I know so many people who play video games not to win - but to enjoy the experience - they don't care about gearing up or raiding or end game at all.
So in case of video games - you don't have to play to win the game at all, you can play it for pure enjoyment of doing whatever the hell you wish - like some players just log in to chat in general, some love to craft, some only log in to play with their guild, some like to solo etc.....
So it's quite different than professional sports where you play to win and get $$$, and if a pro player is not playing to win - guess what - they lose their job, get kicked off the team.
Losing in PvE, its the moment when people start yelling at each others, groups and guilds fall apart or game over shows up on your screen and all there is to do is to start from scratch.
Not many games include a failure state because we are not playing on arcades that ask you for another nickel to keep going. A few games include optional modes like ironman or hardcore but few people are willing to permanently lose in a game.
I hate starting over in lengthy games so I'm not a fan of losing in PvE. I did love Darkest Dungeon but I don't think I would have enjoyed my time if I had lost and had to start over after 50 hours gametime.
Iselin: And the next person who says "but it's a business, they need to make money" can just go fuck yourself.
OP, did you change the title, or did I misread it the first time (PvE not about PvP)?
In PvE, I miss "failing" in crafting. I miss spells the fizzle. I miss "missing" weapon attacks. I sometimes even miss EQ's old, mainly loathed corpse runs
I really miss the game doing RNG in fights figuring in a character's (not player's) skills vs the monster's skills.
Yes, I changed the title. I failed to consider that people would think about the PvP aspect, but that's not what was on my mind at the time.
Oh yeah, I miss that stuff too, except the EQ's corpse runs. I didn't play EQ, but a half hour corpse run, as has been told, seems like way too much. Unless that was only in a few, special, locations? In that case, to me, that danger/risk is a challenging aspect. In UO, if a player couldn't find a Wandering Healer NPC, and no one around to res you, and you had to make a long run as a ghost to a city and then back again, your corpse could decay and you'd lose all the possessions on it. That's a time that you hope your best stuff was looted by a MOB, lol.
To me, these things (in moderation) add to the game.
Losing in PvE, its the moment when people start yelling at each others, groups and guilds fall apart or game over shows up on your screen and all there is to do is to start from scratch.
Not many games include a failure state because we are not playing on arcades that ask you for another nickel to keep going. A few games include optional modes like ironman or hardcore but few people are willing to permanently lose in a game.
I hate starting over in lengthy games so I'm not a fan of losing in PvE. I did love Darkest Dungeon but I don't think I would have enjoyed my time if I had lost and had to start over after 50 hours gametime.
I'm not talking about losing everything and starting over. This is about sometimes losing, and being affected by that. Making "winning" a bigger deal.
In UO, the first really "massively" MMO, when a player died the MOBs around him could and would loot him of some stuff. Another player, when killing said MOB, would then be able to loot it off that MOB.
None of a player's gear or things carried were safe from being lost. Your corpse would eventually decay, and anything on it was lost for good.
While this was a loss, it had some good side effects. > Dying could hurt. > Friends who helped you resurrect and get you gear back were a value. > If you died, a helpful stranger often became a friend. > Guilds often grew because of being helpful in this and other ways. > Loyalty, due to certainty through actions, was heightened.
I've always felt this was a benefit to my gaming experience.
helpful stranger? loyalty? those days are gone.
Only because there are no opportunities left in the modern day "win-win" designs. You can always find helpful people, just like you can always find unhelpful one.
OP, did you change the title, or did I misread it the first time (PvE not about PvP)?
In PvE, I miss "failing" in crafting. I miss spells the fizzle. I miss "missing" weapon attacks. I sometimes even miss EQ's old, mainly loathed corpse runs
I really miss the game doing RNG in fights figuring in a character's (not player's) skills vs the monster's skills.
Yes, I changed the title. I failed to consider that people would think about the PvP aspect, but that's not what was on my mind at the time.
Oh yeah, I miss that stuff too, except the EQ's corpse runs. I didn't play EQ, but a half hour corpse run, as has been told, seems like way too much. Unless that was only in a few, special, locations? In that case, to me, that danger/risk is a challenging aspect. In UO, if a player couldn't find a Wandering Healer NPC, and no one around to res you, and you had to make a long run as a ghost to a city and then back again, your corpse could decay and you'd lose all the possessions on it. That's a time that you hope your best stuff was looted by a MOB, lol.
To me, these things (in moderation) add to the game.
The corpse runs in EQ could be a long process (even longer than 30 minutes), but could also be short. A couple of classes had abilities designed specifically to help other players out: Bard, Cleric, and Necromancer all had "find corpse" abilities and Clerics and Necromancers could also resurrect others.
The big thing, though, was that a player could "give permission" to any other player to "drag" their corpse for them to a safe spot. This was a huge show of trust as those given permission could also loot said corpse.
There was a 1 week "de-spawn" time, so if you had to log out for some IRL reason, you had time to recover your corpse later.
I didn't mind it because it threw a "randomness" into the gameplay and I found "game friends" by either asking for help or giving help. Granted, that kind of gameplay is pretty much gone from MMORPGs these days
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
OP, did you change the title, or did I misread it the first time (PvE not about PvP)?
In PvE, I miss "failing" in crafting. I miss spells the fizzle. I miss "missing" weapon attacks. I sometimes even miss EQ's old, mainly loathed corpse runs
I really miss the game doing RNG in fights figuring in a character's (not player's) skills vs the monster's skills.
Yes, I changed the title. I failed to consider that people would think about the PvP aspect, but that's not what was on my mind at the time.
Oh yeah, I miss that stuff too, except the EQ's corpse runs. I didn't play EQ, but a half hour corpse run, as has been told, seems like way too much. Unless that was only in a few, special, locations? In that case, to me, that danger/risk is a challenging aspect. In UO, if a player couldn't find a Wandering Healer NPC, and no one around to res you, and you had to make a long run as a ghost to a city and then back again, your corpse could decay and you'd lose all the possessions on it. That's a time that you hope your best stuff was looted by a MOB, lol.
To me, these things (in moderation) add to the game.
The corpse runs in EQ could be a long process (even longer than 30 minutes), but could also be short. A couple of classes had abilities designed specifically to help other players out: Bard, Cleric, and Necromancer all had "find corpse" abilities and Clerics and Necromancers could also resurrect others.
The big thing, though, was that a player could "give permission" to any other player to "drag" their corpse for them to a safe spot. This was a huge show of trust as those given permission could also loot said corpse.
There was a 1 week "de-spawn" time, so if you had to log out for some IRL reason, you had time to recover your corpse later.
I didn't mind it because it threw a "randomness" into the gameplay and I found "game friends" by either asking for help or giving help. Granted, that kind of gameplay is pretty much gone from MMORPGs these days
To your last sentence, so is just about all socialness in most games today. Those early MMORPGs had a lot of social interaction, and it was a lot more fun to play. And guilds had a lot more stickiness to them because the players felt a comradery there.
I think people more or less find the most efficient way to progress. If they progress faster hiding in safe zone, they'll stay there. If they progress faster in dangerous area, they'll go there.
Try a 36 hour corpse run Plane of Fear helping others to beat the decay clock in a largely deserted Plane in Everquest. Cannot really say you enjoyed that but man you wouldn't forgot that easily now would you?
Losing in PvE, its the moment when people start yelling at each others, groups and guilds fall apart or game over shows up on your screen and all there is to do is to start from scratch.
Not many games include a failure state because we are not playing on arcades that ask you for another nickel to keep going. A few games include optional modes like ironman or hardcore but few people are willing to permanently lose in a game.
I hate starting over in lengthy games so I'm not a fan of losing in PvE. I did love Darkest Dungeon but I don't think I would have enjoyed my time if I had lost and had to start over after 50 hours gametime.
I'm not talking about losing everything and starting over. This is about sometimes losing, and being affected by that. Making "winning" a bigger deal.
In that case, I personally enjoy raid bosses that takes 10+ attempts to take down over bosses that you one shot immediately. It took almost a week to take down onyxia, took a while to take down ragnaros and nefarian as well. Its the failed attempts that makes fights feel special.
Its like playing a game for a long time and for all the buildup over the last boss when you get there its a cake walk, it leave you with an empty feeling.
Iselin: And the next person who says "but it's a business, they need to make money" can just go fuck yourself.
My personality doesn't like to lose anything I've worked for. I do not like it. There's no ifs or buts about this. If a game takes something away from me that I've earned or worked to acquire, I'm very, very annoyed. This is simple self-knowledge. Knowing this keeps me from doing dumb stuff like investing time in full loot PvP games only to rage quit.
I've played hundreds of hours of Civilization, perhaps thousands across all the iterations. I'm mostly a pacifist, willing to make peace and play a waiting game, unless some idiot warmonger takes one of my cities, then it is all-out war, endless, ceaseless war until I have wiped them and their allies off the map. I never make peace once they've taken one of my cities. Never.
But losing a strategy game, where you've been outmaneuvered or tried something that didn't work helps you play better. You almost never learn anything from winning, particularly an overwhelming victory.
This is one reason the obsession with winning that so many players have to the extent that they are able to justify cheating in order to do so is such a detrimental fixation. Not only does it prevent them from learning to play well, it hollows out the game experience and ensures they'll never learn anything important about themselves, other than their willingness to cheat to win, which they don't really learn since they will construct a self-justification that allows cheating to be acceptable.
This is beating a dead horse, people don't like to lose stuff they put a lot of time in to get.. for some reason developers can't seem to figure this out after 20 years. The reason why WoW took off was quite simply because they figured this out.
The reality is a persons time is far more valuable then anything in the game, and just by having the player walk back to where they were is all the 'loss' they need.
If i venture out into the game world with no fear of dying, i get bored instantly. I long for the days of having to group up just to make it to safe spots outside of cities. This is a fine line though and i despise overcrowded zones packed so tight that you can't go 2 feet without running into mobs.
Basically, if i go to a spot i've never been before, i expect to die. If i don't and there's no fear of dying, then the "adventuring" is meaningless.
I think people more or less find the most efficient way to progress. If they progress faster hiding in safe zone, they'll stay there. If they progress faster in dangerous area, they'll go there.
For me, it's more of a "failure", not really a "loss." Spells that fail. Attacks that have a chance to outright miss. Crafting that fails and you lose your materials. That's what I miss in PvE and how I interpreted the topic
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
It looks like most here are working on the assumption that you'll eventually die in an RPG. So that the only thing you could mean by a loss is that you'll lose time/exp/items.
Practice doesn't make perfect, practice makes permanent.
"At one point technology meant making tech that could get to the moon, now it means making tech that could get you a taxi."
This is really a wide open topic, because there are a lot of ways you can "lose" somehow in an MMORPG (if it's part of the design).
For me, I like (assuming things work both ways): > spell fizzles and loss of components > loss of supplies, including arrows > misses on attacks > random damage that can give a low damage result > critical damages taken that can change the course of your battle > minor death penalties that can be mitigated, as in no penalty with a Resurrection from a player, or potions that temporarily remove the penalty > MOB corpse looting > gear damage and repair, and gear breakage if it's already damaged enough > pet death, but with AI where they'll try to run away if threatened with death > pet survival AI as above, which can leave the player in danger > damage range to clothing, bags, backpacks, like fire damage > House damage and repair (MOBs, storms, fires, and just general time) > curses that take more than just a remove curse spell or a potion to remove
Now, I know many players would like probably not like this next idea, but I'd love it. Perma-Death from the very top Bosses. Not always, and only in certain circumstances, but very possible. This only works in a Sandbox game. And I'd give players something in return for the loss of this character. It's not suited for a Themepark where at this level you're running raids, and the idea of repeating them until the next expansion comes out.
Comments
Not many games include a failure state because we are not playing on arcades that ask you for another nickel to keep going. A few games include optional modes like ironman or hardcore but few people are willing to permanently lose in a game.
I hate starting over in lengthy games so I'm not a fan of losing in PvE. I did love Darkest Dungeon but I don't think I would have enjoyed my time if I had lost and had to start over after 50 hours gametime.
Oh yeah, I miss that stuff too, except the EQ's corpse runs.
I didn't play EQ, but a half hour corpse run, as has been told, seems like way too much.
Unless that was only in a few, special, locations? In that case, to me, that danger/risk is a challenging aspect. In UO, if a player couldn't find a Wandering Healer NPC, and no one around to res you, and you had to make a long run as a ghost to a city and then back again, your corpse could decay and you'd lose all the possessions on it. That's a time that you hope your best stuff was looted by a MOB, lol.
To me, these things (in moderation) add to the game.
Once upon a time....
I'm not talking about losing everything and starting over.
This is about sometimes losing, and being affected by that. Making "winning" a bigger deal.
Once upon a time....
Only because there are no opportunities left in the modern day "win-win" designs.
You can always find helpful people, just like you can always find unhelpful one.
Once upon a time....
The big thing, though, was that a player could "give permission" to any other player to "drag" their corpse for them to a safe spot. This was a huge show of trust as those given permission could also loot said corpse.
There was a 1 week "de-spawn" time, so if you had to log out for some IRL reason, you had time to recover your corpse later.
I didn't mind it because it threw a "randomness" into the gameplay and I found "game friends" by either asking for help or giving help. Granted, that kind of gameplay is pretty much gone from MMORPGs these days
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
Those early MMORPGs had a lot of social interaction, and it was a lot more fun to play.
And guilds had a lot more stickiness to them because the players felt a comradery there.
Once upon a time....
Exp loss upon death? Equipment loss upon death?
I think people more or less find the most efficient way to progress. If they progress faster hiding in safe zone, they'll stay there. If they progress faster in dangerous area, they'll go there.
Its like playing a game for a long time and for all the buildup over the last boss when you get there its a cake walk, it leave you with an empty feeling.
The reality is a persons time is far more valuable then anything in the game, and just by having the player walk back to where they were is all the 'loss' they need.
Basically, if i go to a spot i've never been before, i expect to die. If i don't and there's no fear of dying, then the "adventuring" is meaningless.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
Practice doesn't make perfect, practice makes permanent.
"At one point technology meant making tech that could get to the moon, now it means making tech that could get you a taxi."
For me, I like (assuming things work both ways):
> spell fizzles and loss of components
> loss of supplies, including arrows
> misses on attacks
> random damage that can give a low damage result
> critical damages taken that can change the course of your battle
> minor death penalties that can be mitigated, as in no penalty with a Resurrection from a player, or potions that temporarily remove the penalty
> MOB corpse looting
> gear damage and repair, and gear breakage if it's already damaged enough
> pet death, but with AI where they'll try to run away if threatened with death
> pet survival AI as above, which can leave the player in danger
> damage range to clothing, bags, backpacks, like fire damage
> House damage and repair (MOBs, storms, fires, and just general time)
> curses that take more than just a remove curse spell or a potion to remove
Now, I know many players would like probably not like this next idea, but I'd love it.
Perma-Death from the very top Bosses. Not always, and only in certain circumstances, but very possible.
This only works in a Sandbox game. And I'd give players something in return for the loss of this character.
It's not suited for a Themepark where at this level you're running raids, and the idea of repeating them until the next expansion comes out.
Once upon a time....