The problem with large corporations avoiding taxes is that smaller businesses will end up paying for them and smaller businesses being run out of business due to unhealthy competitions. Short term that means you can get your cheap furniture from IKEA that hire for part time jobs and minimum wages while sending earnings to netherlands and lichtenstein.
Since people can't make a living you have the government stepping in with welfare which means more taxes and government spending more than they receive which means more debt.
It all works in a growing economy but when the economy shrinks financial institutions don't wish to risk more of their money because they want their money back with interest. The next recession will be brutal to all countries that have been running up their debt during the good times.
Even though I live in a country where debt has dropped from 70% down to 40% of GDP in the last 25 years we are also getting hit because you guys won't have the money to buy our stuff.
That us why socialism always eventually fails till we find a way to create Star Trek replicators and remove supply issues and make money irrelevant.
The problem with large corporations avoiding taxes is that smaller businesses will end up paying for them and smaller businesses being run out of business due to unhealthy competitions. Short term that means you can get your cheap furniture from IKEA that hire for part time jobs and minimum wages while sending earnings to netherlands and lichtenstein.
Since people can't make a living you have the government stepping in with welfare which means more taxes and government spending more than they receive which means more debt.
It all works in a growing economy but when the economy shrinks financial institutions don't wish to risk more of their money because they want their money back with interest. The next recession will be brutal to all countries that have been running up their debt during the good times.
Even though I live in a country where debt has dropped from 70% down to 40% of GDP in the last 25 years we are also getting hit because you guys won't have the money to buy our stuff.
That us why socialism always eventually fails till we find a way to create Star Trek replicators and remove supply issues and make money irrelevant.
What?
@Shaigh 's comments, from a US perspective, apply to what has happened during the tenure of several recent US presidents - Reagan, Bush jnr, and now Trump. Cut corporate taxes, the economy will boom and pay for them. The idea is called "supply side economics".
The evidence of the last c. 40 years - in the US and some other countries - strongly suggests that it hasn't worked. In the US the deficit has - in all cases - increased heading as now to a trillion dollars. (And fallen under more balanced approaches.)
And yet, in the US, the people enabling this still call themselves "fiscal conservatives" !!!!!!!! No wonder the congressman who was the founding light of the Tea Party is now an independent and Rand Paul rails at times. Got to keep those donations rolling in from the corporations. Heck this could become an SC thread!
So, the way the tax system is setup: Corporate taxes pay for the military.
Property taxes pay for emergency services and schools.
Gasoline taxes pay for the roads.
And in 1916, income taxes pay for the interest on the money borrowed by the US Gov from the Federal Reserve. We are paying interest on our own money!
And we come full circle back to the problem. The vast majority of the national debt was incurred by borrowing for military equipment and war efforts, which should have been covered by corporate taxes. Instead, income taxes are exhausted to pay 'some' of the interest and slow the growth of the debt.
Hint: They are not delivering payloads into space for United Parcel Service (UPS) or FEDEX. Look up, smile and wave to the camera, and think of your tax dollars at work.
By the way, with those big tax savings, why are there no new AAA MMO titles being announced? What ever happened to that windfall from offshore tax savings, and tax cuts for corporations?
Constitution Smonstitution, when your federal government needs money it’s going to get it. Only question is who are they going to get it from.
This country was founded on a tax revolt. Everyone is well aware that the GoV is going to get their taxes. And we will continue to use the law to avoid those taxes and in some cases go elsewhere.
If this bothers people so much, then change the laws. Hell, don't wait on politicians. boycott corporations that you disagree with. It's a free market, vote with your wallet.
You guys are borrowing a trillion dollars a year when your economy is “the greatest it’s ever been in the history of the United States” according to your POTUS. There comes time when you got to pay the piper.
China won't defeat us in war, they'll just call in all the loans they've made us and own us outright
Chinese government only hold 5% of our debt. Most of they debt (like 70 some percent) is held by individuals and companies that buy bonds.
I don't know, but wonder how many of these bond holders are from the US
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
By the way, with those big tax savings, why are there no new AAA MMO titles being announced? What ever happened to that windfall from offshore tax savings, and tax cuts for corporations?
I don't know. It's not OUR money to decide. The Gov involvement in business should be to encourage a fair, free market environment for all, not dictate what those businesses actually end up doing with their profits.
Worry not! When it comes to corporations paying little to no taxes and what they do with THEIR money can change.
You have four options.
1. Become CEO of Activision 2. Change the tax laws 3. Vote with your wallet (yay free markets) 4. Cope
All that I can contribute to this topic is what I know about the laws and my own experiences as a small business owner, not political talking points.
Blizzard is within the law. I already voted with my wallet, for other reasons, but nevertheless. Yet, here I am defending them FFS.
If the television was right, my business shouldn't exist. I have bad news, it does exist.
The majority of my revenue depends on other businesses' taxes. Money is extremely tight for local, small businesses. I did not foresee depending on other businesses' taxes when I started up. I don't like it. It's inconsistent. It's too risky.
I have four revenue spikes per year. Two are tax related. The other two are tourism related.
So I don't care what the media talking points are. I'm telling you my experience. My clients need something done. If they can write it off or have enough money after tax season, then they hire me to do their projects. That's just a fact you're just going to have to except, despite what you were told to believe.
The answer isn't nobody is re-investing. The answer isn't everyone is re-investing.
Like I said before, I do not know what big corporations are doing with THEIR money, as I do not experience doing business with them. Why? Because they can afford to hire someone like me full time, instead of outsourcing. I am in business to help local businesses, contribute to my community, and because I couldn't find a job 5 years ago, so I did something about it myself.
The evidence of the last c. 40 years - in the US and some other countries - strongly suggests that it hasn't worked. In the US the deficit has - in all cases - increased heading as now to a trillion dollars. (And fallen under more balanced approaches.)
Of course it doesn't work. It was always just a con to paint a rosy picture of reducing taxes for their puppet masters.
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
getting loop holes to prevent state to steal from you is normal and everyone does, expecting people pay they "dues" just because you belive the state is there to protect and help you don't make this any more right
Well, taxes pay for things. Without taxes we wouldn't have a lot. Should taxes and tax laws be looked at? Sure.
But I don't feel like living in a world where there are no roads or services or 'anything.'
I don't care too much about "living in a world". I live in the US for a reason. And the Constitution only requires the Gov to do a very few things. ex. military, a navy to prevent piracy off our shores, etc.
Here's some fun facts that some people may not be aware of:
In the US, the central bank (Federal Reserve) is a privately owned bank. (I'll come back to this in a minute)
Know which countries do not have a centralized bank? N. Korea, Iran, Iraq, Libya. Do those countries sound familiar?
So, the way the tax system is setup:
Corporate taxes pay for the military.
Property taxes pay for emergency services and schools.
Gasoline taxes pay for the roads.
And in 1916, income taxes pay for the interest on the money borrowed by the US Gov from the Federal Reserve. We are paying interest on our own money!
If the US Gov (or any country with a centralized bank), went back to controlling our money supply, we wouldn't have to pay a privately owned bank for our own money. There would not be a need for income taxes on workers.
Bankers have been trying to control the money supply since this nations founding.
Some notable US Presidents in regards to centralized banks:
Andrew Jackson - he won
Woodrow Wilson - worked for the banks prior to taking office, Federal Reserve Act 1913, (passed during Christmas Break when Congress went home and the bank lackeys stayed behind) even an outspoken Congressman was murdered fighting this.
John Kennedy - murdered (checkout his speeches on the Federal Reserve and his Executive Orders).
The history of banks trying to take over the money supply is vast, interesting, and plenty of WTF moments.
So, Activision/Blizzard legally used the law to avoid paying taxes. Good on them.
Some may disagree that's a good thing, but to those same people, does the US military really need any more money? They are working well beyond the responsibilities outlined in the Constitution (world police, etc).
With that said, if you don't like the tax laws, then change them (loopholes and exemptions are stupid). However, it's the worker paying income tax to service interest on borrowed money that's unnecessary here. Let's start efforts there.
That's the thing. How do I get out from this as well? Why only the rich capitalist get loop holes?
The problem with large corporations avoiding taxes is that smaller businesses will end up paying for them and smaller businesses being run out of business due to unhealthy competitions. Short term that means you can get your cheap furniture from IKEA that hire for part time jobs and minimum wages while sending earnings to netherlands and lichtenstein.
Since people can't make a living you have the government stepping in with welfare which means more taxes and government spending more than they receive which means more debt.
It all works in a growing economy but when the economy shrinks financial institutions don't wish to risk more of their money because they want their money back with interest. The next recession will be brutal to all countries that have been running up their debt during the good times.
Even though I live in a country where debt has dropped from 70% down to 40% of GDP in the last 25 years we are also getting hit because you guys won't have the money to buy our stuff.
That us why socialism always eventually fails till we find a way to create Star Trek replicators and remove supply issues and make money irrelevant.
and funny even on star treck its mentioned the earth only did get the paradise it was there, because of such replicators, with that it removed the very basic principe of every single human alive, survive, since it gave all food, clothes, tools, you could ever need, and with that everyone could do what they wanted without need of surviving
Big companies dont pay taxes. Nothing else is new.
...it has nothing to do with big corporations.
Money wise smart people/businesses tend to be rich and it wouldn't be smart to pay more than you have to.
Not always true
Often times paying less than you have to can end up being a nightmare, and paying more than you have to can pay off in the future. Nothing is black and white
It also depends on how you want to define rich. Many people who have all the money in the world are miserable SoB's
As the old saying goes "money can't buy you happiness" although it can at times buy you a hell of a good time
That's the thing. How do I get out from this as well? Why only the rich capitalist get loop holes?
The correct answer?
To put the control of the money supply back into the hands of citizens (Pre-1913 US Treasury). Doing so, would eliminate the interest being paid to a privately own, centralized bank. And since the Gov would no longer pay interest to a centralized bank, we can abolish (1916) income taxes and the IRS altogether.
To put income taxes in perspective; if you stacked up income taxes+time worked, upfront per year, you are working January, February, and March for free.
The realistic answer?
Well, I decided to play by rich people rules. When I did, I stopped being poor. I am not "rich" but my life is much easier. True freedom is to do and say whatever you want, over "owning things". I think people make a mistake focusing on what other people own.
It wasn't easy. I sacrificed a lot of comforts that everyday people (consumers) enjoy. I was already used to it (grew up poor). By the end of each school year, I literally used duct tape to hold my shoes together. By summer, I was barefoot until the next school year started.
I didn't want to struggle like my parents did. I realized complaining about other people having money like I'm a "victim" and waiting on my ass for somebody else to give me something, wasn't ever going to happen.
Nobody owes you anything. You literally have to get up and go do it for yourself. As soon as I realized that, I knew what to do.
That's why I have no sympathy for lazy people. I started off poor. I'm not really that smart. So, I know it can be done if you believe in yourself.
After you come to that realization, I would consider this advise for your next step:
Study successful people throughout history (even the "unpopular" ones). You will find two different kinds of successful people. If you're not a smart person, then you need to be a strong person. Be honest with yourself and decide which one is you. if you are neither of those, then you need to work on becoming one of the two.
Having money doesn't mean you have to give up your morals. In fact, your morals will come in handy if the day comes that you ended up working your way into a position to make changes from within the system.
Become the CEO at Blizzard, or support the guy that shares your morals trying to become CEO.
Corporations want money. It's the whole point of a business. We consumers, hold that money. We have more control over "how it's going to be" than you think. There are two sides to free market societies. Vote with your wallet and let them know why and that you're not coming back until they make changes.
BTW,
Damn you for making me blow my cover as the residential, idiot troll in order to talk about something serious. lol
That's the thing. How do I get out from this as well? Why only the rich capitalist get loop holes?
The correct answer?
To put the control of the money supply back into the hands of citizens (Pre-1913 US Treasury). Doing so, would eliminate the interest being paid to a privately own, centralized bank. And since the Gov would no longer pay interest to a centralized bank, we can abolish (1916) income taxes and the IRS altogether.
<snip>
Poof. The centralised bank has been abolished. People no longer pay interest to said bank. Of course the US is still running trillion dollar deficits and - guess what - the folks who lend the money want interest. So "the people" will still have to pay interest - just not to the "abolished central bank".
But OK lets assume there is a debt holiday or maybe the US defaults; either way no interest been paid. And no new borrowing.
Not "the people" (the public as a whole), but privateindividuals making a choice to borrow money for something they cannot afford. Their risk, not mine or yours.
Let's hope. We have a fiat currency based on "faith". The dollar is no longer backed by gold (1971), it's backed by our world police (US military). If your country does not sell oil in US dollars, the US military will come "free you".
Value has been replaced by fear. What happens to the US Dollar when there is no fear?
Big companies dont pay taxes. Nothing else is new.
...it has nothing to do with big corporations.
Money wise smart people/businesses tend to be rich and it wouldn't be smart to pay more than you have to.
Tax evasion no matter how it is done is illegal. But being rich somehow makes the law not apply.
Tax evasion IS illegal and punishable by law. Unfortunately, those laws are so poorly written that loopholes abound. Making use of those loopholes is smart, not illegal. If you want to "blame" someone, blame the law makers
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
Constitution Smonstitution, when your federal government needs money it’s going to get it. Only question is who are they going to get it from.
This country was founded on a tax revolt. Everyone is well aware that the GoV is going to get their taxes. And we will continue to use the law to avoid those taxes and in some cases go elsewhere.
If this bothers people so much, then change the laws. Hell, don't wait on politicians. boycott corporations that you disagree with. It's a free market, vote with your wallet.
You guys are borrowing a trillion dollars a year when your economy is “the greatest it’s ever been in the history of the United States” according to your POTUS. There comes time when you got to pay the piper.
China won't defeat us in war, they'll just call in all the loans they've made us and own us outright
Chinese government only hold 5% of our debt. Most of they debt (like 70 some percent) is held by individuals and companies that buy bonds.
I don't know, but wonder how many of these bond holders are from the US
Individuals can call in their markers and the US could tell them to piss off. Of course no one would buy bonds again.
Not "the people" (the public as a whole), but privateindividuals making a choice to borrow money for something they cannot afford. Their risk, not mine or yours.
Let's hope. We have a fiat currency based on "faith". The dollar is no longer backed by gold (1971), it's backed by our world police (US military). If your country does not sell oil in US dollars, the US military will come "free you".
Value has been replaced by fear. What happens to the US Dollar when there is no fear?
Strength of the dollar is based on the strength of the relative economies. Ask China the yuan just tanked, but their military is still the same.
Not "the people" (the public as a whole), but privateindividuals making a choice to borrow money for something they cannot afford. Their risk, not mine or yours.
Let's hope. We have a fiat currency based on "faith". The dollar is no longer backed by gold (1971), it's backed by our world police (US military). If your country does not sell oil in US dollars, the US military will come "free you".
Value has been replaced by fear. What happens to the US Dollar when there is no fear?
Yes i get that. Government stops doing "stuff" and so no longer needs to borrow to do that "stuff". Now did you misunderstand what "the US is still running trillion dollar deficits" means. Since its not about paying back borrowings.
You expect your customers to pay you - you don't expect them to rant saying that paying your business is evil. Maybe they rant about you being to expensive and say if only you cut your prices more people will come so you can cut your prices (supply side economics 101),
We should pay for what we want. Taxes are simply the bill. Not an evil. I can make choices. Most don't want to though. A trillion dollar deficit simply means that people - collectively - are not paying for "what they want". Nothing to do with no longer paying a bank,
Do you want to scrap everything paid for collectively? Military / FBI, courts, embassies, all non-military - the lot? People just buy what they want? This is a philosophy.
As soon as you say nooooo we need X though then you are into paying for stuff collectively. And you may have to pay for some stuff - that you do not want - in order to get others to pay for stuff that you do not want. But can't afford as a private citizen. A few options:
Travel stuff - roads, bridges, airports etc. Arguments for and against toll roads; would certainly lead to less travel so good for the environment: pay at the point of use generally depresses demand. Less business for you maybe? When a (taxes are bad) state I lived in proposed a toll road though - sheesh! They borrowed a few billion more.
The military - this absolutely would have to be cut. You OK with that? And when I say must that is because spending from Oct'19 to Sep'20 is estimated at $989B. And the politicians haven't / are not allowing the DoD to make the savings it wants: cut civilian staff, pay servicemen less, close bases, long list but hohoho they can't do any of that as its politically toxic. By 2024, on current projections, they won't be able to afford any new equipment or deployments though. So militaru cut backs OK with you?
Disaster relief, No taxes, no taxes. Followed by: the government hasn't responded to "our" - always our - fire / flood / hurricane / earthquake. Insurance won't cover it either.
And so on. This is what government is by the way. Whether we need it though and just let big corporations do their thing ......
Reply if you wish. I don't expect you to though. And it doesn't (directly) impact me.
My key points are simply that taxes, in and of themselves, are not evil. It is the way that we pay for our collective services. Question what politicians say. Beware the soundbite. Oh and the deficit is now getting really, really big (and most of those who have railed against deficits for years are suddenly OK with them. Pathetic!)
Strength of the dollar is based on the strength of the relative economies. Ask China the yuan just tanked, but their military is still the same.
While fiat currency is based on a economic basket, I wouldn't use the Yuan as an example. It's not a fiat currency in the same manner as most, and the recent value drop was a mechanic one to help keep it's value pinned low enough in exchange to the USD to weaken the impact of tariff costs.
Yes i get that. Government stops doing "stuff" and so no longer needs to borrow to do that "stuff". Now did you misunderstand what "the US is still running trillion dollar deficits" means. Since its not about paying back borrowings.
You expect your customers to pay you - you don't expect them to rant saying that paying your business is evil. Maybe they rant about you being to expensive and say if only you cut your prices more people will come so you can cut your prices (supply side economics 101),
We should pay for what we want. Taxes are simply the bill. Not an evil. I can make choices. Most don't want to though. A trillion dollar deficit simply means that people - collectively - are not paying for "what they want". Nothing to do with no longer paying a bank,
Do you want to scrap everything paid for collectively? Military / FBI, courts, embassies, all non-military - the lot? People just buy what they want? This is a philosophy.
As soon as you say nooooo we need X though then you are into paying for stuff collectively. And you may have to pay for some stuff - that you do not want - in order to get others to pay for stuff that you do not want. But can't afford as a private citizen. A few options:
Travel stuff - roads, bridges, airports etc. Arguments for and against toll roads; would certainly lead to less travel so good for the environment: pay at the point of use generally depresses demand. Less business for you maybe? When a (taxes are bad) state I lived in proposed a toll road though - sheesh! They borrowed a few billion more.
The military - this absolutely would have to be cut. You OK with that? And when I say must that is because spending from Oct'19 to Sep'20 is estimated at $989B. And the politicians haven't / are not allowing the DoD to make the savings it wants: cut civilian staff, pay servicemen less, close bases, long list but hohoho they can't do any of that as its politically toxic. By 2024, on current projections, they won't be able to afford any new equipment or deployments though. So militaru cut backs OK with you?
Disaster relief, No taxes, no taxes. Followed by: the government hasn't responded to "our" - always our - fire / flood / hurricane / earthquake. Insurance won't cover it either.
And so on. This is what government is by the way. Whether we need it though and just let big corporations do their thing ......
Reply if you wish. I don't expect you to though. And it doesn't (directly) impact me.
My key points are simply that taxes, in and of themselves, are not evil. It is the way that we pay for our collective services. Question what politicians say. Beware the soundbite. Oh and the deficit is now getting really, really big (and most of those who have railed against deficits for years are suddenly OK with them. Pathetic!)
I snipped for ease of quoting
I don't think people are saying "taxes are evil" (some probably are), but rather what those taxes are used for is not in some folks agendas.
I don't want to pay taxes to "help others", especially in natural disaster areas NOT in my own backyard. I don't want to give my hard earned money to support baby factory welfare recipients. I don't want to pay my Government to use my taxes to help women only organizations. Those kinds of organizations should be handled at the state and local levels, NOT the Federal level, if at all.
Let's face it, our tax money is going to things NOT provided for in the US Constitution. No wonder some folks want to do away that important piece of paper
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
I don't think people are saying "taxes are evil" (some probably are), but rather what those taxes are used for is not in some folks agendas.
I don't want to pay taxes to "help others", especially in natural disaster areas NOT in my own backyard. I don't want to give my hard earned money to support baby factory welfare recipients. I don't want to pay my Government to use my taxes to help women only organizations. Those kinds of organizations should be handled at the state and local levels, NOT the Federal level, if at all.
Let's face it, our tax money is going to things NOT provided for in the US Constitution. No wonder some folks want to do away that important piece of paper
Why exempt your own area for not having disaster relief! Getting rid of people hanging around waiting for a disaster in another area means they won't be there for you. Period. Big states - nope. Take Texas senators: pre- Houston flood: New York doesn't need disaster relief; post-flood: we need disaster funding. Pathetic!
Baby factory welfare - OK. So you want higher taxes then. Yep I said higher taxes. Increased spending on police, courts, jails that will be needed for starving, lawless mobs - try reading Charles Dickens letters or if that is to much Oliver Twist! Crime is much higher without welfare and so there are consequences. That have to be addressed. So unless you want to "round people up" and kill them - will assume not - you have to put something in place. Sod the taxes you will hire a private security firm maybe ... not a tax but ....
And what about the military. Pushing 55% of all discretionary spending now I think. (You might get labelled lots of nasty things if you are - the power of big corporations at work.)
These were just examples I gave though. Not intended to be specifics. Every single area of "collective spending" has a debate that can be had; pros and cons. "Hard choices" though - and as I said those who once railed against deficits are now suddenly OK with them. Pathetic as I said.
You guys are going where I've been trying to avoid. lol
This is a good discussion. It's ok to go into detail to explain how you arrived at your opinion on the topic. While what we are all saying is still relevant, remember we have to do this stupid dance around the Rules of Conduct.
Can we all agree that we know more about this topic than what we are allowed to discuss? Can we also all agree that our watered-down responses isn't due to the fact that either of us have a limited knowledge on the topic and is in fact, trying NOT to violate the ROC or getting this thread shut down? It's kind of hard for all of us to make our case when we are being limited by the rules.
We can agree to that, yeah?
@AlBQuirky I'm on board with you. I was hoping we wouldn't go there, but I'm afraid this is what the "pushback" is really about. People don't want to give up their pet projects and they want to take away from somebody else that made better life choices, to pay for those pet projects.
For example, when CA chooses to create, fund, and levy taxes for a new pet project, then don't expect my state to pay for their wildfires. They made a choice. Not my problem.
Or, being afraid to tell poor, irresponsible people they shouldn't have kids. Now, I know people are going to have a problem with that position. What gives me the right to tell others if they can or cannot squirt out a kid? My answer is simple. It became my right, the moment they took money away from me to pay for it. Damn right I have a say.
We don't speak the truth anymore. Coddling a huge problem.
People are mad at me for being the "evil" person for having that position. No. It's sucks. It's heartbreaking to deny people.
And I'm mad at them for putting me into this situation in the first place.
The USA is a Republic (rule of law). Our civilization works because we agreed to live within the laws. I.g. murder is a crime. We agreed to that.
So upholding the Constitution not only defines what the Gov can or cannot do, it's not a body or group of people to blame/point the finger at (more on this in a minute).
We agreed long ago, if Gov doesn't work for us the way we want it to, then we have a Constitutional Convention and change the rules with a 3/5 majority.
The "problem" with Blizzard is that people are mad and feel entitled to their money or want more of it. Blizzard is within the law. So wouldn't the solution be, change the tax law? I think, yes.
We can't get anything done when it's "Us vs. Them". The laws, that we agreed to, are neutral. Following the law, takes away the Us vs. Them.
And this is why I'm strictly for the rule of law.
@gervaise1 I still want to respond to your last reply. I am not looking to come out of our exchange to be a "winner". But when you say irrelevant things, that I have already answered clearly, it makes me wonder if you are not understanding my approach to the topic.
I'm looking at this pragmatically. And I think that you believe that I am approaching this problem the same way you are. I am not.
For example, how many more times are you going to accuse me of getting my information from "soundbites"? Do you even care that I addressed this? Because I have a few times, yet you're still stuck on it.
Anyways, I'll respond to you soon. It's not an easy thing to discuss and it wouldn't be fair to you if I didn't give you a thoughtful answer.
Again, good discussion. And I hope the mods cut us a little slack, if we keep being civil.
Comments
@Shaigh 's comments, from a US perspective, apply to what has happened during the tenure of several recent US presidents - Reagan, Bush jnr, and now Trump. Cut corporate taxes, the economy will boom and pay for them. The idea is called "supply side economics".
The evidence of the last c. 40 years - in the US and some other countries - strongly suggests that it hasn't worked. In the US the deficit has - in all cases - increased heading as now to a trillion dollars. (And fallen under more balanced approaches.)
And yet, in the US, the people enabling this still call themselves "fiscal conservatives" !!!!!!!! No wonder the congressman who was the founding light of the Tea Party is now an independent and Rand Paul rails at times. Got to keep those donations rolling in from the corporations. Heck this could become an SC thread!
Can you name their biggest customer?
Hint: They are not delivering payloads into space for United Parcel Service (UPS) or FEDEX. Look up, smile and wave to the camera, and think of your tax dollars at work.
By the way, with those big tax savings, why are there no new AAA MMO titles being announced? What ever happened to that windfall from offshore tax savings, and tax cuts for corporations?
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
I don't know. It's not OUR money to decide. The Gov involvement in business should be to encourage a fair, free market environment for all, not dictate what those businesses actually end up doing with their profits.
Worry not! When it comes to corporations paying little to no taxes and what they do with THEIR money can change.
You have four options.
1. Become CEO of Activision
2. Change the tax laws
3. Vote with your wallet (yay free markets)
4. Cope
All that I can contribute to this topic is what I know about the laws and my own experiences as a small business owner, not political talking points.
Blizzard is within the law. I already voted with my wallet, for other reasons, but nevertheless. Yet, here I am defending them FFS.
If the television was right, my business shouldn't exist. I have bad news, it does exist.
The majority of my revenue depends on other businesses' taxes. Money is extremely tight for local, small businesses. I did not foresee depending on other businesses' taxes when I started up. I don't like it. It's inconsistent. It's too risky.
I have four revenue spikes per year. Two are tax related. The other two are tourism related.
So I don't care what the media talking points are. I'm telling you my experience. My clients need something done. If they can write it off or have enough money after tax season, then they hire me to do their projects. That's just a fact you're just going to have to except, despite what you were told to believe.
The answer isn't nobody is re-investing. The answer isn't everyone is re-investing.
Like I said before, I do not know what big corporations are doing with THEIR money, as I do not experience doing business with them. Why? Because they can afford to hire someone like me full time, instead of outsourcing. I am in business to help local businesses, contribute to my community, and because I couldn't find a job 5 years ago, so I did something about it myself.
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
Philosophy of MMO Game Design
Money wise smart people/businesses tend to be rich and it wouldn't be smart to pay more than you have to.
Often times paying less than you have to can end up being a nightmare, and paying more than you have to can pay off in the future. Nothing is black and white
It also depends on how you want to define rich. Many people who have all the money in the world are miserable SoB's
As the old saying goes "money can't buy you happiness" although it can at times buy you a hell of a good time
"Be water my friend" - Bruce Lee
To put the control of the money supply back into the hands of citizens (Pre-1913 US Treasury). Doing so, would eliminate the interest being paid to a privately own, centralized bank. And since the Gov would no longer pay interest to a centralized bank, we can abolish (1916) income taxes and the IRS altogether.
To put income taxes in perspective; if you stacked up income taxes+time worked, upfront per year, you are working January, February, and March for free.
The realistic answer?
Well, I decided to play by rich people rules. When I did, I stopped being poor. I am not "rich" but my life is much easier. True freedom is to do and say whatever you want, over "owning things". I think people make a mistake focusing on what other people own.
It wasn't easy. I sacrificed a lot of comforts that everyday people (consumers) enjoy. I was already used to it (grew up poor). By the end of each school year, I literally used duct tape to hold my shoes together. By summer, I was barefoot until the next school year started.
I didn't want to struggle like my parents did. I realized complaining about other people having money like I'm a "victim" and waiting on my ass for somebody else to give me something, wasn't ever going to happen.
Nobody owes you anything. You literally have to get up and go do it for yourself. As soon as I realized that, I knew what to do.
That's why I have no sympathy for lazy people. I started off poor. I'm not really that smart. So, I know it can be done if you believe in yourself.
After you come to that realization, I would consider this advise for your next step:
Study successful people throughout history (even the "unpopular" ones). You will find two different kinds of successful people. If you're not a smart person, then you need to be a strong person. Be honest with yourself and decide which one is you. if you are neither of those, then you need to work on becoming one of the two.
Having money doesn't mean you have to give up your morals. In fact, your morals will come in handy if the day comes that you ended up working your way into a position to make changes from within the system.
Become the CEO at Blizzard, or support the guy that shares your morals trying to become CEO.
Corporations want money. It's the whole point of a business. We consumers, hold that money. We have more control over "how it's going to be" than you think. There are two sides to free market societies. Vote with your wallet and let them know why and that you're not coming back until they make changes.
BTW,
Damn you for making me blow my cover as the residential, idiot troll in order to talk about something serious. lol
I hope you can use what I shared about myself.
But OK lets assume there is a debt holiday or maybe the US defaults; either way no interest been paid. And no new borrowing.
Some things would have to be cut of course ....
To whom, if the centralized bank is "poof"?
Not "the people" (the public as a whole), but private individuals making a choice to borrow money for something they cannot afford. Their risk, not mine or yours.
Let's hope. We have a fiat currency based on "faith". The dollar is no longer backed by gold (1971), it's backed by our world police (US military). If your country does not sell oil in US dollars, the US military will come "free you".
Value has been replaced by fear. What happens to the US Dollar when there is no fear?
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
You expect your customers to pay you - you don't expect them to rant saying that paying your business is evil. Maybe they rant about you being to expensive and say if only you cut your prices more people will come so you can cut your prices (supply side economics 101),
We should pay for what we want. Taxes are simply the bill. Not an evil. I can make choices. Most don't want to though. A trillion dollar deficit simply means that people - collectively - are not paying for "what they want". Nothing to do with no longer paying a bank,
Do you want to scrap everything paid for collectively? Military / FBI, courts, embassies, all non-military - the lot? People just buy what they want? This is a philosophy.
As soon as you say nooooo we need X though then you are into paying for stuff collectively. And you may have to pay for some stuff - that you do not want - in order to get others to pay for stuff that you do not want. But can't afford as a private citizen. A few options:
Travel stuff - roads, bridges, airports etc. Arguments for and against toll roads; would certainly lead to less travel so good for the environment: pay at the point of use generally depresses demand. Less business for you maybe? When a (taxes are bad) state I lived in proposed a toll road though - sheesh! They borrowed a few billion more.
The military - this absolutely would have to be cut. You OK with that? And when I say must that is because spending from Oct'19 to Sep'20 is estimated at $989B. And the politicians haven't / are not allowing the DoD to make the savings it wants: cut civilian staff, pay servicemen less, close bases, long list but hohoho they can't do any of that as its politically toxic. By 2024, on current projections, they won't be able to afford any new equipment or deployments though. So militaru cut backs OK with you?
Disaster relief, No taxes, no taxes. Followed by: the government hasn't responded to "our" - always our - fire / flood / hurricane / earthquake. Insurance won't cover it either.
And so on. This is what government is by the way. Whether we need it though and just let big corporations do their thing ......
Reply if you wish. I don't expect you to though. And it doesn't (directly) impact me.
My key points are simply that taxes, in and of themselves, are not evil. It is the way that we pay for our collective services. Question what politicians say. Beware the soundbite. Oh and the deficit is now getting really, really big (and most of those who have railed against deficits for years are suddenly OK with them. Pathetic!)
I don't think people are saying "taxes are evil" (some probably are), but rather what those taxes are used for is not in some folks agendas.
I don't want to pay taxes to "help others", especially in natural disaster areas NOT in my own backyard. I don't want to give my hard earned money to support baby factory welfare recipients. I don't want to pay my Government to use my taxes to help women only organizations. Those kinds of organizations should be handled at the state and local levels, NOT the Federal level, if at all.
Let's face it, our tax money is going to things NOT provided for in the US Constitution. No wonder some folks want to do away that important piece of paper
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
Why exempt your own area for not having disaster relief! Getting rid of people hanging around waiting for a disaster in another area means they won't be there for you. Period. Big states - nope. Take Texas senators: pre- Houston flood: New York doesn't need disaster relief; post-flood: we need disaster funding. Pathetic!
Baby factory welfare - OK. So you want higher taxes then. Yep I said higher taxes. Increased spending on police, courts, jails that will be needed for starving, lawless mobs - try reading Charles Dickens letters or if that is to much Oliver Twist! Crime is much higher without welfare and so there are consequences. That have to be addressed. So unless you want to "round people up" and kill them - will assume not - you have to put something in place. Sod the taxes you will hire a private security firm maybe ... not a tax but ....
And what about the military. Pushing 55% of all discretionary spending now I think. (You might get labelled lots of nasty things if you are - the power of big corporations at work.)
These were just examples I gave though. Not intended to be specifics. Every single area of "collective spending" has a debate that can be had; pros and cons. "Hard choices" though - and as I said those who once railed against deficits are now suddenly OK with them. Pathetic as I said.
Last I checked life is pretty damn sweet compared to those times.
"Be water my friend" - Bruce Lee
You guys are going where I've been trying to avoid. lol
This is a good discussion. It's ok to go into detail to explain how you arrived at your opinion on the topic. While what we are all saying is still relevant, remember we have to do this stupid dance around the Rules of Conduct.
Can we all agree that we know more about this topic than what we are allowed to discuss? Can we also all agree that our watered-down responses isn't due to the fact that either of us have a limited knowledge on the topic and is in fact, trying NOT to violate the ROC or getting this thread shut down? It's kind of hard for all of us to make our case when we are being limited by the rules.
We can agree to that, yeah?
@AlBQuirky I'm on board with you. I was hoping we wouldn't go there, but I'm afraid this is what the "pushback" is really about. People don't want to give up their pet projects and they want to take away from somebody else that made better life choices, to pay for those pet projects.
For example, when CA chooses to create, fund, and levy taxes for a new pet project, then don't expect my state to pay for their wildfires. They made a choice. Not my problem.
Or, being afraid to tell poor, irresponsible people they shouldn't have kids. Now, I know people are going to have a problem with that position. What gives me the right to tell others if they can or cannot squirt out a kid? My answer is simple. It became my right, the moment they took money away from me to pay for it. Damn right I have a say.
We don't speak the truth anymore. Coddling a huge problem.
People are mad at me for being the "evil" person for having that position. No. It's sucks. It's heartbreaking to deny people.
And I'm mad at them for putting me into this situation in the first place.
The USA is a Republic (rule of law). Our civilization works because we agreed to live within the laws. I.g. murder is a crime. We agreed to that.
So upholding the Constitution not only defines what the Gov can or cannot do, it's not a body or group of people to blame/point the finger at (more on this in a minute).
We agreed long ago, if Gov doesn't work for us the way we want it to, then we have a Constitutional Convention and change the rules with a 3/5 majority.
The "problem" with Blizzard is that people are mad and feel entitled to their money or want more of it. Blizzard is within the law. So wouldn't the solution be, change the tax law? I think, yes.
We can't get anything done when it's "Us vs. Them". The laws, that we agreed to, are neutral. Following the law, takes away the Us vs. Them.
And this is why I'm strictly for the rule of law.
@gervaise1 I still want to respond to your last reply. I am not looking to come out of our exchange to be a "winner". But when you say irrelevant things, that I have already answered clearly, it makes me wonder if you are not understanding my approach to the topic.
I'm looking at this pragmatically. And I think that you believe that I am approaching this problem the same way you are. I am not.
For example, how many more times are you going to accuse me of getting my information from "soundbites"? Do you even care that I addressed this? Because I have a few times, yet you're still stuck on it.
Anyways, I'll respond to you soon. It's not an easy thing to discuss and it wouldn't be fair to you if I didn't give you a thoughtful answer.
Again, good discussion. And I hope the mods cut us a little slack, if we keep being civil.