Classic WoW: Can Paladins tank and play Melee in endgame?

MMOExposed

Curious but can Paladins Tank or play any form of endgame Melee combat in endgame content in Classic WoW? 

Myrdynn

nope, Classic WOW is this

Warrior = only tank
Rogue = only melee dps
Hunter = puller/feign death specialist moderate dps
Mage/Lock = top DPS
Shaman, Pally, Priest, Druid = Healer

BalianWolfie

If authentic, no.

Spellpower holy shock, maybe.

Shishie_Swaggins

Myrdynn said:

nope, Classic WOW is this

Warrior = only tank
Rogue = only melee dps
Hunter = puller/feign death specialist moderate dps
Mage/Lock = top DPS
Shaman, Pally, Priest, Druid = Healer

This is pretty damn accurate.

blamo2000

Yes, paladins can tank, and probably have the easiest time AOE tanking, and weirdly enough are probably the best tanks (and AOE tanks especially for sapped/sheeped mobs, etc, in healing agro range) when heal-tanking themselves.  Less useful as a raid MT besides some fights, but my guild back in Vanilla used a Paladin for all trash clearing.

Can they DPS?  Yes.  Its also easy dps.  But not great dps.

If you join an elitist guild they almost certainly will not let you tank or dps.  Just don't join an elitist guild.  Problem solved.  

All the people who swear up and down every class has one function and has to be cookie-cutter or you are doing it wrong, most likely belong to a second tier guild trying to pretend they are top tier, and their guilds have crazy loot systems that ensure the best drops goes to guild leadership, regardless of role.  You can join a non-elitist second tier guild clearling content as well and as fast (with less drama) that doesn't have any of that elitist bologna and fair loot options for everyone.  These guilds ensure they have the bases covered (buffs, debuffs set, etc) and then just care about performance.  Put up decent numbers and you're in.  Know your class, if you are paladin dps ensure you off-heal when needed, help, etc.  Don't get tunnel vision and make yourself useful when you can.


You will shine in 5-mans as any role if you are competant.  If you want to be welcomed in a successful raiding guild you just need to be competent and find the right guild.  There are tons of them, filled with much better people than the tier 2 elitist cookie-cutter guilds, usually with much fairer gearing-up options, etc.  

There certainly are issues with a lot of hybrid dps in vanilla that were mainly addressed in BC, but most could be overcome with competence.  You won't put up top dps numbers, but you won't have embarrassing numbers and if you use all your tools you help out in a lot of other ways and are of more value than just that specific number only.  And the list above is wrong.  Warriors have strong dps in raids and I've never seen a raiding group that didn't have warriors dpsing and putting up numbers.  

Finding a good guild is 90% of the issue.  The quality tier 2 non-elitist guilds are low key and you will have to prove you are competent player and a good fit in a round-about way.  They usually invite you, and don't advertise recruitment.  They mainly recruit after you run open spots a couple times.


You can dps as any of the hybrids, regardless of what the common perception is.  PVP is my main focus in wow, so I will never have a raid build (nor waste money respecing), but I need to raid to pvp competitively, and I've never had issues getting in a good guild or putting up numbers

Thane

Myrdynn said:

nope, Classic WOW is this

Warrior = only tank
Rogue = only melee dps
Hunter = puller/feign death specialist moderate dps
Mage/Lock = top DPS
Shaman, Pally, Priest, Druid = Healer

löl. you played ally, ait?

shamans were dds
and a good shaman could easily outdo a mage those days.

Rusque

Myrdynn said:

nope, Classic WOW is this

Warrior = only tank
Rogue = only melee dps
Hunter = puller/feign death specialist moderate dps
Mage/Lock = top DPS
Shaman, Pally, Priest, Druid = Healer

Well, Druid was only a healer for a few casts and then just waited to innervate the priest. And at least one pally basically just spent the whole time rebuffing 5 min buffs.

Iselin

Rhoklaw said:

I never looked to see, but does Classic server have paladins and shamans available to both factions?

Nope. That was a Burning Crusades thing.

Nepheth

Myrdynn said:

nope, Classic WOW is this

Warrior = only tank
Rogue = only melee dps
Hunter = puller/feign death specialist moderate dps
Mage/Lock = top DPS
Shaman, Pally, Priest, Druid = Healer

Not quite right but close. Warrior(Fury) is one of the best dps classes in Vanilla. They can be both tank and dps. Shaman(Ele) was viable as a dps for dungeons and some raids. Their only problem was mana regen. And Shadow Priest is pretty viable especially after Blizz increased the debuff limit with ZG patch.

Myrdynn

Thane said:

Myrdynn said:

nope, Classic WOW is this

Warrior = only tank
Rogue = only melee dps
Hunter = puller/feign death specialist moderate dps
Mage/Lock = top DPS
Shaman, Pally, Priest, Druid = Healer

löl. you played ally, ait?

shamans were dds
and a good shaman could easily outdo a mage those days.

yes I did play Ally, assumed Shaman/Pally filled same role

Myrdynn

blamo2000 said:

Yes, paladins can tank, and probably have the easiest time AOE tanking, and weirdly enough are probably the best tanks (and AOE tanks especially for sapped/sheeped mobs, etc, in healing agro range) when heal-tanking themselves.  Less useful as a raid MT besides some fights, but my guild back in Vanilla used a Paladin for all trash clearing.

Can they DPS?  Yes.  Its also easy dps.  But not great dps.

If you join an elitist guild they almost certainly will not let you tank or dps.  Just don't join an elitist guild.  Problem solved.  

All the people who swear up and down every class has one function and has to be cookie-cutter or you are doing it wrong, most likely belong to a second tier guild trying to pretend they are top tier, and their guilds have crazy loot systems that ensure the best drops goes to guild leadership, regardless of role.  You can join a non-elitist second tier guild clearling content as well and as fast (with less drama) that doesn't have any of that elitist bologna and fair loot options for everyone.  These guilds ensure they have the bases covered (buffs, debuffs set, etc) and then just care about performance.  Put up decent numbers and you're in.  Know your class, if you are paladin dps ensure you off-heal when needed, help, etc.  Don't get tunnel vision and make yourself useful when you can.


You will shine in 5-mans as any role if you are competant.  If you want to be welcomed in a successful raiding guild you just need to be competent and find the right guild.  There are tons of them, filled with much better people than the tier 2 elitist cookie-cutter guilds, usually with much fairer gearing-up options, etc.  

There certainly are issues with a lot of hybrid dps in vanilla that were mainly addressed in BC, but most could be overcome with competence.  You won't put up top dps numbers, but you won't have embarrassing numbers and if you use all your tools you help out in a lot of other ways and are of more value than just that specific number only.  And the list above is wrong.  Warriors have strong dps in raids and I've never seen a raiding group that didn't have warriors dpsing and putting up numbers.  

Finding a good guild is 90% of the issue.  The quality tier 2 non-elitist guilds are low key and you will have to prove you are competent player and a good fit in a round-about way.  They usually invite you, and don't advertise recruitment.  They mainly recruit after you run open spots a couple times.


You can dps as any of the hybrids, regardless of what the common perception is.  PVP is my main focus in wow, so I will never have a raid build (nor waste money respecing), but I need to raid to pvp competitively, and I've never had issues getting in a good guild or putting up numbers

he asked for endgame which means raiding, from MC on, I never saw a pally tank...ever.  Rarely we let a bear tank

Utinni

We ran 2 warriors and a bear offtank, only ever had paladins healing. Ret will do 1/3rd the dps of real dps classes. Prot runs out of mana and has no taunt. On one hand you can say "play what you think is fun!" but on the other its a team based RPG. If being a burden to your friends/group/guild is fun for you then by all means go for it.

Galadourn

Ofc you can, I was dps in my guild and we downed Nef and i WAS playing as dps when we downed him.

You might be asked to assist heal in certain encounters but if the guild you play with is not made up of hardcore server-firsts, yes you can play both as tank or dps.

You WILL need though the right talents and gear for dps and tanking.

Utinni

Rhoklaw said:

Utinni said:

We ran 2 warriors and a bear offtank, only ever had paladins healing. Ret will do 1/3rd the dps of real dps classes. Prot runs out of mana and has no taunt. On one hand you can say "play what you think is fun!" but on the other its a team based RPG. If being a burden to your friends/group/guild is fun for you then by all means go for it.

This is the mentality that gamers have now and why RPG no longer exists. Is it the developers fault or gamers? Well, that depends on whether endgame content can be completed with a non cookie cutter team. If it can, than the elitists have turned gaming into an FPS / BR game void of actual RP. Sure, every gamer has their own personal interests in what they enjoy, I get that. I just can't stand people who tell me, "Play this class or get lost".

I think you misunderstood. We ran 2 warriors and a bear offtank in vanilla. This was the mentality that gamers had in 2004. We had plenty of paladins but they were people interested in helping the guild as a whole, thus they were holy. If you think you're gonna hold aggro with no mana and no taunt on a raid boss then go for it man. I'll be playing with people who aren't selfish.

Kickaxe

Myrdynn said:

blamo2000 said:

Yes, paladins can tank, and probably have the easiest time AOE tanking, and weirdly enough are probably the best tanks (and AOE tanks especially for sapped/sheeped mobs, etc, in healing agro range) when heal-tanking themselves.  Less useful as a raid MT besides some fights, but my guild back in Vanilla used a Paladin for all trash clearing.

Can they DPS?  Yes.  Its also easy dps.  But not great dps.

If you join an elitist guild they almost certainly will not let you tank or dps.  Just don't join an elitist guild.  Problem solved.  

All the people who swear up and down every class has one function and has to be cookie-cutter or you are doing it wrong, most likely belong to a second tier guild trying to pretend they are top tier, and their guilds have crazy loot systems that ensure the best drops goes to guild leadership, regardless of role.  You can join a non-elitist second tier guild clearling content as well and as fast (with less drama) that doesn't have any of that elitist bologna and fair loot options for everyone.  These guilds ensure they have the bases covered (buffs, debuffs set, etc) and then just care about performance.  Put up decent numbers and you're in.  Know your class, if you are paladin dps ensure you off-heal when needed, help, etc.  Don't get tunnel vision and make yourself useful when you can.


You will shine in 5-mans as any role if you are competant.  If you want to be welcomed in a successful raiding guild you just need to be competent and find the right guild.  There are tons of them, filled with much better people than the tier 2 elitist cookie-cutter guilds, usually with much fairer gearing-up options, etc.  

There certainly are issues with a lot of hybrid dps in vanilla that were mainly addressed in BC, but most could be overcome with competence.  You won't put up top dps numbers, but you won't have embarrassing numbers and if you use all your tools you help out in a lot of other ways and are of more value than just that specific number only.  And the list above is wrong.  Warriors have strong dps in raids and I've never seen a raiding group that didn't have warriors dpsing and putting up numbers.  

Finding a good guild is 90% of the issue.  The quality tier 2 non-elitist guilds are low key and you will have to prove you are competent player and a good fit in a round-about way.  They usually invite you, and don't advertise recruitment.  They mainly recruit after you run open spots a couple times.


You can dps as any of the hybrids, regardless of what the common perception is.  PVP is my main focus in wow, so I will never have a raid build (nor waste money respecing), but I need to raid to pvp competitively, and I've never had issues getting in a good guild or putting up numbers

he asked for endgame which means raiding, from MC on, I never saw a pally tank...ever.  Rarely we let a bear tank

That was not a vanilla mindset--raid or die. Plenty of good and challenging dungeons that were regarded as endgame content right through Vanilla to at least the end of BC (ok really only 2 in vanilla, but still).

I think blamo's reply is good, though I can't deny you may be right that the OP meant raids; sure but let's not push the retail meta onto Classic when we have a sort of second chance at appreciating the open-endedness of the early game.

cheyane

Rhoklaw said:

Utinni said:

Rhoklaw said:

Utinni said:

We ran 2 warriors and a bear offtank, only ever had paladins healing. Ret will do 1/3rd the dps of real dps classes. Prot runs out of mana and has no taunt. On one hand you can say "play what you think is fun!" but on the other its a team based RPG. If being a burden to your friends/group/guild is fun for you then by all means go for it.

This is the mentality that gamers have now and why RPG no longer exists. Is it the developers fault or gamers? Well, that depends on whether endgame content can be completed with a non cookie cutter team. If it can, than the elitists have turned gaming into an FPS / BR game void of actual RP. Sure, every gamer has their own personal interests in what they enjoy, I get that. I just can't stand people who tell me, "Play this class or get lost".

I think you misunderstood. We ran 2 warriors and a bear offtank in vanilla. This was the mentality that gamers had in 2004. We had plenty of paladins but they were people interested in helping the guild as a whole, thus they were holy. If you think you're gonna hold aggro with no mana and no taunt on a raid boss then go for it man. I'll be playing with people who aren't selfish.

Except, you're being selfish from the other side of the argument. Telling people they can't participate simply because you haven't figured out a way to make it work and maybe they have? We've already seen people bring up Druids innerverating healing classes, who, you guessed it, can and will run out of mana.

I understand what you're trying to say but most of the players more so now than when WoW launched won't allow people to play how they want if they belong to the top guilds. They'll expect compliance. Join non top guilds that are more lax and you should be good and able to play what you want without the the critique and guilt trip.

Phry

cheyane said:

Rhoklaw said:

Utinni said:

Rhoklaw said:

Utinni said:

We ran 2 warriors and a bear offtank, only ever had paladins healing. Ret will do 1/3rd the dps of real dps classes. Prot runs out of mana and has no taunt. On one hand you can say "play what you think is fun!" but on the other its a team based RPG. If being a burden to your friends/group/guild is fun for you then by all means go for it.

This is the mentality that gamers have now and why RPG no longer exists. Is it the developers fault or gamers? Well, that depends on whether endgame content can be completed with a non cookie cutter team. If it can, than the elitists have turned gaming into an FPS / BR game void of actual RP. Sure, every gamer has their own personal interests in what they enjoy, I get that. I just can't stand people who tell me, "Play this class or get lost".

I think you misunderstood. We ran 2 warriors and a bear offtank in vanilla. This was the mentality that gamers had in 2004. We had plenty of paladins but they were people interested in helping the guild as a whole, thus they were holy. If you think you're gonna hold aggro with no mana and no taunt on a raid boss then go for it man. I'll be playing with people who aren't selfish.

Except, you're being selfish from the other side of the argument. Telling people they can't participate simply because you haven't figured out a way to make it work and maybe they have? We've already seen people bring up Druids innerverating healing classes, who, you guessed it, can and will run out of mana.

I understand what you're trying to say but most of the players more so now than when WoW launched won't allow people to play how they want if they belong to the top guilds. They'll expect compliance. Join non top guilds that are more lax and you should be good and able to play what you want without the the critique and guilt trip.

It won't matter as those 'elite' guilds that do all this so called high end raiding, only represented 4% of the players in Vanilla WoW, so play the game how you want to as the class you most enjoy, unless you are a heavy raider, which most aren't, then it really won't matter.

Relampago

I was an elemental shammy we put out good dps and so did the shadow priests.  The various patches made huge variances in the shadow priest damage and health returns.

In classic be prepared for a bunch of down time buffing, gathering the raid, and especially farming beforehand.

As for the OP I played horde so can't fully comment but my understanding was pally's were healers and only occasionally would a guild use a pally to aoe offtank for a select few fights.

mbrodie

Rhoklaw said:

Utinni said:

Rhoklaw said:

Utinni said:

We ran 2 warriors and a bear offtank, only ever had paladins healing. Ret will do 1/3rd the dps of real dps classes. Prot runs out of mana and has no taunt. On one hand you can say "play what you think is fun!" but on the other its a team based RPG. If being a burden to your friends/group/guild is fun for you then by all means go for it.

This is the mentality that gamers have now and why RPG no longer exists. Is it the developers fault or gamers? Well, that depends on whether endgame content can be completed with a non cookie cutter team. If it can, than the elitists have turned gaming into an FPS / BR game void of actual RP. Sure, every gamer has their own personal interests in what they enjoy, I get that. I just can't stand people who tell me, "Play this class or get lost".

I think you misunderstood. We ran 2 warriors and a bear offtank in vanilla. This was the mentality that gamers had in 2004. We had plenty of paladins but they were people interested in helping the guild as a whole, thus they were holy. If you think you're gonna hold aggro with no mana and no taunt on a raid boss then go for it man. I'll be playing with people who aren't selfish.

Except, you're being selfish from the other side of the argument. Telling people they can't participate simply because you haven't figured out a way to make it work and maybe they have? We've already seen people bring up Druids innerverating healing classes, who, you guessed it, can and will run out of mana.

not really, Paladins weren't really given the tools to tank properly until BC, it's not a shaming elitist thing, it's just how it is... just like to some degree enhance shaman could tank with rock biter taunt, classes were in a super weird place for most of vanilla, honestly most of them didn't really start getting well fleshed out till near the end of BC.

that doesn't make people who say paladins can't tank, druids are innervate machines etc... are elitist or terrible humans, it's just a fact of vanilla.

tawess

"We've already seen people bring up Druids innerverating healing classes,"

Yeah and that was pretty much all they did.. =P 

The hybrids where broken (druids most so... but pally and shamans to a degree) 

@ OP: Yes you can tank and DPS... But "can" is the operative word. Heck a mage can melee DPS too... Just that it is a lot worse then actual DPS.  =P So if you find a group that is willing to work with you and build the team around the ideas you have. Sure, but i would not expect it to be a easy find past the first couple of weeks. Heck if things go the way it was in classic... you will soon have a server rep as "that" paladin player... =P

btdt

Most people who played vanilla played before patch 1.12 came out.  The mindset was fairly well ingrained in most by then.  The reality is, Blizzard designed a few classes to be support, and that's where they shined.  Right up until the very end.  Every class had it's maximized usefulness build.  Sometimes it wasn't the build that they like to play... but if you wanted to raid, you had to suck it up and play it or get left on the bench for the player that did.  And there were plenty of players willing to do ANYTHING to get a spot in the raid, so your bull-headedness made you out to be a non-team player.

Lest we forget, there wasn't 7 main tanks in a guild... just because you wanted to tank, didn't mean you got the call.  Yes, sometimes you were stuck being an off tank or worse yet, DPS instead for some buff or debuff that role provided to the other members of the raid.

I remember being an Affliction Warlock for most of BC just for the damn IMP buff to the tank and heck if I ever got to use anything but CoE most of BC too.  And the nights they had you respect to Demonology just for the one fight in which you tanked the boss. 

Back in those days, you did what was best for the team... the raid... not what you wanted to do all the time.  That changed later but in early WoW, the mindset was about making the ENTIRE raid the strongest it could be and that wasn't just in the elite guilds... any progression guild did that, otherwise they weren't progression guilds.

People chose to play certain classes because it increased their likelihood of getting a raid invite.  They played how and what they wanted when it wasn't a raid night.  That's how vanilla was.

kitarad

btdt said:

Most people who played vanilla played before patch 1.12 came out.  The mindset was fairly well ingrained in most by then.  The reality is, Blizzard designed a few classes to be support, and that's where they shined.  Right up until the very end.  Every class had it's maximized usefulness build.  Sometimes it wasn't the build that they like to play... but if you wanted to raid, you had to suck it up and play it or get left on the bench for the player that did.  And there were plenty of players willing to do ANYTHING to get a spot in the raid, so your bull-headedness made you out to be a non-team player.

Lest we forget, there wasn't 7 main tanks in a guild... just because you wanted to tank, didn't mean you got the call.  Yes, sometimes you were stuck being an off tank or worse yet, DPS instead for some buff or debuff that role provided to the other members of the raid.

I remember being an Affliction Warlock for most of BC just for the damn IMP buff to the tank and heck if I ever got to use anything but CoE most of BC too.  And the nights they had you respect to Demonology just for the one fight in which you tanked the boss. 

Back in those days, you did what was best for the team... the raid... not what you wanted to do all the time.  That changed later but in early WoW, the mindset was about making the ENTIRE raid the strongest it could be and that wasn't just in the elite guilds... any progression guild did that, otherwise they weren't progression guilds.

People chose to play certain classes because it increased their likelihood of getting a raid invite.  They played how and what they wanted when it wasn't a raid night.  That's how vanilla was.


I raided in WoW this was true .

BlackAdder77

Shishie_Swaggins said:

Myrdynn said:

nope, Classic WOW is this

Warrior = only tank
Rogue = only melee dps
Hunter = puller/feign death specialist moderate dps
Mage/Lock = top DPS
Shaman, Pally, Priest, Druid = Healer

This is pretty damn accurate.

Em, Warriors are the top DPS in raids, from MC all the way to Nax. Mages beat the top warriors parse only cuz of the ignition exploit.

BlackAdder77

MMOExposed said:

Curious but can Paladins Tank or play any form of endgame Melee combat in endgame content in Classic WoW? 

You can tank 6 man's although you will struggle since you have no aggro abilities. You can smurf it with AoE, but it wont be smooth as just having a Warrior in the grp.

Axxar

They can in end-game dungeons, but they are not viable in those roles once you enter raiding. They do not have the sustain, abilities nor gear options to take on raid content as tanks or damage dealers.

MMOExposed

Axxar said:

They can in end-game dungeons, but they are not viable in those roles once you enter raiding. They do not have the sustain, abilities nor gear options to take on raid content as tanks or damage dealers.

That's the thing. They can't play Melee in endgame, but at the same time they not the best healers. They just happen to be a class that can Only heal since Melee is not a option in endgame. Priest in vanilla were prime healers along side Druids. Vanilla Holy Paladins had few tools to heal compared to other healer classes. That's not good balance. 2/3rd of the class is not visible yet the 1/3rd that isn't isn't the best healer. Totally badly balanced. That's not appealing to me. That's taking large steps backwards. But it's Classic after all. Just Paladins will have it the worst in this unless you a high rank guild member that can force your way into endgame groups. LolRet days will be back.