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Why PC Games must incorporate more RNG to evolve and survive
BruceYee
Member EpicPosts: 2,556
Human beings as a species always strives for more in everything we do. When we accomplish one goal we almost immediately set another one to work towards. It is almost a built in human function in a lot of us to always want more, better life, better wife(j/k) etc etc.
PC games started off and to this day has stayed for the most part locked into a "fixed numbers" philosophy in every aspect from gameplay to the cash shop with the few exceptions of p2w games. "Fixed numbers" in gameplay determines the basics in combat as a 1 + 1 formula for both programming and providing the player with specific predetermined outcomes. The predetermined outcomes in all types of games in the PC, Console and mobile area create the "meta" which for the most part determines the most effective characters in specific scenarios or in some games every single situation. There is where I feel the problem lies and why the "fixed numbers" philosophy worked in 1999 because those were simpler times, but 2019 is extremely outdated and needs a BOOST.
Unpredictable outcomes is the reason why sports and gambling are so popular and have been since they were created hundreds/thousands of years ago. Not knowning what will happen + the feeling of winning is something I'm sure all of us agree is an amazing experience whatever that "win" may be. Gaming still has that in some areas but sadly a lot of it lies in cash shops and has since developer's realized people are willing to spend for that feeling.
I'm going to give a few examples of when I feel RNG improved gameplay and when it does not.
Marvel Heroes - Heroes that used to drop from regular mobs at launch.
GOOD - cause it gave people a sense of real winning when a hero dropped.
Heroes used to drop in Marvel heroes as regular drops from any mob when the game came out but they quickly changed it. The reason for the change is unknown, maybe it was Marvel who wanted to make money from selling heroes or maybe they wanted people to "grind" more in-game who knows. I got the feeling it was greed but they were already selling loot cards and costumes so why not at least keep SOME basic heroes as drops for new players? Happy players who feel a company is being generous may be inclined to spend money.
RIFT - Orphiel's $100 mount crate.
GOOD & BAD - GOOD cause they got the motivation to create nice looking mounts but bad for what I mention below.
Trion added $100 loot crate with some of the best looking mounts in the game but after some "backlash" Trion aka Hartsman INC COMPLETELY removed the crates from the game. Rather than reduce the price or add the crates of the ALREADY CREATED mounts as in-game rewards they just shelved the crates entirely. By this time in RIFT's life the only people left playing the game were people who really loved it so why in the heck not at least add them as event rewards or something to keep the players you have left happy.
Vanilla WoW - Shaman Windfury Proc
GOOD - Unpredictable combat outcome that leaves both the winner and loser on the same page.
OG Windfurry proc could down multiple players in a few seconds with a strong 2h IF it proc'd. If it didn't proc the shaman was usually pissed and the enemy most likely killed them. Either way it was a mutual understanding that the outcome was soley determined by the RNG god.
All P2W and non P2W cash shop RNG
BAD - For the gaming culture but good for developers trying to make that cash money.
Most mobile games are guilty of some form of p2w either by creating power strength locked behind an "X" amount of money spent or "X" amount of life hours spent <--- "time is money, friend".
Mobile gamers are starting to wake up to cash grab after many years and there may be a mobile games crash coming in the future. Mobile games have also been sucking up the "new talent" aka right out of school people since mobile games became the new thing.
HotS - Loot crates locked behind level gains.
BAD - Levels eventually require too much xp
Each level gain increases amount of xp needed to get to the next level which increases amount of time it takes to earn loot crates which is technically the only reward outside of events that players have to look forward to.
ESO - Million player loot crate dungeon event
GOOD - Amazing rewards for grouping and playing the game.
ESO had a dungeon running event when they hit the 10 million player mark. The reward once per day per character was a loot box that could contain purple recipes, housing items, costumes, pets, and even the grand prize of a house. I played the entire event every day and got every reward except for the house. This was a true Willy Wonka golden ticket scenario where everyone was hoping for the ticket but all the other rewards were so good they were enough to keep you satisfied. They shelved this idea even though if they incorporated it into their regular game with rotating rewards would probably have increased their player numbers cause who doesn't like winning free stuff just for playing the game?
The examples I gave above show how some decisions for game improving RNG use can be completely destroyed by another.
What I'd eventually like to see is a game that does not follow the "fixed numbers" formula and tries making a game with combat based completely on random RNG. A game that creates interesting characters you can get immersed in without the feeling that you are playing some underpowered because no fixed numbers means no meta.
I always wanted a turn based Blizzard game with all of their characters kind of like a turn based HotS but fantasize that it will have completely random combat RNG. Even a character like Moroes can defeat Medivh cause he got lucky by throwing a knife at just the right time just like in real life. How about if Deckard accidently uttered in the heat of battle a previously unknown spell and defeats Diablo? That could be a game that could be played indefinitely like slot machines cause you will be playing the game to play the characters you love with unknown outcomes every single time.
Do any of you have either good or bad examples of RNG use in games you've played worth mentioning? Please post them below.
Comments
If you are holding out for the perfect game, the only game you play will be the waiting one.
https://www.blackdesertonline.com/
If you want a new idea, go read an old book.
In order to be insulted, I must first value your opinion.
I am so good, I backstabbed your face!
I propose a game design based solely on RNG for the purpose of creating unexpected outcomes that isn't tied in to the cash shop/rmt. Combat that is unpredictable just like REAL combat would mean that content could be played indefinitely cause the outcome of every fight wouldn't be the same. Development could be focused on creating meaningful things like a variety of skills for different personal preferences rather than designing gameplay solely for the purpose of selling you stuff. RNG systems that currently exist are not being used in the right way IMO in certain games that could be so much better like ESO.
Thanks for the recom though.
Even if they made a game that was 'worth' subbing to it wouldnt retain subscribers. Too many F2P games out there that you can get away with not paying a sub to play.
GRAND scale 'epic' games NEED lots of players. Why do you thin so many people think these games that just come out are so fun? because there are a lot of other people around. Once the rush goes away and it empties out its miraculous how those games arent fun anymore.
While other people in MMOS is sometimes over rated its still all balance. most people dont care if there are a lot of people...until there arent.
So basically these companies need to generate revenue. its too late to put the genie back in the bottle. I am actually surprised most arent full on P2W. But I guess they realize that the few people left still playing MMOs do in fact still have enough integrity and self control not to go all in with it. So its tempered with some boundary pushing. But I am sure if full scale P2W was more profitable (even with fewer players) many games left standing would utilize it.
Its all a matter of degrees, as long as your not 'the worst' then you have some leeway.
I am not sure that is what you are talking about here, the events do not seem difficult to me, but perhaps they are harder than I think? Also humanity are strivers when they have an incentive to strive for, take that away and they tend to wallow. Too many free prizes may run counter to what you espouse you want in a MMO.
But over all a good idea In moderation.
I wish that PoE reduced the rate of uniques to 10% and made them more powerful and to scale with level. But alas, the purpose of uniques in PoE is really to allow for unique builds .. . . .so it works.
You can see my sci-fi/WW2 book recommendations.
The developers create the entire game world. They determine what they give you and what is "too much". It is a belief set by developers that you "have to work hard" for rewards. They are the masters of their universe which does not need to have any real world rules or limitations yet for some reason to reach certain goals we must work for months/years or PAY. Having just those two options makes it seem dishonest since they created it that way. Like I said another post in 1999-2005 maybe that was fine and it appealed to the majority of gamers but don't think it still works out the same in 2019.
I'm more than happy to see the former injected in to more games. Not so much with the latter.
In pve again there is a winner loser,mostly the npc is the loser but if that came down to being unpredictable,then say perhaps a 50/50 split would not fly ever.It pretty much only works with an elite boss or something similar.As for trash mobs then we EXPECT a predictable outcome of at least a 90% WR.
FFXI as per usual my stating already came as close to perfecting rng for combat.The game uses a curve so that you have a sort of % to hit with both magic and melee and ranged combat but also the chance in close to be interrupted and therefore also miss.
Games will ALWAYS be based on mathematical equations when npc's are involved so it all comes down to how well the formula's are designed and as i said FFXI's were near perfection.SO unless you can figure on a BETTER formula to use than what FFXI already uses,then it is more likely to get worse than better as we see in most mmorpg's relying almost entirely on the gear progression.Gear should NOT have a progression,gear choice should be dependent on the foes you are facing,an area of design almost entirely failed by all developers.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
"Luck is what happens when preparation meets opportunity" has its merits in gaming, as gambling creates an addictive and indefinite goal. Although I would say that "Success is what happens when preparation meets opportunity" is more appropriate for gaming. When you are put into an environment where you get to feel like your actions can have both, expected and unexpected results, you fulfill two categories of gratification at the same time. The balancing act seems to be the difficult part for game developers.
That's entirely predictable, and just no fun.
This topic includes all forms of RMT so I'll just go with combat for now.
Combat:
Every time a player enters combat, they should do so knowing that things could go terribly wrong. Or very fortunately right!
But they should also have an idea of their potential victory, or defeat. And it all should be based on your ability vs. your opponent's.
I like the idea of randomized hit chances and damage, a base "fixed at present" number plus a randomizer.
And I like the idea of Critical Hits and Fumbles.
But all of this should be based on the current skills and stats.
(I love the idea of adding stats to the formula, so an attack might be based on weapon skill plus Dexterity, Strength, or Agility, depending on the weapon. And that's compared to the defensive skill, Parry Skill plus Dexterity or Dodge Skill plus Agility. And then you compare the two and get a chance to hit. Similarly you do damage, mage spells, etc.)
Then Criticals come into affect. They too should be weighted by skill and ability from both sides.
So you have the usual attack chance and damage (both partially randomized), modified by the opponents abilities, and then the possibility of Crits that can make or ruin your day (but based on your known foundation of Skills and Stats.
And ALL of the above is already modified by your, and your opponents, choices, skills, and natural ability in the form of Stats in coming up with the Die Roll.
So equal opponents have a basic, smallish chance of a Crit or Fumble, weaker opponents give you a better chance, and stronger opponents a weaker chance.
This gives the player plenty of opportunity to recognize their chances of victory or defeat, and also the knowledge that they can always win, given luck vs. the opponent's power.
As in "you mean there's a chance?" and "your chances aren't good."
Just for fun, lets add in "Luck, Be a Lady tonight."
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X69P_Vce9vw
Once upon a time....
The Paper and Pencil D&D game had a great way of doing this.
Randomized, but based on critter type and power.
For things like Artifacts found in the game world, perhaps places of power (lower Dungeon Levels, Ruins, Cemeteries, ancient mines of powerful Ancients, and the like) should have a lot to do with where powerful Artifacts are hidden away.
Once upon a time....