Which MMORPG combined PVE and PVP the best?

flguy147

I always read from forum posters how hard it is to make pve and pvp work together.  So was curious on what mmorpg you guys think combined both pve and pvp together the best to make it work and make both pvp and pve players happy?

Scorchien

  Hands down then and now ..... DAOC

Iselin

DAoC.

Theocritus

Any game that doesn't force us to PVP, that is the one that does it best. WoW, SWG, and a few others implemented this and it worked well for those of us that are not huge PVP fans.

skeaser

Warhammer Online

Theocritus

Scorchien said:

  Hands down then and now ..... DAOC

I didn't play on the official servers, but on the private servers getting one shot by stealthers was a major problem...Is that still an issue?

ultimateduck

DAoC, without question.

Theocritus said:

Scorchien said:

  Hands down then and now ..... DAOC

I didn't play on the official servers, but on the private servers getting one shot by stealthers was a major problem...Is that still an issue?

Kinda. This was a topic of contention for a while. The point of a stealther was for a solo character to quickly kill an opponent. The problem came when every non-stealth character wanted to be able to solo effectively making it near impossible for a solo stealther to quickly kill their opponent. This pretty much killed solo stealthers, forcing them to group up. Suddenly people were getting insta killed by small groups of stealthers, and the crying continued.

Scorchien

skeaser said:

Warhammer Online

I love Warhammer still play on RoR , played on live from Alpha thru close , got to RR 93 , the PVE was epically bad .. all of it

cameltosis

This is a very good question OP!

"Combined the best" could mean so many things!

Does it simply mean that both parts of the community were happy?

Does it mean that both PvE and PvP systems were "good"?

Does it mean that both styles of gameplay were integrated well together?

Does it mean taking into account the large MMO community, or just the community in the game itself?

To give you an example, SWG (pre-cu), both parts of the community were pretty happy, and neither section affected the other. However, the PvP systems were virtually non-existent: you could flag yourself for PvP, or you could build a PvP based in your town. But that was basically it. There were no ranks, no rewards, no objectives to the PvP, and you had to do a lot of PvE grinding in order to be competitive in PvP.

So, both communities were happy, both were integrated in the world nicely, but the PvP systems themselves were virtually nothing.

Similarly, lets look at Warhammer. It had some really great PvP, with a lot of depth to the mechanics that allowed for some great team tactics. It had a ton of PvE content, with public quests, normal questing and a load of dungeons, including open world dungeons. But, the PvE itself was pretty shit, and the two systems were not integrated well at all. If you spent any amount of time PvEing, you were just shooting yourself in the foot when it came to PvP as you would fall too far behind in rank and gear. So, just a few months after launch, the PvE in the game was pretty much dead (on my server at least - EU Karak Azgul).

So, both PvP and PvE systems were pretty good, but the PvE community wasnt very happy within the game, nor the wider PvE community who wanted to play Warhammer but wouldn't due to the PvP.

I don't really have a good answer for you. I think my main problem with being able to answer is that almost all (if not all) MMORPGs are designed around vertical progression - as you progress, you get more powerful - however vertical progression always makes the PvP pretty bad and ensures that the PvP community remains small. Vertical progression will always be a barrier towards really good integration of PvE and PvP, so I don't feel like any game has gotten it right so far. Don't get me wrong, PvP can still be great fun, but you normally have to rely on sub-par balancing mechanisms to remove the power gaps, or simply wait/grind until you reach the top of the power curve, at which point it becomes balanced and enjoyable.

Cryomatrix

EVE

ultimateduck

DMKano said:

Scorchien said:

  Hands down then and now ..... DAOC

Imo the PvE was not anywhere as good as RvR

I loved everything about DAoC, but RvR is what made it a great game.

DMKano said:

skeaser said:

Warhammer Online

Imo one of the worst PvE mmorpgs I've played.

Oddly enough, I didn't mind the PvE of War Hammer Online. I hated the PvP... although the battleground instances were fun for being instances.

While I loved the gameplay of SWG, I can't remember the PvP repercussions. I'm drawing a complete blank on any advancements gained from PvP or any losses due to PvP. From what I remember, it was just killing other people with no real point, but there's a 100% chance I'm wrong.

cameltosis

ultimateduck said:

DMKano said:

Scorchien said:

  Hands down then and now ..... DAOC

Imo the PvE was not anywhere as good as RvR

I loved everything about DAoC, but RvR is what made it a great game.

DMKano said:

skeaser said:

Warhammer Online

Imo one of the worst PvE mmorpgs I've played.

Oddly enough, I didn't mind the PvE of War Hammer Online. I hated the PvP... although the battleground instances were fun for being instances.

While I loved the gameplay of SWG, I can't remember the PvP repercussions. I'm drawing a complete blank on any advancements gained from PvP or any losses due to PvP. From what I remember, it was just killing other people with no real point, but there's a 100% chance I'm wrong.

U have it right about SWG as far as I can remember.

No rank, no rewards or anythign like that from PvP. Well, there might have been points towards imp/rebel faction, but as I'd capped rebel faction through PvE I can't remember.

Downsides was when u died, like PvE you lost your buffs and your equipment degraded. This is what put me off the PvP when I was playing: if you died, it could mean a 10-20 minute delay whilst you had to go off and get rebuffed somewhere, as well as heal ur wounds and battle fatigue.

If you had a friendly doctor in the guild who liked PvP then u could get round the downsides, but I didn't so was always a ballache dying in PvP.

Wizardry

Well obviously for me pve is FFXI but pvp is not something that is ever done best in any mmorpg sooo.
Best pvp i ever played was ut99,it was the hayday of pvp gaming,very skilled,no mmorpg could ever come close to matching it.Well i guess i shouldn't say never as it is possible but seeing the direction of game design and the many inept developers out there,not likely to ever see quality pvp in hardly any game let alone a rpg.

The reason we are seeing such bad game design in pvp is because for most devs ,they aim for pvp because they are a low budget operation,pvp is simple and cheaper for them to manage.For the rest of the few devs that could afford a really good pvp system,they aim instead to BAIT players towards "rewards" "ranks" which i guess rank is a sort of reward in itself.My point is that we are not likely to see really good pvp unless rewards and ranks are dropped because then the developer has nothing cheap to fall back on,it becomes all about the game play.

So if there is no rewards/loot/items/gold whatever and no ladders or ranks,then the only thing keeping players there is the fun of the combat,let's see if ANY of the current pvp games could survive on game play alone,i doubt it.

ultimateduck

Wizardry said:

The reason we are seeing such bad game design in pvp is because for most devs ,they aim for pvp because they are a low budget operation,pvp is simple and cheaper for them to manage.For the rest of the few devs that could afford a really good pvp system,they aim instead to BAIT players towards "rewards" "ranks" which i guess rank is a sort of reward in itself.My point is that we are not likely to see really good pvp unless rewards and ranks are dropped because then the developer has nothing cheap to fall back on,it becomes all about the game play.

So if there is no rewards/loot/items/gold whatever and no ladders or ranks,then the only thing keeping players there is the fun of the combat,let's see if ANY of the current pvp games could survive on game play alone,i doubt it.

I believe you've said this a few times now. I respectfully disagree.

DAoC had a huge PvE world and a very in depth loot and crafting system. They also had a very well thought out PvP (RvR) system that had consequences and lateral character progression. I have yet seen a game that was able to duplicate this. War Hammer Online tried, but failed in so many ways it was forced to shut down. SWG also tried and had a ton of great aspects, but inevitably caved to the PvE'ers and was forced to shut down. The only game that has come close since has been ArcheAge, which was developered to death. It's still going but is limping along on it's 3rd(?) version.

PvP can be done right. Developers just don't seem to want to use the only real, proven way to do it. And you are right. It has to be separate from the PvE world. The two can coexist together... if they are separated...lol

Scot

Scorchien said:

  Hands down then and now ..... DAOC

As I entered the thread I was forming the sentence "Hands down DAOC" in my head

Faction based Realm Versus Realm is the best way to balance PvP with PvE. But it is expensive you need three factions to balance one getting too strong. That's three separate sets of zones for an avatars career to top level and a set of zones for RvR. But many good ideas in MMOs have gone by the wayside which were not prohibitively expensive, I think it was simply seen as not needed for the streamlined version of MMOs that fans got after WoW.

Luiden

DAOC, hands down, no contest.  It was so far ahead of its time and to be honest nothing has come close to date.

Anybody who lists a different game has no idea what they are talking about or is to young and was not able to play the game back in its glory days.

Sorry for those that think differently but it’s not close at all.

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The user and all related content has been deleted.

sgel

DaoC or EvE Online.

Both succeeded in a different ways.

Ungood

Gonna have to agree with @blueturtle13 on this one.

cheyane

DAoC was pretty bad as far as PvE went. Bland, uninteresting and without a soul. Like Warhammer too. So only the PvP part worked well.

ultimateduck

coretex666 said:

Luiden said:

DAOC, hands down, no contest.  It was so far ahead of its time and to be honest nothing has come close to date.

Anybody who lists a different game has no idea what they are talking about or is to young and was not able to play the game back in its glory days.

Sorry for those that think differently but it’s not close at all.

Funniest post I have read in a while here. Well done. 

It really is no contest. You don't like the PvE in Albion, play Midgard or Hibernia and the PvE completely changes because it's a completely different lore with completely different characters in a completely different land. There may have been better pure PvE games that did PvE better, but they didn't have RvR.

DAoC PvP is, without question, the best any game has ever had. No one was forced to RvR ever, but RvR did effect the PvE world with relics, access to Darkness Falls and quick traveling for quests in the frontiers. The only people who can disagree about this point are the people who never really played it.

Remember, the question wasn't which game had the best PvE or the best PvP. It was "Which MMORPG combined PVE and PVP the best?". The only answer is DAoC... the end.

Ungood

The PvP & PvE in DAOC was mediocre at best on both accounts, anyone thinking it was a holy grail of a great fusion of PvP & PVE, simply put never played a decent PvP or PvE game, but then again, that could be the exact problem, because if DAOC was in fact the best that ever was, that should be the sign that we really ought to stop trying to make these hybrid-games, as the best that ever was, really wasn't that good.

ceratop001

The Best? I have no answer, because nothing has been perfected.

Daranar

DMKano said:

SWG

ArcheAge Alpha 1.0 (not current crap versions)

Those get my votes

I'd probably say this too.  SWG PvP was cool with bounty hunters and jedi.   Other than that it was just for RP like others said, no real rewards/effect.  

ArcheAge was probably my favorite combination but due to the nature of the game (nature of almost all PvP games) the balance dies FAST as guilds consolidate power and make it impossible to travel without lots of friends.  Then it's hard to PvE and it's hard to PvP without a full gang.  But in the very beginning, it was pretty cool.

darkhalf357x

I personally don't believe it can even work. The goals of a PvP game are in direct competition of the goals of a PvE game.  A PvE game is based on continual individual and group progression.  The more varied the better the PvE experience because you have more options to customize your character.   PvP is the opposite.  It requires balance so everyone is on a fair playing field.  Any type of growth in a PvP has to be structured, because someone could play everyday and progress way further than someone who just likes to play on weekends and they would no longer be able to compete against one another fairly.

I don't see a scenario where you can merge both, without having them separate but equal, and even in that state its not really a "merge" but a close co-existence which is different.

centkin

Warhammer was the best at this hands down, bringing PVE players into RVR. 

Aion was second. 

Far below them, the honorable mentions would go to DaoC, Ultima Online, and Asheron's Call's Darktide server.