Ashes of Creation Wants Your Feedback Ahead of Next Dev Discussion - MMORPG.com

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Ashes of Creation Wants Your Feedback Ahead of Next Dev Discussion - MMORPG.com

Ashes of Creation wants your feedback ahead of their next dev discussion.

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Albatroes

What's the point of gear if you're going to be scaled to whatever region or if the region scales to you.....ESO and GW2 both suffer from the same progression problem in that since everything is 'relevant' there's no real 'progression' past a certain point. This results in any new content being added to potentially be useless if the rewards aren't better than previous, but then previous content, all-be-it relevant, is then in turn useless. In short, scaling is just lazy game design. People say it keeps older zones relevant, but there are better ways to do it, like just adding higher level content to sections of older areas.

Lukzfresh

Everquest 2 did it well. You “mentor” down to your group level. Otherwise they would not get experience from group content, quest, or mob killing.

Sovrath

Albatroes said:

What's the point of gear if you're going to be scaled to whatever region or if the region scales to you.....ESO and GW2 both suffer from the same progression problem in that since everything is 'relevant' there's no real 'progression' past a certain point. This results in any new content being added to potentially be useless if the rewards aren't better than previous, but then previous content, all-be-it relevant, is then in turn useless.



In short, scaling is just lazy game design. People say it keeps older zones relevant, but there are better ways to do it, like just adding higher level content to sections of older areas.

Just because someone develops something you don't like doesn't make it "lazy game design."

And your concern/complaint is only valid for those people who play for "rewards."

That's not a knock on "rewards." I like rewards just fine. Same with leveling.

But, while it's always fun to get a new shiny or to upgrade or get a new level, some people really like the idea of just experiencing content without always getting a "ding" and something new.

Guild Wars 2 works for people who are after a somewhat different experience. And while I can't say that I love Elder Scrolls Online, at least their current system makes their game world a bit more world like. Instead of just keeping people in the same place until they can move and then making the rest of the game world a ghost town because everyone has outleveled it.

Heck, I would say any system that keeps the entire game world viable is NOT lazy game design.

So again, it all depends on what motivates you. I can easily see why people would hate level scaling. No question. But some love it as some actually hate leveling. Cue the complaints on the Lord of the Rings Online forums when they say that they are adding x levels.

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Amathe

I liked City of Heroes' system. Worth a look to see how it operated.

jahlon

In games where you can change your main class (FFXIV/AA) then level scaling makes sense if you want to hurry someone along.

Not 100% sure what the point of level scaling is going to be with a game with only one main class and mostly open world dungeons.

I guess we'll see.

G3Nexis

Remali said:

No just no

Id rather have no lvls at all then having lvl scaling because whats the point of lvling with a system like that

Uhhh... The point of leveling is to progress past the low level content? It sounds like level scaling only brings you down to the level of the area you are in. You do not scale UP in level only down so you can play with friends that may be lower level than you without hindering their EXP game.

I have played many games that did this and typically you have a slight edge over the people you scaled down to just based on your higher level gear. Odd's are the gear will scale down as well but you may have special stats or bonuses on your higher gear that you could not have received when low lvl.

Albatroes

Sovrath said:

Albatroes said:

What's the point of gear if you're going to be scaled to whatever region or if the region scales to you.....ESO and GW2 both suffer from the same progression problem in that since everything is 'relevant' there's no real 'progression' past a certain point. This results in any new content being added to potentially be useless if the rewards aren't better than previous, but then previous content, all-be-it relevant, is then in turn useless.







In short, scaling is just lazy game design. People say it keeps older zones relevant, but there are better ways to do it, like just adding higher level content to sections of older areas.

Just because someone develops something you don't like doesn't make it "lazy game design."



And your concern/complaint is only valid for those people who play for "rewards."



That's not a knock on "rewards." I like rewards just fine. Same with leveling.



But, while it's always fun to get a new shiny or to upgrade or get a new level, some people really like the idea of just experiencing content without always getting a "ding" and something new.



Guild Wars 2 works for people who are after a somewhat different experience. And while I can't say that I love Elder Scrolls Online, at least their current system makes their game world a bit more world like. Instead of just keeping people in the same place until they can move and then making the rest of the game world a ghost town because everyone has outleveled it.



Heck, I would say any system that keeps the entire game world viable is NOT lazy game design.



So again, it all depends on what motivates you. I can easily see why people would hate level scaling. No question. But some love it as some actually hate leveling. Cue the complaints on the Lord of the Rings Online forums when they say that they are adding x levels.

Maybe you're right. Maybe companies are just giving the silent majority what they want. Power progression has always been a joke with a majority of these mmorpgs over the past decade anyway, with the true 'end-game' shifting to just collecting vanity. I suppose collecting mounts/outfits/pets wasn't the real reason I enjoyed mmorpgs.

goboygo

level scaling is an immersion breaker.  One of the things I most disliked about GW2.   

Wizardry

There seems to ALWAYS be a sense of misconception.

I always read stuff about WHY people are buying these games.Then i hear stuff like "it is the type of game they want to play" or some variation of  type statement.

YOU do NOT know what you are getting until you actually pay for the game and then play it for a long time.Even if you figured afterwards the game is not what you expected,it is TOO LATE,that dev is already bragging about their high  sales numbers because you already bought the game.

Devs do NOT give you what you "silently "want,not like they call every single gamer up and ask for their opinion on what they want.Their decisions revolve around money and no matter what route they go for,they then work on the marketing and all their connections and avenues to bait you into buying their game.Geesh i bet there are a LOT of people who just randomly buy 1/2/3 new games on Steam every pay cheque.

Scaling is just garbage,tired of explaining it,you should be able to figure it out,if you care about immersion at all.

Twisting words around also does not make a point valid.If someone says a design is lazy but also hate it,that does NOT mean they are saying the design is lazy because they dislike the design.

Bottom line is that AOC is NOT an official game yet,until it is then it is just smoke n mirrors.You want to get people on board,deliver a finished game of quality,then we know the developer has what it takes.

Valentina

Why is it immersion breaking? I would think being able to raze entire zones because you outleveled them more immersion breaking. I think scaling/equalization incentivizes people to return to old zones more than not scaling, at least the content is fun and has more parity between you and your lower level friends that way. Ultimately I think it creates for a better, more balanced gameplay experience.

Albatroes

Valentina said:

Why is it immersion breaking? I would think being able to raze entire zones because you outleveled them more immersion breaking. I think scaling/equalization incentivizes people to return to old zones more than not scaling, at least the content is fun and has more parity between you and your lower level friends that way.

Ultimately I think it creates for a better, more balanced gameplay experience.

Isnt that how everything tends to work? Levels are just another form of time. The higher they are, the more you deserve if you participate. You dont work a job for x amount of years just to be paid the same as someone who started day one, do you? You dont exercise everyday just to have the same endurance as someone who doesn't.

There's also nothing wrong with defending optional scaling. Plenty of games have done this with rift being one of the better ones in my opinion. There you could scale up or down if you wanted to and you had zone events that gave endgame rewards if you choice to scale down during them.

The whole point of a mmorpg is to feel powerful the more work you put in. You dont think its immersion breaking if you're killing something called a worldbreaker, get gear from it and only to be as powerful as the same wolf that was in a cave near the town you first started in? Granted, not every game does scaling the same, but having things the same number in terms of level regardless the content, just makes the content feel less important.

Talemire

No, no, no, no, no, no, no, and more no.

Albatroes

Zegaloth said:

Albatroes said:

Valentina said:

Why is it immersion breaking? I would think being able to raze entire zones because you outleveled them more immersion breaking. I think scaling/equalization incentivizes people to return to old zones more than not scaling, at least the content is fun and has more parity between you and your lower level friends that way.

Ultimately I think it creates for a better, more balanced gameplay experience.

Isnt that how everything tends to work? Levels are just another form of time. The higher they are, the more you deserve if you participate. You dont work a job for x amount of years just to be paid the same as someone who started day one, do you? You dont exercise everyday just to have the same endurance as someone who doesn't.

There's also nothing wrong with defending optional scaling. Plenty of games have done this with rift being one of the better ones in my opinion. There you could scale up or down if you wanted to and you had zone events that gave endgame rewards if you choice to scale down during them.

The whole point of a mmorpg is to feel powerful the more work you put in. You dont think its immersion breaking if you're killing something called a worldbreaker, get gear from it and only to be as powerful as the same wolf that was in a cave near the town you first started in? Granted, not every game does scaling the same, but having things the same number in terms of level regardless the content, just makes the content feel less important.

So, in your opinion it is perfectly fine for Rift to give you end game gear for killing a wolf in a world event, but not okay if the Worldbreaker gives you the same loot, or did I miss something here?

Given that zone themes were usually connected to the overarching evil of the game (usually some kind of inter-dimensional creature trying to take over a zone via a rift), it doesn't sound as far fetched. The alternative you and your friend align with is that the scaled wolf should be as strong as the worldbreaker or its underlings, does that make more sense? Thematics aside, the scaling is optional in that game vs ESO/GW2 where it is imbedded in the game's core design. If someone chooses to engage in such a system, they are rewarded, thus providing incentive to go back to those older zones and participate in the scaling. They aren't 'punished' through some arbitrary design that dictates to them what is an okay power level to be at in that particular area. There are obviously better and worse examples of optional scaling just as their are of forced scaling, but is really anyone against having more options to play a game?

Azaron_Nightblade

I like level scaling, especially if it's a voluntary thing like it was on CoH back in the day. It gives you more options, content wise. But sometimes you just want to go back to a zone and explore or the like too, without every dumb mob constantly trying to jump your bones. In which case it'd be nice to be able to toggle it off (of course with the downside that nothing gives xp or loot while you are x levels above the mobs or such).

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bcbully

Please don’t do anything like GW2.

Thanks

Kajidourden

Absolutely.  The only people who care about level scaling are the ones who just want to flex their epeen by one-shotting everything in 3/4 of the game.  

Anyone who actually cares about avoiding the stupidity that is content invalidation and planned obsolescence present in MOST major mmos (most notably WoW and FFXIV) will embrace the idea.  Gw2 and ESO both did incredible jobs making sure that nothing was ever pointless or made trivial, which can't be said for most games.

Even in games with level scaling it isn't some linear thing.  In ESO you don't go back to starter zones and fight things that take 5 minutes to kill, but you're not going to be killing them instantly with an auto-attack either.  Perfect balance.

Nanfoodle

This MMO has gone so far from the game they promised I have just stopped following it. I feel lied too and a total bait and switch here.

TheJoda

Does it matter? Is this games mmo version going to release in 2020?

Haki88

Really bad graphic and effects..... who is going to play this...

Maurgrim

Haki88 said:

Really bad graphic and effects..... who is going to play this...

So you think Unreal 4 engine produce bad graphics and effects?

Galadourn

Level scaling is a BAD idea. The core design of MMOs focuses on character development (in whatever form, i.e. gear, level, skills, etc), and with level scaling this becomes nullified.

Kajidourden

Maurgrim said:

Haki88 said:

Really bad graphic and effects..... who is going to play this...

So you think Unreal 4 engine produce bad graphics and effects?

He's right, the game so far looks like a bunch of mirror-polished surfaces with color.  There's no texturing of any kind, and the animations are absolutely horrible.  

Using UE4 =/= good graphics.

bng28

i hate the idea of being forced to scale down to a level requirement.

In an mmorpg, if everything scales to your level, then what is the point of having a level to begin with?

Whats the point of being max level fully geared if im only going to be as strong as level 15 in a level 15 area? Takes away my power, my feeling of accomplishment and progression of getting and using what i have worked for, imo.


I think the "mentor" feature would be the way to go in any mmo. Voluntarily scale down to help a lower level player, so that the lower level player will receive a benefit from the higher level, but not be getting carried or power leveled through content. Making the decision to not scale down with the mentor option, would hinder xp gain for the lower level, etc.