It bothers me only if you can buy something that gives you an advantage but cant get in game ,or if they make it extremely hard to get EG 30 man raid T10 boss or something
P2W is hiring a professional gamer to train your kids, level up your character, or run dungeons to get special gear for you!
"We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." SR Covey
P2W impacts game design. Games are set up to bilk you for money to advance by making obstacles incredibly tedious (not fun) to access additional content that is fun. The best (read sneakiest) ones have a more gradual gradient to lure you into commitment. A great example of this practice is inventory (bag space). You acquire a lot of loot by game design to make you want to buy more bags from the cash shop. Early on in the game this is managed by the amount of loot you acquire that you need to use (for crafting, enhancements, etc) is low. As you progress and get more invested, the requirements become greater and varied. This puts pressure on the amount of inventory space you have to make the purchasing side to alleviate this issue more attractive.
Many of those extremely tedious obstacles existed before p2w though.
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
I think that any f2p system should be 100% cosmetic. That’s why I don’t like P2W. Destiny 2 is a great example. You buy expansions to play a non subscription game however in it they have “seasons” like fortnite. Except instead of cosmetic stuff you can get exotic weapons and craft pieces that are very low drop rates or super tedious quests. That’s a really messed up P2w system cause you also have to grind as well lol.
I dont think exp boosts are p2w. Only gear is p2w imo
Time = money and money = time. They can easily be converted. The smartest are those who when they sleep = money.
But the money part is NOT equal. Your time = money is not the same as my time = money.
For me it is all about choices. Time is finite. Everyone gets 24 hours each day. No more, no less. What everyone chooses to do with those hours is all on those making the choice. Unfortunately, we don't get to choose our salary. That is where the inequality lies.
People chose to get married, to have children. People choose to work 80 hours a week jobs. People choose Netflix or playing sports over gaming.
When all is said and done, we all have the same 24 hours each and every day
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
It
was awesome in SWG. I came into the game via some RL friends and was
handed a bunch of special resources and was able to make top level
weapons. I had a weapons shop and repeat customers. It was absolutely
fantastic.
If you're going to implement crafting then you need
people to be known for their crafting. I was a gunsmith and was known
for it. In EVE I created ships for other people and would have repeat
customers.
In Entropia, given that there are shops and auction
houses, it is difficult to establish yourself as a crafter as very few
things in the game are in demand. Also, since price is the only thing
that matters and there's no such thing as different quality, selling
stuff is only about price.
I could conceivably construct weapons that are in demand but there is a lot of other concurrent crafters.
Overall,
I like the ability to play with people and the ability to not have to. I
have a busy schedule and i'm not reliable to group with. I do always
enjoy crafting and if I could find a game like EVE with a good
population but in the fantasy world where I could make a name for myself
by crafting, then i'd join it in a heart beat.
I should really
go to an SWG emulator for real . . . but if a natural successor came out
for SWG, i'd try to carve a niche for myself. Of course, i won't have
the time to really succeed, but you know, it would be fun while it
lasted.
Did you "work" for this notoriety or buy your way to it? This is how P2W can effect PvE.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
It doesn't bother me....I know PVPers hate it but I mostly play PVE and I don't care how quickly other level with XP potions or whatever else they sell in the shop....THose items are never a temptation for me.
P2W is not traditionally huge advantages.. typically they are small QoL things. People who have the biggest issue are people who are broke... Someone who has disposable income, its not that big a deal.
That could certainly apply to someone who is broke, but it's not exclusively attributed to them.
It doesn't matter how much money I might have at any given time, If I have the choice of spending $1000 dollars on advantages in a P2W game or spend said $1000 buying several games (and even one or two other platforms) my choice is very clearly the latter.
It's not really about how much/little money I have, it's more about how much value can i get for that money.
It bothers me more that many just don't get it,it is not like you need a rocket scientist degree to figure it out,geesh you don't even need a basket weaving course to figure it out.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
It bothers me only so far as P2W (and other excessively monetised) games are worse than they otherwise could have been.
And I've got no issue with spending money on a game that I enjoy, but I want value for that money... i.e. there is no way in hell I am rewarding developers / publishers for putting (for example) an XP booster in the store instead of a simple option (or cheat code) in the game.
As for the time vs. money argument:
1. You do realise these games are actively made more grindy in an effort to drive players to the cash shop (If they truly 'respected your time' they would have included options / cheat codes).
2. Where does it end? How much do you have to spend (and continue to spend) for the game to be enjoyable? An extra $100? An extra $1,000? An extra $10,000?
3. If you aren't enjoying the game as is, then why are you playing it?
It bothers me more that many just don't get it,it is not like you need a rocket scientist degree to figure it out,geesh you don't even need a basket weaving course to figure it out.
Perhaps a basket weaving course would have taught you to put a space after a comma.
Also, this thread refutes your point because responses are varied and nuanced. There are several different reasons why it bothers other people.
Catch me streaming at twitch.tv/cryomatrix You can see my sci-fi/WW2 book recommendations.
Which do you prefer: Everyone is charged 15 bucks a month and gets the same Ford Mustang that they can upgrade through completing challenges.
Or.... Its free no subscription and everyone gets a Ford fiesta. Spend 10 bucks and you can put a spoiler on the fiesta. Spend a thousand and you can upgrade it to the mustang. Spend 10 thousand and you can add warp drive to the mustang.
P2W only really bothers me in the type of people in brings in to play the game... much the way power gamers bother me. They don't play to enjoy the game and all that went into it, and often get in the way of those who are. They play to get everything as fast as possible, WTFPWN, then leave and try to ebay the account only to come onto these boards and complain that the game sucks.
I also don't like the idea of having to buy stuff that isn't obtainable in the game any other way.
In terms of P2W to speed things along, it doesn't bother me. Many people don't have 4 hours a day to grind mobs for loot and gold. If they can buy gold to get what they need, more power to them.
I had three accounts in DAoC. I could powerlevel myself or friends, make my own gold farming groups, provide my group with all available buffs in RvR, etc. Is that considered P2W? Many would say no, but if I took that extra $30 a month in subscription money and bought the gold, people would cry.
It doesn't bother me at all. I do spend some on the games I really like gw2 and spaceborne just to support their costs. But really if you let your fun be determined by others I feel for you. I drive a Lil honda civic. I don't mind if my friends get a Vett etc at all. I still get their .
P2W is not traditionally huge advantages.. typically they are small QoL things. People who have the biggest issue are people who are broke... Someone who has disposable income, its not that big a deal.
Cash shops usually sell things like larger backpacks, heal potions, XP bonuses, etc. That's a pretty big advantage over time because these things allow players to push the limits more. So over a week, one player can't push their limits of play, another can do so for an hour, another for 5 hours, another for 40 hours a week, and so on. That's a huge advantage being bought by those with the money and the will. And a huge disadvantage for those who can't afford to keep up with the Joneses.
And it gets much worse when you consider the top spenders grouping up for the top rewards in the game.
It doesn't bother me at all. I do spend some on the games I really like gw2 and spaceborne just to support their costs. But really if you let your fun be determined by others I feel for you. I drive a Lil honda civic. I don't mind if my friends get a Vett etc at all. I still get their .
In multiplayer games, it is ALL about playing with others. Maybe not directly 100% of the time, but I've never been sniped then tea-bagged in any single player game. I've never lost out on a resource I was heading for, either.
Good, average, or bad player interactions are what set "multiplayer games" apart from single player games, right? If you solve a problem by logging off (avoidance), then you're effected
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
So many games based around this, Arche Age for example but Trion ruined it so bad I couldn't have even stayed on the game for a year or longer without having several premium accounts and buying stuff from the cash shop.
Monopoly, for example, it is essential that all start on an even footing and either progress or regress from there. If one player starts with more cash than the others he/she is more likely to win.
So I guess it used to bother me, but hasn't for quite a few years now.
Right in terms of playing monopoly, a person who plays 16 hours a day compared to a person with a job, can have 10 dice rolls first before the other person gets a dice roll.
See how that works?
Yeah, I do see how that works, you set up a point that has nothing to do with what I said and throw in a sorry ass excuse about having a job.
I was in the Marines when I started gaming and I work full time now, I managed to still enjoy games even when I could not play for a year(s) because I was deployed. This bullshit about "having a job" thousands of gamers have jobs and still enjoy gaming. On one hand, I am proud of you earning your way, on the other, quit crying and deal with it. Does not playing all day slow progression? Sure it does, does it matter? It sure does not.
See how that works?
If you want a new idea, go read an old book.
In order to be insulted, I must first value your opinion.
Time = money and money = time. They can easily be converted. The smartest are those who when they sleep = money.
But the money part is NOT equal. Your time = money is not the same as my time = money.
For me it is all about choices. Time is finite. Everyone gets 24 hours each day. No more, no less. What everyone chooses to do with those hours is all on those making the choice. Unfortunately, we don't get to choose our salary. That is where the inequality lies.
People chose to get married, to have children. People choose to work 80 hours a week jobs. People choose Netflix or playing sports over gaming.
When all is said and done, we all have the same 24 hours each and every day
One of the greater logic failures, few of us really get to choose what we do with our lives, most decisions are done more of necessity, based on decisions long past, and often outside of our control than anything else.
It is often descibed as destiny, Divine province or sometimes, shit luck.
In the present we basically react to everything which came before to determine the outcome today and influence our futures.
We don't even all get the same amount of time, some live to 100, some get snuffed at 38 (age my best friend died on his bedroom floor from an unexpected massive heart attack while his family was away on vacation)....and no one knows the time or the season.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
keep in mind just like censoring does not bother some people cause it does not effect them , it will continue too grow in cost as it accepted. company's don't want work harder then they have to for money so if they can make a cheap product that they can make millions from cash shops they will.
the issue that people gloss over when they say does not effect me or just ignore it , is when sale don't give them easy profits anymore they make the game less fun in till you " pay " too enjoy it again and some people don't want look for the next game to enjoy or their game they enjoyed was too niche for them too just play something else.
i have no problem with p2w. been spending money in games for awhile now. i play for fun. no ego issue at all. i dont pvp. so if i have fun spending money, which i do, and i dont pvp then who am i bothering then?
Comments
"We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." SR Covey
I dont think exp boosts are p2w. Only gear is p2w imo
For me it is all about choices. Time is finite. Everyone gets 24 hours each day. No more, no less. What everyone chooses to do with those hours is all on those making the choice. Unfortunately, we don't get to choose our salary. That is where the inequality lies.
People chose to get married, to have children. People choose to work 80 hours a week jobs. People choose Netflix or playing sports over gaming.
When all is said and done, we all have the same 24 hours each and every day
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
It was awesome in SWG. I came into the game via some RL friends and was handed a bunch of special resources and was able to make top level weapons. I had a weapons shop and repeat customers. It was absolutely fantastic.
If you're going to implement crafting then you need people to be known for their crafting. I was a gunsmith and was known for it. In EVE I created ships for other people and would have repeat customers.
In Entropia, given that there are shops and auction houses, it is difficult to establish yourself as a crafter as very few things in the game are in demand. Also, since price is the only thing that matters and there's no such thing as different quality, selling stuff is only about price.
I could conceivably construct weapons that are in demand but there is a lot of other concurrent crafters.
Overall, I like the ability to play with people and the ability to not have to. I have a busy schedule and i'm not reliable to group with. I do always enjoy crafting and if I could find a game like EVE with a good population but in the fantasy world where I could make a name for myself by crafting, then i'd join it in a heart beat.
I should really go to an SWG emulator for real . . . but if a natural successor came out for SWG, i'd try to carve a niche for myself. Of course, i won't have the time to really succeed, but you know, it would be fun while it lasted.
Did you "work" for this notoriety or buy your way to it? This is how P2W can effect PvE.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
Perhaps a basket weaving course would have taught you to put a space after a comma.
Also, this thread refutes your point because responses are varied and nuanced. There are several different reasons why it bothers other people.
You can see my sci-fi/WW2 book recommendations.
Everyone is charged 15 bucks a month and gets the same Ford Mustang that they can upgrade through completing challenges.
Or....
Its free no subscription and everyone gets a Ford fiesta. Spend 10 bucks and you can put a spoiler on the fiesta. Spend a thousand and you can upgrade it to the mustang. Spend 10 thousand and you can add warp drive to the mustang.
Mend and Defend
That's a pretty big advantage over time because these things allow players to push the limits more.
So over a week, one player can't push their limits of play, another can do so for an hour, another for 5 hours, another for 40 hours a week, and so on.
That's a huge advantage being bought by those with the money and the will. And a huge disadvantage for those who can't afford to keep up with the Joneses.
And it gets much worse when you consider the top spenders grouping up for the top rewards in the game.
It does matter, a lot.
Once upon a time....
Good, average, or bad player interactions are what set "multiplayer games" apart from single player games, right? If you solve a problem by logging off (avoidance), then you're effected
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
So many games based around this, Arche Age for example but Trion ruined it so bad I couldn't have even stayed on the game for a year or longer without having several premium accounts and buying stuff from the cash shop.
I was in the Marines when I started gaming and I work full time now, I managed to still enjoy games even when I could not play for a year(s) because I was deployed. This bullshit about "having a job" thousands of gamers have jobs and still enjoy gaming. On one hand, I am proud of you earning your way, on the other, quit crying and deal with it. Does not playing all day slow progression? Sure it does, does it matter? It sure does not.
See how that works?
If you want a new idea, go read an old book.
In order to be insulted, I must first value your opinion.
It is often descibed as destiny, Divine province or sometimes, shit luck.
In the present we basically react to everything which came before to determine the outcome today and influence our futures.
We don't even all get the same amount of time, some live to 100, some get snuffed at 38 (age my best friend died on his bedroom floor from an unexpected massive heart attack while his family was away on vacation)....and no one knows the time or the season.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
the issue that people gloss over when they say does not effect me or just ignore it , is when sale don't give them easy profits anymore they make the game less fun in till you " pay " too enjoy it again and some people don't want look for the next game to enjoy or their game they enjoyed was too niche for them too just play something else.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4K5fbQ1-zps
Or how is it rich people's fault other are poor. These victim hood blame game get more and more annoying.