Now, should games be better designed? Yes Should they be less binary(either faceroll or get rolled ; this applies equally to Souls and to CoD)? Yes Should they be more genuinely FUN? Yes
But willing to lose or designed to lose? ...fml! What is this?
Overall I'm willing to lose if a price of a loss is smaller than the reward at the end of alternate path(caused by said loss). But losing IS NOT FUN, wake up! Games are here to ENTERTAIN(=fun), lol.
Do you want to play games that are so easy you can’t lose or that risk nothing if you do?
No, that's boring. But it must be a fine gradient, not a binary crap.
One of the biggest problems, in my opinion, is the fact that players don't seem to be willing to lose. Anything. At all.
When an MMORPG is designed for this, well, we get what we got now for games.
Losing comes in many forms. So this subject covers quite a large area. But the basic question is, are you willing to lose? Can a game be better if you can lose?
I am a HUGE dark souls fan, i like to lose cause then the win feels that much better
But, see, the thing with DS is those games were designed specifically with losing in mind. There was even an achievement for your first death or something.
In other words, their system was designed to not crush your soul when you did lose, but to encourage improvement. That's a massive difference from what most games do.
You weren't going to de-level or suffer perma-death or have to pay a fortune for a resurrection, and so on.
It had just enough frustration/motivation that you worried about surviving to recover your souls, but it didn't make you feel like you just lost 3 days worth of time.
Those old games like EQ, in particular, went way too far with penalizing. 30-minute corpse runs(naked), to fight back to your body without your equipment, while also suffering massive exp loss and losing levels(potentially) was ridiculously overboard.
The vast majority of all players back then felt that way, which is why those things faded away. I can agree they might have gone too far towards the other extreme nowadays, but it needed a change.
Simply put, yes. Losing is not such a terrible thing for me.
My caveat is that I don't mind losing if I have a chance to win. If I have zero chance to win, it frustrates me.
PS: Heck, I love playing XCom for goodness sake
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
F2P developers are watching this thread carefully and designing their future cash shops around it. Be careful what you wish for
I can't think of anything scarier than more punishing games in a F2P environment.
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
I always played hard in sports or most other things in life, but I never really cared if I won or lost in video games. My ego wasn't crushed if I got killed by someone in a video game, and usually they were light years stronger so the odds were about 0 anyway. Really the entire PVP industry is built on players that can't handle losing and will spend money to avoid doing so.
Now, should games be better designed? Yes Should they be less binary(either faceroll or get rolled ; this applies equally to Souls and to CoD)? Yes Should they be more genuinely FUN? Yes
But willing to lose or designed to lose? ...fml! What is this?
Overall I'm willing to lose if a price of a loss is smaller than the reward at the end of alternate path(caused by said loss). But losing IS NOT FUN, wake up! Games are here to ENTERTAIN(=fun), lol.
You make it sound like the objective is to have players lose all the time. It's not that, it's about the possibility to lose, and losing sometimes.
Simply put, yes. Losing is not such a terrible thing for me.
My caveat is that I don't mind losing if I have a chance to win. If I have zero chance to win, it frustrates me.
PS: Heck, I love playing XCom for goodness sake
That, and sometimes taking a step back and make new plans. Figuring out how to handle what went wrong the first time, which you might have died in, or you might have beat a tactical retreat and lost nothing but time, while gathering info for the next attempt.
I'd love to get an honest answer to this question from some whales. Now that would be interesting.
This whale had a bit to say ;')
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
One of the biggest problems, in my opinion, is the fact that players don't seem to be willing to lose. Anything. At all.
When an MMORPG is designed for this, well, we get what we got now for games.
Losing comes in many forms. So this subject covers quite a large area. But the basic question is, are you willing to lose? Can a game be better if you can lose?
I am a HUGE dark souls fan, i like to lose cause then the win feels that much better
But, see, the thing with DS is those games were designed specifically with losing in mind. There was even an achievement for your first death or something.
In other words, their system was designed to not crush your soul when you did lose, but to encourage improvement. That's a massive difference from what most games do.
You weren't going to de-level or suffer perma-death or have to pay a fortune for a resurrection, and so on.
It had just enough frustration/motivation that you worried about surviving to recover your souls, but it didn't make you feel like you just lost 3 days worth of time.
Those old games like EQ, in particular, went way too far with penalizing. 30-minute corpse runs(naked), to fight back to your body without your equipment, while also suffering massive exp loss and losing levels(potentially) was ridiculously overboard.
The vast majority of all players back then felt that way, which is why those things faded away. I can agree they might have gone too far towards the other extreme nowadays, but it needed a change.
I played a mmo called conquer online, for many years. One of the biggest things from its original state was dropping your inventory when you died, if by player or monster. I used to hunt other players who were hunting items so I could kill them and get there loot : ). There was also exp loss when being player killed, and at high levels were talking hours of mob grinding exp gone in the flash of a sword.
The draw back to that if you killed a few people your were at risk of dropping your equipped items when you died. That made the game much more fun for me. The system is still intact in said game, but its so p2win now that my wallet doesnt give me the luxury of killing anyone i want : P
I also play madden, my favorite seasons were the ones I was barely scrapping by to make playoffs. I like overcoming obstacles. Makes games more enjoyable. (Miami Dolphins fan, so ya.......always running original rosters seasons could be really tough with there QB slot forever being occupied by lackluster performers)
Path Of Exile hardcore mode is something I play as well from time to time. Love me some perma death! There wasw another mmo I played Shaiya, i think it was called, you had a choice if you wanted a perma death character. I played it several years ago, was a good edge of your seat fight to the top!
F2P developers are watching this thread carefully and designing their future cash shops around it. Be careful what you wish for
I can't think of anything scarier than more punishing games in a F2P environment.
Never said I wanted to pay for it.
That's not what I'm getting at. Even today's games with their ridiculously easy game play and advancement make a lot of money off "convenience" items in their cash shops that take it to an even easier level.
What do you think would happen if they made things harder in games with cash shops?
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
F2P developers are watching this thread carefully and designing their future cash shops around it. Be careful what you wish for
I can't think of anything scarier than more punishing games in a F2P environment.
Never said I wanted to pay for it.
That's not what I'm getting at. Even today's games with their ridiculously easy game play and advancement make a lot of money off "convenience" items in their cash shops that take it to an even easier level.
What do you think would happen if they made things harder in games with cash shops?
The same people would pay for them, if they played at all. People who are willing to pay will pay, those who are not won’t.
F2P developers are watching this thread carefully and designing their future cash shops around it. Be careful what you wish for
I can't think of anything scarier than more punishing games in a F2P environment.
Never said I wanted to pay for it.
That's not what I'm getting at. Even today's games with their ridiculously easy game play and advancement make a lot of money off "convenience" items in their cash shops that take it to an even easier level.
What do you think would happen if they made things harder in games with cash shops?
This topic really doesn't suit gamers who like Cash Shops. It's wasted on them, they are already known for their desire for "easy."
It's interesting that many of us here started gaming in arcades with games designed for losing. The more we lost, the more quarters we pumped into the machines.
My, how far we've come
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
Now, should games be better designed? Yes Should they be less binary(either faceroll or get rolled ; this applies equally to Souls and to CoD)? Yes Should they be more genuinely FUN? Yes
But willing to lose or designed to lose? ...fml! What is this?
Overall I'm willing to lose if a price of a loss is smaller than the reward at the end of alternate path(caused by said loss). But losing IS NOT FUN, wake up! Games are here to ENTERTAIN(=fun), lol.
You make it sound like the objective is to have players lose all the time. It's not that, it's about the possibility to lose, and losing sometimes.
Why even talk or focus on a completely natural thing? That's where the game industry lead us with their shenanigans. To discuss 100% normal things and consider them "special".
To answer the OP more directly: I don't have to win, but I hate losing. Make of that what you will.
"A completely natural thing", yes! It should feel that way. And if it isn't, something feels wrong. Thank you for bringing that up.
But as far as making a game, they have to code it somehow. So it's really a design issue over top of the focus, isn't it?
OP, did you change the title, or did I misread it the first time (PvE not about PvP)?
In PvE, I miss "failing" in crafting. I miss spells the fizzle. I miss "missing" weapon attacks. I sometimes even miss EQ's old, mainly loathed corpse runs
I really miss the game doing RNG in fights figuring in a character's (not player's) skills vs the monster's skills.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
No, I am not willing to lose. Losing means failure, failure means I did not calculate every single possibility, every milimeter to move, every second of skill to use. And to be honest, I do not like to be a failure.
I know so many people who play video games not to win - but to enjoy the experience - they don't care about gearing up or raiding or end game at all.
So in case of video games - you don't have to play to win the game at all, you can play it for pure enjoyment of doing whatever the hell you wish - like some players just log in to chat in general, some love to craft, some only log in to play with their guild, some like to solo etc.....
So it's quite different than professional sports where you play to win and get $$$, and if a pro player is not playing to win - guess what - they lose their job, get kicked off the team.
winning does not mean the same thing to everyone.
to some enjoyment regardless of advancement is winning because that is their goal
He's making that up, everyone likes to win, unless of course they never do, then they pawn off an excuse about playing just for "fun."
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
In UO, the first really "massively" MMO, when a player died the MOBs around him could and would loot him of some stuff. Another player, when killing said MOB, would then be able to loot it off that MOB.
None of a player's gear or things carried were safe from being lost. Your corpse would eventually decay, and anything on it was lost for good.
While this was a loss, it had some good side effects. > Dying could hurt. > Friends who helped you resurrect and get you gear back were a value. > If you died, a helpful stranger often became a friend. > Guilds often grew because of being helpful in this and other ways. > Loyalty, due to certainty through actions, was heightened.
I've always felt this was a benefit to my gaming experience.
In classic EQ, you died alot.....good gear was very hard to come by early on, it wasnt until several expansions later when the gear became more viable....THe only resort you had was making lots of friends and grouping up.
Comments
My caveat is that I don't mind losing if I have a chance to win. If I have zero chance to win, it frustrates me.
PS: Heck, I love playing XCom for goodness sake
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
I can't think of anything scarier than more punishing games in a F2P environment.
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
The next few replies, of which were mostly mine, should show you that.
Once upon a time....
You make it sound like the objective is to have players lose all the time.
It's not that, it's about the possibility to lose, and losing sometimes.
Once upon a time....
Once upon a time....
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
The draw back to that if you killed a few people your were at risk of dropping your equipped items when you died. That made the game much more fun for me. The system is still intact in said game, but its so p2win now that my wallet doesnt give me the luxury of killing anyone i want : P
I also play madden, my favorite seasons were the ones I was barely scrapping by to make playoffs. I like overcoming obstacles. Makes games more enjoyable. (Miami Dolphins fan, so ya.......always running original rosters seasons could be really tough with there QB slot forever being occupied by lackluster performers)
Path Of Exile hardcore mode is something I play as well from time to time. Love me some perma death! There wasw another mmo I played Shaiya, i think it was called, you had a choice if you wanted a perma death character. I played it several years ago, was a good edge of your seat fight to the top!
What do you think would happen if they made things harder in games with cash shops?
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
Once upon a time....
My, how far we've come
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
Thank you for bringing that up.
But as far as making a game, they have to code it somehow. So it's really a design issue over top of the focus, isn't it?
Once upon a time....
Friendships that fizzle. Guilds that fold up. The loss of the joy of new discovery.
Items and levels can be replaced. Real loss is often permanent.
EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests
In PvE, I miss "failing" in crafting. I miss spells the fizzle. I miss "missing" weapon attacks. I sometimes even miss EQ's old, mainly loathed corpse runs
I really miss the game doing RNG in fights figuring in a character's (not player's) skills vs the monster's skills.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
And to be honest, I do not like to be a failure.
http://www.mmoblogg.wordpress.com
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon