How do you feel about MMO credentials for the people who write for this site?

seeyouspacec0wboy

As the years go by it's becoming clear that people writing articles for this site started playing MMORPG's post vanilla WoW. Until the next major shift in the genre comes about, vanilla WoW seems to be the best barometer for the old school vs new school, with vanilla being a mix of both.

My first MMORPG was FFXI, then I moved to WoW and I quit that when the first expansion came out, then I moved to Vanguard. Haven't played an MMO in a serious way since then. FFXIV is the closest but I didn't last too long.

I joined this site a round early 2006. At the time you could already tell that the forums were becoming a haven for those just looking for a new home in the genre but unable to find one. In 2020 the forums are almost entirely that. We are mostly all posting from positions of waiting for that next MMO that scratches the itch for us the way they did pre 2004. 

In my early days here I appreciated that previews, reviews, op eds etc were clearly done by people who had had similar gaming experiences to the rest of us. Now, it's clear that some people writing here are quite new to the genre. That's great and probably has it's benefits. But it also makes me wonder...with no new MMORPG's coming out that suit my fancy (I'm watching Pantheon but who knows), with the forums being mostly people like myself who just want to complain and talk about the days of yore, with articles about new MMORPGs being written by people who use the past 5 years of the genre as comparisons, and with many of the articles coming out now focusing on other genres, I feel like I only check the site daily because it has become a muscle memory over the last 14-15 years. 

That was a little less focused of a post than I wanted to write...but you get the point.

newbismx

Its all changed- But the change happened on the web as a whole and it continues to change as it becomes more like interactive television.

The computer, the web and computer games (especially CRPG's and MMORPG's) were the domain of nerds  back in the day- Most of us came from a tabletop environment and were part of geek culture before it became mainstream and 'cool'.

As the masses started invading , we pretty much were forgotten and everything shifted towards the new and larger mass market that was coming into our domain and replacing us...Everything was effectively 'dumbed down' to the lowest common denominator .

I see people acting as if this site just changed recently when it changed hands- This site had essentially died when they started censoring hardcore back around 2012/2013 or something- MMORPGs were pretty much dead then and the users coming had had thin skins and demanded a safe space- This has trickled across the entire internet now.

You're not mistaken in your assessment but what is there really to talk about ?  Us old timers who still know what usenet is have been replaced as gaming has replaced Hollywood as the main money maker. MMORPG's are pretty much dead in the form we played them (and the way we believed they would evolve) and they arent coming back- All we would do is write bitching articles so better to find people who still find enjoyment in the cash shop sewer swamp of what passes for the genre these days.

Sorry for the unfocused rambling as well- Just waking up from a nap - What us old folks do on valentines day lol- 

seeyouspacec0wboy

Thanks, that's a good assessment! I suppose to stick. to the main question I wanted to pose: Do those of you who come from backgrounds like myself care less about what is written here when it comes from people who have only entered the genre recently? 

I'll be frank: I'm not necessarily looking for a good, well put together game. I'm sure many MMO's that have come out in the last 15 years could be called that, and I've dabbled in some of them. But I'm looking for a very specific experience. It's possibly not one that I'll ever find again, and that's ok, but I at least liked that I could come here and read reviews of games from people who were also looking for that experience.

F2Plague

seeyouspacec0wboy said:

As the years go by it's becoming clear that people writing articles for this site started playing MMORPG's post vanilla WoW. Until the next major shift in the genre comes about, vanilla WoW seems to be the best barometer for the old school vs new school, with vanilla being a mix of both.

My first MMORPG was FFXI, then I moved to WoW and I quit that when the first expansion came out, then I moved to Vanguard. Haven't played an MMO in a serious way since then. FFXIV is the closest but I didn't last too long.

I joined this site a round early 2006. At the time you could already tell that the forums were becoming a haven for those just looking for a new home in the genre but unable to find one. In 2020 the forums are almost entirely that. We are mostly all posting from positions of waiting for that next MMO that scratches the itch for us the way they did pre 2004. 

In my early days here I appreciated that previews, reviews, op eds etc were clearly done by people who had had similar gaming experiences to the rest of us. Now, it's clear that some people writing here are quite new to the genre. That's great and probably has it's benefits. But it also makes me wonder...with no new MMORPG's coming out that suit my fancy (I'm watching Pantheon but who knows), with the forums being mostly people like myself who just want to complain and talk about the days of yore, with articles about new MMORPGs being written by people who use the past 5 years of the genre as comparisons, and with many of the articles coming out now focusing on other genres, I feel like I only check the site daily because it has become a muscle memory over the last 14-15 years. 

That was a little less focused of a post than I wanted to write...but you get the point.

I am the same way. And FFXI was also my first MMO! I was actually playing on FFXI Eden not too long ago, it was pretty nostalgic. I had to stop playing because it was once again consuming my life. When you are spending 6 hours a day just NM hunting its time to re-evaluate your priorities.
It was a nice blast from the past but far too time consuming.

I have not been coming to this site for 15 years. But I feel the same way, I come here daily and I don't even know why. The articles are so out of touch with how the majority of MMO players feel about the current status of the genre. It is what it is though, they literally have nothing to write about these days. I think maybe, I just hope to see some news of something that will interest me. Has not happened in a long time though. Too many pledge to win kickstarter games coming down the pipes. Its literally all they write about these days.

LackingMMO

Honestly opinion articles or reviews, anything of that nature I take with a grain of salt. Most the time it seems there are 2 opposite sides that form opinions/review. People who do not care for that genre/game/dev/art style and will give a low score for that or fanboys who will give anything a 10/10 with no critique or what they are looking at. Coming from the eq/uo era I look at the pros and cons the writer put for the game and go off that. Sometimes I see cons that I would consider pros or pros I consider cons. 

I guess for me, preference in a game comes before era of gaming.

Ungood

Well you sorta tagged me.

Been playing MMO's, since EQ, and Text Based MUD's before that.

The biggest thing that happens with MMO's, is that they all too often change in bad ways. They build this base game, and players love it, then  each time they expand upon the game, they run the risk of making anything from lead balloon to a shooting star.

And this is what happens. A lot of us had a game we loved, played it for years, paid into it, and loved the game, and then the game changed for the worse for it, and it was no longer enjoyable for us to play.

So we look for a new game, and the process goes over again. 

I think older players are not angry, bitter or looking to rip down a game (ok, some are, I'll give you that), but it more simply we have seen the same mistakes happen in the past that we can see them coming again, we have seen the same pitfalls enough times, that in some cases we believe we can see them before they happen.

While it gives us that perspective, it is also something new gamers do not address when they talk about games.

If you talked with a new gamer, they are all about what is.
If you talk to an old school gamer they will talk more about What could be.

And this gives a distinct advantage, as even after the game launches, an old school gamer is still thinking about where the game will go from here, what will happen with the expansion, or what have you, because these are things they worry about, it is not enough for us to simply enjoy the game today, if it feels like the game could to turn to shit in 2 years like we have seen happen to other games we loved and enjoyed, we would rather not waste that 2 years to get to that point where we rage quit.

So it's not that anyone is not worth listening to, as we are all gamers, and what holds us together is the love of games, regardless of all other factors.

Just my feels on it.

DafAtRandom

Sign of times.

Generations age, and younger folks take the place we used to hold 15 years ago.

Personally, if there has to be reviews to be made, and read, I think you need to have writers that can cover both perspectives.  Yes, us old timers see things differently ; but new material coming out can't always be covered only through our perspective.  A perspective is a matter of opinion, and ours is not necessarily right.

How often have you told your parents (or at least thought about telling them) that they need to get with the times ? Well, getting writers that look at the past 5 years is getting with the times.

You need to have writers that can tailor to the game too.  I mean, if you want someone to write with an older perspective in mind, that's fine...but does writing an article about how "Black Desert Online compares to Everquest pre-Kunark" make sense ?

centkin

DafAtRandom said:

Sign of times.

Generations age, and younger folks take the place we used to hold 15 years ago.

Personally, if there has to be reviews to be made, and read, I think you need to have writers that can cover both perspectives.  Yes, us old timers see things differently ; but new material coming out can't always be covered only through our perspective.  A perspective is a matter of opinion, and ours is not necessarily right.

How often have you told your parents (or at least thought about telling them) that they need to get with the times ? Well, getting writers that look at the past 5 years is getting with the times.

You need to have writers that can tailor to the game too.  I mean, if you want someone to write with an older perspective in mind, that's fine...but does writing an article about how "Black Desert Online compares to Everquest pre-Kunark" make sense ?

Actually it is an interesting thought experiment to compare Black Desert Online with Pre-Kunark Everquest.

Black Desert Online doesn't let you trade anything with other players nor gift anything -- it is a 100% managed economy through the store and things can be completely worthless just because of the values the store allows, or completely untradable.  Everquest at the time had tons of stores you could sell to and people could even BUY from the stores.  You could even give goods to monsters like torches for effect, or a weapon to a skeleton to make a powerhouse.

BDO is solo-centric group possible while EQ1 at the time it really depended upon which class you were.  At launch it was a lot less mandatory to group than it was say at the planes of power stage of the game. There weren't even raids yet, even though there were places and monsters where you wanted more than one group -- but you had no way to link those groups -- highest DPS group won. 

They both had defined loot tables for monsters as opposed to something more flexible. 

They both had very high graphics for the time.

Neither one really had fast travel.  You could easily be a half an hour away from someone else in both games, unlike what EQ1 became.  If anything there were fewer fast travel options in black desert than the druids and wizards of everquest.

Quests were a very good method of gaining exp in both games.

Both games had serious death penalties compared to most games.  EQ1 of course had the now infamous corpse runs, but BDO you take a substantial exp and money hit on death.

EQ1 required you to kill hard monsters usually one at a time if you were solo while BDO is a slaughterfest where tons of monsters fall to your sword.  BDO really compares better to Asheron's Call of the time here with EQ1 being its opposite.

Kyleran

The "MMORPG" credentials of the folks running this site?

A bit like walking into your local Chinese restaurant only to find out no one working there is actually Chinese.

Linif

Fellow "FF11 as first MMORPG" fella here. I remember sitting, waiting for my shitty internet to finish downloading the patches... 14 hours I believe? What a time.

I've sort of shifted from what I used to know and love. The time when things were hard so achieving something actually meant something. But as I've grown older (I'm not an old-timer yet!) my responsibilities have grown accordingly and I just don't have the time to really dedicate to those types of games anymore.

So what I look for in MMORPGs are fun gameplay and friends. If the game doesn't make me fall asleep and I've found a decent core of people to play with then I'm A-Okay.

As my priorities have shifted I suppose the articles here still speak to my like. If the article can tell me it's fun, I'll try it. If they tell me it's fun but the community is toxic, I'll think twice. You see where I'm going with this.

Caffynated

Kyleran said:

The "MMORPG" credentials of the folks running this site?

A bit like walking into your local Chinese restaurant only to find out no one working there is actually Chinese.

Chinese people rarely make good "Chinese food" in my experience. Authentic Chinese feed is pretty bleh, and I much prefer the Americanized version. Kind of like the difference between Mexican food and Tex-Mex. 99% of Americans who say they love "Mexican food" actually prefer Tex-Mex and would find authentic Mexican food gross or at least unappealing.

That's probably why the attempts by "industry veterans" to recreate old MMOs have met with such disaster. We've been exposed to beef fajita nachos covered in molten cheese with savory spices and can't go back to green goop on a corn tortilla.

The MMO industry needs fresh ideas more than the current trend of "old is new again."

AlBQuirky

seeyouspacec0wboy said:

Thanks, that's a good assessment! I suppose to stick. to the main question I wanted to pose: Do those of you who come from backgrounds like myself care less about what is written here when it comes from people who have only entered the genre recently? 

I'll be frank: I'm not necessarily looking for a good, well put together game. I'm sure many MMO's that have come out in the last 15 years could be called that, and I've dabbled in some of them. But I'm looking for a very specific experience. It's possibly not one that I'll ever find again, and that's ok, but I at least liked that I could come here and read reviews of games from people who were also looking for that experience.

I (EQ 1 was my first MMORPG) stopped reading "the articles" a long time ago. Now, I visit for the forums (The Pub & General Gaming specifically), alone.

The genre and hobby have passed my by. As games strive to reach the largest audience possible (with exclusives?), they lost the heart and soul of what made them so enjoyable for me.

MMORPG.com has taken the "most viewed" route by keeping up with the genre and industry changes in order to try to stay current. I don't blame them as they are just following the trends

cheyane

Online games have moved on. Games are more action oriented and require players to play a lot faster than when I first started in 1999. I have tried to adapt and have gotten limited success and I try to play but even what I was capable of doing in Everquest has changed greatly. I have changed.

I don't expect to ever really enjoy anything as much as I liked Everquest , that is impossible simply because of the new experience everything was to me. I think since then I enjoyed Anarchy Online, City of Heroes, Vanguard and a few others including early WoW. The most recent game I significantly enjoyed was FFXIV.

As the landscape of the MMORPG genre changes so too the writers. It is an inevitable change. I guess we will have to adapt to the change because if we don't we won't have many games to play. I don't want that for myself. I want to play even when these old hands fight my desire and often fail.

I still go back to the old games like on P99 and when Anarchy Online released their new server last year and try to recapture some of the old magic. WoW Classic was the other foray.

cheyane

Kyleran said:

The "MMORPG" credentials of the folks running this site?

A bit like walking into your local Chinese restaurant only to find out no one working there is actually Chinese.

Good thing this does not happen in Malaysia. We have pretty authentic Chinese, Indian, Malay cuisine and we are really lucky in this respect. If you have eaten authentic Chinese food you will love it. Being Indian in Malaysia I have had the wonderful pleasure of growing up eating Cantonese, Hokkien, Hakka, Teochew , Hainanese food in Malaysia because many of the Chinese originated from these areas of China. A lot of the food were also solely developed in Malaysia the so called local Chinese food found only in Malaysia and Singapore. 

If you have eaten 'authentic' Chinese food you will never settle for less. Anyone who says otherwise has no inkling of what authentic Chinese food is like.

Wizardry

You can't think about credentials when comes to writers because they do not write based on their true experiences on gaming over time.They write because they are often asked to write on a specific game to get PAID.

A real writer would simply write on a game because he /she enjoys writing about games.A REAL person would also write as if they were talking to a friend and not care one bit about the "professionalism CODE" to follow.Also a true person would not care one bit about "the business side" of getting paid nor often have to ask permission to post their writing on a game.The reason for the latter is because often these writers are invited by the studio to come and see the game beforehand and is under NDA.
So you often get manipulated or writings that are first inspected by the developer.The BUSINESS side of things is ALWAYS going to be a deterrent when comes to good articles and reading.
Point being that if you almost NEVER see the TRUE side of the writers articles then how can you judge or critique their views/opinions?The only things we could comment on is their ethics and morals of operating as a PAID writer.

Their USED to be a standard that ALL editorials and advertising follow a code of non deception.Now a days that code has been long forgotten with MOST businesses purposely trying to deceive people for profits.

newbismx

Wizardry said:

You can't think about credentials when comes to writers because they do not write based on their true experiences on gaming over time.They write because they are often asked to write on a specific game to get PAID.

A real writer would simply write on a game because he /she enjoys writing about games.A REAL person would also write as if they were talking to a friend and not care one bit about the "professionalism CODE" to follow.Also a true person would not care one bit about "the business side" of getting paid nor often have to ask permission to post their writing on a game.The reason for the latter is because often these writers are invited by the studio to come and see the game beforehand and is under NDA.
So you often get manipulated or writings that are first inspected by the developer.The BUSINESS side of things is ALWAYS going to be a deterrent when comes to good articles and reading.
Point being that if you almost NEVER see the TRUE side of the writers articles then how can you judge or critique their views/opinions?

Nail on the head-

Thats why the comments section is where you'll often find the most insight and truth... Plus we get to laugh at Star Citizen.

Well said.

edit- Its always been this way too- I/we just didnt realize it. Looking through old gaming mags from the 90s with new insight and experience is a trip- I'l admit I was far more naive and believed what I read back then.

TEKK3N

I come here only for the Forums, but even that is getting boring.
Same threads that run for days, and the most ‘controversial’ posters pushed out of the frame.
People says MMORPG.com is toxic, but in my opinion is too sterilised, not too different from the official forums of the various games.

The news/articles are mostly irrelevant, and the amount of non MMORPG news is increasing exponentially.

If I wanted a generic gaming site, I would go to IGN or Eurogamer.

Renfail

Kyleran said:

The "MMORPG" credentials of the folks running this site?

A bit like walking into your local Chinese restaurant only to find out no one working there is actually Chinese.

I literally only bother with this site anymore because there is still a community here (for the moment) centered around MMORPGs, regardless if the current staff is. 

It still drives traffic. Enough to justify me spending time here to answer comments, be active in threads, etc. 

The moment the above stops being true, I'll be elsewhere. 

But I stopped coming here for the quality of the articles years ago. Until the current staff can prove otherwise, it's not an MMORPG news site for me. I only interact with community threads  

Dibdabs

seeyouspacec0wboy said:

...Do those of you who come from backgrounds like myself care less about what is written here when it comes from people who have only entered the genre recently?

Honestly, I couldn't care less if they've entered the genre recently or not.  Games aren't hard to understand or indeed to write about intelligently.  I was playing mmorpgs slightly over 20 years ago but that doesn't mean writers with the same gaming experience are any more important to me than any other gaming writer.   If I game for another 20 years do I, by extension, only pay attention to people who have been gaming 40 years?  The very idea seems stupid.

Utinni

I just want more reviews of RGB hdmi cables and lights that go behind your monitor.

Wenchesnmead

Dibdabs said:

seeyouspacec0wboy said:

...Do those of you who come from backgrounds like myself care less about what is written here when it comes from people who have only entered the genre recently?

Honestly, I couldn't care less if they've entered the genre recently or not.  Games aren't hard to understand or indeed to write about intelligently.  I was playing mmorpgs slightly over 20 years ago but that doesn't mean writers with the same gaming experience are any more important to me than any other gaming writer.   If I game for another 20 years do I, by extension, only pay attention to people who have been gaming 40 years?  The very idea seems stupid.

Absolutely spot on.

It's as ignorant as jerkoffs who ask people if they have degree in a subject they are speaking/writing/debating about.

As though that somehow invalidates whatever their position is if they don't.

centkin

Kyleran said:

The "MMORPG" credentials of the folks running this site?

A bit like walking into your local Chinese restaurant only to find out no one working there is actually Chinese.

There is a chinese restaurant around here that is run by people with no chinese ancestry.  It serves food of an equal quality with the other such restaurants nearby.  What people refer to as chinese food in the USA is americanized chinese food.  It would never be served to you if you were at a friend's house who came from China.  It is odd to profile a restaurant based on the style of food it serves.

centkin

The thing I find odd about the genre these days is before 100,000 people playing was a success -- now it is a dismal failure.  When you need 5 million people playing just to break even, the kind of game you can make becomes far narrower.  It has removed many niches from availability.  I mean even in things like golf games, golfstar, pangya -- gone.  This is sad.  I mean I can bring out a SNES and play an old SNES game, but for a lot of the games that we remember, once they are closed they are gone. 

Ungood

Wenchesnmead said:

Dibdabs said:

seeyouspacec0wboy said:

...Do those of you who come from backgrounds like myself care less about what is written here when it comes from people who have only entered the genre recently?

Honestly, I couldn't care less if they've entered the genre recently or not.  Games aren't hard to understand or indeed to write about intelligently.  I was playing mmorpgs slightly over 20 years ago but that doesn't mean writers with the same gaming experience are any more important to me than any other gaming writer.   If I game for another 20 years do I, by extension, only pay attention to people who have been gaming 40 years?  The very idea seems stupid.

Absolutely spot on.

It's as ignorant as jerkoffs who ask people if they have degree in a subject they are speaking/writing/debating about.

As though that somehow invalidates whatever their position is if they don't.

This really depends on what the discussion is.

If they are speaking/writing/debating about the best way to fix the axles of my Jeep Wrangler, then yes, credentials are very important, as my life depends on not screwing that up.

If they are speaking/writing/debating on what they think is the best color icing for a spring themed cake, then, while I would take a professional cake makers opnion over someone with no cake making experience, there is no harm done in giving each person their due to express their opnion.

If they are talking/writing/debating about what they think is the best ride at Disney World, then, since it's all a matter of opnion anyway, everyone is free to chime in and talk.

Which brings us back to the OP, if someone wants to talk/write/debate about what they love/hate about an MMO, then buy all means, everyone join in.

Sovrath

Caffynated said:

Kyleran said:

The "MMORPG" credentials of the folks running this site?

A bit like walking into your local Chinese restaurant only to find out no one working there is actually Chinese.

Chinese people rarely make good "Chinese food" in my experience. Authentic Chinese feed is pretty bleh, and I much prefer the Americanized version. Kind of like the difference between Mexican food and Tex-Mex. 99% of Americans who say they love "Mexican food" actually prefer Tex-Mex and would find authentic Mexican food gross or at least unappealing.

That's probably why the attempts by "industry veterans" to recreate old MMOs have met with such disaster. We've been exposed to beef fajita nachos covered in molten cheese with savory spices and can't go back to green goop on a corn tortilla.

The MMO industry needs fresh ideas more than the current trend of "old is new again."

I wouldn't say it's not good I would say it caters to authenticity and the average American's taste might not like authentic ethnic food.

As far as the title/discussion, the idea that we can have video game credentials gives me the shivers. But "whatever."

I started with Lineage 2 and I'm find reading the opinion of people who never lost .04% xp on a death when it took me a few days to get it.

Also, this site started as a fan site for Star Wars Galaxies players (if memory serves from what I was told) and it has always had a bit of a "fan vibe."

I come here to talk video games with a usual cast of characters along with special guests. That's satisfying enough for me.

Amaranthar

newbismx said:

Its all changed- But the change happened on the web as a whole and it continues to change as it becomes more like interactive television.

The computer, the web and computer games (especially CRPG's and MMORPG's) were the domain of nerds  back in the day- Most of us came from a tabletop environment and were part of geek culture before it became mainstream and 'cool'.

As the masses started invading , we pretty much were forgotten and everything shifted towards the new and larger mass market that was coming into our domain and replacing us...Everything was effectively 'dumbed down' to the lowest common denominator .

I see people acting as if this site just changed recently when it changed hands- This site had essentially died when they started censoring hardcore back around 2012/2013 or something- MMORPGs were pretty much dead then and the users coming had had thin skins and demanded a safe space- This has trickled across the entire internet now.

You're not mistaken in your assessment but what is there really to talk about ?  Us old timers who still know what usenet is have been replaced as gaming has replaced Hollywood as the main money maker. MMORPG's are pretty much dead in the form we played them (and the way we believed they would evolve) and they arent coming back- All we would do is write bitching articles so better to find people who still find enjoyment in the cash shop sewer swamp of what passes for the genre these days.

Sorry for the unfocused rambling as well- Just waking up from a nap - What us old folks do on valentines day lol- 

Speaking of "safe places", I believe that every gimp in the world has a safe place these days, and they are never "put in their place" because of this. That's a bad thing, in my mind. It's like letting mold grow until it becomes a health hazard. 

Hell, I remember my 7th grade teacher had a huge, decorative paddle. 
That thing inspired fear! 
It was custom made for him. It was almost as tall as a man, and was reminiscent of William Wallace's huge two handed sword. 
It had a two handed handle, routed edges, and polished to a sheen.
But worst of all, it had decorative holes all along the working length of it, cut in a decorative pattern along the length. 
These holes were said to have been placed so as to increase pain! 

And there it hung, on the front wall, between two long chalk boards like a place of sanctity.

No one broke the rules in that classroom. No one. 
Gimps were made into men. 
Industries flourished. 
Wars were won. 

Time passed. That teacher retired, aged, died, and fell into local lore and legend.
But I can attest to the reality of that giant paddle. 
I saw it! 
But never did I challenge it's retribution! 

What happened to that paddle is still a subject of debate. 
A quest was mounted, an excursion was funded by local industrial leaders. 
But what had happened to it is still left to speculation.
Some say that it is housed in a secret underground storage room at the local historical museum.
Others say that it was absorbed into the military's secret weapons program.
Still others say that it was ascended into Heaven, along with it's owner. 
The truth, is hard to say.  

(This story is only slightly exaggerated,   , but that paddle was very real. The stuff of legend.)