I've seen a few people say that Crowfall is Pay2Win and I've never seen a sign that's for sure true, just ambiguity in the descriptions that makes it possible to use to get an advantage.
Having read about buying resource nodes and guild halls it is going to start out very P2W.
If I have that wrong do expand, you know I just skim threads on games not out yet. The "you can always grind it" argument will depend very much on how long it takes to grind.
Yes, you do have that wrong. You can't buy resource nodes. I have no idea where people are getting that from. In your EK, you can't get any resources besides basic, which aren't useful for much. The best resources will be available in the campaigns with the most risk.
Guild halls can be purchased, but they do nothing but sit in your EK. EKs are not the primary focus of the game. The competition is in the campaigns, where if you want a guild hall, you will actually have to build it.
Fair points, what's this about buff statues, I got it from the post above.
They haven't been implemented yet, so this is all subject to change, but there are 2 types of statues: artifacts and relics. There are no artifacts for sale in the store, and only 2 relics. The relics you can buy are:
Arkon Greatsword Relic - Gives +crit chance for harvesting Golden Dragon Altar Relic - Doesn't specify the type of benefit
Both of these items specifically say that you can obtain them in game:
*All relics can also be found and scavenged from the Campaign Worlds.
So these aren't some exclusive thing where you can only obtain them by spending money. Furthermore, there are restrictions on their use, which you can read about in the game's FAQ. You don't just buy the relic and immediately get the benefit from it.
Relics must be placed in specific buildings in an EK. Most of those buildings don't even exist yet, but I think we'll see many of them come online in the next patch. My assumption is that we'll have to craft those buildings, but they may also be made available in the store. Players are limited to 3 artifact/relic buffs at a time and the buffs run out and need to be recharged by some in-game method.
So the basic idea is that you place the relics in specific buildings in your EK and those buffs apply to your characters no matter which world they are in. Everyone will have the ability to obtain relics by playing the game. They are meant as a way to tie EKs and Campaigns together, but in a small way that doesn't unbalance things.
These will be small buffs. With full training and gear, I can exceed 40% harvesting crit chance. The 2 or 3% I get from a relic isn't going to mean much. It's just another way for people to play the min/max game. If people want to spend money on that, and then spend more money on the building to place it in, rather than just obtaining them in game, more power to them.
So what you are saying is they sell something that gives a stat increase but it isn't P2W. Got it.
You can try to explain it away all you want but it still comes back to something very simple and that is how many will see it without any knowledge of the game or trying it.
I doubt statues and relics will even exist if they can't figure out how to keep EKs running 24/7. Just another concept they have yet to figure out after years.
WHAT IS THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN AN ARTIFACT AND A RELIC?
Artifacts are typically guild rewards. Relics are typically player rewards.
Artifacts are “World” rewards. These can only be gained by winning Campaigns. Artifacts are meaningful trophies (like the World Cup) that can be displayed in your Eternal Kingdom, that confer their blessings on all the players who own land in that Kingdom.
An example of an Artifact might be “the Anvil of Kane”, which (when placed, for example, inside a Reliquary in a Mountain Citadel) offers the “Strength of the Crescent Moon” blessing to all the players on this World.
Relics are “Player and City” rewards. Relics offer similar blessings, but can only be utilized by a smaller number of players – they can be placed inside of the buildings in the cities or villages of your Eternal Kingdom. Relics can be collected in Campaigns or crafted using rare reagents.
An example of a Relic might be “the Blade of Taerious”, which (once placed in a Chaos Temple) offers the “Gaes of Speed” blessing to the players who own land in and around a (player-built) village in your Kingdom.
So what you are saying is they sell something that gives a stat increase but it isn't P2W. Got it.
You can try to explain it away all you want but it still comes back to something very simple and that is how many will see it without any knowledge of the game or trying it.
I doubt statues and relics will even exist if they can't figure out how to keep EKs running 24/7. Just another concept they have yet to figure out after years.
Some people are of the opinion that if you can obtain it in-game, then it isn't pay to win if you can also purchase it. I mean, look at Star Citizen selling ships. That's a much bigger deal than these relics, yet there are many people who defend the practice because you can also obtain them in-game.
For the record, I'm not one of those people. I don't like having anything in the shop that gives any kind of benefit, even if you can also obtain it in game. I believe that players should have to play the game to earn the stuff they want.
That said, I'm also a realist. I understand the way the industry has gone and the difficulties game companies have in monetizing their games. In the grand scheme of things, these relics are minor buffs that won't unbalance the game. If you want to call them pay-to-win simply because you are paying for something that gives you a buff, that's fine. People can draw the line wherever they want. Black Desert has been accused of much worse and seems to be doing fine.
I would rather they have minor stuff like this that helps them to keep the game running than to have the game fold because they aren't making enough money. Yes, it could be a slippery slope and, if we see them go further down that path, then I may have to reassess my position. For now, I really don't care. 100% of the power is in the game and 99% is only in the game. If people want to pay money to obtain that 1% instead of playing the game to get it, I'm not going to sweat it.
It's the curse of B2P, once they sold all the boxes they can, they still have to pay devs, the bills AND make a profit. That's why I prefer P2P games usually
It's the curse of B2P, once they sold all the boxes they can, they still have to pay devs, the bills AND make a profit. That's why I prefer P2P games usually
I would prefer for these games to just go back to a subscription model, but people complain about that too.
It's the curse of B2P, once they sold all the boxes they can, they still have to pay devs, the bills AND make a profit. That's why I prefer P2P games usually
I would prefer for these games to just go back to a subscription model, but people complain about that too.
B2P and F2P are some of the reasons the MMORPG genre boomed and turned into the crap it is today. F2P being the worse. People don't understand the concept of " I wanna get paid for the work I do"
I've seen a few people say that Crowfall is Pay2Win and I've never seen a sign that's for sure true, just ambiguity in the descriptions that makes it possible to use to get an advantage.
Having read about buying resource nodes and guild halls it is going to start out very P2W.
If I have that wrong do expand, you know I just skim threads on games not out yet. The "you can always grind it" argument will depend very much on how long it takes to grind.
Yes, you do have that wrong. You can't buy resource nodes. I have no idea where people are getting that from. In your EK, you can't get any resources besides basic, which aren't useful for much. The best resources will be available in the campaigns with the most risk.
Guild halls can be purchased, but they do nothing but sit in your EK. EKs are not the primary focus of the game. The competition is in the campaigns, where if you want a guild hall, you will actually have to build it.
Fair points, what's this about buff statues, I got it from the post above.
They haven't been implemented yet, so this is all subject to change, but there are 2 types of statues: artifacts and relics. There are no artifacts for sale in the store, and only 2 relics. The relics you can buy are:
Arkon Greatsword Relic - Gives +crit chance for harvesting Golden Dragon Altar Relic - Doesn't specify the type of benefit
Both of these items specifically say that you can obtain them in game:
*All relics can also be found and scavenged from the Campaign Worlds.
So these aren't some exclusive thing where you can only obtain them by spending money. Furthermore, there are restrictions on their use, which you can read about in the game's FAQ. You don't just buy the relic and immediately get the benefit from it.
Relics must be placed in specific buildings in an EK. Most of those buildings don't even exist yet, but I think we'll see many of them come online in the next patch. My assumption is that we'll have to craft those buildings, but they may also be made available in the store. Players are limited to 3 artifact/relic buffs at a time and the buffs run out and need to be recharged by some in-game method.
So the basic idea is that you place the relics in specific buildings in your EK and those buffs apply to your characters no matter which world they are in. Everyone will have the ability to obtain relics by playing the game. They are meant as a way to tie EKs and Campaigns together, but in a small way that doesn't unbalance things.
These will be small buffs. With full training and gear, I can exceed 40% harvesting crit chance. The 2 or 3% I get from a relic isn't going to mean much. It's just another way for people to play the min/max game. If people want to spend money on that, and then spend more money on the building to place it in, rather than just obtaining them in game, more power to them.
It is small but it shows the direction of travel, my advice as long as a MMO does not start too P2W and you think this one is for you, is to buy and play early as a year after launch things may not look so good. But as you say until it launches we won't know exactly where it stands.
It's a tiny and brief buff that you have to sacrifice mats for and it's only for gathering. We might have different definitions of P2W
But I do agree on the start early, I stopped playing ESO when they nerfed all 'hard' content no one complained about in beta. As soon as the masses get in, every game turns into a faceroll
That's my main concern with Crowfall. That and the engine
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Thanks for all of the great posts guys, I learned a lot more about CF from the detailed explanations.
I especially liked knowing some longer (6 months) campaigns are being planned.
To be honest, no longer than 3 days ago I had NO interest in CF from the stuff I heard, then an old SWG guild mate told me I would like the crafting. Seeing as they refund your purchase up to 24 hours after you downloaded the client, I tried and I really liked what I saw and gonna stick around, probably as a crafter. Beta is not far away and if you register on their site you will be invited to try it for free and make up your own mind
So what you are saying is they sell something that gives a stat increase but it isn't P2W. Got it.
You can try to explain it away all you want but it still comes back to something very simple and that is how many will see it without any knowledge of the game or trying it.
I doubt statues and relics will even exist if they can't figure out how to keep EKs running 24/7. Just another concept they have yet to figure out after years.
Some people are of the opinion that if you can obtain it in-game, then it isn't pay to win if you can also purchase it. I mean, look at Star Citizen selling ships. That's a much bigger deal than these relics, yet there are many people who defend the practice because you can also obtain them in-game.
For the record, I'm not one of those people. I don't like having anything in the shop that gives any kind of benefit, even if you can also obtain it in game. I believe that players should have to play the game to earn the stuff they want.
That said, I'm also a realist. I understand the way the industry has gone and the difficulties game companies have in monetizing their games. In the grand scheme of things, these relics are minor buffs that won't unbalance the game. If you want to call them pay-to-win simply because you are paying for something that gives you a buff, that's fine. People can draw the line wherever they want. Black Desert has been accused of much worse and seems to be doing fine.
I would rather they have minor stuff like this that helps them to keep the game running than to have the game fold because they aren't making enough money. Yes, it could be a slippery slope and, if we see them go further down that path, then I may have to reassess my position. For now, I really don't care. 100% of the power is in the game and 99% is only in the game. If people want to pay money to obtain that 1% instead of playing the game to get it, I'm not going to sweat it.
Some people call cosmetics P2W so clearly P2W doesn't mean a whole lot.
Star Citizen seems to be following EVE where there is a player base with a lot of disposable income and time. Which might be fine for those games but doesn't apply to all. Crowfall is not like either.
I'm okay with some necessary evil but will have to see where they take it.
It is possible to make a game without going with anything that reasonable resembles P2W but that requires not only a good game people want to play but also a payment system that reflects the game design.
I'd rather a company at least try to go without questionable cash shop choices and fall back to it if not enough people are paying for the game or a sub, but that requires companies trusting their product enough to do so.
Starting with a cash shop and questionable items before there is even a game won't have a better back up option, it's just further down the slippery slope.
So what you are saying is they sell something that gives a stat increase but it isn't P2W. Got it.
You can try to explain it away all you want but it still comes back to something very simple and that is how many will see it without any knowledge of the game or trying it.
I doubt statues and relics will even exist if they can't figure out how to keep EKs running 24/7. Just another concept they have yet to figure out after years.
Some people are of the opinion that if you can obtain it in-game, then it isn't pay to win if you can also purchase it. I mean, look at Star Citizen selling ships. That's a much bigger deal than these relics, yet there are many people who defend the practice because you can also obtain them in-game.
To me, it depends on how hard it is to obtain the item and whether it's actually useful. For example, suppose that:
1) WoW allowed players to buy any green quality weapon in the game for $5, or 2) WoW allowed players to buy any purple quality weapon in the game for $5.
You could make a strong case that the latter would be pay to win, even if it was also possible to get the top raid epics by actually raiding. But the former? That's not pay to win. That's pretty useless.
There's also a huge difference between:
1) There is a critical item that you can either buy from the item mall or get by grinding for 100 hours, or 2) An item can be purcahsed in the item mall, but most players have more of it than they have any use for just in the normal course of playing the game.
The former is very pay to win. The latter would at most be a bit of a head start for brand new players.
So what you are saying is they sell something that gives a stat increase but it isn't P2W. Got it.
You can try to explain it away all you want but it still comes back to something very simple and that is how many will see it without any knowledge of the game or trying it.
I doubt statues and relics will even exist if they can't figure out how to keep EKs running 24/7. Just another concept they have yet to figure out after years.
Some people are of the opinion that if you can obtain it in-game, then it isn't pay to win if you can also purchase it. I mean, look at Star Citizen selling ships. That's a much bigger deal than these relics, yet there are many people who defend the practice because you can also obtain them in-game.
To me, it depends on how hard it is to obtain the item and whether it's actually useful. For example, suppose that:
1) WoW allowed players to buy any green quality weapon in the game for $5, or 2) WoW allowed players to buy any purple quality weapon in the game for $5.
You could make a strong case that the latter would be pay to win, even if it was also possible to get the top raid epics by actually raiding. But the former? That's not pay to win. That's pretty useless.
There's also a huge difference between:
1) There is a critical item that you can either buy from the item mall or get by grinding for 100 hours, or 2) An item can be purcahsed in the item mall, but most players have more of it than they have any use for just in the normal course of playing the game.
The former is very pay to win. The latter would at most be a bit of a head start for brand new players.
I agree to an extent, but I note that designers have developed ways of making the equivalent of a skin economy if anything can be bought that is not bound to account. That P2W element of the economy may not be there at launch, indeed the "skins" (whatever the items are) may be purely cosmetic, but they still end up creating a P2W system. BDO uses this, cosmetic and items with small bonuses are sold to other players to generate the huge amount of gold needed to upgrade end game items.
Much like Muthax said in his post above, get in before its F2P, that is when the game gets redesigned for the worse.
So what you are saying is they sell something that gives a stat increase but it isn't P2W. Got it.
You can try to explain it away all you want but it still comes back to something very simple and that is how many will see it without any knowledge of the game or trying it.
I doubt statues and relics will even exist if they can't figure out how to keep EKs running 24/7. Just another concept they have yet to figure out after years.
Some people are of the opinion that if you can obtain it in-game, then it isn't pay to win if you can also purchase it. I mean, look at Star Citizen selling ships. That's a much bigger deal than these relics, yet there are many people who defend the practice because you can also obtain them in-game.
To me, it depends on how hard it is to obtain the item and whether it's actually useful. For example, suppose that:
1) WoW allowed players to buy any green quality weapon in the game for $5, or 2) WoW allowed players to buy any purple quality weapon in the game for $5.
You could make a strong case that the latter would be pay to win, even if it was also possible to get the top raid epics by actually raiding. But the former? That's not pay to win. That's pretty useless.
There's also a huge difference between:
1) There is a critical item that you can either buy from the item mall or get by grinding for 100 hours, or 2) An item can be purcahsed in the item mall, but most players have more of it than they have any use for just in the normal course of playing the game.
The former is very pay to win. The latter would at most be a bit of a head start for brand new players.
I agree to an extent, but I note that designers have developed ways of making the equivalent of a skin economy if anything can be bought that is not bound to account. That P2W element of the economy may not be there at launch, indeed the "skins" (whatever the items are) may be purely cosmetic, but they still end up creating a P2W system. BDO uses this, cosmetic and items with small bonuses are sold to other players to generate the huge amount of gold needed to upgrade end game items.
Much like Muthax said in his post above, get in before its F2P, that is when the game gets redesigned for the worse.
Hey now, let's give Pearl Abyss their due. They designed their monetization model in right from the very start and is probably one of the more "brilliant" (in an evil genius way) aspects of the game.
Borrowing heavily from Grinding Gears Games model, they make players who wear only in game gear look like murder hobos therefore making the $30 cash store costumes (which actually aren't purely cosmetic as they have slight bonuses.
They also bury them in loot which can't even efficiently be picked up without having pets which are conveniently available for sale if one prefers to be gimped until a few can be earned in game.
Oh yes, apparently gathering pets have tiers which from what I've read the highest level one require cash shop purchases.
They didn't stop there, at launch there were starter packs, three tiers as I recall, and the original B2P price was around $29.99, though they often drop that to much lower to lure more people in.
Then they offer a monthly sub with various benefits and finally top it all off with what most every Asian game has, a top end, RNG heavy gearing system which of course can be made somewhat less onerous with heavy cash shop spending.
The game literally has it all and hasn't yet met a monetization hill it couldn't climb. (Or utilize in game)
It's no wonder it is wildly profitable as the gamers who play (and pay for) it dont even seem disturbed as they are being manipulated through it all.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I've never had a problem taking my time getting to the top. I've also never had a problem with people who buy gold and purchase their way to the top. In reality, the same can be done just by having generous friends.
The only issue with me when it comes to P2W is when I have to buy something because there's no feasible way to get it in game through regular gameplay. This is life. There will always be people who have it easier or that can buy their way to the top.
In some games, "P2W" is expected. Nobody yells "OMFG P2W!!!" if a MTG Arena player drops $100 on new packs when new cards are released, even though you can eventually get them through regular gameplay. But ArcheAge Unchained made in game costumes sell-able and some people here melted while screaming P2W. It's perception of when it's acceptable and when it isn't.
I have yet to see any item in any game that can be bought in a cash shop that can also be obtained in the game where obtaining that thing in the game is "easy." There is no developer in their right mind who would undermine their own cash shop that way. The hook to get you to buy it is 100% to bypass the "hassle" of what we used to call playing the game in the old days
There are also very few games in 2020 that have P2W items exclusive to the cash shop. Face it, "but you can also get it in the game" is just the latest marketing version for P2W items.
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
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“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
I have yet to see any item in any game that can be bought in a cash shop that can also be obtained in the game where obtaining that thing in the game is "easy." There is no developer in their right mind who would undermine their own cash shop that way. The hook to get you to buy it is 100% to bypass the "hassle" of what we used to call playing the game in the old days
There are also very few games in 2020 that have P2W items exclusive to the cash shop. Face it, "but you can also get it in the game" is just the latest marketing version for P2W items.
You make a good point, and ultimately it comes down to how desirable the item is and how difficult it is to get in game. The items in question for Crowfall are the relic statues. To be honest, I doubt you'll see many people buy them once the game is live. They probably sold most of them the day they were added to the shop. They aren't something that you obtain and then automatically get the benefit from. As I said in an earlier post, they have to be placed in specific buildings in an EK. So now the investment becomes buying the relic, the building to place the relic in, and the parcel on which the building can be placed (assuming the player doesn't already have those).
We have yet to see how difficult it will be to obtain relics in the game, since they haven't been added to the game yet, but I don't think you'll see a lot of people buying relics. Maybe you'll see it at a guild level, but individual players likely won't. They aren't cheap either. There's no way I would spend that kind of money for such a small benefit. But I'm also the type of person who prefers to spend the time playing the game to get something rather than pay for it, just out of principle, regardless of the cost. There's no sense of accomplishing from buying something.
Been my experience most devs who put cash shops in their games don't reveal their "true hand" too much before launch. (Well, except maybe the Ashes team)
As such it can be hard to determine if the monetization model which appears reasonable today will still be true upon launch or even afterwards.
About 7 years ago Mark Jacob's said CU would only ever be a sub only game and he would rather shut it down than vary from it.
Now that's he's accepted significant investor funds (much as the Crowfall team has) my guess is if the sub only model doesn't cut it we'll see the introduction of other forms of monetization.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Been my experience most devs who put cash shops in their games don't reveal their "true hand" too much before launch. (Well, except maybe the Ashes team)
As such it can be hard to determine if the monetization model which appears reasonable today will still be true upon launch or even afterwards.
About 7 years ago Mark Jacob's said CU would only ever be a sub only game and he would rather shut it down than vary from it.
Now that's he's accepted significant investor funds (much as the Crowfall team has) my guess is if the sub only model doesn't cut it we'll see the introduction of other forms of monetization.
Assuming it ever releases of course.
Absolutely. It's all well and good to stand on principles when they are building the game, but if and when reality smacks them in the face, they are going to do whatever they need to do in order to keep the game running. We just have to hope that the games can be successful without them having to compromise their values.
Maybe some day someone will figure out how to properly monetize these games, such that the game companies can remain profitable (enabling them to keep the game running and also create additional games), while also providing fair value to the players without resorting to things which straddle the P2W line.
I have yet to see any item in any game that can be bought in a cash shop that can also be obtained in the game where obtaining that thing in the game is "easy." There is no developer in their right mind who would undermine their own cash shop that way. The hook to get you to buy it is 100% to bypass the "hassle" of what we used to call playing the game in the old days
There are also very few games in 2020 that have P2W items exclusive to the cash shop. Face it, "but you can also get it in the game" is just the latest marketing version for P2W items.
Very well then, here's an example. In Dauntless, if you open the store and go to the "supplies" section, then the "supplies" subsection under it (yes, they gave the same name to both the top level section and one of its subsections), there are six options to buy various combinations of tonics, grenades, and pylons with "platinum", the item mall currency that is mostly purchased with real money.
Various such consumables are useful, and you can and should use them. But each type of consumable has a hard cap on how many you can bring into a battle, and you only have four consumable slots. You can have essentially unlimited inventory outside of a battle, and then it automatically tops up your in-battle inventory from your long-term storage when you start a battle. Thus, there is a hard cap on how many consumables you'll use in a given battle. It's also likely that in most battles, you'll use a lot less than that, as it quickly becomes obvious that you've got a good team and the battle is well in hand. There's no need to burn consumables to heal if your life is already full, for example.
You get the slayer flask (your main healing potion) for free, but all other consumables can be crafted, in addition to buying them from the store. If you pick up the various crafting components as you run by, you'll tend to accumulate them much faster than you actually use them to replenish the consumables that you use.
So does that mean that the consumables in the store are completely useless? Not quite. A brand new player who starts with zero of everything could get some useful consumables from the store before he has the chance to craft them. But you don't have to get very far into the game before buying them from the store is pretty dumb, because they're so easy to get by crafting.
I have yet to see any item in any game that can be bought in a cash shop that can also be obtained in the game where obtaining that thing in the game is "easy." There is no developer in their right mind who would undermine their own cash shop that way. The hook to get you to buy it is 100% to bypass the "hassle" of what we used to call playing the game in the old days
There are also very few games in 2020 that have P2W items exclusive to the cash shop. Face it, "but you can also get it in the game" is just the latest marketing version for P2W items.
Very well then, here's an example. In Dauntless, if you open the store and go to the "supplies" section, then the "supplies" subsection under it (yes, they gave the same name to both the top level section and one of its subsections), there are six options to buy various combinations of tonics, grenades, and pylons with "platinum", the item mall currency that is mostly purchased with real money.
Various such consumables are useful, and you can and should use them. But each type of consumable has a hard cap on how many you can bring into a battle, and you only have four consumable slots. You can have essentially unlimited inventory outside of a battle, and then it automatically tops up your in-battle inventory from your long-term storage when you start a battle. Thus, there is a hard cap on how many consumables you'll use in a given battle. It's also likely that in most battles, you'll use a lot less than that, as it quickly becomes obvious that you've got a good team and the battle is well in hand. There's no need to burn consumables to heal if your life is already full, for example.
You get the slayer flask (your main healing potion) for free, but all other consumables can be crafted, in addition to buying them from the store. If you pick up the various crafting components as you run by, you'll tend to accumulate them much faster than you actually use them to replenish the consumables that you use.
So does that mean that the consumables in the store are completely useless? Not quite. before he has the chance to craft them. But you don't have to get very far into the game before buying them from the store is pretty dumb, because they're so easy to get by crafting.
So what do you think? Is that "pay to win"?
I think that this is so fucking convoluted, as most F2P shit is, that thinking about it would just give me a headache so I'll pass on the P2W question
I will say that this statement...
A brand new player who starts with zero of everything could get some useful consumables from the store
... is a great example of just how casual your acceptance of F2P cash shop garbage is. What ever happened to playing the game to earn your stuff? A lot of players these days will pay all kinds of money just to avoid playing the game. WTF's up with that?
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
I have yet to see any item in any game that can be bought in a cash shop that can also be obtained in the game where obtaining that thing in the game is "easy." There is no developer in their right mind who would undermine their own cash shop that way. The hook to get you to buy it is 100% to bypass the "hassle" of what we used to call playing the game in the old days
There are also very few games in 2020 that have P2W items exclusive to the cash shop. Face it, "but you can also get it in the game" is just the latest marketing version for P2W items.
Very well then, here's an example. In Dauntless, if you open the store and go to the "supplies" section, then the "supplies" subsection under it (yes, they gave the same name to both the top level section and one of its subsections), there are six options to buy various combinations of tonics, grenades, and pylons with "platinum", the item mall currency that is mostly purchased with real money.
Various such consumables are useful, and you can and should use them. But each type of consumable has a hard cap on how many you can bring into a battle, and you only have four consumable slots. You can have essentially unlimited inventory outside of a battle, and then it automatically tops up your in-battle inventory from your long-term storage when you start a battle. Thus, there is a hard cap on how many consumables you'll use in a given battle. It's also likely that in most battles, you'll use a lot less than that, as it quickly becomes obvious that you've got a good team and the battle is well in hand. There's no need to burn consumables to heal if your life is already full, for example.
You get the slayer flask (your main healing potion) for free, but all other consumables can be crafted, in addition to buying them from the store. If you pick up the various crafting components as you run by, you'll tend to accumulate them much faster than you actually use them to replenish the consumables that you use.
So does that mean that the consumables in the store are completely useless? Not quite. before he has the chance to craft them. But you don't have to get very far into the game before buying them from the store is pretty dumb, because they're so easy to get by crafting.
So what do you think? Is that "pay to win"?
I think that this is so fucking convoluted, as most F2P shit is, that thinking about it would just give me a headache so I'll pass on the P2W question
I will say that this statement...
A brand new player who starts with zero of everything could get some useful consumables from the store
... is a great example of just how casual your acceptance of F2P cash shop garbage is. What ever happened to playing the game to earn your stuff? A lot of players these days will pay all kinds of money just to avoid playing the game. WTF's up with that?
It's been that way for a while. The duality of perception between what is and isn't P2W is comical.
If I buy a game and have friends PL me and help me get looted up, nobody really cares. They tout this as proof the community of the game is great.
If I buy a game and pay some dude $19.99 to PL me, then go to a site and spend $9.99 on some gold and buy my loot, I am a PoS that P2W my way to the top.
Some people take every opportunity to bash any game that they deem P2W, but the reality is almost every game can be deemed P2W. One is developer sponsored P2W and one is 3rd party sponsored P2W.
I have yet to see any item in any game that can be bought in a cash shop that can also be obtained in the game where obtaining that thing in the game is "easy." There is no developer in their right mind who would undermine their own cash shop that way. The hook to get you to buy it is 100% to bypass the "hassle" of what we used to call playing the game in the old days
There are also very few games in 2020 that have P2W items exclusive to the cash shop. Face it, "but you can also get it in the game" is just the latest marketing version for P2W items.
Very well then, here's an example. In Dauntless, if you open the store and go to the "supplies" section, then the "supplies" subsection under it (yes, they gave the same name to both the top level section and one of its subsections), there are six options to buy various combinations of tonics, grenades, and pylons with "platinum", the item mall currency that is mostly purchased with real money.
Various such consumables are useful, and you can and should use them. But each type of consumable has a hard cap on how many you can bring into a battle, and you only have four consumable slots. You can have essentially unlimited inventory outside of a battle, and then it automatically tops up your in-battle inventory from your long-term storage when you start a battle. Thus, there is a hard cap on how many consumables you'll use in a given battle. It's also likely that in most battles, you'll use a lot less than that, as it quickly becomes obvious that you've got a good team and the battle is well in hand. There's no need to burn consumables to heal if your life is already full, for example.
You get the slayer flask (your main healing potion) for free, but all other consumables can be crafted, in addition to buying them from the store. If you pick up the various crafting components as you run by, you'll tend to accumulate them much faster than you actually use them to replenish the consumables that you use.
So does that mean that the consumables in the store are completely useless? Not quite. before he has the chance to craft them. But you don't have to get very far into the game before buying them from the store is pretty dumb, because they're so easy to get by crafting.
So what do you think? Is that "pay to win"?
I think that this is so fucking convoluted, as most F2P shit is, that thinking about it would just give me a headache so I'll pass on the P2W question
I will say that this statement...
A brand new player who starts with zero of everything could get some useful consumables from the store
... is a great example of just how casual your acceptance of F2P cash shop garbage is. What ever happened to playing the game to earn your stuff? A lot of players these days will pay all kinds of money just to avoid playing the game. WTF's up with that?
It's been that way for a while. The duality of perception between what is and isn't P2W is comical.
If I buy a game and have friends PL me and help me get looted up, nobody really cares. They tout this as proof the community of the game is great.
If I buy a game and pay some dude $19.99 to PL me, then go to a site and spend $9.99 on some gold and buy my loot, I am a PoS that P2W my way to the top.
Some people take every opportunity to bash any game that they deem P2W, but the reality is almost every game can be deemed P2W. One is developer sponsored P2W and one is 3rd party sponsored P2W.
Well I feel the same way when I play D3 (yes, I still play D3 lol) and a new season starts and all you see is posts in the subreddit or in game chat asking for powerlevels to 70. You can get to 70 in a new season in about 2 hours without a PL but people still want a shortcut that avoids earning your 70.
So I have an equal amount of disdain for game play avoiders whether they pay for it or not.
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
I have yet to see any item in any game that can be bought in a cash shop that can also be obtained in the game where obtaining that thing in the game is "easy." There is no developer in their right mind who would undermine their own cash shop that way. The hook to get you to buy it is 100% to bypass the "hassle" of what we used to call playing the game in the old days
There are also very few games in 2020 that have P2W items exclusive to the cash shop. Face it, "but you can also get it in the game" is just the latest marketing version for P2W items.
Very well then, here's an example. In Dauntless, if you open the store and go to the "supplies" section, then the "supplies" subsection under it (yes, they gave the same name to both the top level section and one of its subsections), there are six options to buy various combinations of tonics, grenades, and pylons with "platinum", the item mall currency that is mostly purchased with real money.
Various such consumables are useful, and you can and should use them. But each type of consumable has a hard cap on how many you can bring into a battle, and you only have four consumable slots. You can have essentially unlimited inventory outside of a battle, and then it automatically tops up your in-battle inventory from your long-term storage when you start a battle. Thus, there is a hard cap on how many consumables you'll use in a given battle. It's also likely that in most battles, you'll use a lot less than that, as it quickly becomes obvious that you've got a good team and the battle is well in hand. There's no need to burn consumables to heal if your life is already full, for example.
You get the slayer flask (your main healing potion) for free, but all other consumables can be crafted, in addition to buying them from the store. If you pick up the various crafting components as you run by, you'll tend to accumulate them much faster than you actually use them to replenish the consumables that you use.
So does that mean that the consumables in the store are completely useless? Not quite. before he has the chance to craft them. But you don't have to get very far into the game before buying them from the store is pretty dumb, because they're so easy to get by crafting.
So what do you think? Is that "pay to win"?
I think that this is so fucking convoluted, as most F2P shit is, that thinking about it would just give me a headache so I'll pass on the P2W question
I will say that this statement...
A brand new player who starts with zero of everything could get some useful consumables from the store
... is a great example of just how casual your acceptance of F2P cash shop garbage is. What ever happened to playing the game to earn your stuff? A lot of players these days will pay all kinds of money just to avoid playing the game. WTF's up with that?
It's been that way for a while. The duality of perception between what is and isn't P2W is comical.
If I buy a game and have friends PL me and help me get looted up, nobody really cares. They tout this as proof the community of the game is great.
If I buy a game and pay some dude $19.99 to PL me, then go to a site and spend $9.99 on some gold and buy my loot, I am a PoS that P2W my way to the top.
Some people take every opportunity to bash any game that they deem P2W, but the reality is almost every game can be deemed P2W. One is developer sponsored P2W and one is 3rd party sponsored P2W.
Well I feel the same way when I play D3 (yes, I still play D3 lol) and a new season starts and all you see is posts in the subreddit or in game chat asking for powerlevels to 70. You can get to 70 in a new season in about 2 hours without a PL but people still want a shortcut that avoids earning your 70.
So I have an equal amount of disdain for game play avoiders whether they pay for it or not.
I like Diablo 3. Not only do I still play Diablo 3, I still play Diablo 2 (Path of Diablo, which is awesome). I get not wanting to level yet another character for another season. What I don't get is people who play hardcore that ask for PLs. Seems to me, part of playing hardcore is not getting killed when leveling.
I have yet to see any item in any game that can be bought in a cash shop that can also be obtained in the game where obtaining that thing in the game is "easy." There is no developer in their right mind who would undermine their own cash shop that way. The hook to get you to buy it is 100% to bypass the "hassle" of what we used to call playing the game in the old days
There are also very few games in 2020 that have P2W items exclusive to the cash shop. Face it, "but you can also get it in the game" is just the latest marketing version for P2W items.
Very well then, here's an example. In Dauntless, if you open the store and go to the "supplies" section, then the "supplies" subsection under it (yes, they gave the same name to both the top level section and one of its subsections), there are six options to buy various combinations of tonics, grenades, and pylons with "platinum", the item mall currency that is mostly purchased with real money.
Various such consumables are useful, and you can and should use them. But each type of consumable has a hard cap on how many you can bring into a battle, and you only have four consumable slots. You can have essentially unlimited inventory outside of a battle, and then it automatically tops up your in-battle inventory from your long-term storage when you start a battle. Thus, there is a hard cap on how many consumables you'll use in a given battle. It's also likely that in most battles, you'll use a lot less than that, as it quickly becomes obvious that you've got a good team and the battle is well in hand. There's no need to burn consumables to heal if your life is already full, for example.
You get the slayer flask (your main healing potion) for free, but all other consumables can be crafted, in addition to buying them from the store. If you pick up the various crafting components as you run by, you'll tend to accumulate them much faster than you actually use them to replenish the consumables that you use.
So does that mean that the consumables in the store are completely useless? Not quite. before he has the chance to craft them. But you don't have to get very far into the game before buying them from the store is pretty dumb, because they're so easy to get by crafting.
So what do you think? Is that "pay to win"?
I think that this is so fucking convoluted, as most F2P shit is, that thinking about it would just give me a headache so I'll pass on the P2W question
I will say that this statement...
A brand new player who starts with zero of everything could get some useful consumables from the store
... is a great example of just how casual your acceptance of F2P cash shop garbage is. What ever happened to playing the game to earn your stuff? A lot of players these days will pay all kinds of money just to avoid playing the game. WTF's up with that?
It's been that way for a while. The duality of perception between what is and isn't P2W is comical.
If I buy a game and have friends PL me and help me get looted up, nobody really cares. They tout this as proof the community of the game is great.
If I buy a game and pay some dude $19.99 to PL me, then go to a site and spend $9.99 on some gold and buy my loot, I am a PoS that P2W my way to the top.
Some people take every opportunity to bash any game that they deem P2W, but the reality is almost every game can be deemed P2W. One is developer sponsored P2W and one is 3rd party sponsored P2W.
Well I feel the same way when I play D3 (yes, I still play D3 lol) and a new season starts and all you see is posts in the subreddit or in game chat asking for powerlevels to 70. You can get to 70 in a new season in about 2 hours without a PL but people still want a shortcut that avoids earning your 70.
So I have an equal amount of disdain for game play avoiders whether they pay for it or not.
I like Diablo 3. Not only do I still play Diablo 3, I still play Diablo 2 (Path of Diablo, which is awesome). I get not wanting to level yet another character for another season. What I don't get is people who play hardcore that ask for PLs. Seems to me, part of playing hardcore is not getting killed when leveling.
I went whole hog this past season. I finished the season journey to the very end in all 3 regions and at least unlocked primals (GR70) in both regular and HC also in all 3. I also played all classes this season... yes I have no life
The part of it that bores me now is the post GR90 (or GR100 depending on build) fiddly grind for better ancients, augments and more Paragon. I just roll an alt when I get there these days. I enjoy the fresh 70 to Torment 16 capable part of the game the most.
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
Comments
You can try to explain it away all you want but it still comes back to something very simple and that is how many will see it without any knowledge of the game or trying it.
I doubt statues and relics will even exist if they can't figure out how to keep EKs running 24/7. Just another concept they have yet to figure out after years.
https://crowfall.com/en-US/faq/
Artifacts are typically guild rewards. Relics are typically player rewards.
Artifacts are “World” rewards. These can only be gained by winning Campaigns. Artifacts are meaningful trophies (like the World Cup) that can be displayed in your Eternal Kingdom, that confer their blessings on all the players who own land in that Kingdom.
An example of an Artifact might be “the Anvil of Kane”, which (when placed, for example, inside a Reliquary in a Mountain Citadel) offers the “Strength of the Crescent Moon” blessing to all the players on this World.
Relics are “Player and City” rewards. Relics offer similar blessings, but can only be utilized by a smaller number of players – they can be placed inside of the buildings in the cities or villages of your Eternal Kingdom. Relics can be collected in Campaigns or crafted using rare reagents.
An example of a Relic might be “the Blade of Taerious”, which (once placed in a Chaos Temple) offers the “Gaes of Speed” blessing to the players who own land in and around a (player-built) village in your Kingdom.
For the record, I'm not one of those people. I don't like having anything in the shop that gives any kind of benefit, even if you can also obtain it in game. I believe that players should have to play the game to earn the stuff they want.
That said, I'm also a realist. I understand the way the industry has gone and the difficulties game companies have in monetizing their games. In the grand scheme of things, these relics are minor buffs that won't unbalance the game. If you want to call them pay-to-win simply because you are paying for something that gives you a buff, that's fine. People can draw the line wherever they want. Black Desert has been accused of much worse and seems to be doing fine.
I would rather they have minor stuff like this that helps them to keep the game running than to have the game fold because they aren't making enough money. Yes, it could be a slippery slope and, if we see them go further down that path, then I may have to reassess my position. For now, I really don't care. 100% of the power is in the game and 99% is only in the game. If people want to pay money to obtain that 1% instead of playing the game to get it, I'm not going to sweat it.
But I do agree on the start early, I stopped playing ESO when they nerfed all 'hard' content no one complained about in beta. As soon as the masses get in, every game turns into a faceroll
That's my main concern with Crowfall. That and the engine
I especially liked knowing some longer (6 months) campaigns are being planned.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Star Citizen seems to be following EVE where there is a player base with a lot of disposable income and time. Which might be fine for those games but doesn't apply to all. Crowfall is not like either.
I'm okay with some necessary evil but will have to see where they take it.
It is possible to make a game without going with anything that reasonable resembles P2W but that requires not only a good game people want to play but also a payment system that reflects the game design.
I'd rather a company at least try to go without questionable cash shop choices and fall back to it if not enough people are paying for the game or a sub, but that requires companies trusting their product enough to do so.
Starting with a cash shop and questionable items before there is even a game won't have a better back up option, it's just further down the slippery slope.
1) WoW allowed players to buy any green quality weapon in the game for $5, or
2) WoW allowed players to buy any purple quality weapon in the game for $5.
You could make a strong case that the latter would be pay to win, even if it was also possible to get the top raid epics by actually raiding. But the former? That's not pay to win. That's pretty useless.
There's also a huge difference between:
1) There is a critical item that you can either buy from the item mall or get by grinding for 100 hours, or
2) An item can be purcahsed in the item mall, but most players have more of it than they have any use for just in the normal course of playing the game.
The former is very pay to win. The latter would at most be a bit of a head start for brand new players.
Much like Muthax said in his post above, get in before its F2P, that is when the game gets redesigned for the worse.
Borrowing heavily from Grinding Gears Games model, they make players who wear only in game gear look like murder hobos therefore making the $30 cash store costumes (which actually aren't purely cosmetic as they have slight bonuses.
They also bury them in loot which can't even efficiently be picked up without having pets which are conveniently available for sale if one prefers to be gimped until a few can be earned in game.
Oh yes, apparently gathering pets have tiers which from what I've read the highest level one require cash shop purchases.
They didn't stop there, at launch there were starter packs, three tiers as I recall, and the original B2P price was around $29.99, though they often drop that to much lower to lure more people in.
Then they offer a monthly sub with various benefits and finally top it all off with what most every Asian game has, a top end, RNG heavy gearing system which of course can be made somewhat less onerous with heavy cash shop spending.
The game literally has it all and hasn't yet met a monetization hill it couldn't climb. (Or utilize in game)
It's no wonder it is wildly profitable as the gamers who play (and pay for) it dont even seem disturbed as they are being manipulated through it all.
Brilliant I tell you, just brilliant.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
There are also very few games in 2020 that have P2W items exclusive to the cash shop. Face it, "but you can also get it in the game" is just the latest marketing version for P2W items.
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
We have yet to see how difficult it will be to obtain relics in the game, since they haven't been added to the game yet, but I don't think you'll see a lot of people buying relics. Maybe you'll see it at a guild level, but individual players likely won't. They aren't cheap either. There's no way I would spend that kind of money for such a small benefit. But I'm also the type of person who prefers to spend the time playing the game to get something rather than pay for it, just out of principle, regardless of the cost. There's no sense of accomplishing from buying something.
As such it can be hard to determine if the monetization model which appears reasonable today will still be true upon launch or even afterwards.
About 7 years ago Mark Jacob's said CU would only ever be a sub only game and he would rather shut it down than vary from it.
Now that's he's accepted significant investor funds (much as the Crowfall team has) my guess is if the sub only model doesn't cut it we'll see the introduction of other forms of monetization.
Assuming it ever releases of course.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Maybe some day someone will figure out how to properly monetize these games, such that the game companies can remain profitable (enabling them to keep the game running and also create additional games), while also providing fair value to the players without resorting to things which straddle the P2W line.
Various such consumables are useful, and you can and should use them. But each type of consumable has a hard cap on how many you can bring into a battle, and you only have four consumable slots. You can have essentially unlimited inventory outside of a battle, and then it automatically tops up your in-battle inventory from your long-term storage when you start a battle. Thus, there is a hard cap on how many consumables you'll use in a given battle. It's also likely that in most battles, you'll use a lot less than that, as it quickly becomes obvious that you've got a good team and the battle is well in hand. There's no need to burn consumables to heal if your life is already full, for example.
You get the slayer flask (your main healing potion) for free, but all other consumables can be crafted, in addition to buying them from the store. If you pick up the various crafting components as you run by, you'll tend to accumulate them much faster than you actually use them to replenish the consumables that you use.
So does that mean that the consumables in the store are completely useless? Not quite. A brand new player who starts with zero of everything could get some useful consumables from the store before he has the chance to craft them. But you don't have to get very far into the game before buying them from the store is pretty dumb, because they're so easy to get by crafting.
So what do you think? Is that "pay to win"?
I will say that this statement...
... is a great example of just how casual your acceptance of F2P cash shop garbage is. What ever happened to playing the game to earn your stuff? A lot of players these days will pay all kinds of money just to avoid playing the game. WTF's up with that?
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
So I have an equal amount of disdain for game play avoiders whether they pay for it or not.
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
I like Diablo 3. Not only do I still play Diablo 3, I still play Diablo 2 (Path of Diablo, which is awesome). I get not wanting to level yet another character for another season. What I don't get is people who play hardcore that ask for PLs. Seems to me, part of playing hardcore is not getting killed when leveling.
The part of it that bores me now is the post GR90 (or GR100 depending on build) fiddly grind for better ancients, augments and more Paragon. I just roll an alt when I get there these days. I enjoy the fresh 70 to Torment 16 capable part of the game the most.
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED