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Nobody wants an AI Game/World Master?
Vermillion_Raventhal
Member EpicPosts: 4,198
Satisfaction with farming NPC spawns or running hero journey quest/dungeons/raiding is baffling to me. Not to say those weren't or aren't ok things to do in MMORPG. I just don't think it should be the limit of what MMORPG.
I barely hear anyone talk about the idea. I know the tech isn't here for true AI but scripted procedurally content or some precursors to be used being pushed seems like a good idea.
I barely hear anyone talk about the idea. I know the tech isn't here for true AI but scripted procedurally content or some precursors to be used being pushed seems like a good idea.
Comments
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
Seriously though, procedural quest have to start someone. No genre is really focusing on them. But I think some of growing pains would be pass if this genre really focused on them years ago. Considering the quality and content of the typical MMORPG quest there isn't much of a step down.
I can't imagine how much time it take to make all the asset for a world which is constant changing.
You could make NPC's smarter: like they run and get help more and stab healers in the back etc but imagine the player response.
You could make a dungeon master AI that organises NPC activities like roaming hordes and compete well enough, like the EQ Next stuff shown off.
Generating content is another matter, I dont know if there is a successful existing example or analogy to this.
https://colab.research.google.com/github/nickwalton/AIDungeon/blob/master/AIDungeon_2.ipynb
It uses GTTP2 and is worth a pause if you play nicely. I've had adventures on Tau Ceti as a research scientist: discovering a lava world, a ghost world, and a world of warring territorial giant lizards called "Goliaths" and small humans. I got trapped in a library (some kind of Insterstellar-like Minkowsky spacetime, doubtless) and read "The Book of Shadows" which caused me to become trapped on its pages, getting free only with the help of a vial of the author's blood, becoming a vampire in the process. After accepting my fate, the game declared I was now mortal once more and the game had ended.
Here's the start to another adventure I had:
You are Indiana Jones. You are looking for the Lost City of Atlantis. You recruit
your friend to help summon Nur Ab Saal. Nazis are looking for you. You arrive
in Greece and find a small town called Sotakos. It is inhabited by Greeks who
speak Greek. The Germans have already conquered this area, but they don't know
it yet
> say to a passer by in Greek "would you happen to know where I could find some olives for dinner?"
"Sure, but what do you want?"
"I just wanted to tell you that if you ever need anything, you can always ask
me".
"Thanks!"
You walk through the streets of Sotakos
> Ask my friend Marian what she thinks of Sotakos
"It's a nice place, but not much has changed since the time of my grandparents".
"What about the people? Do they still live there?"
"Well, they're not really living anymore. They've been dead for years now".
> "So you think Atlantis was inhabited by ghosts of the past"
"Yeah, and it's pretty sad actually. The only reason why the city is still standing
is because the government of the area is very generous with their resources
and so far nobody has tried to take it over or even make any kind of attempt
at taking back the land"
> "Why do you think everyone died?"
"Because they were all greedy ******** who didn't give a **** about anyone else.
If you don't like something, then **** off and leave us alone".
"But how come the city is still standing? It looks abandoned"
> /censor off
Censor is now disabled.
> book a room and spend the night on the edge of Atlantis
You decide to stay overnight in Atlantis as it will be easier to get around the
city than walking all the way from one end to another. You buy a cheap hotel
room near the edge of the city and set up camp on the outskirts of the city
> "Maybe there's a submarine pilot who can take us to Atlantis in the morning"
Marian says "No, I'm sorry, but we have no submarines. We used to have them before
the war, but the government destroyed most of them during the war".
You laugh "Oh well, maybe next time"
> go out and eat in Sotokos
The next day you head out into the city and try to find a restaurant that serves
food from Atlantis. You manage to find one called 'Atlantis' which seems to
serve decent food. You order a burger and fries and pay for it
> sit down and eat and take note of the ambiance
As you are eating you notice that the restaurant is rather empty. There are a
few tourists sitting outside, but nothing more. You look around and see a lot
of graffiti all over the walls of the building. Some of it is rather creative,
others are simply crude
> examine the graffiti
You notice that the graffiti consists mainly of drawings of fish, birds and other
animals. You also notice that the writing is written in different languages
including English, Latin and Greek. You also notice that there are several references
to the city of Atlantis itself
> read the references to Atlantis
A lot of the graffiti refers to Atlantis and its inhabitants. One of these references
is to an ancient civilization known as the Minoans. This reference appears to
refer to the city of Atlantis, which was located in the Aegean Sea
> "Marian, I think we need to book a plane over the Aegean"
"That would be great! But you'll have to find someone who knows how to fly a
plane to help you. And if you need help, you should talk to our waiter, he's
a good guy and can probably point you in the right direction"
> look at Marian distrustfully
You continue to stare at her suspiciously while you eat. She continues to ignore
you and talks to the waiter
> say to the waiter in Greek "would you happen to know how to fly a plane?"
"Sure, but what do you want?"
"I just wanted to tell you that if you ever need anything, you can always ask
me".
"Thanks!".
You return to your table and begin to eat again. Suddenly you hear a loud noise
coming from the sea
> look at the sea
You watch as the waves crash against the rocks below and break them apart. You
watch as the water rushes towards the shore and fills the gap between the buildings.
You watch as the ocean rises up and engulfs the entire island
> "The island is sinking!"
...sadly, the game seems to have crashed here.
"The simple is the seal of the true and beauty is the splendor of truth" -Subrahmanyan Chandrasekhar
Authored 139 missions in Vendetta Online and 6 tracks in Distance
High end graphics, high cost, time consumption to make and greed.
I don't think cohesive AI has any room to drive up cost.
Besides we already have this in the form of loooog solo videos that takes the player out of the group environment. This is part of what is killing mmorpgs anyway.
Since all we have are Crow funded and rip off Asian games anyway, all that's left is talk.... so I guess we can talk about this too.
It seems like every single idea a dev comes up with now is lazy work,all they seem to be doing is looking for an easier cheaper,cost effective way to make games.
I already got to witness maybe the best AI of any mmorpg inside of FFXI but of course i saw lot's of room for improvement.Loads of great ideas scripted into the npcs/mobs but as often the case,they din't go far enough because imo the obvious reason is time and effort spent to go that extra mile with scripting is too costly,well in THEIR minds it's too costly from a greedy standpoint.
Like why put 20 different scripts into a mob when you can just put 1-2,most people don't even understand it and most won't complain because they are too busy worrying about loot and levels than the actual game design and how it could be better.
OH OH OH ,is that an orange drop a Purple drop,seems the mind of the modern gamer is extremely superficial.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
The idea to do it properly would still require some effort that i do not expect to ever see in my lifetime but is not really THAT much effort,devs are simply reluctant to show much effort at all.
The way it would work would also cater to the GROUPING or size of group ideas,again really a sort of scaling idea.However instead of simple lazy work like adding a % to hit points or defense etc etc,we could have a data base of scripts that would first check the group size.
Reason and how it can work/help the solo group agenda?Well if the combat/character abilities design is done really well "seldom happens"you would NEED a group of decent size to cover all bases of not only the Trinity but elemental and type abilities such as piercing or fire versus water etc etc,you catch the drift.
Now if a player is simply solo,there is absolutely no way they could cover all the bases needed,what if that player cannot cast fire but that is the only element the mob is weak to?What if a dagger is the best weapon to sue needing a piercing ability but all your character can wield is a sword?
Well the checks would first see what the player or group is capable of and then set the scripts accordingly to offer the same challenge no matter the group size.This is way better than simply scaling the numbers.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.aidungeon
"The simple is the seal of the true and beauty is the splendor of truth" -Subrahmanyan Chandrasekhar
Authored 139 missions in Vendetta Online and 6 tracks in Distance
It can simulate and beat humans at things like chess because it is a very narrow and computationally heavy activity. But when you throw many diverse tasks at it with a lot of possibilities each it craps the bed.
That's not to say that games can't be improved with some AI routines used for some narrow tasks and there are games that do some of that already. Even games as simple as EA's NHL series have used adaptive routines to learn your patterns and adapt to counter... up to a point, because it's pretty easy for a human player to adapt to the game's adaptations and still beat the crap out of it.
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
Those with the skill and abilities to win will gladly stomp and destroy anyone and everyone around them.
As such, an AI computer, would do the same, which would simply end up with game content only those able to beat the AI would have a chance to win.
See it's not that the program can't calculate the next move, it's that it can, and can do so faster than humans ever could, so the whole system needs to be dummied down to the point that players can beat it, but to make that happen, all the moves need to choreographed, and things need to be slowed down, so that players can memorize them, and learn them, and finally win after many tries.
However, once they win, it simply becomes a recipe that needs to be followed to ensure victory.
If they put in an AI, players would never win, it's as simple as that, because the AI would always play at the top of it's abilities. That would not end well for humans.
A Real AI would only work in a single player game, where the AI was programmed not to win, but to challenge, but again for that to happen, the AI would first need to know the skill level of the Opponents, like a Glicko Scale for Chess, so that it could provide a challenging encounter that was not too hard.
Game designers and developers use Testers to achieve these results.
But, this is why Chess was used for AI testing, the AI could be scaled to the Glicko Level of opponent so that it could offer a solid and challenging game to the opponent, without just crushing them outright, but there would be no straight up system to victory.
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED