My Final point TURN
UP THE DIFFICULTY X10 and all these games became mmorpg's again (with
community). Other than balancing things,
all normal features seem to be in place automatically.
Short
There I made it short for you
You're right of course. The one time you're right. However, I think most of us would agree the accessibility features are desirable, like map markers or instances. These're also called quality of life features. These things CAN be confused with challenge or difficult, however. Inventory encumbrance, for example, can be an influence in combat, depending on how it's implemented. Death penalty also can be an influence, even though most players consider it a hindrance. In general, features which incorporate strategy and/or tactics can be tied to difficulty--the more the merrior. Quality of life features, or accessibility features, are generally things that reduce repetitiveness or tedious activities, so are usually easily separated.
So wherever said feature is not easily relatable to accessibility or quality of life, it's probably somehow tied to this decline we've been seeing whereby the lowest common denominator is observed and followed religiously, to the detriment of difficulty, challenge and/or community.
EDIT: I should say quality of life or accessibility can be associated with soloing. Many players would not play an MMORPG if they can't solo effectively. This would be a detriment to community, as example when players disappear into their solo universe and rarely ever come out of it. What's worse is they're in instances. Instances are considered quality of life, but they too can reduce community if players choose to disappear into their private universe. Bear in mind soloing or instances don't equal low difficulty. A MMORPG with soloing and instances can still be brutally challenging.
So increasing difficulty will not resolve the community problem. It's true a problem can be so difficult only two or more players can solve it, but this doesn't mean it's any more difficult than a player soloing. I think a solo task can be equally mentally demanding. Community is separate. When a problem is so immense it requires the efforts or abilities of another player, that doesn't automatically make something more difficulty, rather it introduces a social or community experience.
So, to condense all of hte above, I'll say to make MMORPGs like they were in the past you must increase difficulty AND increase reliance on other players, whilst preserving modern quality of life features.
My Final point TURN
UP THE DIFFICULTY X10 and all these games became mmorpg's again (with
community). Other than balancing things,
all normal features seem to be in place automatically.
Short
There I made it short for you
You're right of course. The one time you're right. However, I think most of us would agree the accessibility features are desirable, like map markers or instances. These're also called quality of life features. These things CAN be confused with challenge or difficult, however. Inventory encumbrance, for example, can be an influence in combat, depending on how it's implemented. Death penalty also can be an influence, even though most players consider it a hindrance. In general, features which incorporate strategy and/or tactics can be tied to difficulty--the more the merrior. Quality of life features, or accessibility features, are generally things that reduce repetitiveness or tedious activities, so are usually easily separated.
So wherever said feature is not easily relatable to accessibility or quality of life, it's probably somehow tied to this decline we've been seeing whereby the lowest common denominator is observed and followed religiously, to the detriment of difficulty, challenge and/or community.
EDIT: I should say quality of life or accessibility can be associated with soloing. Many players would not play an MMORPG if they can't solo effectively. This would be a detriment to community, as example when players disappear into their solo universe and rarely ever come out of it. What's worse is they're in instances. Instances are considered quality of life, but they too can reduce community if players choose to disappear into their private universe. Bear in mind soloing or instances don't equal low difficulty. A MMORPG with soloing and instances can still be brutally challenging.
So increasing difficulty will not resolve the community problem. It's true a problem can be so difficult only two or more players can solve it, but this doesn't mean it's any more difficult than a player soloing. I think a solo task can be equally mentally demanding. Community is separate. When a problem is so immense it requires the efforts or abilities of another player, that doesn't automatically make something more difficulty, rather it introduces a social or community experience.
So, to condense all of hte above, I'll say to make MMORPGs like they were in the past you must increase difficulty AND increase reliance on other players, whilst preserving modern quality of life features.
First, thank you for the keeping it short fix...... Seriously I'm still learning to do better and this is a much needed help
What your talking
about here is somewhat off topic, where my topic is focused on "combat difficulty" to bring the community together....... Your right in a way, I should have stated "combat", to focus the topic more.
Your talking about automatic pleasantries vs. grind. This is a different type of difficulty. In some ways, fast travel can get you to your group faster enhancing communities, but immersion pays a price.
This is left to the
authors discretion of game design. Much
like a writers style. The reader may or
may not like it.
I have a great
example,
It just so happens I
stumbled on a revelation I never understood with Everquest 2 with all my years
of play.
"Food and drink" drastically effects player health and strength more so than other games. It's a level of grid I never knew existed.
With knowing this crafting as a provisioner
could be lucrative as you can deeply enhance your character, and be lucrative
in selling your product because this grind portion is important to EQ2. It's a grind choice I like, you may not.
Design choice would
a great new topic, unfortunately it doesn't pertain to this topic.
My Final point TURN
UP THE DIFFICULTY X10 and all these games became mmorpg's again (with
community). Other than balancing things,
all normal features seem to be in place automatically.
Short
*skip*
So, to condense all of hte above, I'll say to make MMORPGs like they
were in the past you must increase difficulty AND increase reliance on
other players, whilst preserving modern quality of life features.
First, thank you for the keeping it short fix...... Seriously I'm still learning to do better and this is a much needed help
What your talking
about here is somewhat off topic, where my topic is focused on "combat difficulty" to bring the community together....... Your right in a way, I should have stated "combat", to focus the topic more.
Your talking about automatic pleasantries vs. grind. This is a different type of difficulty. In some ways, fast travel can get you to your group faster enhancing communities, but immersion pays a price.
*skip*
Design choice would
a great new topic, unfortunately it doesn't pertain to this topic.
Increasing the combat difficulty so it requires two or more players doesn't mean your MMO is more challenging in combat than a MMO with solo combat, so it doesn't also follow two or more players will be needed. That's a design choice, not a prerequisite for difficult combat. Neither does increasing the combat difficulty in a modern MMORPG mean it won't be happening in an instance, and instances will impact the emergence of community.
Remember you stated increasing the combat difficult in a modern MMORPG will make it like an old MMORPG. This is wrong. A strong community of interdependence is not guaranteed on this basis alone.
But I am strongly siding with you, despite disagreeing on semantics. Here:
Those early games, in all their brutal
punishment and so-called 'abuse' of the players actually gave the
players something that instinctively motivated them to form the
foundation of a strong societal framework within the confines of the
game world. In layman's terms: those rats handing you your ass
just outside the Freeport city gates actually made you actively seek out
other players for protection. You would form groups for adventuring because the world was just to tough without them, and the cost of death was too high.
My point is to say interdependence doesn't require difficult combat, it just requires you need another player to kill something. And my definition for difficult is mentally challenging. An MMO that requires you to kill something with others can be the most mentally unchallenging game in existence. The two things are not interchangeable.
My Final point TURN
UP THE DIFFICULTY X10 and all these games became mmorpg's again (with
community). Other than balancing things,
all normal features seem to be in place automatically.
Short
*skip*
So, to condense all of hte above, I'll say to make MMORPGs like they
were in the past you must increase difficulty AND increase reliance on
other players, whilst preserving modern quality of life features.
First, thank you for the keeping it short fix...... Seriously I'm still learning to do better and this is a much needed help
What your talking
about here is somewhat off topic, where my topic is focused on "combat difficulty" to bring the community together....... Your right in a way, I should have stated "combat", to focus the topic more.
Your talking about automatic pleasantries vs. grind. This is a different type of difficulty. In some ways, fast travel can get you to your group faster enhancing communities, but immersion pays a price.
*skip*
Design choice would
a great new topic, unfortunately it doesn't pertain to this topic.
Increasing the combat difficulty so it requires two or more players doesn't mean your MMO is more challenging in combat than a MMO with solo combat, so it doesn't also follow two or more players will be needed. That's a design choice, not a prerequisite for difficult combat. Neither does increasing the combat difficulty in a modern MMORPG mean it won't be happening in an instance, and instances will impact the emergence of community.
Remember you stated increasing the combat difficult in a modern MMORPG will make it like an old MMORPG. This is wrong. A strong community of interdependence is not guaranteed on this basis alone.
But I am strongly siding with you, despite disagreeing on semantics. Here:
Those early games, in all their brutal
punishment and so-called 'abuse' of the players actually gave the
players something that instinctively motivated them to form the
foundation of a strong societal framework within the confines of the
game world. In layman's terms: those rats handing you your ass
just outside the Freeport city gates actually made you actively seek out
other players for protection. You would form groups for adventuring because the world was just to tough without them, and the cost of death was too high.
My point is to say interdependence doesn't require difficult combat, it just requires you need another player to kill something. And my definition for difficult is mentally challenging. An MMO that requires you to kill something with others can be the most mentally unchallenging game in existence. The two things are not interchangeable.
This is a good point, and in a game like DDO, a large part of the challenge is building your character.
a lot of players put in a huge amount of effort and thought, and planning and farming, into building a very sold solo character.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
It's not as easy as making a game more difficult. You first have to decide what will be difficult?
1. Time invested; 2. Group vs solo content; 3. Strategy and tactics; 4. Eye/Hand (Twitch); 5. Being a student of the game/knowing your class; 6. Social interaction/reputation; and 7. Elimination of convenience and having penalties for mistakes.
and so on.
And when you make some or all of those changes, what's left still has to be FUN for enough people to have a viable game.
To the OP's credit, combat was apparently the thing to make more difficult. There're a lot of pitfalls however. "TURN
UP THE DIFFICULTY X10 and all these games became mmorpg's again (with
community)" Simple statements are wonderful, but from a simple idea to full implemnentation a lot can happen unfortunately!!!
Look at the wreckage! So much carnage and dead MMO's that never launched or never prospered. It's not easy.
Not only does the difficulty need to be turned up in many cases but, more importantly imo, the penalty for failure needs to be turned up.
The penalty for failure is directly related to the difficulty/challenge level but it is often not focused on in discussions about "challenge".
Players are constantly pushing the limits of efficieny...exp per minute through aoe/max loot per time frame etc. Even if the content isn't super challenging if the penalty for failure is harsh enough it forces players to change their play style (for the better imo).
If you opt to subscribe to the game, like everyone cries they want a game that gives them a subscription.
Remember when ddo was a pure subscription model only before it went free to play? It was such a good game back then. I thought Turbine did a good job at first. Then the community changed like often happens when you allow players to play for free. It became such a cesspool of monetization.
If you opt to subscribe to the game, like everyone cries they want a game that gives them a subscription.
Remember when ddo was a pure subscription model only before it went free to play? It was such a good game back then. I thought Turbine did a good job at first. Then the community changed like often happens when you allow players to play for free. It became such a cesspool of monetization.
It was the same game before and after the transition from Sub to F2P, however, before it went went F2P, it had a small dying community who were always expecting to hear that it was going to be shut down, and they were overjoyed and welcoming to the influx of new players that saved their favorite game.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
... Then the community changed like often happens when you allow players to play for free.
It was the same game before and after the transition from Sub to F2P, however, before it went went F2P, it had a small dying community who were always expecting to hear that it was going to be shut down, and they were overjoyed and welcoming to the influx of new players that saved their favorite game.
Yep, "often happens" that posters forget DDO's switch was a "why not, it can't cause more damage" kinda scenario.
Or that the outcome was unpredictable, since it was the first time... there was no "the community changed like often happens". I believe not even Turbine expected such a massive result, that switch literally saved DDO from the cancel.
Now, LotRO's switch a year later, that was all about the money, and ironically (how often I defend its f2p model against the more predatory newer models) at that time I was against the switch It just proves a decade is a really long time and people's opinions can change.
I argued with the same line TwoTubes used. While it's incorrect with DDO, it was valid a year later: LotRO's population was fine at that time (f2p was added just for the money), and DDO's year after the switch showed some drawbacks of the huge influx. A lot of us were worried about LotRO's communities.
(and the effect was there, you could notice the change - on the short term. After a couple years it was ironed out.)
What I love about this thread is that life can throw a pandemic at us and we still need to tell people how a MMO should be made.
WoW your right, The world is in shambles, and can go from a phone call telling me I will be getting the worst form of chemotherapy imaginable, with a low success rate to live (maybe 5 years at best). Yet 10 minuets later here am telling everyone how it should be done..... I think I have a problem !
Trying a new
approach someone suggested, keep it short and to the point.
Short version,
In studying Elders
Scrolls Online, I pumped myself up with so much energy to play it was amazing. Features, quality, graphics. Could
actually surpass World of Warcraft.
This is until I
watched Youtube footage. No damage
ever. People maximizing their characters
along with deep crafting……… all for what ?.... To gather 40 and kill them all
faster than just 30 ?
Really, REALLY
!!! Whats with that ?
Three possible
reasons I could think of:
- low amount of
content, get you to end game in 30 days, and lazy balance of creatures.
- 4 year old Johnny
can play too.
- Rush you to the
next paid expansion.
Same with GW2, FF14,
ESO, WoW and most all second generation games.
My Final point TURN
UP THE DIFFICULTY X10 and all these games became mmorpg's again (with
community). Other than balancing things,
all normal features seem to be in place automatically.
Short
Problem: I saw a youtube video where character X took no damage!
Solution: Don't play like character X if you want the game to be harder.
Short.
Your post lacks any context for the video. For all anyone knows, this could be a highly developed, highly geared player messing around with comparative fodder. It could be the fruition of an exceptionally powerful build taking on apt content.
Regardless, ESO has group content. Those wishing to participate in the most extreme of that are expected to bring particular builds noted for their power and perform well with them. If that's what you want, then go for it until you get there.
If you'd rather not take it to that extreme, you could instead play a lesser build and take on more difficult content than the game is inclined to hand out in offered missions. It is easy to seek out challenging encounters overland or in any of the many delves you can enter largely at your whim.
You can make ESO as hard as you want. If you are keen to do so with others, perhaps you can find some like-minded fellows, or form a guild devoted to such.
Lots of good advice here to increase "self challenge". Also some good advice to "seek other for a challenge".
BUT an mmorpg should have automatic challenge. It's like the play naked thing....It's not right or not natural for a game to be that way in a co-op setting.
It's not about tips and trick its about the over all persona of the game.
An mmorpg original Intent is to have a harsh environment for all. Where did I get this definition from ?...... It was an un spoken given, no one talks about it, it was that much of a given.
For the life of me, How can anyone care to be a healer, when healing is not needed. How can someone want to lead a party and take damage if no damage is dealt. Why craft if gear and stats mean zero. Why really want that power ability way down on the tree if it has no meaning ?
Why go off and test builds for best performance if the scale is so far off you ned to fight 40 mobs to give you an indicate of strength ?
Are people really playing simply for story and treasure?
Or is it the only choice by developer design ?
I'm mystified on how no one seems to care about challenge AT ALL... It's like no one here.
The harshness of original MMORPGs had a niche audience. They succeeded because the menu was otherwise empty. It wasn't until the comparatively welcoming WoW that the genre became widely embraced.
The unspoken given was dwarfed by the spoken taken when the menu expanded, at the very least challenging the validity of those earlier assumptions.
Lessons were learned.
The baseline difficulty for ESO, and I expect most recent MMORPGs, is intended to cast a wide net. Population produces profit. Unless one is content with the profits a niche title brings you must appeal to as many as possible.
Hence, the majority of content must remain approachable to the casual. For those wanting more, ESO obliges as I mentioned earlier.
If you think you can play ESO without healing, by all means play the game and see how well that works for you. If you think gear doesn't matter, all the more so the more challenging the content you take on, then play naked and see how far you get.
If you don't think only the highest performing players with the most optimal gear and builds are demanded for the most extreme content, you'll never find out unless you dance to their tune.
You may have seen some videos of extremely powerful characters doing for them what seemed trivial, as one can do for just about any MMORPG, but such doesn't represent the typical and shouldn't be construed as the totality of what the game is.
As for myself, I must actively prevent as much damage as I can with blocks, interrupts, and dodges and must often supplement with heals if I don't want a quick death even in the overland. Maybe I'm just not that good at it, but it is more engaging and challenging than most MMORPGs that I've personally played. I won't be rushing to put out any videos of my expertise any time soon, that's for sure.
Anyway, if hard as nails through and through is the only thing that will do ESO obviously won't suffice. Neither will anything else, except perhaps private servers of some of the earliest MMORPGs released.
What I love about this thread is that life can throw a pandemic at us and we still need to tell people how a MMO should be made.
WoW your right, The world is in shambles, and can go from a phone call telling me I will be getting the worst form of chemotherapy imaginable, with a low success rate to live (maybe 5 years at best). Yet 10 minuets later here am telling everyone how it should be done..... I think I have a problem !
Just make sure you put your well being before everything else you do, as long as you do that being on here is fine.
... Then the community changed like often happens when you allow players to play for free.
It was the same game before and after the transition from Sub to F2P, however, before it went went F2P, it had a small dying community who were always expecting to hear that it was going to be shut down, and they were overjoyed and welcoming to the influx of new players that saved their favorite game.
Yep, "often happens" that posters forget DDO's switch was a "why not, it can't cause more damage" kinda scenario.
Or that the outcome was unpredictable, since it was the first time... there was no "the community changed like often happens". I believe not even Turbine expected such a massive result, that switch literally saved DDO from the cancel.
(snip)
(and the effect was there, you could notice the change - on the short term. After a couple years it was ironed out.)
It was not a "Why not? What's the worst that can happen"
It was a "We need to do something or this game will get shut down"
It was in every sense of the word a desperation move to keep the game alive, and all the informed players knew that, and yes, it saved DDO from being closed down. Everyone also knew that.
As for the population, LOL, DDO was built for players that were into optimized builds and heavy farming, we already had a solid reputation for having a very toxic egotistical player base full of snobs... LOL, if you read some of the "Welcome to the New F2P DDO" ads, as that a whole new thing at the time, they would warn players about the population being full of, abrasive judgmental assholes veteran players.
So it was not like we were all holding hands and living in peace and harmony in some utopia before it went F2P, far from it.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
What I love about this thread is that life can throw a pandemic at us and we still need to tell people how a MMO should be made.
We're gamers "This game sucks" is our coping mechanism, apparently.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
It was a "We need to do something or this game will get shut down"
It was in every sense of the word a desperation move to keep the game alive, and all the informed players knew that, and yes, it saved DDO from being closed down. Everyone also knew that.
I was actually ageeing with you in that post, maybe my wording was wrong
But now on this desperation I have to disagree (wasn't there, don't get me wrong. And the rumours can be false obviously, so I may be wrong).
It was already a fact that the game is done.
Just instead of a regular cancel like most companies did at the late 2000s (hi there Ncsoft...), Turbine decided to give a try for the f2p, since there's nothing to lose with it.
I'm sure they've had no idea with this move they'll spearhead a landslide of a change...
As for the player reputation, it wasn't that bad. EVE had much worse street cred at those times.
It was a "We need to do something or this game will get shut down"
It was in every sense of the word a desperation move to keep the game alive, and all the informed players knew that, and yes, it saved DDO from being closed down. Everyone also knew that.
I was actually ageeing with you in that post, maybe my wording was wrong
But now on this desperation I have to disagree (wasn't there, don't get me wrong. And the rumours can be false obviously, so I may be wrong).
It was already a fact that the game is done.
Just instead of a regular cancel like most companies did at the late 2000s (hi there Ncsoft...), Turbine decided to give a try for the f2p, since there's nothing to lose with it.
I'm sure they've had no idea with this move they'll spearhead a landslide of a change...
As for the player reputation, it wasn't that bad. EVE had much worse street cred at those times.
OK.. maybe it was not as bad as EVE, but it was still bad, to the point that going F2P didn't hurt our overall reputation, nor did it have any real impact in the in-game community.
I think the biggest impact was the existing trolls we had that we banned, just made Free accounts and came back to post, so.. it more our own shit bobbing back up, then an influx of new shit.
Egotism is the anesthetic that dullens the pain of stupidity, this is why when I try to beat my head against the stupidity of other people, I only hurt myself.
Trying a new
approach someone suggested, keep it short and to the point.
Short version,
In studying Elders
Scrolls Online, I pumped myself up with so much energy to play it was amazing. Features, quality, graphics. Could
actually surpass World of Warcraft.
This is until I
watched Youtube footage. No damage
ever. People maximizing their characters
along with deep crafting……… all for what ?.... To gather 40 and kill them all
faster than just 30 ?
Really, REALLY
!!! Whats with that ?
Three possible
reasons I could think of:
- low amount of
content, get you to end game in 30 days, and lazy balance of creatures.
- 4 year old Johnny
can play too.
- Rush you to the
next paid expansion.
Same with GW2, FF14,
ESO, WoW and most all second generation games.
My Final point TURN
UP THE DIFFICULTY X10 and all these games became mmorpg's again (with
community). Other than balancing things,
all normal features seem to be in place automatically.
Short
Problem: I saw a youtube video where character X took no damage!
Solution: Don't play like character X if you want the game to be harder.
Short.
Your post lacks any context for the video. For all anyone knows, this could be a highly developed, highly geared player messing around with comparative fodder. It could be the fruition of an exceptionally powerful build taking on apt content.
Regardless, ESO has group content. Those wishing to participate in the most extreme of that are expected to bring particular builds noted for their power and perform well with them. If that's what you want, then go for it until you get there.
If you'd rather not take it to that extreme, you could instead play a lesser build and take on more difficult content than the game is inclined to hand out in offered missions. It is easy to seek out challenging encounters overland or in any of the many delves you can enter largely at your whim.
You can make ESO as hard as you want. If you are keen to do so with others, perhaps you can find some like-minded fellows, or form a guild devoted to such.
Lots of good advice here to increase "self challenge". Also some good advice to "seek other for a challenge".
BUT an mmorpg should have automatic challenge. It's like the play naked thing....It's not right or not natural for a game to be that way in a co-op setting.
It's not about tips and trick its about the over all persona of the game.
An mmorpg original Intent is to have a harsh environment for all. Where did I get this definition from ?...... It was an un spoken given, no one talks about it, it was that much of a given.
For the life of me, How can anyone care to be a healer, when healing is not needed. How can someone want to lead a party and take damage if no damage is dealt. Why craft if gear and stats mean zero. Why really want that power ability way down on the tree if it has no meaning ?
Why go off and test builds for best performance if the scale is so far off you ned to fight 40 mobs to give you an indicate of strength ?
Are people really playing simply for story and treasure?
Or is it the only choice by developer design ?
I'm mystified on how no one seems to care about challenge AT ALL... It's like no one here.
I'm mystified why you aren't off raiding Blackwing Lair in WOW Classic.
Oh yeah, that's right, you have to pay a sub for it, nevermind.
See you still don't get the point....I'm still mystified no one understands, right here you talk as if I'm looking for hardcore maximum difficulty.
I take you as a sensible person, I always have. Yet the example of having to gather up 40 to take ANY DAMAGE is not a good enough example for you.
These games are zero damage, infact most all of them !
Black wing Lair in WoW classic has to be a dig..... At least I hope so, because your not stupid.
Besides the fact WOW Classic dungeon content (5 person groups) is reasonably difficult, certainly can't be soloed on level, you stated in your OP wanting the difficulty amped by 10 times....so I figured you'd want to be doing the most difficult content.
Here's the thing... you cant be bothered to set aside the time and effort to do 40 person raids, which is all on you really.
Oh, you want the open world content to be much harder? Easy solution, fight on level content while undergeared, or wearing no gear at all, play a Warrior for extra challenge, no sissy kiting or letting pets tank for you.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Trying a new
approach someone suggested, keep it short and to the point.
Short version,
In studying Elders
Scrolls Online, I pumped myself up with so much energy to play it was amazing. Features, quality, graphics. Could
actually surpass World of Warcraft.
This is until I
watched Youtube footage. No damage
ever. People maximizing their characters
along with deep crafting……… all for what ?.... To gather 40 and kill them all
faster than just 30 ?
Really, REALLY
!!! Whats with that ?
Three possible
reasons I could think of:
- low amount of
content, get you to end game in 30 days, and lazy balance of creatures.
- 4 year old Johnny
can play too.
- Rush you to the
next paid expansion.
Same with GW2, FF14,
ESO, WoW and most all second generation games.
My Final point TURN
UP THE DIFFICULTY X10 and all these games became mmorpg's again (with
community). Other than balancing things,
all normal features seem to be in place automatically.
Short
Problem: I saw a youtube video where character X took no damage!
Solution: Don't play like character X if you want the game to be harder.
Short.
Your post lacks any context for the video. For all anyone knows, this could be a highly developed, highly geared player messing around with comparative fodder. It could be the fruition of an exceptionally powerful build taking on apt content.
Regardless, ESO has group content. Those wishing to participate in the most extreme of that are expected to bring particular builds noted for their power and perform well with them. If that's what you want, then go for it until you get there.
If you'd rather not take it to that extreme, you could instead play a lesser build and take on more difficult content than the game is inclined to hand out in offered missions. It is easy to seek out challenging encounters overland or in any of the many delves you can enter largely at your whim.
You can make ESO as hard as you want. If you are keen to do so with others, perhaps you can find some like-minded fellows, or form a guild devoted to such.
Lots of good advice here to increase "self challenge". Also some good advice to "seek other for a challenge".
BUT an mmorpg should have automatic challenge. It's like the play naked thing....It's not right or not natural for a game to be that way in a co-op setting.
It's not about tips and trick its about the over all persona of the game.
An mmorpg original Intent is to have a harsh environment for all. Where did I get this definition from ?...... It was an un spoken given, no one talks about it, it was that much of a given.
For the life of me, How can anyone care to be a healer, when healing is not needed. How can someone want to lead a party and take damage if no damage is dealt. Why craft if gear and stats mean zero. Why really want that power ability way down on the tree if it has no meaning ?
Why go off and test builds for best performance if the scale is so far off you ned to fight 40 mobs to give you an indicate of strength ?
Are people really playing simply for story and treasure?
Or is it the only choice by developer design ?
I'm mystified on how no one seems to care about challenge AT ALL... It's like no one here.
I'm mystified why you aren't off raiding Blackwing Lair in WOW Classic.
Oh yeah, that's right, you have to pay a sub for it, nevermind.
See you still don't get the point....I'm still mystified no one understands, right here you talk as if I'm looking for hardcore maximum difficulty.
I take you as a sensible person, I always have. Yet the example of having to gather up 40 to take ANY DAMAGE is not a good enough example for you.
These games are zero damage, infact most all of them !
Black wing Lair in WoW classic has to be a dig..... At least I hope so, because your not stupid.
Besides the fact WOW Classic dungeon content (5 person groups) is reasonably difficult, certainly can't be soloed on level, you stated in your OP wanting the difficulty amped by 10 times....so I figured you'd want to be doing the most difficult content.
Here's the thing... you cant be bothered to set aside the time and effort to do 40 person raids, which is all on you really.
Oh, you want the open world content to be much harder? Easy solution, fight on level content while undergeared, or wearing no gear at all, play a Warrior for extra challenge, no sissy kiting or letting pets tank for you.
Problem solved, right?
You're missing the key part which he put in parenthesis "(with community)"
What he really wants is for everyone else to have to do difficult content because in his mind that will force a community to be created through need.
Nothing particularly original in that thought that gets trotted out at least 10 times a week in these forums. It's a glorification of clunky and primitive mechanics in early MMOs that coincided with a group of like-minded early MMO adoptees who formed good communities thanks to the second part, not the shitty designs we put up with.
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
I doubt Delete has ever played FFXIV to know if the raids and dungeons are hard or not lol. Coming into the game as a new player there is enough to keep you busy for a long time.
Trying a new
approach someone suggested, keep it short and to the point.
Short version,
In studying Elders
Scrolls Online, I pumped myself up with so much energy to play it was amazing. Features, quality, graphics. Could
actually surpass World of Warcraft.
This is until I
watched Youtube footage. No damage
ever. People maximizing their characters
along with deep crafting……… all for what ?.... To gather 40 and kill them all
faster than just 30 ?
Really, REALLY
!!! Whats with that ?
Three possible
reasons I could think of:
- low amount of
content, get you to end game in 30 days, and lazy balance of creatures.
- 4 year old Johnny
can play too.
- Rush you to the
next paid expansion.
Same with GW2, FF14,
ESO, WoW and most all second generation games.
My Final point TURN
UP THE DIFFICULTY X10 and all these games became mmorpg's again (with
community). Other than balancing things,
all normal features seem to be in place automatically.
Short
Problem: I saw a youtube video where character X took no damage!
Solution: Don't play like character X if you want the game to be harder.
Short.
Your post lacks any context for the video. For all anyone knows, this could be a highly developed, highly geared player messing around with comparative fodder. It could be the fruition of an exceptionally powerful build taking on apt content.
Regardless, ESO has group content. Those wishing to participate in the most extreme of that are expected to bring particular builds noted for their power and perform well with them. If that's what you want, then go for it until you get there.
If you'd rather not take it to that extreme, you could instead play a lesser build and take on more difficult content than the game is inclined to hand out in offered missions. It is easy to seek out challenging encounters overland or in any of the many delves you can enter largely at your whim.
You can make ESO as hard as you want. If you are keen to do so with others, perhaps you can find some like-minded fellows, or form a guild devoted to such.
Lots of good advice here to increase "self challenge". Also some good advice to "seek other for a challenge".
BUT an mmorpg should have automatic challenge. It's like the play naked thing....It's not right or not natural for a game to be that way in a co-op setting.
It's not about tips and trick its about the over all persona of the game.
An mmorpg original Intent is to have a harsh environment for all. Where did I get this definition from ?...... It was an un spoken given, no one talks about it, it was that much of a given.
For the life of me, How can anyone care to be a healer, when healing is not needed. How can someone want to lead a party and take damage if no damage is dealt. Why craft if gear and stats mean zero. Why really want that power ability way down on the tree if it has no meaning ?
Why go off and test builds for best performance if the scale is so far off you ned to fight 40 mobs to give you an indicate of strength ?
Are people really playing simply for story and treasure?
Or is it the only choice by developer design ?
I'm mystified on how no one seems to care about challenge AT ALL... It's like no one here.
I'm mystified why you aren't off raiding Blackwing Lair in WOW Classic.
Oh yeah, that's right, you have to pay a sub for it, nevermind.
See you still don't get the point....I'm still mystified no one understands, right here you talk as if I'm looking for hardcore maximum difficulty.
I take you as a sensible person, I always have. Yet the example of having to gather up 40 to take ANY DAMAGE is not a good enough example for you.
These games are zero damage, infact most all of them !
Black wing Lair in WoW classic has to be a dig..... At least I hope so, because your not stupid.
Besides the fact WOW Classic dungeon content (5 person groups) is reasonably difficult, certainly can't be soloed on level, you stated in your OP wanting the difficulty amped by 10 times....so I figured you'd want to be doing the most difficult content.
Here's the thing... you cant be bothered to set aside the time and effort to do 40 person raids, which is all on you really.
Oh, you want the open world content to be much harder? Easy solution, fight on level content while undergeared, or wearing no gear at all, play a Warrior for extra challenge, no sissy kiting or letting pets tank for you.
Problem solved, right?
I'm so disappointed in this community.....@Kyleran
It's not a matter of my intelligence, i'll never say I'm better than anyone, I'm extremely compassionate, caring and loving and would never look down on anyone.... I'm very God minded and LOVE everyone.
But it's like I'm the only one that sees the ham sandwich on the table...... I'm looking at a nice sandwich with people all around me and that sees nothing but a dish...... It's that bad !
I'll be getting "WTF" instead of saying I get your point.... This is a deeper level of delusional......
** I'm not sure I'll get a band for this, I don't think I should, my intentions are good, I don't mean any ill intentions, if so let it be, I may have to give up here anyway **
Zero damage..... Zero damage , its like 90% here are clueless !!! It's like mass hysteria, how the majority are blind to combat being broken.
- people suggesting for "me" to take off armor for a challenge to get what I want....... It's not a matter of "me", its a matter of games are broken !
- Nothing wrong with liking zero damage, it's a matter of taste, but to deny ZERO DAMAGE is delusional...... I hate to isolate myself even more, but is most everyone under this delusion ?....... I'm really questioning most everyone here at this time.
*It's important* To watch this video to remove any question how easy mmoprgs are to the point their ALL BROKEN FOR COMBAT !
Please hummer me everyone, This is topical of combat ease..... It's not a special case, hundreds of videos can be found simply by typing making gold, farming regular game play.
Gather up 40....... Take no damage !!..... I'm vary aware how people feel about my wording,spelling and grammar......But "zero damage" is not good enough ?
ESO, FF14..... should i have to prove WoW and GW2..... I can't believe I have to go this far at all
It's not a matter of my intelligence, i'll never say I'm better than anyone, I'm extremely compassionate, caring and loving and would never look down on anyone.... I'm very God minded and LOVE everyone.
But it's like I'm the only one that sees the ham sandwich on the table...... I'm looking at a nice sandwich with people all around me and that sees nothing but a dish...... It's that bad !
I'll be getting "WTF" instead of saying I get your point.... This is a deeper level of delusional......
** I'm not sure I'll get a band for this, I don't think I should, my intentions are good, I don't mean any ill intentions, if so let it be, I may have to give up here anyway **
Zero damage..... Zero damage , its like 90% here are clueless !!! It's like mass hysteria, how the majority are blind to combat being broken.
- people suggesting for "me" to take off armor for a challenge to get what I want....... It's not a matter of "me", its a matter of games are broken !
- Nothing wrong with liking zero damage, it's a matter of taste, but to deny ZERO DAMAGE is delusional...... I hate to isolate myself even more, but is most everyone under this delusion ?....... I'm really questioning most everyone here at this time.
*It's important* To watch this video to remove any question how easy mmoprgs are to the point their ALL BROKEN FOR COMBAT !
Please hummer me everyone, This is topical of combat ease..... It's not a special case, hundreds of videos can be found simply by typing making gold, farming regular game play.
Gather up 40....... Take no damage !!..... I'm vary aware how people feel about my wording,spelling and grammar......But "zero damage" is not good enough ?
ESO, FF14..... should i have to prove WoW and GW2..... I can't believe I have to go this far at all
Topical farming video... hundreds of them
Enjoyable ?.... Sure ! Damage ?.... None !
Damage None? First video you linked, second pull, guy almost died, how does that equal Damage None? You do realise that the red bar in the video is Health right? When that starts going down, that means he is taking damage. Guy in the video even states that he dies while doing those pulls.
As for asking people to hummer you, the word you are looking for is Humour.
It is a funny world we live in. We had Empires run by Emperors, we had Kingdoms run by Kings, now we have Countries...
Comments
What your talking about here is somewhat off topic, where my topic is focused on "combat difficulty" to bring the community together....... Your right in a way, I should have stated "combat", to focus the topic more.
Your talking about automatic pleasantries vs. grind. This is a different type of difficulty. In some ways, fast travel can get you to your group faster enhancing communities, but immersion pays a price.
This is left to the authors discretion of game design. Much like a writers style. The reader may or may not like it.
I have a great example,
It just so happens I stumbled on a revelation I never understood with Everquest 2 with all my years of play.
"Food and drink" drastically effects player health and strength more so than other games. It's a level of grid I never knew existed.
With knowing this crafting as a provisioner could be lucrative as you can deeply enhance your character, and be lucrative in selling your product because this grind portion is important to EQ2. It's a grind choice I like, you may not.
Design choice would a great new topic, unfortunately it doesn't pertain to this topic.
Survival is the Key
Those early games, in all their brutal punishment and so-called 'abuse' of the players actually gave the players something that instinctively motivated them to form the foundation of a strong societal framework within the confines of the game world. In layman's terms: those rats handing you your ass just outside the Freeport city gates actually made you actively seek out other players for protection. You would form groups for adventuring because the world was just to tough without them, and the cost of death was too high.My point is to say interdependence doesn't require difficult combat, it just requires you need another player to kill something. And my definition for difficult is mentally challenging. An MMO that requires you to kill something with others can be the most mentally unchallenging game in existence. The two things are not interchangeable.
a lot of players put in a huge amount of effort and thought, and planning and farming, into building a very sold solo character.
Remember when ddo was a pure subscription model only before it went free to play? It was such a good game back then. I thought Turbine did a good job at first. Then the community changed like often happens when you allow players to play for free. It became such a cesspool of monetization.
The world is in shambles, and can go from a phone call telling me I will be getting the worst form of chemotherapy imaginable, with a low success rate to live (maybe 5 years at best). Yet 10 minuets later here am telling everyone how it should be done..... I think I have a problem !
It was a "We need to do something or this game will get shut down"
It was in every sense of the word a desperation move to keep the game alive, and all the informed players knew that, and yes, it saved DDO from being closed down. Everyone also knew that.
As for the population, LOL, DDO was built for players that were into optimized builds and heavy farming, we already had a solid reputation for having a very toxic egotistical player base full of snobs... LOL, if you read some of the "Welcome to the New F2P DDO" ads, as that a whole new thing at the time, they would warn players about the population being full of, abrasive judgmental assholes veteran players.
So it was not like we were all holding hands and living in peace and harmony in some utopia before it went F2P, far from it.
I think of it as more of a mantra.
I think the biggest impact was the existing trolls we had that we banned, just made Free accounts and came back to post, so.. it more our own shit bobbing back up, then an influx of new shit.
Here's the thing... you cant be bothered to set aside the time and effort to do 40 person raids, which is all on you really.
Oh, you want the open world content to be much harder? Easy solution, fight on level content while undergeared, or wearing no gear at all, play a Warrior for extra challenge, no sissy kiting or letting pets tank for you.
Problem solved, right?
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
What he really wants is for everyone else to have to do difficult content because in his mind that will force a community to be created through need.
Nothing particularly original in that thought that gets trotted out at least 10 times a week in these forums. It's a glorification of clunky and primitive mechanics in early MMOs that coincided with a group of like-minded early MMO adoptees who formed good communities thanks to the second part, not the shitty designs we put up with.
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
It's not a matter of my intelligence, i'll never say I'm better than anyone, I'm extremely compassionate, caring and loving and would never look down on anyone.... I'm very God minded and LOVE everyone.
But it's like I'm the only one that sees the ham sandwich on the table...... I'm looking at a nice sandwich with people all around me and that sees nothing but a dish...... It's that bad !
I'll be getting "WTF" instead of saying I get your point.... This is a deeper level of delusional......
** I'm not sure I'll get a band for this, I don't think I should, my intentions are good, I don't mean any ill intentions, if so let it be, I may have to give up here anyway **
Zero damage..... Zero damage , its like 90% here are clueless !!!
It's like mass hysteria, how the majority are blind to combat being broken.
- people suggesting for "me" to take off armor for a challenge to get what I want....... It's not a matter of "me", its a matter of games are broken !
- Nothing wrong with liking zero damage, it's a matter of taste, but to deny ZERO DAMAGE is delusional...... I hate to isolate myself even more, but is most everyone under this delusion ?....... I'm really questioning most everyone here at this time.
*It's important*
To watch this video to remove any question how easy mmoprgs are to the point their ALL BROKEN FOR COMBAT !
Please hummer me everyone, This is topical of combat ease..... It's not a special case, hundreds of videos can be found simply by typing making gold, farming regular game play.
Gather up 40....... Take no damage !!..... I'm vary aware how people feel about my wording,spelling and grammar......But "zero damage" is not good enough ?
ESO, FF14..... should i have to prove WoW and GW2..... I can't believe I have to go this far at all
Topical farming video... hundreds of them
Enjoyable ?.... Sure !
Damage ?.... None !
First video you linked, second pull, guy almost died, how does that equal Damage None?
You do realise that the red bar in the video is Health right?
When that starts going down, that means he is taking damage.
Guy in the video even states that he dies while doing those pulls.
As for asking people to hummer you, the word you are looking for is Humour.
We had Empires run by Emperors, we had Kingdoms run by Kings, now we have Countries...
If you are holding out for the perfect game, the only game you play will be the waiting one.