull or cajole the genre past the basic concepts of combat and crafting. I was disappointed to learn that this simply didn't seem to be the case. I feel Pantheon would have been perfect if it delivered in the 2004-2007 time frame. It could have competed with WoW and other games of that generation in molding expectations for future games. With a 2004-2007 release date, I feel certain that Pantheon would have been a major success. I'm less certain with a 2020-2023 release date.
The "been there, done that" in this case is the attraction. This particular "been there, done that" was coming along just fine. Instead of maturing and getting more advanced it simply stopped. Now we only have hollow shells of what should have gotten better, adding a lot of greed into the mix.
The object here in a first generation game is SELF IMPROVEMENT. Make yourself better how you see fit in an extremely harsh environment so you can play with others doing the same.
Co-operation with others that SELF IMPROVED to tackle a world. To find things in a world that cant be reached alone. In fact the best modern websites can't even help is it's hard to reach.
THIS IS NEW !!!! How is it new ?..... Because Games like EQ1 is so old and dated it's crap.
First generation mmorpgs could be a millennial's playground, where as EQ1 would be an untouchable mess to them.... It's NEW !
The vision is a great vision..... Sadly I'm very concerned by it's development
All this talking about Pantheon and Kickstarter, while forgetting that Pantheon didn’t get any money from KS (as it failed), and most of the funding comes from private investment.
Once the blueprint zone is ready, all they have to do is World building, so development will be much faster once all the features are in place.
still been in development since 2014 with hardly anything to show.
They started development mid 2015, from scratch. After the failed KS campaign, they took a year off to find other type of funds.
What they showed for the KS campaign was a Unity demo, that’s why it failed. Real development starter much later than the KS debacle.
Pantheon is the indie game which showed the most so far, once the blueprint zone is done, the rest of the game is just world building, which is much faster. It will be like creating a big expansion pack.
Realistically we are talking late 2020, early 2021. Six years development is acceptable for an indie, considering AAA MMOs take around 5 years of development.
All this talking about Pantheon and Kickstarter, while forgetting that Pantheon didn’t get any money from KS (as it failed), and most of the funding comes from private investment.
Once the blueprint zone is ready, all they have to do is World building, so development will be much faster once all the features are in place.
still been in development since 2014 with hardly anything to show.
They started development mid 2015, from scratch. After the failed KS campaign, they took a year off to find other type of funds.
What they showed for the KS campaign was a Unity demo, that’s why it failed. Real development starter much later than the KS debacle.
Pantheon is the indie game which showed the most so far, once the blueprint zone is done, the rest of the game is just world building, which is much faster. It will be like creating a big expansion pack.
Realistically we are talking late 2020, early 2021. Six years development is acceptable for an indie, considering AAA MMOs take around 5 years of development.
I'll take that bet, wont release a day before 2022.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
All this talking about Pantheon and Kickstarter, while forgetting that Pantheon didn’t get any money from KS (as it failed), and most of the funding comes from private investment.
Once the blueprint zone is ready, all they have to do is World building, so development will be much faster once all the features are in place.
still been in development since 2014 with hardly anything to show.
They started development mid 2015, from scratch. After the failed KS campaign, they took a year off to find other type of funds.
What they showed for the KS campaign was a Unity demo, that’s why it failed. Real development starter much later than the KS debacle.
Pantheon is the indie game which showed the most so far, once the blueprint zone is done, the rest of the game is just world building, which is much faster. It will be like creating a big expansion pack.
Realistically we are talking late 2020, early 2021. Six years development is acceptable for an indie, considering AAA MMOs take around 5 years of development.
I'll take that bet, wont release a day before 2022.
Such fun.
Considering there are MMOs that started development much earlier than Pantheon and showed much less, if it releases in 2022, it will be still an achievement, as the others will likely release in 2025.
Anyway, I intend to play Vanilla WoW for a good couple of years, so Pantheon releasing in 2022 is perfect timing.
The suggestion that there is an over obsession about graphics is arrant nonsense.
What I suspect there might be, however, is a surplusage of analysis and conversation. I'll bet, for example, a ton of time went into discussions of whether elves should be paladins. That, and 10,000 things like that, probably slows down the pace.
But hey, that's the secret sauce. If you want a game that loves and cares about fantasy rpg details, you have to allow them that - even if it means we wait longer.
EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests
To take it a step further: Wizardry and "Every Game That Isn't FFXI Is/Was/Will Be Terrible".
On topic, they're working on it. They're making clear progress and the game is looking better every time they show it. No one outside of VR knows how far along they are or how their progress is moving along, however much they might want to pretend otherwise. OP included.
Some people are determined to never be satisfied with anything.
Months will go by faster than folks realize, and before you know it, the game will be available to everyone, and then the people complaining now that "it's taking too long!" can start complaining that "they should have spent more time on it!".
All this talking about Pantheon and Kickstarter, while forgetting that Pantheon didn’t get any money from KS (as it failed), and most of the funding comes from private investment.
Once the blueprint zone is ready, all they have to do is World building, so development will be much faster once all the features are in place.
still been in development since 2014 with hardly anything to show.
They started development mid 2015, from scratch. After the failed KS campaign, they took a year off to find other type of funds.
What they showed for the KS campaign was a Unity demo, that’s why it failed. Real development starter much later than the KS debacle.
Pantheon is the indie game which showed the most so far, once the blueprint zone is done, the rest of the game is just world building, which is much faster. It will be like creating a big expansion pack.
Realistically we are talking late 2020, early 2021. Six years development is acceptable for an indie, considering AAA MMOs take around 5 years of development.
I'll take that bet, wont release a day before 2022.
Such fun.
Good bet to take. There is zero reason these games should take so long to release. It is unfocused direction that allows them to wander on and on past their own announced release dates time after time after time. Feature creep is the biggest concern (and lack of focus) Just build the base world and mobs and skills and/or classes and release while you continue to work on it. People forget how long some games have taken to release from development start. Even EQ only took a couple of years with a beta after a year. Work smarter.
Hey wait a minute, the Edgelord is giving LOLs to real game developers now, what's up with that?
Oh I see, you slightly agreed with me...explains everything, carry on.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Comments
I don't believe outsourcing will make any justifiable difference. In the end, people are going to get what they paid for eventually. Be that an incomplete game tied together with an apology, a decent MMO to kill some time on before the next hype train or perhaps the greatest MMORPG created to date.
Personally, I'm getting my entertainment from reading these threads every so often :P
1. Because thats what I can afford to do
2. It got me 4 copies to a game I will one day play, so there is value there
3. I know giving them money gives them a proof of concept and get them more backing. So there is a greater chance I will get to play one day
If they dont cross that line with a finished product, it will be sad but it wont change my life. The "market as it is" as you put it. Is just fine. I remember when there was just one MMO to play. I remember getting a second MMO and it took 3/4 of my life trying to play both. Now there is so much content in 1 MMO, with family life and a life. I cant keep up to one MMO let alone all the great MMOs out doing well.
We are just fine, the ship is not sinking and more MMOs are coming out this year.
EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests
Gut Out!
What, me worry?
Once the blueprint zone is ready, all they have to do is World building, so development will be much faster once all the features are in place.
BC and TSW (I hope not..)
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
So thanks, you helped me to exactly make my point !
Stopped to get a DQ Blizzard there which was only time they wouldn't turn it upside down as they explained it would just plop down on the counter.
Probably the same for Pantheon; if they showed you the insides it's probably all fluid like and runny right now....like snot.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I'm hoping the game releases soon, but I also know that it won't. If you've followed this game at all you know they have only complete one of the major zones areas and it's not fully fleshed out yet.
This game is at least 2 years away from commercial release.
This particular "been there, done that" was coming along just fine. Instead of maturing and getting more advanced it simply stopped. Now we only have hollow shells of what should have gotten better, adding a lot of greed into the mix.
The object here in a first generation game is SELF IMPROVEMENT. Make yourself better how you see fit in an extremely harsh environment so you can play with others doing the same.
Co-operation with others that SELF IMPROVED to tackle a world. To find things in a world that cant be reached alone. In fact the best modern websites can't even help is it's hard to reach.
THIS IS NEW !!!!
How is it new ?..... Because Games like EQ1 is so old and dated it's crap.
First generation mmorpgs could be a millennial's playground, where as EQ1 would be an untouchable mess to them.... It's NEW !
The vision is a great vision..... Sadly I'm very concerned by it's development
After the failed KS campaign, they took a year off to find other type of funds.
What they showed for the KS campaign was a Unity demo, that’s why it failed.
Real development starter much later than the KS debacle.
Pantheon is the indie game which showed the most so far, once the blueprint zone is done, the rest of the game is just world building, which is much faster.
It will be like creating a big expansion pack.
Realistically we are talking late 2020, early 2021.
Six years development is acceptable for an indie, considering AAA MMOs take around 5 years of development.
Such fun.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
거북이는 목을 내밀 때 안 움직입니다
Anyway, I intend to play Vanilla WoW for a good couple of years, so Pantheon releasing in 2022 is perfect timing.
The suggestion that there is an over obsession about graphics is arrant nonsense.
What I suspect there might be, however, is a surplusage of analysis and conversation. I'll bet, for example, a ton of time went into discussions of whether elves should be paladins. That, and 10,000 things like that, probably slows down the pace.
But hey, that's the secret sauce. If you want a game that loves and cares about fantasy rpg details, you have to allow them that - even if it means we wait longer.
EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests
Wizardry and "Every Game That Isn't FFXI Is/Was/Will Be Terrible".
On topic, they're working on it. They're making clear progress and the game is looking better every time they show it. No one outside of VR knows how far along they are or how their progress is moving along, however much they might want to pretend otherwise. OP included.
Some people are determined to never be satisfied with anything.
Months will go by faster than folks realize, and before you know it, the game will be available to everyone, and then the people complaining now that "it's taking too long!" can start complaining that "they should have spent more time on it!".
Oh I see, you slightly agreed with me...explains everything, carry on.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon